The timing of bringing this up now is very interesting ;) as another tango fellow/neighbor of yours recently posted a video talking about how followers are most of the time better at this and that than most leaders who apparently don’t know what they are doing and spend most of their time guessing but get away with it because followers stay silent until they start leading 😂😂
Im too stupid to see a subtle camaceo sometimes. Many gyus I know told me at the next class that I rejected their cabaceo. Those were few of my favorite dancers 😭 please dont be too subtle. I have not the best eyes
I'm not sure where you guys get this idea that followers were once muscled around by the old tangueros. I learned from many of these "old" tangueros - Juan Carlos Copes, Osvaldo Zotto, Carlos Gavito, Facundo Posadas, etc were some of my first teachers and they never pushed me around "like a Neanderthal". If anything, Osvaldo Zotto was one of the smoothest leaders I've ever danced with. I was taught from these old masters that in the old days there were actually finger signals on the back to give a sign to the woman, and in many ways the lead was 100% gentler than what I get from people today. Unfortunately many leaders today haven't a clue about how to do dissociation in tango, which makes a lead very rough and through the arms.
Documentaries where old milongueros would say it. Tango is still evolving and how it was danced in the 1930s is very different to how it is done today.
There is a famous saying about men and tango: "If you really want a woman to love you, then you have to dance. And if you don't want to dance, then you're going to have to work extra hard to make a woman love you forever, and you will always run the risk that she will leave for at any second for a man who know how to tango." said by: Sherman Alexie
Two old Russian guys are talking. One says "life was better under the Soviet Union." The other is surprised and says "why do you say that?" The first responds "Because women smiled at me and my back didn't hurt."
If men aren't motivated by hot, attractive, women who want to hold them close, it's because there are easier ways to achieve that now. Don't comprehend the 'male bonding' thing, but then I'm an intovert who married the hot, attractive, wife with whom I dance (and dance with others). I guess it's also about age/maturity. When you've got responsibilities at home (collect the kids, feed them, do the repairs, prepare for work, etc) it's not so easy to get out and dance. So it's the 'young' solos and those where kids and responsibilities have flown - and maybe still couples. Go to any meeting and it's generally separated into males and females. Maybe not so much 'bonding' as male empowerment to join them?
You covered a lot here. I want to start with the idea of "average" dancer being different than a "desirable" dancer. There will always be people who are either naturally good at tango or those who have put thousands of hours of study in (or both) and those whose technical skills might not ever advance much. The "average" dancer is somewhere in between. But in the context of tango, I think the real questions for leaders are what constitutes basic competencies of the dance and how do those competencies translate to the partnership. To me, it boils down to these items in this order: safety, comfort, musicality, choreography. Even the newest leader can develop the awareness not to crash his partner into tables or other people. He can learn to hold his partner comfortably. He can listen to a LOT of music to understand layers and contrasts. Over time, he will accumulate choreography and technique. The ladies talk: "he's new but his embrace is lovely " that dude will get dances. I think over time, the best dancers are getting better. Teachers are getting better. Community standards are higher. In this context, what it means to be "average" his gotten more demanding. If a leader isn't keeping up with a rising standard, then they are falling behind. I can see this with some long time leaders who did learn a more shopping cart idea of leading, but tango 2.0 demands a more collaborative approach. As Marcelo Gutierrez would say, "we have to update our software".
In south like north Carolina I've noticed followers were strong and danced with any leader and made the dance fun for themselves and I think it's because they do dance with all types of leaders, the other benefit of this is it encourages leaders to not quit early on
Maybe it's harder because you've stopped learning and have just plateaued. Followers i know, keep paying for lessons and watching How To... videos so they are improving year on year, so of course, they are not satisfied with poor leaders, the better they get...
As someone who does both leading and following, LEADING is harder in the beginning due to the sheer magnitude of expections/skills needed to be a decent leader. You've instantly become an 8 limbed octopus and expected to coordinate all those limbs to music, nagivate the dance floor, listen to alien music, and plan ahead to do moves. Overall, I would describe leading as quite mental/intellectual and contemplative. Following is much harder at the intemdiate/advanced stage because most followers have been told "just follow" as beginners, and followers can fall into a "holiday mode" until their intemediate/advanced stage. As intermediates followers become aware of musicality, have to work out how to apply that while following, get introduced to trickier moves like off axis moves, and come up against the ticking timebomb of aging/physicality. Following is far more physical, I guarantee that if you measured distance moved or calories in a tanda, the follower would win hands down. Following I would describe as usually meditative but introducing musicality makes it a tricky affair because it requires thinking contemplative. To be a great follower, you have to be fit, flexible, and fast (leaders can get away with far less). Both roles are hard, but in completely different ways and stages.
