I’m a Christian, but refuse to go to church anymore. My last straw was when I skipped a few Sunday’s in the praise band because my husband and I had a a placement of 3 babies as foster parents. We were trying to adjust to getting them all ready. The leader told me “I guess you just don’t care about or love God the way you say” that was 8 years ago and I’ve never stepped foot in a church again.
I think this shows how some churches aren't there to help and support their parishioners, but the parishioners are there to fund and support the church. A good pastor/vicar/priest whatever would have noticed your absence and got in touch to see if there was anything up they could help with. If you didn't want or need their direct involvement, they could ask if you'd like a prayer said inj church, or just a mention, or whatever. That at least was the expectation when I was a kid going to church. It breaks down when the congregation gets so big that they're just numbers to the pastor.
@@ziploc2000 Exactly, the church is there to serve it's people, they are essentially a charity organization that's why they are tax free. To serve and minister to their parishioners, but too many are just businesses and run like it's the people who are just there for the church not the other way around. modern churches are just crappy religious sellers that don't resemble anything of what they were. At least the mega churches .
My family experienced similar problems. The church would not let my brother lead worship because his girlfriend was living with our family when she didn’t have a stable place to stay. They kicked him off because they weren’t married?? So ridiculous how out of wack their priorities can be. You were doing something incredibly generous by opening your home and instead of celebrating that, all they could think about were themselves 🤦🏼♀️
That is so awful. As a church leader my response had you turned up would be 'do you think you should be here' or 'how can we best support you' / 'how long a break do you need or want'. I am so sorry your ministry as a safe space for Foster children was so dismissed.
For all who are tittering on the edge of leaving the church… do it. You will feel so free from the pressure. I grew up Catholic, then became a “reborn” Christian at an AoG church. I would talk to God out loud and judge if others weren’t doing the same. I am so ashamed on how I behaved back then. Feels great to be my own person now! I thought that God would “punish” me for leaving, and yet…nothing has changed.
@@vega1349depends on who you are. My morals and identity were deeply rooted in Catholicism. I said no sex before marriage because of doctrine, I said no homosexuality because of doctrine, etc. After years of extreme questioning, I finally decided I’m not Catholic. And once I decided that, all those things that I did very fervently and defended just went away. One of the main reasons deconstruction was hard for me was because I knew my moral framework would be gone if I left.
I don't know, I think something did change. At least from your comment it sounds like things are different for the better! I've noticed people tend to not see positive change as a "true change", but rather that negative outcomes are a "true change". Things are different for you since leaving a church or organized faith for the better; celebrate that!
At my former nondenominational church, I used to run live audio mixing and often the lyric powerpoints as well for both the high school and college groups. I was as Christian as I could have been. I volunteered every week, usually multiple days. My own personal goal was to reduce distractions. My goal was to be invisible. I didn't want any audio feedback, no delayed lyrics on screen, the band sounded good, etc. I viewed this as a way to allow others to connect more easily with god and the message. I got upset when people joined the worship team, but couldn't sing or play instruments well. I would even turn down certain backup vocals at times to try to save the set, while keeping the singers' monitors loud enough they could hear themselves. I was also very controlling of the powerpoints, because improper spacing, small fonts, or typos irritated me so much. I thought to myself, if we can't take the time and effort to give our best, that we were poorly representing god. And if no one else met my standard, that I had no choice but to step in and help. In short, I used my perfectionism and dedication to help create the best experience I could for the audience. I became good at it and got plenty of verbal praise for my efforts. Only now that I'm secular do I realize how much manipulation I was participating in. I didn't think I was manipulating people, but I was. And in turn I was being manipulated. I felt good volunteering because I was proud of the work I did. But I was burning out and continuing to be taken advantage of. I've probably given thousands of hours of free labor to the church and was convinced that volunteering was okay because it was my way of serving god and the church. And yet, I often still paid for the retreats I was volunteering for out of pocket. I would show up at a church event and if anything went wrong audio/visual wise, I would step in and help out. All in all, so much time and energy wasted, all to propagate a religion I no longer believe in. I hate that the "mood" I had helped foster probably convinced a fair number of people suppress doubts, turn off their brain, and give in to religious feeling. It's probably my greatest regret in life.
I hope you forgive yourself fully as you were young and impressionable and how could you have known better? Every week my church would guilt us into serving more like "Don't you love god? Why don't you think about him always? You're suppose to serve." And when things go wrong because we're literal children we get ridiculed by all these old ass adults like wow ok
This thought came to mind after reading your story: "Because iniquity (injustice) will be multiplied, the love of many will grow cold." So many that wanted to love GOD and others have given up because of corrupt organizations. I get it! Our Creator is still listening, though.
Are you me? Same exact story here bro. When I got into college I just stopped going. Didn’t realize I was gravely indoctrinated until I took a biblical literature class and learned exactly how and why the bible isn’t literal.
I was never a Christian but I used to be much more friendly towards them in general. I was 'marked' at Uni by a group called The Alpha Course. They presented themselves as fairly relaxed, accepting friendly etc. One girl seemed to be pretty sweet on me, but several of them were just generally following me around, trying to infiltrate my friend circle. Anna, the girl sweet on me, asked me out on dates, but always after her church meetings. I would come along, sit at the back of the church for the fairly short 30 minute service, but they always tried to pull me in. Everyone would gather around and try to love bomb me. They rented space from a local church but there was almost no crossover between the Anglican church congregation and the evangelical Alphas. One morning at the uni canteen one of the local Anglican students (who I only slightly knew) came up and started talking to me. After about ten minutes of awkward conversation she asked me if I was a believer. I was expecting a recruitment pitch so I curtly replied no. She then slid me over a notebook and a three page document. It had pictures of me and my friends and a list of my friends and when we met and where I'd been. The notebook had roughly a dozen pages of notes listing my likes and dislikes, my political views, my hobbies etc and a ven diagram with goths/alt, pagan/hippies and 'YIPA' which was a term for art and philosophy students. My name was in the centre with lines drawn to my close friends with notes like 'possible gay' 'money' 'jew' etc. Most concerning was about a dozen references to being ready for or not ready for 'camp'. There was a lot of talk about camping weekends and if I'd want to go camping. The camp was a farmhouse where the pastor lived, about a mile outside of town, surrounded by an eight foot wall. Not tents and roughing it, something else. I challenged Anna about this. She got scared. Legitimately scared. She brought up seven peaks doctrine and saving my soul to survive the apocalypse... lots of stuff. What became clear was she was supposed to get me in a relationship, even sleep with me, love bomb me so I would join and then bring my friends to services because I had a foot in several target demographic circles they couldn't crack. She was certain she would be punished by God for not getting me to join. When I asked about the premarital sex as a lure she told me it 'didn't count as sin if God wills it'. I have no proof but from the conversation we had I am POSITIVE that her pastor or others in the recruitment mission had used that justification to trick her into sex. The Anglicans quickly cut ties with the Alphas and all those students upped and left. Because, it turns out, not students. Hung around on campus, used the facilities, carried books, discussed classes... but only a couple of recent converts were actually students, The rest were bussed in. All staying on the farm or in rented student accommodation. Frankly, the whole Christian Dominionist movement sounds dangerous as hell.
