Analysis: Core-A Gaming Reacts to Street Fighter V's 8 Frames of Input Lag 

Core-8 Gaming did it again !

I was going to like your comment but it currently has exactly 80 likes.

I don't know if he just sucks at programming or if it was intentional.

i like my name

What if the video had 8 minutes of lag

Fuuuuuuuuuuck. So they intentionally forced out defensive players like me?

knowing this, I well find a way to play Defensively.

the way I see it is that if it won't/can't be patched out we just have to accept it as part of the game

The plot thickens. Combofiend says "Actually, it's not a deliberate design choice, I think that the interpretation of what Sugiyama may have said was incorrect."

Core-A Gaming So they're going to fix it? Please tell me they're going to fix it.

Yeah. Honestly, 147 isn't bad at all. Wish I could do that.

Practice, my friend

@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 147 is insanely , mine are around 190 on a good day

same

@@ultraheaven8968 Its audio man, your 190 is visual.

MoPHL first reply after 3 years huh. With 371 likes

welp

Yey

@@thefatchincat7017 5 years to early

Unfortunately not gonna convince mouth breathers in the FGC to stop throwing shade

CO SIGN BRO

This. Look at the amount of whiffed normals in 5 and 4. You couldn't do that shit as much in 4 b/c top players could whiff punish you 80% of the time. Now people pre-emptively whiff buttons because they can't react to shit like dash ins. The 8f lag was a stupid choice.

combofriend *did* say its a read based game. sfv is all about READS. this are combofiends words nearly verbatim. so 8frames makes sense in terms of game design. i wouldnt be surprised if its a result of a rushed product as well, however.

I don't think that's true. Moves in SF5 take about on average 2-3 frames longer than their equivalents did in SF4. That 2-3 frames of lag is also the difference between the lag of SF4 and SF5. So whiff punishing isn't more difficult because of the lag. I'm not saying that whiff punishing isn't more difficult in general though. Almost everything in SF5 has more startup than SF4. Snake Eyes look is one of the first people to complain about the 8 frames. But let's look at his gameplay across both games. Snake Eyes whiff punished a lot in SF4. He's still whiff punishing a lot in SF5. The big difference is what he gets off of a whiff punish. Zangief had five 4F normals to use in footsies and they all led to something else. Zangief's only 4F normal in SF5 is c.lp and it only cancels into itself. Whiff punishing doesn't benefit him and most players. Most characters don't have a good whiff punish button. The fast buttons don't lead to anything and the slow buttons are too slow. I think it's a matter of him not adapting. Missing an attempted whiff punish is also a lot worse than it is in SF4. In SF4 you had plenty of time to do something else after a whiff punish. But the extra recovery on moves means they have more time to respond. And the extra startup means that it's not turn anymore after whiffing a move. And the difficulty reacting to dashes less to do with the lag and more with the fact that dashes are faster in SF5. Ryu's dash went from 18F to 16F while Ken's went from 18F to 15F. And if you add the 2-3 frame difference between SF4 and SF5's lag, you get dashes that are about as difficult to react to as 3S dashes. These are all design decisions.

If they wanted the gameplay to be similar, they would have reduced the startup frames of all moves by the same number of frames of lag introduced, or equivalently given all moves more cooldown frames.

I was watching a replay and i got hit but even in the button display it showsme bloxking. Fuck this game

Thanks to damage scaling, it can go on for a few more years.

@@maximumkillmtg still going on

Still going

Still going

Still going

Syncing up both platforms in cross play may have been the intended reason for the lag. When the game first came out on steam, there were a lot of people who recommended turning off v-sync. A lot of the same people who said that have now recommended to leave it on for consistency sake.

I just came for Guile's Street Fighter EX's theme :)

most PC players will turn off v sync.

I don't. I probably should since I have a g sync panel. I don't feel like going back into that INI file though.

yeah screw that. the vast majority of the connections I've had, it was perfectly smooth. I don't accept a match with anything less than 4 bars.

Lazy and idiotic how? Isn't game design about making decisions to say your game in the way you want it to be played? Or is the phrase "more input lag" going to be perceived badly no matter what?

