Yep the game is a lot deeper than one might think ^^ Thanks btw! :D

Thank you so much, appreciate it ^^ I started getting into Ark Nova lately so now I also know the feeling of losing a lot on BGA xD

In the video, I think I say that this is fine. Like.. not great not bad. But average. The math on this exact problem (EE Fish Viron) has actually been done a few times already. If you didn't notice, in the video a guy named Rus also did math on this (you can see it in the video at 23:27) But pretty much every time Fish EE Viron has been brought up the conclusion was pretty much this: For the average player this is good value. For the top players who are better at converting engine into VP this is slightly underwhelming. But it's pretty close actually. If we are talking penguins instead of fish which means you don't have to take your own plant prod, then it's above average. Or if you are lucky enoguh to steal Ecolines plant prod. then this is really good value but due to turn order you can only target yourself, other corps or other preludes who reveals before you in turn order so low chance of this. Usually you have to take your own plant prod. This is why Penguins is a better combo. A few factors that is hard to math out here: Firstly it has so value to just have a place where you can dump random animals worth 1 vp all game and also the viron ability could come in clutch with another card a few times during the game. So this should not be underestimated either. You could also make the argument that straight up VP strats like this one are more suited for game with fewer generations as the preludes of the other players will be more engine heavy meaning they will overtake you in 11 generations or something. So with this mindset, the tempo nerds who are super good at ending the game early might also want this. For the same reason I would agree with your assessment that this combo is better in 5-player games as these are shorter in terms of generations. Basically it's hard to completely math yourself out of this one, but the general the conclusion is that EE Viron Fish is pretty average. But answers may vary depending on which of the top players you ask. Personally I would say that this is average, but boring as hell as I enjoy making lategame engines so spending a prelude on this is not what I want xD Btw nice job on the math damn ^^ Looks awesome but I would say that this combo is worth more than 20 VP in a 10 gen game for the reasons mentioned above and also Fish costs 12 gold, not 9 as we should factor in the cost of 3 to buy the card to begin with. In any case the other nerds are more qualified (and more motivated) to sink their teeth into this. Copy paste this into HodgePodge's discord if you got access. This stuff is catnip to these poeple, they would love to cruch all of this math for much more satisfyingly than me ^^ If you are lucky, one of them have their math on this saved somewhere and can show you.

xD

Yea TR is really hard to value as it consist of 2 fluent components (M€-prod and VP) and the value of these also changes throughout the game. But few weeks after releasing this I realized the same as you are saying here. TR are indeed slightly better in the earlygame and slightly worse in the lategame as the M€-component is worth nothing towards the end. So you are right and I was wrong here. But TR doesn't drop that much in the lategame as the VP component becomes worth more as the game progresses. Sooner of later I'll make an ep. about what everything is worth where I clean up this bit as I feel like this graph is slightly wrong. At this moment it feels like TR should start at 8 and drop to 7 or 6 near the end of the game. That being said, what you're asking about is super nerd stuff. The observation you made is pretty deep so I imagin youre one of the better players. But for the average player this graph is good enoguh and for the average player the notion that a TR = 8 all throughout the game is all you need to know ;)

Let me guess. Your other channel that got deleted was called "Elon Musk"? ^^

​@@BonelessDotaActually, it was called Svetlana Boyarchuk

Uuuhh sounds juicy. Me greedy greasy heart is salivating. Did you end up full Godmode?

@@BonelessDota Not really, I didn't get much more Card Draw, and I was sitting on 85 income in Gen 75, and since it is a friendly game where I just rolled so much ahead and we are playing async, I didn't want to drag it out and not build my Terraforming cards then, so I just unloaded after they checked out of the round. Where I could have just kept the cards and the money and hoped for better cards the next generations after. So just to push for end so we can take another game soon. :) But if it was any other game I would just have kept the cards, and waited for more greed to show up. :D

@@mikeditlevsen I chuckled cuz you said "didnt wanna drag it out" and you also said "gen 75" xD But yea gotcha, I've been in that situation before where you feel like you should close the game to be nice even thought you really want an extra generation.