I didn't realise that Alpha courses were so extreme. They are either hosted by Anglican churches or run by them. I would object to reports kept on me too. My first walkaway came about because I had heard about backbiting about me in a prayer session and that they were so 'concerned' about me to the point where somebody else thought I had died or gone AWOL. I noticed when hearing prayers about other people much of it was exaggerated and when I met the person prayed about they were nothing like as they had been described. That particular Alpha course sounds like that Californian cult where women would seduce men to convert them.
Wow!!! The alpha course is weekly course for about a term. Yes it is designed to convert people, but is something you decide to commit to attending. This religious stalking is a whole different level and if willing to sleep with you to convert you then way off any mainstream Christian vibe. Plotting your life and likes etc is downright criminal, well at least in UK law
I grew up in a southern baptist church and the misogynistic victim blaming is so harmful. At church camp they split us up into boys and girls, and had the boys write down everything girls do to tempt them, then those things were all read to us girls. I think this had such an influence on the way I viewed my own body and sexuality, even into adulthood. I left the church and Christianity a long time ago, but it had lasting effects on the way I see myself and men, and I have a lot of disdain for that aspect of the religion.
The part about gaining positions of power made me feel sick,, the former Australian prime minister Scott Morrison was Hillsong and during his term secretly appointed himself to five additional government ministries. Scomo is a cold heartless power hungry human and also kinda stupid and was a terrible leader great to not have him as pm anymore
as an ex-mormon, a lot of your stories about purity culture and ESPECIALLY the culture of service and self-sacrifice really hit hard. the mormon church pushes sooo hard for members to serve constantly without any compensation despite how insanely rich of a church it is ($100 billion+).
Thar hit home for me as well. They ask for the moon and the stars for free. From the missions, to members of the bishoprics, stake presidency's, or just ANYBODY holding a position that's not high enough to be an apostle, they ask for EVERYTHING from you. Mormons are known for their Taberbacle Choir. What people don't know is that it's a full time professional musician job. My mother in law served in the choir for many years, and so did her mother. They are asked to make the effort to come down and practice with the choir and orchestra a good 1-2 times each week, as well as recording for the TV program every week. Hours that could be seen as a solid part time job. The other thing that hit home was the but about pastors harping on things they have hang-ups about in their own lives. With Dallin H. Oaks in particular, he has orchestrated and advocated for torturous forms of conversion therapy (first when he was the president of byu in the 70s, and throughout his remaining time as an apostle) leading to the death by suicide of many members of the church and especially LGBTQ+ people going to school at byu. He continues to cause a reign of terror, targeting queer people in most of his talks today. This past month he decided to grace us with a speech about how the church "won't apologize" for past wrongs and oversites (he was addressing the racist past of the church in this talk). So I've wondered very much about why homophobia is just so near and dear to his heart 🙃 there is NOTHING wrong with being queer, a different race, or oh so many other things. I still identify as Christian, but as a progressive one. But I had never been given informed consent in my own life leading to my membership, and then when I disconnected, I've come to realize how important that is. Yall have hit the nail on the head with this video!
I went to a smaller yet still large multi campus church and yep. They wanted you to serve and they acted like they were friends with you. But the second you said no just once they would turn on you and literally act like you had cooties or something and completely ignore you.
Yup ... Childhood SA survivor.... As a late teen and into my early twenties I was told to repent of the soul ties that were created between 10yr old me and 40yr old men. And that when I'm no longer holding bitterness or anger towards those men or the situation that's when I know I'll have forgiven those men the way god forgives me for my many sins.
The Volunteers are definitely aiding the Pastors to live in luxury. I served at a mega church, usedm my own money to facilitate everything, and was getting uncomfortable with the whole situation. When hard lockdown kicked in, the Pastors were posting pics of them having holidays, whilst some church members did not have money to live on, loosing their jobs and income. That is when I realised just how disconnected the Pastors are with the congregation, and how it was about growing membership and income without caring for the poor souls that are keeping them in luxury.
I knew at least 3 churches that had pastors kicked out because of affairs. My own had an IT guy that got fired for watching porn on the job, a youth leader child molester, and another youth leader who married an underage girl when she became 18. Actually, if I had a nickel for every time that last example happened, I’d have 2 nickels. Which isn’t a lot but weird that it happened twice
If they are in Tennessee the girls ages won't matter anymore. 😒 I still can't get over a freakin pedo bill being introduced by these people who are constantly screaming about what "the pedos across the aisle" are doing. Then they will say Oh that's just Tennessee that's not us! Yet they allow that TN congressman to stay in their ranks. Along with Jordan & Gates. Hypocrites much?
Nope, you have no monopoly on the activity I know of at least a scandal per church from all my crimsbian contacts per year on avg. Repressive cultural influences can distill the evil into positions where most damaging.
I had such a problem as a kid knowing which thoughts and feelings were “from me” vs “from God” vs “from the devil”. Usually it was broken down as “good” = God. “Bad” = devil. “Selfish” = self. But I could never figure out what was good or what was selfish. Even still today I have trouble figuring out what the right thing to do is. It really messes you up.
@@cedriceric9730 moral organization? Lmfao. Youmean the ones that touchkidios and traffick humans in the name of Jesus. While persecuting the non believers
@@cedriceric9730 perhaps so but how do you determine the morality of an organization? Just calling your organization a church does not make you morally significant
@@dlwseattle Churches are not the only organizations that are tax-exempt. You have to go through a process to register a church, or other religious organization, or charitable organization, as tax-exempt with the IRS.
I’ve noticed a general trend of documentaries showing specific cults as being the bad example, when it’s clearly a pattern. Jim Jones is just one of many more like him that use the same general strategy. Hillsong is one of many.
I left churchianity years ago. The harm and hurt experienced by Christians was way more devastating than what the world ever threw at me. It was my personal relationship with Jesus Christ that got me thru.
Hi! Sending my love to you❤️ (like really, not in a fake way like I guess you have experienced) I have been hurt by other Christians too so just wanted to send this to you .
This is my experience. I‘m glad you‘re still keeping the faith. Left my cultish church almost a year ago. My whole life and faith elevated to a new level, I‘m relieved God got my sister and me out of such a spiritually abusive place.
Your Jesus film story took me right back to the way my childhood church taught us to think! One time we were setting up a small pool in our yard and something went wrong with the hose so we couldn’t fill it and I said to my mom that it was satan trying to keep us from having a fun time that day and to her credit, despite the extremely fundamentalist doctrine we were in, my mom was just like “You know, sometimes unfortunate things just happen, it’s not always something you need to read deeper meaning into.”
One of the last straws for me as a fundamentals Christian was realizing how manipulated I had been, especially being such a sensitive and emotional person. It hurt and made me so angry that people in my family were often in this role as pastors and teachers. I was 17 and have never once looked back. Channels like yours are therapeutic because when you've been raised in that kind of environment it can take a long time and a lot of evaluation to understand how manipulated and hurt you really were.
I Was a preacher a pastor for so many years until I was raped by another church member. It’s been 8 years since I’ve been to a church again. It’s awful painful and disgusting how they sweep 🧹 everything under the rug and get away with it all. But God will judge them on that mighty day!
I grew up in AofG churches and I call it a cult now. Whenever I try to explain how insidious it is, or talk about how I now have trauma and religious PTSD people just think I'm being overly dramatic.
AG is absolutely a cult in my experience. My ex-father in law was a pastor in that denomination as well as his son who molested his daughter. The local church assisted in covering it up 😡
I’m so sorry about that. I’m not familiar with Assembly of God theology but I’ll look into it! If you’re on Reddit at all there’s quite a number of subreddits that would relate to you if you’re feeling alone in this.