+Fernando Banda Fighting games have always been games which allowed players a bit of creativity in how they play. Some people play hyper-aggressive where they're always on the offensive, others like to turtle and wait for their opponents make mistakes that they can punish with no real risk. This is also true of actual fighting (Hell, that's why boxing has a point system.). Why should players that like to play this be punished while the others are rewarded? If someone plays a highly defensive style they're already at a disadvantage because they'll lose to a timeout if they can't find good openings, why make it worse by making it artificially harder for them? Not to mention, grapplers, like Zangief, have very weak tools when it comes to outright aggression, compared to other characters in the roster. So, for characters like that you need to play a bit more defensively and look for an opening. When you're opening is, literally, guessing if it'll happen that's when you can call a design decision idiotic.

Tejan455 I don't claim to know the ins and outs of Street Fighter, especially V. But game design IS about leading the player to do certain things in a set of rules. For example, I'd like to play a character that runs very fast and can do a sort of hit-and-run tactic because that's my style in other games. But I can't because Street Fighter isn't like that. Same here. Maybe SFV isn't mean to be exactly like those before it. Play styles will always be relative. Having more input lag punishes one kind of behavior, but it can still lead to different playstyles. And it is very definitely not lazy nor idiotic.

Fernando Banda Here's the difference, they have the characters that are like that in the game still. That's why Gief and Laura are so low-tier.

That's why the parry system was so beautiful.

I agree wholeheartedly

Thanks for the support!

Yeah, I tried Revelator the other day and was thinking just that. Those are definitely not noob friendly games though :)

Core-A Gaming Definitely true. Though I think both games offer enough Tutorials and ways to learn the game so that anyone who puts some effort in can learn them.

ggx is my fav. and i been loyal to sf from the 1st game. been playing games since the 80's. i definately fewl ggx is a far superior build.

if you are theory

IMETHANBRADBERRY

+Core-A Gaming your reactions are Fast!

But...I like _Core_-*8* Gaming.

@@CoreAGaming SSSLAAAAAAMMMMMM

Its 100% no guess. Company's add the delay to established franchises in order to give casuals an handicap. This was explicitly stated for Brawl as Sakurai added all kinds of casual handicaps. With one of their buzz phrases for SFV on realease was "everyone can be like Diago" Yall are smash dudes so from an FGC vet i can say with 100% certainty that CapCom casualized the game in a major way.

@@jdrmanmusiqking you mean give casuals an upper-hand? and i agree every major game franchise has had some sort of nerfing to appeal to a wider, more casual audience. i personally dont mind the trend that much if its done well but adding 8 frames of lag is a pretty bad way to do it imo

NAJIM audiotory reaction, his visual reaction is a lot slower

Ye, that’s like top 1%

he’s asian

Vinttage riddles

a lot? same people are dominating the scene, just as they did in sf4. If nobody could be consistent in this game, than you could say it hurts the game a lot. But right now, it is just a minimal issue that some people want to whine about. At the end of the day, 99% of players can't differentiate 8f of lag and 4f of lag.

you got that right i just hate online lag

That's got nothing to do with lag, their decision-making and adaptability is on average a lot better than a casual online scrub. It just takes a tool out of their toolbox and forces the meta of the game towards playing derp mode ken.

Lol MFW i can differentiate just 2 frames of lag. Well that because I play melee and our game works on 3.5 frames of lag. Any more and you just feel like certain tech is off. Because it is off. 1 frame of lag is difficult to detect but still doable. It just becomes more of a nuisance than unbearable. Anyone who plays the game competitively will notice 4 more frames. Especially if they were playing the less lag version. It is much easier to go from more lag to less lag than it is to go from less lag to more lag.

They are talking bout input lag. I doubt your monitor or TV is capable of just 1 frame of input lag. Anything under 4 is going to cost you a lot of money. Average is 4-7. SFV has forced roughly double that on the ps4 version of the game, 13+frames. That's essentially 1/4 of every 60 frames is delayed. You hit a button it takes 13+frames before it registers/displays to the screen. It doesn't matter what TV or monitor you play on with the ps4 version, every display device will get 13+ frames of input lag via the game code.

they do. Any more than 2 frames will piss off anyone playing melee, myself included. Even then they still prefer virtually lagless CRTs

still waiting on that melee hd.. :(

Gamecube's also only output analog video which would induce lag to convert to a digital format for LCD monitors.

Smash games have no input buffering and generally speaking much tighter reaction / execution windows than street fighter. Tiny differences in timing like when you hit a player's shield can lead to missing ATs like an L-cancel that create a huge punish window for the other player. It's part familiarity and part design but the first two smash games just play totally differently with even a small amount of latency introduced.

