Alpha Labs - Do speaker cables matter? We measured five of them! 

alpha-audio.net/background/the-mutual-influence-of-speakers-amplifiers-and-cables/ The impact remains. The characteristics of the cable as well.

"No one, absolutely no one can hear such a small difference of 0.3 dB while listening music. " That is a bold statement.

@@TheAlphaAudio Yes, and it comes from doctor of medicine. The smallest change we can hear is about 3 dB. And that's scientific fact. Sorry!

@@crodoc69 are you kidding me? 3dB is twice the pressure. That is a huge difference. Why do you think mastering engineers work with equalizers as precise as 0.1dB? Anyway. If you don't believe it... Fine. I don't sell stuff. I just investigate.

@@TheAlphaAudio No, I don't. Thas simply physiology of human ear. Sure, in audiophile world you can find different statements but there are all kind of statements in that world. Maybe well trained listener in ideal condition can hear 2db, but 0.3 no way. Hearing isn't linear function. It is exponential. To answer your second question. For the same reason they use speakers with frequency up to 35KHz that is way beyond human hearing.

@crodoc69 When I do mastering, in post-production, I can hear at least 1db of difference. 3db is huge !

@@noreverse1152 we have tests with lamp wire as well. Check out website.

Yes, inductors block high frequencies, so by coiling the cables he is blocking the higher frequencies in the unshielded cables which would explain the high frequency drop off in some cables. That is of course assuming the cables with the highest drop off were unshielded cables.

Coils that loose will not act as inductors through air.

Just commented this before seeing yours. The cables with the highest apparent effect were laid in near perfect coils. Hard to take a "lab test" seriously with such a fundamental and clear flaw.

Well what would be according to you the impact on response of 3 small loops in the cables?

That's similar to what I was thinking. He's talking about a difference between cables on the order of tenths of dB's, while only having taken a single measurement of each cable. We don't even know if the results are reproducible, let alone accurate enough to say with any confidence that there is a difference. Edit: Oh and another thing I noticed, several cables are tested with part of their length coiled up on the desk. I wouldn't be surprised if that also affected results.

​@@MicraHakkinen Yes, when you lay or wrap non-shielded cables into a circle or loop, it essentially creates a wire inductor coil or "inductive loop" to at least SOME extent. And we all know how inductors are used and what they do in multi-way loudspeaker systems, right? In addition, some of the speaker cables were shown laying across or on top of other coiled cables, while others were not. :/ The best option would have been to "unwrap" and fully extend each cable and route them all consistently along the same path as much as possible, and also AWAY from any other electronic equipment and/or ferrous metal surfaces. If you can not extend the cables so that there are no coils or loops, the best practice is to lay them in a large figure-of-eight pattern like the infinity symbol... ∞ with the signal input and output ends of the cable entering and exiting at opposite ends. Just one real-world example: We always MUST do this with the "head" or "feeder" cable for our 1k to 20k Arri HMI Fresnel and PAR film/video/photographic lighting fixtures, especially in hot weather and/or full sun, because the lamp head will continuously shut down due to the inductive loop that is created if the cables are simply coiled in a circle like a garden water hose. The wire coil itself creates the "steady state" inductor, but as the coil heats up over time it further changes the parameters of the coil. I've seen variances even in "straight" wiring due to whether or not the overhead fluorescent ceiling lighting fixture was turned on or off (EMI/RFI from the magnetic or electronic fluorescent ballast interacting with the cable). This can also happen when nearby electric motors are or are not running...from a nearby fan or A/C blower, etc. Also, as mentioned, the parameters of the loudspeaker or individual drivers (and potentially the amplifier) will change even due to mild temperature variations of the voice coil and magnetic motor system as it is powered and in-use (heating up) vs. resting with no signal (cooling down) for a given period of time...easily enough to cause these very minute differences. Anybody who has tested loudspeaker driver parameters would understand this. IMPO, there are simply not enough controls in the way these tests were performed to eliminate potential external variables...especially such minute differences. To see if we (you) can actually hear and discern the effects of non-audible upper harmonics on the audible spectrum, simply play multi-tone sine waves or pink noise with and without an additional >20kHz 2nd and then 3rd harmonic signal component added to the multi-tone.