@@lindseyhendrix2405 Thank you. My kids are on Reddit but I’m not. Perhaps I’ll look into it. Assembly of God churches are Pentecostal (ie speaking in tongues, slain in the spirit, etc).
you are the first person i have seen say that about A&G. It depends on the church sometimes. I am older and i am still purging bad theology, bad emotions. rigidity out of my heart and life. I do agree whole heartedly that you can have ptsd of this religious "indoctrination." May you grown in grace and truth
So many relatable things. Still in the Christian camp myself, but wholeheartedly agree that we need to examine and deal with the rampant problems we create. Often find myself nodding along with the two of you (including regarding Drew’s video on worship) and really appreciate your general demeanor - it’s more Christ like than much of the rhetoric in the church these days.
@@zapkvr I was poking fun at myself, not you. Should have linked the video I was thinking of - it’s a list of common Christian apologetics arguments and why they aren’t very strong. I have no intention of peddling tracts here or changing your mind. I’m trying to do the whole listening to another perspective thing, which is really easy to do with these two because they don’t belittle my beliefs while presenting reasonable arguments for why they disagree.
I remeber the war that broke out in my small Southern Baptist church over their music. The old folks only wanted hymns and the young adults wanted hillsong
🤣🤣 We had the same issue at my church. We would rotate the style of music every Sunday, and the older folks wouldn’t come on Sunday’s we had contemporary music.
Southern Baptist raised person too! SAME. You’d have thought somebody did some horrific crime, the first time a Hillsong song was done instead of a hym. The older people left in droves. Also it about split the church when we moved the pews out in favor of chairs.
I am a Christian, a committed Christ follower, and just a couple years ago left the hypercharismatic movement, of which Hillsong is part. The ministry I was heavily involved with is part, although our church is not. I also was once part of a mega-church. Sadly, I’ve witnessed or personally experienced much of what you mentioned. I am so very sorry all of that happened to you. It grieves my heart deeply, and I’m grateful for those who are exposing the problems in the NAR/hypercharismatic, evangelical and other segments of the church. We are all broken, fallen people, and we do things that hurt others. None of us is immune to the lure of power, money, and fame, including those who truly have a heart to follow Jesus. Thanks for sharing and making this video.
Evangelical fundamentalist charismatic churches scare me. I wish people would go back to mainstream religions. My question is how much money do these churches actually give to charity to people in need. Other churches do and you don't have to be part of the religion to get Aid from them. My sister and her family go to a fundamentalist Evangelical Church. I have gone to her church. I think I see what goes on more objectively. They're all brainwash and bought into this stuff. I have talked to people that go to these churches. Their thought process is mind-boggling to me. They know who's going to heaven and Hell. They have a very rigid sense of right and wrong and they're right. This is underneath all the pretty fluff.. BTW I am a Christian. I go to a mainstream church. I see the numbers dwindling in these type of churches. People go to these evengelical churches. Like I said they scare me..They are .GQP in my experience.
Well stated. After watching this, it kinda feels like the blind commenting on the blind, although they do get the fact right that Hillsong is basically a facade. And based on the comment section of this video, most people are being exposed to churches with false teachers promoting false teaching rather than a real church with accurate, biblically-based teaching.
So amazed to hear your stories, you just helped me unlike the reason for some f my most troubling actions. I too undervalue my time and energy greatly as well
This has to be one of the best videos on your channel regarding evangelical churches and calling out the bigger system behind was so well conducted. I grew up in a fundamentalistic guru cult and it felt very similar to what I have lived in my childhood. Our guru and his leadership team and family (he has 11 children) did all sort of brainwashing and he was a good speaker. Once I said that he was good at giving sermons and someone told me it was a sin to say that and our "prophet" didn't do anything but everything was done by God. He also claimed that our TV channel was the biggest in the world (LoL) and that he would be soon running the world. Glad he doesn't but it's all his fantasy and these 3000 souls following him are sadly still part of it.
Thank you so much! That means a lot to me! I’m curious (and you have no obligation to share) what cult you grew up in? I’m so sorry you had to go through that!
@@theantibot I grew up in a Swiss cult called OCG, their guru is Ivo Sasek and his family of 11 children. You'll find a ton of their material online but it's all in German I'm afraid
I’m a Christian and I must say this video is well done, especially the part about emotionalism during worship. Well done! I think it’s a shame to these Christians that people from outside of the church do very well in objectively calling them out based on Christian standards. It goes to show how decadent Christianity is becoming.
it's not real Christianity. There are some that are the real deal, but anyone with just a little discernment will pick up on the stupidity of most evangelical/charismatic churches.
@@danarosesturgeon 110% agree. Even as a kid, I’d give my 2¢ about the service or a pastor in the car ride home 😂 and nowadays it’s only bolder. MIT blows my mind that so many are blind to these cons, my parents included.
I left the church because I was in Christian school and they had a guest speaker he preached a sermon on how every woman who was a victim of SA, it was their fault. And he spoke from “experience” as a former police officer. I skipped all my classes for the rest of that day and withdrew from school the next week.
That's horrific from all angles (a police officer thinking this and the Christian school endorsing it). I'm glad you were able to unroll and go somewhere else
I'm an ex Pentecostal. I still identify as a Christian but i refuse to go to Church anymore. I got so sick of all the toxicity, and I'm so glad some of it is coming out into the open now! I really really love this channel because, although I'm not an atheist, i still relate to 99.9% of what you're saying!!! 😊
I remember when I was part of a church that was wanting to build a new building so they had a drive to raise the money for it, all the sermons, songs, Sunday school, small groups were all about giving "to God" which was really just a give to build this building. I had a conversation with the head pastor that he was manipulating people to give to this project, he denied it saying he wasn't that smart and people could give anything to they want all while praising people that sold their home and donated their stocks and retirement to the church for the building project.
I thought about asking you which church this was, but then I realized that it doesn't matter. There are too many places this kind of thing happens for it matter which one it was.
@@Irisarc1 yeah most follow the same playbook. I was in a worse one before that one, I called the pastor out for plagiarizing his sermons, he was getting them from Rick Warren at the time, he called me the spawn of Satan and that I needed to learn humility if I stayed there they would make sure I learned it. His son later took over the church until he was arrested, charged and pled guilty to third degree sexual abuse and forcible touching. Then he looked guilty to sexual abuse a couple years later. That was at Victory Church in Rochester NY, Joe and Paul Burress, if you watched "Fight Church" they are in it. I was long gone before Fight Church was a thing.
@@wilkimist That is so awful. It's all too common, as well. I'm glad you didn't stick around after the jerk pastor responded to you like that. Having "Reverend" or "Pastor" in front of your name should not make you immune to accountability, but unfortunately it often does.
@@Irisarc1 it's way too common, I wish I could have done more but I didn't know about the anything illegal and my "friends" in the church didn't want to hear anything from me. I just feel bad for their victims.
As someone growing up as part of the Salvation Army, I really felt what you said about having social anxiety and all the volunteer work involving being social. That always made me feel like a bit of an imposter. But all in all, I'm kinda grateful for my anxiety because it kept me out of the mega-churches my friends were so excited about. To me, a thousand ecstatic teenagers singing and praying together was absolutely terrifying.