I forgot that a lot of stuff in street fighter can actually be buffered. That's likely why the lag is a lot more tolerable. However, it's not true that Smash has zero input buffering. Melee onward, you can buffer actions in shield using the c-stick In brawl specifically, if you land on the ground while airdodging, you can buffer 10 frame perfect inputs during the ten frames right before landing so that they come out right after hitting the floor I'm pretty sure there's something else I'm forgetting as well but whatever

Exactly, I was playing 3S and was getting grabbed on punish opportunities because I thought my reactions were fine. Had to re work my reaction going back to older sfs

Same, back in Brawl I didn't have those 6 frames of input lag in SMash 4 due to button delay...back in Brawl I could powershield on reaction...but Smash 4 you have to read ahead of time...which is quite annoying...I can literally see most players moves coming, but due to the game I either make so many misinputs from pressing buttons too fast or am not adapting well enough.

This is from blocking Super arts too. Like Ken's, I forgot how quick you had to be. In SFV, if you're too quick. It does that damn MKX type buffering in which your move won't come out at all/getting later inputs than the previous ones.

I would be mad if they changed it this year. I'd rather have them change the game next year than changing it mid season.

they got story and the last batch of characters to finish +capcom cup we ain't getting frame fixes anytime soon. not to mention the season 2 character line up

Nice catch!

yeah, I know the feeling if thinking you're going crazy because if lag increases

Same here lol

Lol, was the video even up for 8 minutes?

You're right, i saw an empty comment section and thought it would be cool to comment something. Now, since i didn't want to comment something like ''wow i am early let me make a joke'' i tried leaving a compliment since the quality of your videos is pretty consistent. =)

looking back now i probably should have said something like ''wooooo new video!!!''

No, I like the compliment better lol

Now that im done watching the video i can say the it was a ''Great Video as always!!''. Seriously i'm not a big fan of the FGC, i just play SFV for fun and i'm always blown away by your videos. They are really well made :D

Thanks brah!

remember vanilla SF4 sucked balls we talk about ULTRA sf4 and 3S not street fighter 3 and SF4 give the game a while and it will get better because they always do

@@mineerthegamer its been 3 years and irs gotten worse. Sf4 series had a peak lifespan in its first 4.

@@danielbenitez4120 Oh yeah shits fuuuucked man, eh hind sight is 20/20 as usual I guess

Ultra4 is still a step back from 3s. 5 is an even further step back. Sucks to see sf going in this direction.

@@kozmosius not going to lie I hate 3s the parry was a stupid mechanic that was bad for street fighter, the balance was awful, and wiff charging gives me an anurism. I'd much rather have another alpha 3 or darkstalkers 3 which were both far better games that should have influenced Street fighter more than they did.

ManowarHeigou o

no need, sfv is dying a slow, slow death... its up to capcom to adapt.

Alright i'll rephrase what he said for you, it's dying a slow death for anyone who's not stupid and value competitive play on ground, not underwater.

It doesn't make it easier to get jumped in on because the game has more jump frames. You actually have MORE time to react (one frame lol but still) to a jumpin in SFV than in SF4 for characters that are in both games like Ryu.

You don't need to turn anything off. Using a G-Sync monitor supercedes in game V-sync and lowers input lag.

PC version itself is not tournament standard. but at WNF they using it and probably with customized settings.

More than likely to artificially reduce the lag as much as possible. If you want faster response times I do see it becoming the standard though either way. No one wants inconsistent play, it could really mess up your strats.

they did make the change to both PC and console, but PC users has access to config files and are able to turn off v-sync

the 8 frame input lag is also present on PC as well, but if you turn off the the v-sync it will lower the input lag to 4.

You have no power here, weeb.

***** Weeb sympathizers will be shown no mercy!

***** Delete all the anime off your hard drive! Weeb!

They patched it now. It's the same (or faster) than every other fighting game (3-4 frames). Average input lag in any modern fighter is 3-5 frames.

it's mostly defensive players that the lag affects.

If you're a reactive punisher (i.e anyone who plays a grappler) You're gonna get boned. Even at an intermediate level u can feel it. I just thought it was my friends TV.