It's also true that once you are a decent lead, you can practice with pretty much anyone and you set the skill level for the dance the way you want it to be. On the other hand, a follower has to accomodate to the skill level of the leader in question and cannot dictate it to a higher level. The leader can have a more linear progression after the beginner stage
it’s tough for below-average / average guys (skill/social skills), and tough for old / non conventionally attractive followers, so analogous to dating in a lot of ways.
If this is true, attractive dancers will more often dance togetther, less skilled dancers are stuck with themselves, and everything else falls outside is an exception.
@@marvinjlee59I’m talking more about unknown strangers dancing with one another or stepping into a new milonga with no one knowing you, in which case young attractive women will probably get the most dances. Guys will usually have to show they’re competent before a good follower will dance with them
@@youtuber42069-r being attractive goes a long way. They’ll dance with each other more often regardless of skill or experience. I’m talking about eight, nines, and tens.
Perhaps this can be traced back to the evolution of humans and their need for a sense of security. It is possible that the initial instinctive assumption regarding an unsatisfactory experience is the leader’s lack of capability.
@@mellowmonsoon278 It's a shocking revelation for guys weather they can admit to themselves or not, that they ain't as good they think compared to their women counterpart.
Two LA guys blinded by their status on the tango pyramid while sipping on each other's koolaide completely missed the obvious fact. Women venture into dance at a much higher rate than guys do, when guys would rather play video games or lift weights. You'd expect to almost always find yourself in a community with more and better women dancers than guys.
You kind of answered our question within your response. Women do venture into dance at a much higher rate which then places more expectations on the few men that stay in dance.
I've never gone to a restaurant for a cook, but if a restaurant doesn't employ good ones consistently, I'll probably stop going. IMO, in most cases the difference between the best DJ in your town and the best DJ in the world is usually smaller than the difference between the. best DJ in your town and the 3rd from the worst DJ in your town.
I think this falls on a spectrum. Not a black and white answer for most people. The DJ has a certain pull, I can't disagree with that. I have gone and supported milongas because the DJ was my personal friend. I have also had people come and support me when I was DJing. The answer gets even more complicated when it comes to festivals. If it is a festival for which I have to take time off of work, buy flight tickets, figure out accommodations - I will first check who else is going, then check what other activities I can do in that city, what is the general vibe of that event - all before I even think what's the lineup. That said, if I end up going, and a certain DJ seems to have done a bad job, I will make a mental note. Over time, if that DJ consistently underwhelms, I am not going to go to events where he or she is hired. At least for me personally, who the DJ is, does not determine if I am going to an event. Until such a time comes that I start having a bad time when they DJ. So, the DJ is more of an elimination factor rather than a selection factor for me. That is why it is important for organizers to hire fresh DJs for well-known events, to keep things fresh for the attendees, as opposed to recycling the same DJs again and again. That said, I do believe some folks would go solely go based on who the DJ is, and I have nothing against them.
let's say in order or importance: - - availability for holiday, -friends that go, - easy to reach location (car, direct flight), - someone told you it was "the best",...did I miss any?
I enjoyed your conversation. As an event organizer in Europe I can say that the choice of DJ is very important. I travel a lot to other events and always make a note of who has done a good job so I can bear them in mind for my own event. I agree with you about being spontanious as a DJ. I'm the same, I like to leave my choice of orchestera and tanda until the last possible moment. I also agree with you about those DJs who annonce which tanda is next and that it spoils that ideal of living in the moment. However, after many years of tango and many events I can honestly say that at least 80 percent of the dancers do not care about the music. They will keep on dancing even if it's bad. I can't dance to bad music choices. Please organizers, choose DJs because they are good and not because they invited you, or that you are their friend or whatever. To some of us, it makes all the difference.
I think in general, rejections are always going to be a possibility. I've been told the cabeceo was there so that the rejections were not obvious to everybody else in the room.
It's 2024. No one's going to 'lose face' by being rejected for a dance. Just move on. But maybe it's about age and objective and relationship status? Am I looking for that girl of my dreams? No. I've already got her. Is the dancefloor being cleared? Is there segregated seating? Is the environment conducive? No? Ah, that's why people are chatting at the bar, or they come and sit next to a prospective partner during the 'cortina', or they chat to my wife so I'll invite. If you're sat at tables with friends and partners, you're not going to use cabeceo, except in fun, to the person next to you. You might walk over to some other table to someone you know and invite them (verbally), or arrange some future tanda. OK, if cabeceo is the game, I'll play out of respect. If I was younger and solo, cabeceo might be exciting, but it isn't when finding a dance partner and mixing socially. I might have to nudge my wife if I notice someone trying cabeceo over in the dark, if she's not wearing her glasses. We're not in Argentina. It's not our culture. It's not necessary to dance AT, but maybe socially interesting. Get over it. If I get invited verbally (I am), I'll usually accept. It's not so easy for older generations to change 'traditional' invites, but got to hope this fixation with cabeceo/mirada just dies away as we get equality.