So interesting that the documentary really framed Hillsong as "one bad apple" while simultaneously poking holes in Hillsong's attempts to call every single one of their scandals the results of "one bad apple". Focusing on the tree instead of the leaf is one thing...forgetting to see the forest is another. I grew up in a church that had no direct connection to Hillsong, but was always on the cutting-edge of the new Hillsong music, and had a few pastors who preached in the exact same styles, and was definitely an aspiring mega church. And while the leadership was certainly worth criticizing, and was one of the main reasons I left that specific church, it was the neo-Charismatic beliefs, structure, and manipulation that pushed me out of religion entirely - and that's a deeply-entrenched system, not the result of specific individuals. I've heard enough thought-terminating cliches and manipulative BS to last a lifetime, and it didn't just come from the one senior pastor - it came from everyone, everywhere.
Good for you and your ability to face reality. Don't let them drag you back to all that bullcrap. When you have hard times in life what you need is other humans, not some imaginary magic that does nothing but placebo your mind.
Years ago when all churches had were hymns and a pipe organ… those soaring choruses , swelling music combined with the architecture can be a powerful ‘ aphrodisiac’ for directing emotional responses. Also, in the black church, the handclap, tambourine, Hammond organ…I can hear an old hymn/spiritual and be transported and Moved. Right there. So, Hillsong is not doing anything new or uncommon.
Dude! I can go you one better. I’ve been watching the antibot for a little while now AND I watched a video not too long ago with her and genetically modified skeptic. And I STILL didn’t know they were married. I was like “oh. A collab. How nice. I like this guy. I’ve never watched him before but he seems really kind. Also they complement each other well. Nice.” I didn’t even know his real name. I must’ve only known his name was ‘genetically modified skeptic’ because she said it at some point and then after that his videos began being recommended to me.
Yeah, I’d actually seen and enjoyed her anti-MLM content. I’ve watched GMS for a long time, had NO idea they were married, it’s so cool! I’m really glad they are sharing their stories…very interesting!
I used to be involved in a yearly competition called nationals and would do choir, ensembles, poetry and so much more. Yea religion to inspire favoritism and self doubt I feel
In the charismatic evangelical world, the praise and worship team is EVERYTHING. My parents would visit different churches until they found one with a worship team they liked. The pastor, the community, and any other “amenities” the church had to offer didn’t matter as long as the band was good.
Yeah, from music ministries to youth ministry, that Praise and Worship team can make or break the bank. The Dad Challenge Podcast has all sorts of real-life experiences in these churches that he shares. A look behind the curtain, so to speak.
I went through this too. But after 21 years of believing in core religion. Got on some antidepressants and the guilt and overachiever side of me was under control 🤪
I have a fried who is a progressive, nuanced Christian worship leader for a relatively small non-denominational church. She was devastated when all the stuff came out on Hillsong; she tries to be really thoughtful about the music she programs, and stopped including them in services. I wish she'd recognize the flaws in Christianity itself...but she is a wonderful, non-judgemental human regardless.
It's good to hear about such people. Though, especially if they're good friends, we want them free from and immune to the inherent "problems" in Christianity, we also *need* more Christians in the progressive streams of Christianity and we need more progressive Christians (who tend to be accepting and tolerant of fellow "Christians" however bigoted and dangerous) to speak up and speak out (if not against harsher brethren) for their own causes and against bigotry, for liberty for all and against tyranny/authoritarianism/dictatorship/Dominionism. Atheist myself, fascinated by religion/mythology/psychology/sociology, I often have mixed feelings for Christians who seem to be seeking a new path, or progressive Christians upset by the scandals permeating the religion (and most religions, and politics, and authoritarian industries, and schools...). We need Christians in place with forward attitudes egalitarian mores. But I rejoice with every yearly gain in numbers/percentages of atheists/agnostics/nones/spiritual-but-not-religious/humanists, "doesn't-really-matter"-ists. Anti-Dominionists.
@@theartzscientist8012 I've recently tripped over quite a bit of newer Christian music that really bugs me though I haven't been Christian in many decades. Songs that sound like romantic love songs to Jesus, from girls and boys. Mind you I have no objection to homosexuality. But I don't see anything Biblical about lusting after Jesus. All this sex-sex-sex especially with purity culture seems to be setting kids up for abuse.
I grew up LDS (Mormon) and so much of this sounds just like what I grew up with. There is of course the very aggressive missionary work. There is also the teaching that the church will spread across the world and essentially take over all social, cultural, and political institutions. More recently, a great amount of the church's finances have come to light. The church is legally structured as a corporation. In 2018 a whistle blower revealed an investment portfolio of over $100B that was supposed to be for charitable works only ever being used on for-profit projects. Even with all this money, the church basically requires a great amount of volunteer work to maintain their buildings and run their programs. I could keep going for a while.
You can see the beginnings of the Mormon conquest with the failed anti-bank and the "revelation" that went with it. And, of course , the Council of the 50. That one was a literal world domination planning party.
I grew up Mormon as well. I think I can see now that even though they cause a lot of harm and are corrupt in many ways, I also see that they could be worse. I’m really noticing that no organization is free from corruption.
I love hearing both of your thoughts on this. I’m from the Southern US, right in the Bible Belt. I never felt a “connection” to any church I ever went to but I’ve had moments of “feeling the spirit” during certain songs at times. The preaching felt repetitive and boring, so I stopped going consistently with my grandparents around 12 years old. My mom just got back into a church that we went to when I was very young and don’t really remember much of. I’ve never known her to do church besides when I was to young to remember. It’s weird seeing her so into it when she hasn’t been in so long. I think she started going to take my nieces but she’s said that it feels like family and a community. I’m glad she has that community, she knows the large majority of people there from childhood. Anyways now with some background, my husband and I went to a baptism recently with my moms church. The music was all I could stand honestly (book of hymns, not pop). The preachings felt like straight manipulation and it was very uncomfortable. Shouting and yelling doesn’t do anything for me but people were right with them. Everyone was yelling and I couldn’t understand anything anyone was saying. I felt more exhausted and drained after this 3.5 hours than I have after a 3 day festival in the Carolina heat in May before the panorama. I felt more connected to the music, myself, and those around me at these festivals I’ve been to than I ever have at a service.
3:25 Before I get into the video, TIL you and Drew are married. I've been watching GMSkeptic for about a year, and Antibot for a few months but never even thought about it. Anyway congrats for however long you're been married, I guess
I heard a lot of talk about the documentary. When I watched it for myself and was left with a feeling of, “That’s it?? That’s the scandal? Those things are happening everywhere in most churches.” I thought it was going to be something more interesting.
A big pain point for me as a Christian (devout for 25 years) was that I never seemed to have the same emotional response to worship as others did. I'd look around and see other people crying or with their hands in the air, and I just couldn't for the life of me figure out why I wasn't experiencing it that way, too. And when I tried, I just felt fake and silly. It was the same with prayer. It really made me question my devotion and it felt like I was the problem, like I wasn't good enough. It fueled a lot of shame and disappointment with myself, and it took many years of deconstruction to figure out that I wasn't the problem.
Same here. The “Emperor’s new clothes” springs to mind. I hate manipulative tactics and refusing to be drawn into the “worship” really brought home how human it all was, no gods required
its really such a f^^^ing church thing to exactly name a system being "isolated".I was on a catholic school and its the only thing that makes me mad , hypocrisy is normal but its still triggering for me ,to see any kind of religion in a positive way died with religious upbringing.
Great video and great conversations. I was a Christian in a charismatic church and so much of your experience is relatable. I don’t always like having these kinds of conversations so I appreciate those who make videos like yours.