You played sfv and it felt responsive? Were you playing other games on a plasma screen tv with 8 adapters or something?

i'm a total scrub when it comes to fighting games, but i play a lot of 3rd person action games like bayonetta or dmc and the first thing i thought when trying out the beta months ago was "damn this game feels unresponsive and wrong" you really don't have to be a top tier fighting game player to notice, just someone who plays a fair amount of games that require quick reactions and timing

genitur I've probably been spending too much time under lag conditions that I don't notice it.

The faster the gameplay gets the harder it is to react. The whole idea of SFV was its an approachable and playable game, not that its a twitch reaction competition. This would make it much easier for other people to get in, as you're not butting heads with the ultra fast reaction times.

Brett Stevens Well that's why I mentioned reducing the startup times, and then also reduce the lag. It's particularly strange that the PC version only has 4f of lag, if what PR Rog said in the video is true. If that's the case, I don't see why 8f on PS4 would be intentional.

Speeding up the game isn't going to fit their modus operandi. Incredibly quick execution based games exist in a lot of places. BlazBlue, KoF, most of your popular "anime" fighters will serve that. SFV is trying to be as approachable as possible, this lag is just another way to level the playing field.

Hiku Its my understanding that its 8 frames unless you fiddle with ini files and other away from game settings, correct? If this is true, then my assumption hasn't changed.

Brett Stevens I wouldn't know. Maybe it is 8f by default on PC. I'd have to look that up. Though I still don't understand why they'd increase response delay rather than adjust startup frames of moves. According to Core A Gamer in the video, the increased startup lag (compared to SF4) is the same as the overall change made to overheads startup frames.

It would definitely require a pretty big rebalance of the game, but Capcom did say they are going to tweak the game based on feedback so who knows

What are you talking about? SF easily outsells MK 2 to 1.

Sadly not as of late

Sorry to tell you , but MKX is running circles around SFV in sales.

Sora MKX has been out for more than a year longer than SFV. SFV also has not really been released yet, Capcom and Sony haven't even advertised it yet until the game will be finished.

Jokes on you I still play sm4sh on CemU

No johns

@@austinpowers3659 What? No it doesn't. Ultimate has about 6 frames of native input lag, pretty much the same as Tekken 7. cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/13626856/Screen_Shot_2018_12_14_at_1.17.51_PM.png Where on earth are you getting the number 24 from?

@@jitsekuilman2492 woah your still playing carrying about the pedophile community in 2020 lmao

​@@austinpowers3659 "Someone caught me lying and I don't have any kind of defense, so I'll just shout 'pedophile' and hope nobody notices."

Agree it's still fun as hell but removing extra frames would only improve it. Games would be much more methodical and mindless aggression would be punished to hell.

MrNeo If you play like a braindead, yeah it's that fun lol smh.

heavytransit No hate on the game, the game is that bad, let's be honest.

Wether or not you adapt has nothing to do with it. A lot of people complaining about it are people who benefit from it. Because everyone has the same limitation doesn't mean it's healthy for the game or pushes the game forward. Exemple being SSBB, they dumbed down the game to the point it became a camping experience where players won by time-out and nobody watched the streams. The more players "adapted" to the slower gameplay, the least the game was supported and it died.

Ramza Beoulves When you put it that way, it makes more sense. Thanks

Matthew Juliana That reply is way too polite for the internet. We need more people like you to lead us through the dark times good sir. Have a nice day!

Ramza Beoulves ♥

*****​​ Been playing sf since super turbo including spin off such as the alpha series, capcom fighting evolution, Ex series, etc and I didn't find the lagtency input particularly overwhelming; in fact, I didn't notice any input delay at all. Yea, just another way to protect your ego. Same with purposely picking a low tier character ( or refusing to pick a high tier character) just so you can say-- or subconscious think--," Well, if I used a high tier character I would have won." We all subconsciously try to protect our ego (in regards to everything in life, not just SF), and this is just yet another scapegoat to deflect responsibility and lack of skill when we lose. 

You are part of the problem

Duranarts care to elaborate?

False, calling out your bullshit. I had no knowledge of any intentional input delay but immediately began to complain online that the game was off, it was laggy, my moves weren't coming out even though my inputs were 100% correct.

Omega Prophet "complain online" "complain ONLINE" "COMPLAIN ONLINE!"

Yeah, I should put the more crucial sources in the description.

Yeah, Ibuki was announced like... yesterday. Follow Street Fighter on social networks.