​@@BonelessDota haha yeah.. should just have been gen 7.. :D sometimes fat fingers type hit more than it should. :D :D

@@mikeditlevsen yea I figured xD

xD Yea I love this line. I remembered that I had stolen this line from somewhere but couldn't remember from where and just now it hits me that the line was also used in a Hollow Knight video my mossbag called "the mostly complete lore of Hollow Knight".

Appreciate it cheers <3

Thanks man, comments like these is why I put effort into making these <3

NIce! I just started playing Ark Nova as well. Around 1800 elo was the highest I got this season. Perhaps I will give it another try next season. Really hard to get really good at it for some reason but a fun game for sure ^^ The world is big enough for both games imo ;) Ark Nova is great as it got small hand size as opposed to TM where the hand size can get out of hand sometimes (pun intended). However, it feels like the 3 base conservation projects in the beginning of the game are slightly too strong. Seems to me the best strategy is to mindlessly persue those whenever possible. However so many other cool things you can pull off. Also even after 100 games I still can't play my dumb tiger or something due to some weird 2 water requirement and so on. The requirements are hard to understand sometimes and I keep messing it up. Other than that, great game xD Mars is just as deep and a great engine builder. It's a bit more mathy compared to Ark Nova but still got room for all these creative plays and strats. Usually people who love Ark Nova will also love TM. I hear that Earth is the next good engine builder game we should check out ^^

If you mean the solo mode, then yea it's good training. But lacking the element of a decent opponent of course and not milestones and so on. How you end the game depends on which expansions you play with. Slightly tweeks solo mode with the expansions. My feeling is that it all helps. Closing the game fast is nice (especially the high level players enjoy this strategy). But trying to get the points within 12 generation or whatever it is is also good practice. Haven't played solo mode since 5 years ago, but I enjoyed it quite a bit. Best of luck ^^

Yea I may have overdone it lol ^^ 23 videos so far and 20 more coming once I stop being lazy. Idk why I'm doing this to myself tbh...

I talk about colonies a little bit. I should probably add that the super good players don't rate Luna as highly as they are more into rushing and ending the game quickly. But for the average player these tips (11 + 12) should be great :D Here is a link: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KGBisFViWQM.html&ab_channel=BonelessDota

Thank you so much <3 appreciate it.

I quickly looked through the video and I'm sorry but could't find when I was looking at Tufted Titmouse. But I guess I tend to have max eggs or even an overflow of eggs in some of these God games, so that's why I calculate like that. But ofc you're right if you got dont have max eggs it's not quite as good as I made it out to be. The point I was trying to make is that mostly it's just good to play birds like these as they sort of don't cost an action to play as you can play +1 bird after. So in most game I feel like you just wanna play it as the upside is much greater than the downside. The cost of 2 eggs = the 2 points on the card anyways, so really the cost is just 1 food. ^^ Good card is all I'm saying. But the way you math it out is perhaps a more fair way to think about it.

Thanks for the reply! You start talking about that play at 23:21, the Tufted Titmouse appears shortly after and at 24:48 you value the double bird play with "an extra 3-5 points". I fail to see how that card could have given you 5 extra points (or really any points other than those for extra laid eggs which is max. 3 if you literally can't lay them anywhere else). But of course you are absolutely right that having the extra bird is almost always better even if the cost is as high as the victory points gain. I guess the only reason to not play the Tufted Titmouse is if you can use the slot in the forest for a better/ higher points bird (assuming you have enough turns and food of course).