Blamining the victim is not exclusive to religion, but rather the patriarchy in general. I was brought up as an atheist, but still my parents blamed me when I finally admitted I was molested by my cousin. I was accused of being responsible for going to a place where men drunk alcohol. Funnily enough that "place" was a family event at my aunt's... The society is sick as a whole. Still, great video.
Every single point you made in your video hit me right in the feels. I will always have a soft spot in my heart for some good hymns (specifically the "traditional" hymns). Never did I think it was the Holy Spirit/God/Jesus, etc. Especially when I had the same exact emotions when I first found Walk The Moon (definitely not a Christian band lmao). I have not seen the Hillsong documentary, but I have definitely seen the type of stuff described in your video on a smaller scale in churches I've attended in the past. I understand that churches need money to keep lights on and whatnot, but it always felt gross that every church I went would have full on sermons about "the church needing more money". Like the Bible always talks about how the Church is the community within the building, not the building itself. Church was always the space where I felt the most "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mentality. Nothing was ever good enough, because only God is good enough, or whatever we were told. I've recently come across both of your channels, and it's so lovely to see folks who have the same mindsets and similar experiences as I had. My parents are very disappointed that I'm no longer part of the Church, but I'm so much happier, confident, and relationships are so much more meaningful now. Thanks for all you two do! :)
My first husband (in an evangelical church - he was one of the "minor worship leaders," because he is concertmaster of the local symphony), refused to have alone time with me (a single mother) before marriage, because he was "avoiding the appearance of evil." I was a "whore" because I was a single mom. And he refused to even hold hands, or kiss me, before marriage. It's funny, because the minute we kissed after being pronounced married by a JP (because the church cancelled our wedding a few days before the day, because I apparently cheated with two men - which never happened), and the church posted notices on the church doors telling people why the wedding was cancelled, I KNEW I had made a terrible choice to marry this man. He was THE WORST lover I ever had. But, to this day (34 years after) he still refuses to acknowledge religion is abusive.
@@alisonmartin3856 I'm pretty much convinced that a LOT of churches do things like this - especially evangelical ones. Other churches often refuse to acknowledge abuses done, and just want those who are hurt to "get over it." I stopped believing long ago.
I think not getting intimate or in being places where that would happen before marriage is what every believer is called to. How it turned out after the marriage isn't part of this but lack of physical intimacy before marriage protects everyone.
@@pkangata “Not getting intimate?” Holding hands, giving a hug, giving kisses? What do you mean by your euphemism? Because I’m not talking about having penis in vagina sex, or whatever pleasure two consenting adults enjoy experiencing, before getting married, although I do not have anything against people choosing to have sex, or not have sex. It is up to each person to do what they wish to do. And nobody has the right to shame anyone for the things others do with their lives. “Are called to?” By whom? Other believers? Like peer pressure? It’s not anyone else’s business what two people do when they’re alone. If YOU decide to have no sex, that is an agreement you and your chosen partner come to. It is not something dictated by anyone outside of the relationship. I have a real problem with that suggestion that believers “are called to” different behaviours, as though they are somehow better, or higher than, things others do. In that church community’s eyes, I was already “damaged goods” because I was a single mom. My then fiancé followed that line of thinking, and devalued me accordingly. Sex shaming is wrong. Believing that having sex devalues people in any way is wrong. And the point of what I said, which you did not address, was the outright ABUSE that I spoke of. The abuse by the cult (“church”), the abuse by my then fiancé, the continued abuse by my husband after marriage. You did not hear with compassion. You chose to make sex into a boogeyman, and speak to some sort of imaginary “calling.” If abuse is what adherents to a religion is justified by their religion, that religion is crap. And my first husband is still an abuser who refuses to stop using his religion to abuse. If I had had the information of being able to at least kiss him, or spend time alone with him, or hold his hand, I could have had at least a sense of whether he had passion. He didn’t, and he was physically blah. He did not present the truth. He claimed all would be hearts and flowers and perfectly awesome after that magical pronouncement. So, you go ahead and believe what suits you, and don’t minimize what I experienced, m’kay?!
@@shinykazzadragon anything that can trigger sexual intercourse shouldn’t be done before marriage. Prospectives are supposed to meet in public where there are other people probably accountability partners to keep them pure till marriage. If all believers did this we wouldn’t be having so much anguish coming from consequences of sex without a commitment eg abortion, unwanted children, claims of partners being trapped, inability to move on in case one feels incompatible with a partner before marriage etc.
I don't think power corrupts, I think more accurate is that power reveals. Good people do not get evil when they get into power, bad people reveal themselves in their actions when they got into power.
When talking about how the music is orchestrated to cause emotion, this bothered me. I watched the documentary and it made me feel robbed. If I think about the songs that make me emotional at church it is usually a Hillsong song. It made me feel robbed of all the emotions I have felt through the years. Was it not God convicting my heart? 🤔
My answer to that is: It might have been, it might not have been. The music activates the parasympathetic nervous system, opening one to bonding, influence, and change. Christianity and many other faith traditions use music, chanting, repetition, etc. to facilitate this state so that participants are more likely to have genuine experiences with the divine. So you were feeling that oxytocin rush for sure. I would say that it is entirely possible that you had genuine experiences of God during those times, or at least during some of them (God can use those who are clueless, and even those with bad intentions). It is also entirely possible that it was merely your nervous system functioning normally. The emotions are yours, either way, no one can take away that feeling of connection and wholeness and safety, you may just want to watch for who else might take advantage of that state when you feel that way again.
@Last man Walking Of course there may not be a God. God may definitely be something humans had to imagine in order to manage the emotional needs of a social species with higher-level cognition. However, IF there is a God, I definitely know that dude. I don't trust any person of faith who doesn't at least occasionally entertain the possibility that God doesn't exist.
Remember the word of God whether through a song also preaching is what touches are heart even though all these things going on I'll way out of whack because they're not following the real word of God and doctrine and theology and that's why the church is all messed up but if you felt the tug of the holy Spirit at your heart let God save your soul and accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior and repent of your sins and he will truly come into your heart and then try to find a true church it's very hard because 75% of a real whacked out you might have to just find a Bible study with true Christians in it
@Last man Walking if you are a ex Christian then you never were a true Christian to be going with because if you really had the true Jesus in your heart you would know the difference and you would have been totally set free and been able to read the true word of God and have a relationship with him you will be in my prayers I wouldn't want to be anybody on judgment Day that didn't have Jesus in their heart
@@davidjohnson6538 You are disgusting for saying such a thing. You don't get to judge who is or isn't a true Christian, so in the future you should just bite your forked tongue and keep quiet.
Thanks for sharing your story, it resonates with me quite a lot. I’m thankful that you mentioned you still have fond thoughts and memories of your time as a Christian because its the same for me. I loved the music and it did get me through hard times, doesn’t mean I have to believe in God still. So it’s nice to know someone else feels that too ☺️
In as much as you disapprove of corporate church (me too) I’d love to hear your thoughts on the international organized crime syndicate that is the Holy Roman Catholic Church. My opinion - the greatest concentration of evil to have ever existed. No exaggeration
This organization is being sieved and purified from sexual abuses by her Founder to transform her into an international organized holy ministry syndicate, as envisioned by her Founder, the Christ Himself.