So bigger is better ? i use 10 AWG all through my system, seems to sound fantastic to me,any thoughts? Thanx.

Thanks man!

@@uribar-ner5055 i agree. All is in our brain. You just replied to someone who studied brainknowledge.

@@rdh67dh :-)

@@uribar-ner5055 ? We just showed there are actually differences. Also... there are still a lot of things to discover... or do you believe we know all there is to know about everything?

@@uribar-ner5055 this is not the channel to discuss. I'm very aware about our brainworking, so I am aware. The brains can even let you imagine there is a killervirus when in reality there isn't. I also be aware about the first 8 years of our life being a delta for us. I leave it with this and I don't like your cocky presuming attitude. Have a nice day.

You're supposed to hook them up to your speakers, not your ears. :P

And you should only rely on your own observations...!

0,25 db of eq at 2,75khz can be audible. If we're talking about frequency response with a speaker load, 0,5db vs 0,25db is the difference between a decend enough amp and a good amp. It's hard to hear yes but it's audible. It can take some of the edge of the upper midrange. An area where alot of speakers have a hump in the inroom response. Edit: I would never use a cable as an eq measure btw.

Normally, a variation of 3 dB is required to be noticeable..25 no way.

@@chuckmaddison2924 0.25 dB is hard and I would have a hard time in an abx test but 1 db is not even hard to notice in broad band eq abx test. 3 dB is a doubling in energy. Everyone with "normal" hearing should be able to pick that up in no time.

Not to mention the "worst cables " were laid in coils creating inductors.

Yup

@@Douglas_Blake_579 no I didn't

@@Douglas_Blake_579 it's a measurable difference. That will depend on the system and listener.

@@Douglas_Blake_579 look tbh I don't even care if it measured identical. The audible differences on my system (very very top end so can't speak for other systems) is absolutely night and day on cable differences.

@@Douglas_Blake_579 The difference is because this is the cable, amplifier and speaker interacting across the impedance behaviour of a speaker, as you would in the real world when listening to music.

The sound is not measured, the speaker cables are plugged into a plug which is connected to the dScope, which in turn is plugged into the binding posts of the speaker. See 3:25. So, the response curve of the current flowing through the speakers cable is measured. The resistance is the impedance behaviour from the speaker as the sound is played through the amplifier to the speaker.

@@jmtennapel Let's draw the system from the amplifier's side. The speaker is connected, and to the speaker, the analyzer is connected. This is a general parallel connection, the amplifier drives both the speaker and the analyzer. For a parallel connection, voltages are always equal (simplified), so the voltage measured on the speaker and on the analyzer are always the same. This would be the same if the analyzer would output some voltage. Both the speaker and the amplifier could see that change. This is also true for the speaker, if that created some electricity, it would drive both the amp and the analyzer. Uh-oh, it does create electricity! Speakers are backwards microphones (microphones are literally measured by driving one mic as a speaker), although not very effective, but measurable microphones. The voltage that is created that way, by the noise and speech, is what was measured here.

The input impedance of the Prism dScope is 100kOhm. The speaker is 8 Ohm nominal. I don't see the issue.

@@TheAlphaAudio And a multimeter is 1-10 MOhm yet still measures the same voltage. Resistance is only a factor in serial connections, those are voltage dividers. Parallels divide the current, this is why we use such high resistances, to not burn the analyzers. The issue is that this system is not closed, and atmospheric effects (like the sound of fans and speech) influence it through the speaker. What the driver is inducing is nothing coming from the cable (we're talking about an LTI system here, if they measure the same on a resistor, they can't meaningfully affect a speaker), but what the sound in the room added to its movement - this can meaningfully change the suppression pattern that ultimately resulted in those frequency responses.