@@mewtwo87 Tufted titmouse has room for 3 eggs and the card itself comes with 2 points (just looked it up). So I guess this is how it could give +5 points IF the +1 food is no issue and you have an excess of eggs by the end of the game but like you said, in this game I wasn't overflowing with eggs. I take it your point is that if you have too many emtpy egg spots (like in this game) then it would maybe give 0 points (2 vp minus 2 eggs it cost to play). In this game it would just be 1 ressource out the window. So you have a point there. But then again, you know, there are mission cards and end-of-round goals so I would probably always play cards like Titmouse almost every time if I have the food to spare. Especially in the forest. The river birds tend to score higher than the forest birds (Roseate swoonbill is 2 points more than Bell's Vireo and so on). So it would be highly unlikely that tufted titmouse is ever a bad play imo. This is the case for vanilla at least. With expansions there are a few cards that allows for a VP-generating forest engine so in that case Titmouse is perhaps not good. But from what I've seen and tried it's usually some insane tuck-engine in the river that scores a lot of points if you play with expansions. Little rusty on the expansions, haven't played them a lot. ^^

Yea it's dead. Sadly. Called it though, they just love reworking Dazzle ^^ hopefully they will buff him again soon. Boring bad hero atm.

Cheers, appreciate it :D You might be late to the party but that's maybe fine as I'm taking a long ass time to finish this project. I have maybe 8 more videos to go before this strategy guide is complete + some gameplay should be coming up sooner or later. So you are not the only one who is late ^^

@@BonelessDota Glad I subbed then! I'll keep an eye out!

yep they are. Did I say the opposite? I guess what I meant was that discount cards excel when you setting up your entire game to go for the greedy lategame engine. Discount cards can also give you value enough to justify playing them in rush-games sometimes but they are not seen so much in rush games. Generally they are better for greedy engine lategame games. In any case they are ofc, like you said, better if you play them early. ^^

Oh yea good point! ^^

Thank you so much :D yea Terraforming Mars is a great game to analyse. Yea I'm new to the party. Channels like yours have probably been breaking down the game for years ^^

@@BonelessDota haha since last year so about the same as you, but i'm also a fan of math and 15 gen engine games XD

@@marsuniversity-tm I like you already. xD 15 gen games are indeed the best. The tempo nerds on the discord channel who prefers shorter games are WRONG!

Yea I feel slightly ashamed xD I guess I was nervous and brain simply not working this game. Calculation.exe not found.

I used to think that Advanced Alloys is insanely good yea, but after I've begun playing with the tempo nerds in high Elo games on the Mars app I've realized that in fast tempo games you may not have steel and titanium prod. and you may not have time for luxury cards such as Advanced Alloys. So it's not an auto keep in rush games. In some rush games it's still worth it but mostly this card shines in engine setups where I keep it almost always. It doesn't take a lot of steel or titanium for this card to pay for itself and the Science tag has even more value in engine setups. Overall good card for sure.

The discord is hodgepodge. I believe he has a youtube channel so you can ask him there. Pretty sure he don't mind people joining but not 100% sure so go ask him ^^

Thanks appreciate it. Comments like these is why I make these videos :) cheers!

xD Trolling is an underrated artform these days.

I can't play it as the card is max -12 temperature I believe.

Thank you so much!! 133 is a great score gj ^^ In vanilla, raven + killdeer is the best way. If you play with the EU expansion you can also get a ton of points with a tucking strat in the river. Good point about playing vs. hard AI. Never thought about that. Also these days, to achieve even higher scores, people play all the seats themselves in order to give yourself a lot of free stuff. Haven't tried it myself as I retired from Wingspan before that became a thing + it feels a little bit like cheating for me ;) But great for getting really high scores.

Generally it's not worth it unless you have a huge titanium engine. Most of the guys think it's bad but sometimes I play it if I have a greedy setup. If you are rushing you won't have time to play stuff like this. Mostly the card is not good but sometimes it's okay to play it.

No sorry. I'm already too slow when it comes creating and releasing videos. No time for coaching sorry ^^

@@BonelessDota Hi, I have an idea. What if you were to coach me 1 game, 3P match. And we recorded it? With webcam and evertything. So there you would have some content for teaching a 3P match, share your thoughts and so on. Because IMO the strategy choice between greedy and TR is very difficult choice in 3p match.

Im honered and it could make for good content. But unfortunately, these days, I'm struggling to find time and energy to finish the rest of the videos to complete the guide so adding more videos to the mix is not a good idea. My plate is simply full. Nice idea though :)@@nilspils5223

Generally no. But would depend on your hand.