Former Southern Baptist Christian and I love both your and Drew's channels! I got to watch this documentary recently and was cool to hear your take on it. The two of you are a RU-vid Atheist Power Couple :)
Started yelling at the screen when you guys discussed informed consent. You were spot on. Even as a devout evangelical I was pretty skeptical of charasmatics and charasmatic practices even in the half a dozen times I participated or observed. But as an exvangelical I find myself really angry at charasmatic practices and how they exploit people and yes trick them (non consensual).
I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and even though I left 20 years ago, I've still been trying to unpick what went on and especially with the music and worship and lights and vocals, and that formula works equally in church as it does on a dance floor to elicit a response. Thank you so much both for rationally unpacking so much. I have been attending a Spiritualist church for the past couple of years, we sing crusty hymns (with the words changed) and the odd random Abba song, or Bette Midler's 'The Rose' .. there are 40 ordinary folk at best on a Sunday, and we have a lovely female Rev who has almost no charisma but just cares about everyone, and governance and keeping everyone safe is really important. Compared to my previous religion, it's just nice be in an ordinary community, where folk just want to be kind.
I really enjoyed your opinion on this documentary and about churches as a whole. I didn't know Hillsong made Oceans, I really loved that song when I was more involved in church way back when.
I’m so glad you enjoyed it! Tbh I still love Oceans. You should check out this lofi cover: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mPcLc9qgBS8.html
Excessive money and power tend to have a corruptive effect. I suspect it is even worse in certain churches where the institution is founded on influencing and control their members.
Sometimes the amount of detail these leaders go into in telling people what not to do sexually, and the amount of details they pry into in "confessions", in addition to the sexual dominance Drew described, and "mentoring" the person to stay chaste, is basically them exploiting their position and living out their own sexual fantasies without doing the actual act. It reminds me of someone who told me a story about a creepy older guy telling them and their partner (a lesbian-read couple) about how much better it would be to be with a man and describing the type of O a woman could have ... basically this guy was sexually harassing them while on the surface framing it as concern and "encouraging" them to try the straight [no pun intended] and narrow path of heterosexuality". I think when church leaders obsess over certain sexual things it's actually repression speaking. The number of people in conservative church circles who absolutely obsess over LGBTQIA+ people's bodies and how they do it, while acting like it's morally reprehensible, but can't get enough of the descriptions, really makes me wonder. Because back when I was an evangelical in my teens and early 20s I used to also be fascinated with the lives of people who went out partying (as I wasn't allowed to go to nightclubs, even the under 18 ones when I was under 18) and gossip about them to my youth group friends hoping for more fascinating details about their rebellious lives (which basically just involved which nightclub they went to and whether they drank alcohol or +gasp+ someone's neck got kissed), but now that I live as me and not under a conservative religion, I sure as heck don't obsess over news about the lives of other people. It was just repression, and the only way to indulge my curiosity was under the guise of condemning that "sin" of partying while encouraging details whenever someone shared them. That's why I reckon this prying and the level of detail they elicit in "keeping accountability" is actually their way of living out their own s*xual fantasies. Since they can't watch porn, etc and so much is taboo. Like, that leader did not have to ask if they used protection in a confession setting. And I bet that wasn't the only unnecessary additional detail he asked them while building up a scenario in his head.
I recently left Wave Church (yep, the one featured in the documentary) as well as religion entirely now. One of my best friends recently came out to me as atheist without knowing that I had also just left religion. He wasn't a regular churchgoer while I was. Amidst our talk about both of us recently leaving religion, he told me he could tell, from outside looking in, that the church environment I was in was toxic well before I ever realized it myself.
Yes! I just found you and your husband and love your content (currently binge watching 😂). I was in an evangelical independent church that was "spirit filled" for 15 years. We were in a small community but the pastor was most definitely working on being a mega church. I agree that these things are not just a Hillsong thing and I appreciate your perspectives on this. 😊
Another exvie here. I’m also a survivor of SA. The victim blaming part is right. I thought for years that I must’ve did something to provoke the abuse. Also, I would best be described as a red letter christian, so not really conventional. In no way do i believe the sex before marriage trope. The control of people’s sex lives is insane. I hate it. I don’t even think there is proof that sex before legal marriage is a thing. I think it’s what’s causing the insane abuse scandals in the 501c3 churches. I agree with drew about the power dynamics. It’s why I left the church. I think faith is a personal thing and it’s supposed to be positive.
@@zapkvr that’s your opinion. You’re absolutely allowed to feel that way if you’d like, but, like you, I’m also able to have an opinion and I don’t feel it’s stupid.
So Hillsong started in Sydney, Australia, just down the road form my place and I can tell you, there have always been abusive and manipulative SOBs. I have had close family in the church, I have gone too there teenage meeting things and had friend sin the church, none of the expeinces have had has been good. People have known so much of this dodgy and abusive shit for so long and it's good too see it's coming out.
Hillsong may not have many overheads here in Australia, but Brian Houston is "spiritual advisor" to our Prime Minister. I find that extremely disturbing.
Growing up before the web existed, i felt like it was an older person's world. Now that I'm older and we have this "new" way of communicating, i feel like it's a young person's world. That said - i survived what you guys are experiencing now. Wish i could reach through the screen and look you in the eyes to show my sincerity but it turns out the internet isn't perfect after all. Keep on questioning! ☺️👍🏼
Fellow apostate here from Sydney Australia. I live just down the road from the main Hillsong Campus, Baulkham Hills in Sydney's west. Really love your commentary in all your videos guys. I've learned so much and I'm one of Drew's patreon supporters. I know the head singer of Hillsong band (Taya Smith before she was married) . Went to school with her in the year above he at my country town near Byron Bay. I went to graduation with her sister and Taya sang there. But we went to different churches in our country town of 40,000. They were at the charismatic church and I went to the Calvinistic church feels very similar to Sean McDowell's style from what I've seen of, 12 give or take, of his videos. Our church was less expressive, more intellectual. Ie happy clappy V sitty thinky. As a contrast in Australia most evangelical churches that aren't charismatic don't use music this way that you mention at 21:23. When I was a Christian and active church participant we actively disliked the emotional attempts at music manipulation we saw in the charasmatic movement. We sang but the service leader said it was our choice of expression. We were responding to God's word after hearing it, if we felt called to. Whenever I/we visited the charasmatic churches we saw them using music to force emotions we felt that that was not good. We would say "People should not be being manipulated over being reasoned with and knowing it's true intellectually. That's dangerous." I think you guys are right in that most churches you've experienced or people you know experience do this. But it was the opposite experience from the theological ecosystem I was in. It was the exception more than the rule unless you went to a charasmatic church.
What you said about Brian spinning it so he is the victim it is still happening. The newspapers in Australia this week have articles going back and forth about Bobbie being made redundant. Brian is blasting that she was let go over text and Hillsong are rebutting that it didn't happen this way. Hillsong sent an email to their congregants in reply to the insta post that Brian made. Here it also makes the news cycle more because our Prime Minister has on numerous occasions said that Brian is his mentor and advisor even though he doesn't attend Hillsong himself - attends a different Pentecostal church that is closer to his home.
I had literally never heard of Hillsong at all before all the buzz over the documentary happened. Your perspective here has much value and the content is eye opening. Well done.
My church covered up two sexual assaults THAT I KNOW OF. The pastor also admitted to working with several admitted pedophiles in the church while taking no precautions and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were cover ups there too. This led to most of the people I was close to leaving the church at the same time I did. I’d gone there because I thought they were fairly liberal, but at conferences church leaders would talk about welcoming gay people to the church, but they weren’t allowed to be members because they were living in sin and they were vocally anti-feminist. Anyway, I’m an atheist now so I guess I should thank them for giving me a good reason to leave the brainwashing environment. We loved Hillsong.