@@SpamMaster57 ok

Welcome. I don't have a test on connectors planned at the moment. Not sure that really makes a difference to be honest.

@@TheAlphaAudio I know this was just a test to confirm that frequency response is effected by cables. And that's fantastic, thank you. This now gives us insight how this has been a tweak. Idk answers lead to more questions. I can't help but to wonder what solid copper wire vs stranded vs flat looks like on the scope of yours or why some consider 99.9% silver sounds bright but 99.999 silver doesn't was all the countless hours and dollars spent on eq via cables ? As for connectors idk why does gold sound warmer and rodium not so much ? Maybe 12awg lamp wire has the flattest response but someone preferred silver 1k silver plated copper cable that tilted up from 10k 1 db and that's why it sounded better to them when they could have saved the 1k and used eq and lamp cord....sorry my brain went crazy after seeing this video... 😂

I don't know where you have 65 dB background noise, but our listening room is around 30dB. That is a leaf falling... and that is our target audience. Also: a human has far more sensitive hearing than you might think...

The sound coming from the speakers is not measured ....

@@jmtennapel indeed... we measure electrically. Not sonicly.

SO you are claiming that measuring the sound straight from cable as frequency response makes differences? ok.... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Gf3Yez8WTz4.html&ab_channel=AudioScienceReview

We did. Check our website.

Shame the test was seriously flawed. Cables with worst results were coiled on the desk. Fail

Yeah. I noticed as well. I blocked his account already.

Yes. We did... results were the same.

It is unfortunate you did not show this in the test because natural variations in measurement is also my first question. It would also allow you to judge the impact of coils/layout.@@TheAlphaAudio

Yes. Maybe I will... the idea was 'simple videos'. With Screen Capture it will require more editing. But I get your point.

@@Douglas_Blake_579 yes... the amount of work and editing involved.

@@Douglas_Blake_579 Do I hear a volunteer editor?

@@Douglas_Blake_579 do you see all the measuring equipment standing there? Did you notice the two camera angles? The wireless mics... I think it is pretty obvious we invest in our audience. There is one thing that is not for sale though: time. I have a family and a wife and son i also like to see...

We recently tested 32 interlinks and 32 speaker cables. Check our website.

I don't think I can measure that.

Powered speakers are for most customers a better idea, but when you talk to the manufacturers of those powered speakers, they will all tell you the wire inside their speakers matters as well.

I agree with the powered speakers... definately technically a better solution.

I disagree. But that is not relevant. We will be doing more research to indicate the difference.

Wow, someone who actually has musical ears,sometimes the difference is huge, for example if you have dark sounding speakers try silver plated cables and the sound will open up, it will sound somewhat brighter

@@seephor ok

Ok

Yes... you can hear that. And besides that: there is more in life than freq response.

@@TheAlphaAudio You can't hear it at all, prove that statement! It is impossible. Do double-blind tests with those cables and tell me. Measure a cheap normal cable and you'll tell me. It is not valid to say that 0.3 dB is perceived, it is not fair.

@@MiguelAngelRacero we already did blind tests. You are welcome to visit us... I can show it. No problem.

@@TheAlphaAudio Please tell me where I can see those tests.

The speaker terminals of the speaker are connected to the analyzer. It is not tested with a microphone. That would also be impossible with all the noise in the room.

We will make more videos like this. We are developing a special device to measure interlinks for example. A 25 KHz tone has harmonics. For example there is also energy around 12,5 KHz, 50 KHz... Multiples or for example half of the frequency.

thanks! I still don't understand the harmonics thing, but I will ask uncle goooogle and read up. You and your friends are really doing some unique work. I have only just recently approached the point with my HIFI that cable and interconnects influence the sound in an audible way, so this is very timely. thanks again! @@TheAlphaAudio

Check our tests and research on our website. www.alpha-audio.net.

