ASOIAF THEORY: The Secret Origin of Dragons: Part 1 

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There have been documented cases of female Komodo Dragons not being near a male for 7 plus years, then laying an egg that is essentially a clone of herself!

If you can smell Kings Landing 5 miles away now, imagine how bad it was before Septon Barth.

Dragons are also said to be as intelligent as a man, if not more. Perhaps the blood magic fused not only wyrm and drake, but men as well. Even as dragons contain human DNA, dragonriders contain dragon DNA which explains the occasional Targ dragon baby. Perhaps the polluted gene lines require maintenance through magic. The first empire developed the technique and forgot it, leading to the collapse of both dragons and riders. The Targs rediscovered the technique for fusing men into dragons independently, much as Liebnitz and Newton developed the theory of calculus without reference to each other's work. They then forgot the technique after the doom, much as the Empire of the Dawn lost the technique.

So that's the controversial ideas posited in Unnatural History, that made Baelor the Blessed burn the work; That dragons and perhaps Valyrians themselves are the product of blood magic.

Tyrion was similarly described by his sister to Oberyn Martell when they came to visit. Oberyn said he was disappointed when he pulled back the cover and found that Tyrion did not exhibit those traits.

Pardon if you bring this up, but I want to make the comment before my scatterbrained mind forgets, and I was 20 min into Part 1 when it hit me. For reference, I have a degree in Biology with a heavy course load in genetics. I can't remember if the exact number of dragons brought to Dragonstone by the Targ exodus from Valyria was mentioned, but if I recall by the time of the Targ civil war, it was 20-22 active hatched dragons, with who knows how many eggs. That makes me think that the number of dragons on Dragonstone at the exodus was quite small, especially since the only dragons mentioned during Aegon's conquest are Aegon's, Rhaenys', and Visenya's. Balerion was said to be the largest, and based on a quote from - I think - Jorah in the books to Dany, the Targ dragons were war dragons, meaning to me as a Biologist, that they were of one specific stock of dragon that was bred for war. So already by the time of the Doom, the Targ dragons had a lower genetic pool than dragons in general pre-Doom. The genetic bottlenecking that would occur post-Doom is STAGGERING, and if we assume there was only 3 dragons post-Conquest and that the 20-22 dragons of the Dance were descended from those three... well, shit, it is no wonder that dragons went extinct. Let me explain. There is a concept called Minimum Viable Population. This is the minimum amount a population needs to maintain genetic diversity in the wild. Populations that are lower than the MVP are at serious risk of extinction due to a lack of gene flow and the prevalence of inbreeding. Inbreeding introduces into a population 1) physical deformations (the smaller size of dragons after Balerion, the complete breakdown and regression of dragons born post-Dance), 2) higher propensity of mental disorder (Cannibal and Silverwing), 3) Lower immune system and genetic defect (Again, post-Dance dragons), and 4) Infertility, including stillborn offspring (Dragon eggs not hatching, hatching malformed, or eggs not being laid at all). There is another term called the co-efficient of inbreeding that refers to the chance of inheriting a disorder or having trouble conceiving/being infertile when the offspring of inbreeding. There's lots of calculation that goes into it, but the more successive generations of inbreeding you have, the higher and higher the co-efficient of inbreeding becomes, making it so ridiculously likely over generations without any gene flow (genes being added to the population from another group of the same species) that the chance of getting dragon offspring that are completely fucked after only a couple generations at this level of inbreeding are pretty much guaranteed. Post-Dance, the only dragons left were Cannibal, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, and Morning, with the only one in Targ hands being Morning. So all they had was Morning, an incredibly inbred dragon, and a bunch of ridiculously inbred eggs. In fact, it really does not take much inbreeding at all to result in infertility and stillborn offspring, especially with successive generations of direct sibling-sibling marriage. The only way to reset the co-efficient of inbreeding in a population is by adding new genes from a new population, which the Targ's NEVER DID because all the other dragons of Valyria WERE FREAKIN' ASHES, YO! (Biology gets me excited, I do not apologize) So what if there was no grand conspiracy to destroy the Targ dragons? The Maesters didn't even NEED to poison them, if they did so. The Targ dragons were screwed the moment Valyria fell, because their population was no longer genetically viable. They went the same way as the tasmanian devil, and the same way that so many endangered species in the real world are going currently. A species cannot survive on that small a population, and with the kind of author GRRM is and how he's included so many biological and evolution-based concepts in his worldbuilding, he HAD to have known that. It feels pretty on purpose, especially considering: DANY'S DRAGONS. Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal are never described as deformed, or ill, or anything that would worry about genetic defects in them. Drogon is even described as the second coming of Balerion. WELL, if we consider the Elissa Farman story and link the dragon eggs she sold to fund her expedition to Dany's three, it makes perfect sense. Elissa was born in 29 AC, making her 25 years old when she cold the 3 eggs in 54 AC. Dragon eggs can last a long time before hatching, as evidenced in Dany's dragons (I dunno if there's reference to the length of time of hatching other eggs, so that's the reference I have). The eggs were specifically from Dreamfyre's clutch, who I couldn't find a hatch date for Dreamfyre except that it was during Aegon I's reign. So if we assume Dany's dragon eggs were the one's Elissa sold, that puts those eggs at between about 250-300 years old by the time Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal hatched from them. This, coupled with them being from Dreamfyre's clutch, who was only separated from Valyrian stock by about 100-150 years, and there is nothing I know of stating how long Dreamfyre was an egg or which dragons she descended from, it is definitely probable and, in my opinion, quite likely that the reason Dany's dragons ARE healthy when the latter Targ dragons were not is because their co-efficient of inbreeding is magnitudes smaller than the last dragons, who were all deformed and stillborn (and Dany's dragons are war dragons as well, further linking her eggs to Elissa's). They could have saved their dragons had there just been more of them to breed between, or if they'd found eggs somewhere else, anywhere else, to inject new genes into the system. This goes even FURTHER, because of the Targ's own inbreeding. Plenty had trouble conceiving or had malformed or genetically weak/ill children, right? But they DID occasionally outbreed with other families. And madness is associated with the family, and what was one sign of inbreeding? Increase in mental illnesses. Now, we don't know how things will play out in the books, obviously, and I hope it's a lot different than the show. The last inbreeding reset in the Targ line was Aegon V marrying out to Betha Blackwood. That, essentially, wipes the slate clean there. But Aegon's children married (Jaehaerys II and Shaera), and then THEIR children married (Aerys II and Rhaella), making Daenerys's co-efficient of inbreeding so high that it would be a literal miracle for her to carry a child to term even before Mirri Maz Dur. Aerys madness could have come from, or been exacerbated by, mental illnesses inherited through being so freakishly inbred. This does not mean that Dany will go nuts like the show, but it DOES lend credence to her loss of Rhaego (caused by Mirri, I know, but stick with me here), her inability to bear children, and the apparent miscarriage at the end of ADWD. It also helps explain some of Viserys's psychosis, him being a magnitude more inbred than even Aerys. And which Targ-kid has a clean slate when it comes to inbreeding? Jon. Jon would be fine due to Rhaegar marrying outside the Targ line with a Stark, a noble house who *checks notes* had no Targs in their line leading to Lyanna whatsoever. tl;dr Dany's dragons are strong and not deformed due to them being from less inbred eggs, the Targ dragons died due to intense inbreeding leading to infertility and genetic, physical, and mental disorder, which mimics the Targ line's own difficulties caused by inbreeding as well. There didn't need to be a conspiracy to rid the world of dragons. They were screwed the moment Valyria blew up and the Targ's inbred them into extinction.

"Remember who you are. The dragons know. Do you?"

So if there are "dragons eggs" in Winterfell, it is likely they are these wyrms, white and sightless, but fierce nonetheless. Maybe that's why Winterfell has that thermal heating- for the firewyrms.

We NEED Aerea Targaryen's story made into a horror movie linked with the GOT and HOTD lore. Who agrees? 🔥

Very well written and presented. I never made the connection between the blind baby Targs and dragons, and blind subterranean creatures (like possibly firewyrms). Excellent catch there. You've put all the pieces in place to rock my world with part 2. Get hyped!

I have to tell you: this is one of the very best theories I've heard. No one else seems to be talking about it either. Nicely done! And I thought I'd heard all of the theories!

Nice Job, very well thought out and presented. I loved every moment of it. The fire wyrm quote about them dying in ice made me think of Good Queen Alysanne and how her dragon hated the wall and wouldn't go past it.

Per GRRM " the 😈 is in the details" ...great detective work at piecing these hidden clues together!!

Dany's Rhaego was also full of graveworms,Mirri said.