17:41 I remember being told during acoustic worship nights that we needed to “train ourselves” to feel God even without all of the productions. My former church had an AMAZING band. Other churches would often hire them to come play. They did an incredible job at setting the tone and evoking emotion through music. So that often left people feeling “less spiritual” when we’d have acoustic worship nights, and the same emotion wasn’t present. But the blame was put on us as people for not being holy enough, rather than the church for tricking us into to thinking the emotion of the music was God’s presence.
22:55 - this is actually the real reason I left the church. They only ever contacted me when they wanted me to volunteer, made no effort to make me a part of the community otherwise. It was too much so at some point I was like "fuck it, I'm out"
I grew up non-denominational but definitely more evangelical than not. My dad was a worship leader so I grew up with Hillsongs(and Hosana music and Maranatha and Vineyard and even MorningStar). I actually ended up going to Morningstar University for the worship program. We had Lance Walnau(whose famous for his Seven Mountain Mandate teachings) come to our school to teach along with Brian Johnson from Bethel and Mike Bickle of IHOP. The amount of rich people I saw in leadership disturbed me especially when I found out the people working at the hotel/cafe were so poorly compensated(my school bought the old Jim Bakker Heritage USA property). While I was there, Obama beat McCain/Palin and the church(and school) started getting more political. That was probably the beginning of my final deconstruction. I’ve always been to the left of most Christians. Since I’ve left, the leadership has seemed to become a Trump cult. All that to say, I agree, the issues I’ve heard from the hillsong documentary seem par for the course of the church. In my life alone, I’ve seen three pastors step down for having affairs, at least two who did sneaky finances…and that’s all that I’m aware of because I was a kid during a lot of that.
You know what I found to be the most repulsive part of the worship being used as an emotional manipulation? That even before you take your seat for the sermon, they ask for tithes while the music is still going. Like they get you with the subliminal emotional setup so they can get more money out of you.
At the WOF Church I used to belong to, they would take the offering before the sermon...It was like: "If you don't pay us enough, you aren't going to get a sermon." They never said that, but it was a strong "feeling" (in the atmosphere)...I think people felt coerced (forced) to give (otherwise the Church wouldn't be able to pay It's bills) They would say: "Is this YOUR Church, therefore....."
I love your videos but can you add captions? I live with my parents still, who are evangelical Christians and they don't know I'm atheist, so I have to listen to your exvangelical videos on very low volume. I'd really appreciate it
They have to believe they're being persecuted because Jesus was persecuted, and they desperately want to not be criticized. So you see everything as persecution, despite having massive power.
Those mountains sounded too familiar. Paused video. Googled Church from childhood to see affiliation. The rock church. Invited into the Hillsong family. On a mission to expand the kingdom of God. Anyone can watch sermons online. Find your foundation... Shudder.. love the name Antibot and also, thank you for all of your genuine care and vulnerability. You, your husband, and others like you have been invaluable comfort and help along the healing path. Plus y'all are adorable and the love you have for each other pours off my screen. Peace and light ❣️
I had never heard of Hillsong before but I've been an agnostic for many decades. I was born a catholic and as a whole the congregation don't proselytise but as I became older I questioned the contradictions and the wealth of the church. When those of Irish heritage in NI started asking for equal rights, religion showed its ugly side, with people like the Reverend (how ironic) Ian Paisley preaching hatred. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0zlwLyZwnBg.html Blaise Pascal, (brainiac and confirmed Christian), summed it up brilliantly: *"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."* It's a pity he didn't carry it on to the conclusion, too busy being a polymath possibly.
The Catholic Church is the largest non Governmental Land Holder worldwide. With their combined Real estate holdings combined equal to roughly the size of France. Kinda makes you wonder if they are really doing all they can to help the needy and end homelessness!
As an ex-christian, I was nodding along and agreeing with all your experiences in the church. Especially the expectation to volunteer, boy was it a pain to do but you're kind of put in a situation where you have to. There was a church I visited when I was a young adult, and having only gone there 3 times I was already being guilted to volunteer. But yeah, now that I've left the church its so interesting to see this same stuff that happened at the Hillsong church, happening at churches I used to go to. One of the churches I used to grow up in (I think they had around 150-200 members), the pastor had to resign because there were rumours of him having an affair with one of the church members.
@@SheepDog1974 that's the lie they tell in church about us to poison the well against anyone who left the church. It's perverse and constructed so you can reassure yourself that you would never end up leaving because you are a "true" christian. Hopefully some day you'll grow as a person and leave behind the child stuff (like Christianity), as Paul would say.
I went to Hillsong here in Australia and now go to a small reformed church near my home after not attending church for well over a decade. I am interested in "deconversion" many people go through. I personally had no problems with Hillsong and didn't stop due to hurt ect. I must say I find the little church I attend now is much more authentic to Christianity and whilst we have no lights or big band or singers on stage, we don't even have a stage. I find the Biblical orthodoxy to historically Christianity is so much more impacting my life. The whole converting thing in the 7 mountains I feel is trying to force Gods hand, salvation and conversion is Gods work not man's in my newer understanding. I feel working out the great commission is serving and loving and sharing the gospel but it is the Holy Spirit does the transforming. In Hillsong I thought we did the convincing but my own self rightousness and failure showed me I did not effectively convert myself to Christianity now I see it as God is Sovereign and He has a plan and will I can walk in and His will and what Jesus did was core not my works and will. Interesting discussion guys well done. Thanks for making this video very well balanced 👏
This was so refreshing! It reminded me of my youth in the Church. My mom used to really like going to big church’s because she thought their growth meant they were doing something right. So…we went to one of these church’s in Bellevue where the first pastor was either fired or arrested because he exposed himself to minors at a park. The Christian’s, as I recall, were definitely the victims there. The devil was attacking them because they were doing God’s work and the devil was getting scared. At least that’s what they told us in any sermons where they discussed the backlash (but never the actual crime that occurred.) The second administration at the church embezzled church funds and the pastor was a complete jerk. Then we moved to a different state and went to a different where the leadership was ALSO embezzling church money. One of the smaller church’s we went to was where I learned how the church used music to elicit specific emotional reactions. They were definitely doing it with the intent to manipulate. That church preyed specifically on the vulnerable and I think it was an ego thing for the pastor, not just a financial thing. The manipulative pastor was a replacement for a very nice man who taught lessons for living a good life based on scripture. The new guy wasn’t as smart or articulate so he got help from the “Holy Spirit” to convince people that he was a man of God. I saw the same system employed at larger church’s but the effect was usually less concentrated. Like the people at the small church were true believers while the people at the big church’s were moved by the spirit and then they went home and were normal people until the next Sunday. Purity culture was only really harped on in the youth groups at the Baptist church’s my dad went to. I thought it was interesting how the youth pastor framed expectations of the kids in the group. I think he thought that they were all natural perverts and that’s why they needed to avoid tempting situations. Which was probably more a reflection of him than it was of the kids in the group who were pretty good and wholesome.
I would encourage you to go back to Roman Catholicism and helped make it a safer place without abuses. There are no better time than now, as the current RC undergo sex abuse crisis. The crisis is allowed by God to purify His church, and the church may need you to help root out sexual predators from her ministers.