@@TheAlphaAudio I just did. Reviewed a 289 euro, 1 meter power cable the gives "a big stereo image" and "solid sound balance". For a 1 meter power cable. Ok, Ive read enough. This is just scamming.

@@buzzcrushtrendkill okay. Have a great day.

The visible effect seen on the screen results in slightly different Resistance of the cables. In other words, slightly thicker or thinner copper. You can see two areas,, where the lines are very close. Both unter 100 Hz. These are impedance maxima of the used speaker. At these points, the Impedance of the speaker is much higher as elsewhere (maybe 40 ohms), and so the current and the voltage drop is lower. All in all a flyspeck. ;)

Thanks!

@@uribar-ner5055 well... our task it not to save the industry, buy to offer some insight in what does and doesnt work. But hey... it this saves some hard working people... i am glad we can help. :-).

​@@TheAlphaAudio Can you try to measure same, but with microphone? Finally, important is, does this difference audible or not.

@@sergeiu8101 we can try

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 Audiophiles do not like controlled blind testing. ;) They hate it.

You can check more in the full review I mentioned in the description.

@@TheAlphaAudio great, thank you!

I dont have one

Yes

That's easy: turn the humidity device off, measure the humidity level listen. Turn it on, measure the humidity level, listen. Test finished. Now, don't bother us ever again with your futile attempt to 'be funny', go troll somewhere else.

Yes

That is not going to work in a normal room and A/D conversion. Every file will be different. Even with the same cable. This measurement shows there are differences... i can repeat this test and get exactly the same result...

@@TheAlphaAudio these measurements, are they audible.

@@r423sdex yes

Would you put your house on it ? I will be doing the cable change. You can do the easy part !

@@r423sdex yes.

It is not the material. It is the geometry and the way the materials are created and processed that makes the big difference.

We have measured up to 2.5dB with some cables now... Cables make a difference. And it is not only freq response. It is also timing and noise.

I did... you get a flat response with all cables. You probably knew that. But it's useless, because a speaker is not a flat impedance, nor a static load.

@@TheAlphaAudio Yes, I knew, I wanted to tell you that this is the problem with the crossover. If you test a speaker, for example, only one woofer, the impedance will be very flat. Crossovers of the second degree and above cause this problem

@@aminbjt5843 But the interaction with the crossover doesn't matter in this case. I am measuring the differences between the cables... it is in that sense a relative measurement... it's about the differences between A and B... and that is what you will hear in the end anyway...

@@TheAlphaAudio What is a crossover? The combination of inductor and capacitor is used to separate high, low and mid frequencies The combination of inductor and capacitor in two and higher order designs causes resonance at a specific frequency And this causes the input impedance to drop drastically in these frequencies. Therefore, it causes more current in the cable. Also, the frequency response fluctuates If you modify the crossover, you will no longer need expensive cables

@@aminbjt5843 if... but that is not the reality. I have an article online with measurements on multiple speakers with multiple amplifiers and multiple cables... the characteristics of the cables remain... so... cables matter... in the real world. Can you create a system that is immune to cables... sure... probably.

Yeah... i can't think of better evidence than what I demonstrated...

Of course...

True. But my goal was to prove the difference.

True, but with these test we can now see why one might prefer a particular cable over another in there system.

Bullshit, you will always be biased. Therefore when you here something different the outcome is already set. Using your hearing can be done but you must be totally in the dark about what you are listening at. So a controlled test which is never done correctly at any store or show.

NOT true. The aural [and visual] systems post process the signals. At a critiacal level then, you literally cannot believe your ears/eyes. Let us all accept and get over this and move on.

Sadly most people are tone deaf. Any person that says that there’s no audible difference between two different cables are tone deaf, I’m not even saying that the more expensive sounds better, but they sound different for sure

We measured electrically. Not acoustically.

@@TheAlphaAudio I see, thanks for the reply.

Ok