If you are lucky enoguh to get a bunch of discount + card draw then yes this is much stronger than cash prod. But of course you need a little cash prod also to get the ball going. But generally speaking if you have a greedy engine setup you want to get card-draw + cash prod. + discounts and if you are rushing you want you want to get heat prod + raw TR.

Cheers ^^ Well firstly, we kinda measure stuff in value of Megacredits (M€) so cant answer what 1 M€ is worth. If you mean how much is a M€-production worth, then it's worth around 5 M€ in the first generation and declining throughout the game to being worth nothing in the last generation. I plan on making an entire video where I detail what everything is worth, but with my current slow pace that likely won't be out until March next yea or something. I talk a little about this in the first video on the playlist (20 tips to help you win) in the very first tip. In 3-4 player games, generally TR-strats are a little stronger. So my best advice is to go for heat-prod and raw TR but it's of course still fine to build a little engine in the first few generations. Ultimately you just have to play the hand you've been given :)

Wow thanks for quick reply! Yes i ment cash production :) also I find it hard to know how many cards to keep every new gen, I guess its about how good ur engine is and what cards u plan to play this / next gen. I often want to keep more than I can afford... what I find challening about the greedy strat is that u end up with so many cards, hard to know what to play in the correct order... also let me put up one scenario for you. Say u dont have any good engine cards, only this card that is a jovian amplifer with +2 cash/titanium(IO mining). So say u pick this. And when u start the round, one of ur enemies have the corporarions that give +1 cash production everytime a jovian tag is played. Would u still play this card or not?

@@nilspils5223 Playing IO Mining Industries vs. Saturn Systems does not feel good no. But depends on your hand again. Perhaps you start with a bunch of Titanim from preludes or something. Or perhaps you have no other engine building cards. How many cards to keep, here is a good rule of thumb. If you have a huge engine you want to keep more cards. If you are rushing and have a smaller engine you whould keep fewer cards. And if you have lots of card-draw but not a great engine you also keep fewer cards in the research phase as you will get cards to play from your card-draw cards. But of course depends on the cards. Some cards are just too good not to keep.

The rules say you have to place greeneries next to a tile that you own. So if you place your first tile in a suboptimal location you will need a new tile that may be placed anywhere (portal) which enables you to place your greeneries next to your new tile to get better placement bonuses (ocean reabates, plants and so on). Most prefer the word "teleport" but it's the same thing.

You're welcome :) Thank you.

LOL never realized that xD

Floaters are a new type of ressource to put on top of your cards like Animals or Microbes. Works the same way pretty much. Floaters was introduced in the Venus Next expansion so you can find a Venus Next review to learn more about Floaters :)

You are most welcome. Sometime in 2024 I will muster the energy and time to finish the whole thing :)

I will, but not for a while im afraid. Real life is demanding these days, I think that video will be ready maybe february. Possibly later. Sorry for the delay :)

Thanks and good luck!! :D

I tried it, got level 6 at 4 mins, gg ez

@@maltebergman5242 Good job! Haven't tried Enigma jungle in Ages. But I assumed it would be slower now. Lvl 6 in 4 mins is really good! Which camps you use?

The guy below (maltebergman) just killed it with lvl 6 in 4 mins apparently, so it would seem Enigma jungle is still legit. Best of luck ^^

@@BonelessDota haha just memeing. Watched for nostalgia 😜

@@BonelessDota Yeah sorry man, just kidding xD We were talking about old dotes and we found your video

To be fair some of these clips are me playing offlane Dazzle. But if you are having a good start on 4 or 5 Dazzle I might still start with Midas, BoT like I did in these clips. You have a lot of down time on support Dazzle so you can stay in base a lot to refresh Midas CD. But only go Midas (and maybe even BoT) on support Dazzle if you're having a good start and even then it is questionable you can get away that much greed in high skill games ^^ Lots of fun though!

Agreed. In most games it's good but to be fair, if you never find affordable energy prod, this card falls flat sometimes. But you do, it's incredible.