Verbal invitation can not only lead to a terrible rejection, but also a terrible acceptance. I love the subtle flirtation inherent in the cabaceo and wish other dance forms would use it.
American dancers especially dancers in LA exude awkwardness during the brief moment cabeceo is utilized. I guess in some places, you can’t teach finesse
Excellent talk, indeed. Long time ago I saw this short movie regarding navigation; it helped me alot. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mDJs-71f5dk.html . It is Murat, wonderfully explaining this link between the couples. At some point you also touched this subject.
cabaceo is great if the vast majority of the dancers are actively using it, but if a third or even a quarter of the leads are verbally asking and/or the followers have bad vision / only passively cabaceo then you have to maybe be verbal yourself or be overtly obvious with the cabaceos (which i think defeats the point)
I think incorporating the cabeceo in the practicas when rotating partners is a great idea. It's still not the same because everyone knows you are looking for that person, but at least get the eye contact right.
I know some dancers who sweat profusely from chronic pain, medical conditions, genetics, etc. and they wear athletic/jersey material t-shirts to practicas, then long-sleeve button-downs made from the same material to milongas. The fabric wicks away moisture and looks identical to a cotton dress shirt from far away. Main difference is the collared shirts are more form-fitting and usually from dancewear brands vs mainstream fashion
As a uni student, social dancing is making a comeback! But tango has a steep learning curve compared to salsa, swing, even Capoeira that it's proven the most difficult to retain dancers 😥 Line dancing and salsa are the most popular
I was recently at a festival where the DJ had the projector telling what the current song is, what number in the tanda, and what the next song was. It was so slick and I heard it was a program they had, anyone know what it might be?
As an organizer, I choose DJ's based on the way they DJ. A DJ that shows us, plugs in the computer, and dances every tanda will never be invited back. I hire DJ's that entertain the people/dancers at the event. Their job is to keep the dancers dancing.
@@KennethDBrown-zw7jx I see your point but sometimes can’t it be a bonus? Like the DJ can dance with some people not all the time. But sometimes being on the floor during the set, you get a better feel of what the crowd is feeling.
Don't let tango live in your head rent free. Obsessing over tango is a waste of your mental energy. Use it to enhance your life but don't let it drag you down with meaningless ponderings.
We need Nuevo. Once you get them hooked on the dance, and their technique improves, their music choices will expand. I chose Tango because I love the dance but suffered through the music. Now I love it, but it took getting to that level where I could express to it before I really appreciated it. I still won't put it on as background music, though. Everyone I ask in my WCS and ballroom community why they don't do Tango, and 9 out of 10 say it's the music. (They also say everyone's a snob, but that's another podcast.) So, you want to get more into traditional Tango? Get them first with Nuevo.
I love Nuevo music and in many cases, it's more emotional for me. Examples: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-cDx1u70kNro.html or this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-p_BiS4xKq3Q.html Or my favorite: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-28065euEtlA.html
Interesting discussion. I also still iTunes and never upgraded. I'm a dancer and DJ in Melbourne and still learning. I'm guilty of playing music I like to dance to, but I also watch the floor and see what dancers like dancing too. I'm slowly learning to add modern tango bands into the night. I find it difficult when trying to cater for events where there's speeches and having to bring the energy back up. Food for though for DJing on my part and thanks for this video.
Also, what are your thoughts on mixing orchestras in a tanda? I only do it for vals and milonga tandas, mind you, and if the music connects/makes sense/fits with one another.
@new2melbtango I think it can be done, but I prefer not to mix. It sucks because sometimes there's an orchestra who is a 1 hit wonder. But honestly when I do mix orchestras I get scared because I'm not sure how people will react
To me, who is DJing at the milonga is super important. Djs who can’t build the energy and keep it through the night are the worst ones. They kill the party. I come there to dance not to sleep. I can’t dance well and give it 100% if I am not inspired by the music. And, believe me, I do know the list of DJs when I pick my marathon/ festival. I should like at least 3 out of 5. Otherwise, I am not going.
I agree, but I think we are talking about the caliber of djs. Like generally I agree you don't need a mega star dj. You just need someone who doesn't screw up.