@@hoosinhan Why is it her responsibility to help an institution that is riddled with so many instances of abuse and moral shortcomings. At some point you need to wonder if you should find an institution that better adheres to God's word. -written by a non denominational ex-catholic
@@reactivepidgeon1875 because there are no better institutions than Catholic Church. The best part is the church acknowledge the abuses and make corrective actions, as exemplified by numerous sin and abuses along her 20 centuries of history. The church always reform herself to God s Word. Semper reformanda.
@@reactivepidgeon1875 The history of Catholic church are similiar with the history of old testament nation of Israel. Full of abuses and repentance, misery and joy. The facts that Catholic church always reform herself are because God is her sheperd, her King.
Your thoughts on ritual are (in my opinion)spot on. It is most important in "ecstatic" ritual where your state of mind is fully altered, by rhythm, movement, sounds that use harmonies that hit neuro centers in your brain, and finally breath. Breathing together is the key ingredient. I thought of this as a perfect example for those who don't relate or understand...Matrix 2: Reloaded.
I’m gonna answer the question about world domination from my perspective as a Christian: I’m not interested in taking over the world or controlling people’s lives. I believe that people should have the opportunity to hear Jesus’ message and decide for themselves if they want a personal, individual relationship with God through Christ, or if they want to invest heavily in this brief world. I would give the same message to churches operating the way Hillsong does. You’re absolutely correct it’s not an isolated case. I’ve done my own videos about corporate compromise and systematic corruption based on the research I have through my psychology studies. People are messed up. That’s why Jesus’ sacrifice was necessary.
Yes I believe evangelism should be about (it not always is) sharing the word and letting people freely response. If they want help to understand give them help but never force your opinions or belief on others. Jesus preached that God wants a wiling relationship not a coerced.
Talking about how human sacrifice is necessary to appease a cosmic being is also pretty messed up... It took me 10 years of deconstruction to see how absurd it really is
@@toxendon because you don't understand what the sacrifice was. It wasn't because God just loves drinking human blood. The sacrifice was that God came down to do something that we couldn't do for ourselves because we were incapable of being righteous under the Law. The Law shows us your need of God. The Law still applies in real world consequences whether you believe in the spiritual or not. Theres more to the cross than that, but it's one thing to say you don't believe something it's another thing not to understand it in the first place.
I can definitely relate to the discussion on churches abusing your faith to get more volunteer hours out of you and make you feel guilty for not doing more. Looking back, that was a major contributor to my deconstruction and leaving the Christian belief system. As an Atheist (now), I realize that was a form of what is now termed "spiritual abuse".
That's so true about the rules being different for curvy girls. I had disproportionately large breasts. I was often pulled aside to tell me I was being inappropriate and would cause men to sin. I even got that response when I was wearing a turtle neck sweater once.
Well said! 'Serving' is often highly regarded and at times those not 'serving' can often be looked down upon..but really, it's volunteering! There is a play on words, 'serving' is basically volunteering..there are scriptures used to make people 'serve' to get the 'blessing'...when you remove 'serving ' with volunteering it makes it more real! Lol 😂😂😂😂😂
taylor’s videos are always so well produced and her and drew are both so well spoken and intelligent! I’ve never been particularly religious or christian (and based on their videos and comment sections…I’m pretty okay with that) but their commentary and conversations are always so intriguing and interesting.
I know this is off topic, but as a non-American Jew raised as an atheist/agnostic, this obsession with what people believe is so different from my experience. Most of the Jews I grew up with couldn’t care less what I believed; the issues were only 1) Is your mother Jewish? & 2) Do you follow the correct rules and rituals. I could easily get away with openly admitting atheism, but God forbid I should eat a cheeseburger.
Judaism still puzzles me, especially the tragedy of Israel being next to the Mediterranean but they eat schnitzel because seafood bad, I was raised catholic but only for tradition basically, my family is atheist. I once mentioned to a Jewish friend: but you agree, Jesus was right about many things his reaction was: I don't give a damn about Jesus! Mind blown, I had this tingling down my spine thinking: So this guy doesn't think you should help other people??? Creepy. (Which is dumb of course, altruism is not something Jesus invented.) It's kind of hard to understand how steeped you really are in religion even when you think you're not until something like this happens...
@@c.w.8200 most of the people I grew up with had the attitude that Jesus was a groovy dude, just not the messiah. The bible wasn't a major part of our education.
Most Mega churches in Nigeria operate as a business. They almost always have their own universities, secondary and primary schools, they own chains of cafeterias and restaurants, they own publishing companies also. Yet, they pay no tax because everything is under the canopy of the church
When I hit the dislike button on accident and RU-vid tells me “your feedback will be shared with the creator.” 😭 I didn’t mean it I promise!! Anyway, great talk. I grew up southern baptist and got to witness the shift from hymnal books and pews (60 ppl in the entire church) to a mega church type, highly stylized worship church. Hillsong had a big hand in that shift. I’m not surprised to find out any of this, which is indicative of the bigger issues. You’re right; none of this is an isolated incident.
I like listening to videos while I'm out, and so often have my phone unlocked in my pocket (not paying for premium). Sometimes I'll be looking for the next video and realise the dislike was pressed from it being in my pocket. I undo it when I see it, but I don't want to imagine how many there are where I haven't noticed.
I have a very similar story from the bible teacher I had when I was a senior in high school. He and his then girlfriend had sex before marriage, she got pregnant, and they had a shotgun wedding. He opened up to our class at the end of the school year that he and his wife struggled the first few years of their marriage and he made it seem like they wouldn't of stayed together had she not gotten pregnant. Meanwhile his son that was a result of this premarital sex was a junior in the same school. I never liked that teacher. He made us watch those videos with Kirk Cameron and I never could take him seriously after that. The school I went to had kids from all different "denominations", Reformed, Christian Reformed, Netherlands Reformed. They all tended to use similar doctrine so they just made a Christian High School for all the surrounding towns because god-forbid you go to a public school and actually be tested on your faith on a daily basis. No, instead, go to a building 5 days a week with like-minded people so your faith is firmly cemented and will never be questioned. One of the only good things that came out of going to that school is that I met my husband. We've both since deconstructed. Wow, didn't expect for all of that to come out but your past seemed so similar to mine Taylor, thank you for all you do!
Thanks for sharing this. I was thinking about watching the documentary that you referenced. But you did a great job in sharing what I assumed was the short version. I was an evangelical, missionary, pastor, church founder and planter. You are right in saying all churches behave this way. It's one of the reasons that I left the church. Where do I fit now in church? I am not really sure. If someone asks me for my opinion then I will be honest but I am not on an anti church campaign either.
I‘m a Christian myself, but I highly advise against these unbiblical churches. Especially mega churches. Not all of them are bad, but is have seen and witnessed more bad than good ones. As an ex-charismatic, bands like Hillsong have perfected their way of getting you in an emotional state, which is dangerous without discernment. You could feel like in a trance and it‘s no wonder so many people confuse this almost ethereal atmosphere with the presence of God. I stopped listening to these bands years ago, not just because of the emotional manipulation, but also because of their shady and messed up theology. It‘s a disguise of self glorification and I really feel uncomfortable in such an atmosphere. The only reason I didn‘t give up on the faith because I believe wholeheartedly that god is real. However, I don‘t claim to have all the answers and I don‘t want to be so spiritually arrogant that I see the splinters in everyone else’s eyes, but not the massive bulk of wood in my own.