The Great Empire of the Dawn was one of the best new discoveries out of TWOIAF and I agree that the History of Westeros and LML video was excellent at gathering all the clues.

I have no idea how I haven't come across your channel until very recently but im glad I have!

In the world book we are told about caves of eyeless vampire bats. I’ve had bad feelings about this for a while.. like the deformed babies weren’t burned but kept for study and/or the vampire bats were the result of the first failed trials.

I found you through one of LmL's recent livestreams where he talks about this idea and mentions this video. Your work is really good and I cant believe I hadn't heard of your channel before. Subscribed!

So if the Valyreans interbred with wyrms/wyverns to gain fire magic or dragon and or dragon control, did the Starks/ firstmen interbreed with the Singers or possibly their magical get(in the show at least( the Others to gain warging/green seers sight? They could be children of the Night King(book)...

Always a good listen and I like how bring the pieces together. The link with wyms and wyverns and dragons George makes rather clear with at least the title of Barth's book, and Gogossos stories, and Aerya, and the occasional deformed Valyrian babies. The GEotD was one of, if not the very best LmL/HoW collaborations as well and a gold mine. I look forward to how you'll evaluate the Valyrian nightmarish experimental chimera approach with the older GEotD and other references that dragons pre-date Valyria.

So Dragons were genetically crafted by the Empire of the Dawn. And the Valyrians were slaves genetically crafted from the humans and Dragons.

I’ve always been interested as what role the Targaryen’s filled in Valyria. I assume it can’t have been blacksmithing or construction, or would have made more swords and made Kings Landing and the Kings road from dragonstone. Could they have been dragon breeders ? They seemed to multiply in numbers after the conquest, and why were they so keen on keeping their own bloodline pure ?

It's a shame I found your channel so late, and under lesser circumstances. Bed ridden with a nasty cold. You're videos help pass the time. They're also so darn informative and thoroughly done. I appreciate and admire the time and effort that must have gone into these vids. :)

It's amazing how you've blown up so quickly but it speaks to the quality of your content!

You explain it so plainly. It is awesome to watch your videos!

The five forts have always been of great interest to me, great video!

Excellent !!! Videos are always so well presented and the subject is always great. One of my favorite ASOIAF channels.

Lovely work here; seeing someone who values knowledge is inspiring. I appreciate the dose of adorable at the end too! 32:53

Excellent video, you do this soooo well!! Looking forward to the next one. Hugs & sunshine & happy weekend 🌞N

Wonderful as always! Since you referred to early versions of mythological dragons that were wingless, I wanted to add Tolkien to your list. His early dragons were wingless and referred to as worms. The dragons were bred by Morgoth from some unknown stock. And Morgoth’s fortress of Angband delved deep underground. The first dragon seen outside of Angband was Glaurung, also known as the Great Worm and the Worm of Greed. Glaurung had four legs, breathed fire and was wingless. He is said to have sired the rest of his race. So once again I think we can see the influence of Tolkien on GRRM. Perhaps a related idea is that the Orcs were created by Morgoth from Elves he had captured and twisted. Thus showing a variety of genetic type of experiments in Tolkien’s world. Although he probably wouldn’t have used that terminology. I’m excited to see what you have connected about the Valyrians! I have come back to add that Saruman bred Orcs and Men to create his fighting Urak-hai. And that a good part of Saruman’s fall was his rejection of the natural world for one technologically controlled. Exposing the evil of going against nature was important to Tolkien and might play into the ideas GRRM is using here. “The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep,” reminds me of Valyaria.

Wow this makes Gurm's dragons so much more unique. So well spotted on the wyrm and serpent connection! I'll be picturing the dragons as a lot more snake-like in future. Thanks for the great vid!

I have watched all of your videos at least twice now and each time i find them even more compelling. Thank you so much for continuing to provide us with these absilute gems!

Really well done! Nice pace, paced full of info. Congrats!

I absolutely LOVE your videos! They're my favorite of the ASOIAF theory channels on RU-vid ❤

This is fabulous. Thank you for your hard work!

Wow, I just found your channel. Truly, I have been missing out. Love the video.

Hum.. I wonder now if Valirians are the result of the great empire fire magic experiences with humans... Those mysterious people from the far east might have come across a people of shepherds in a land close to volcanos and rich in fire wyrms... Just as they were doing elsewhere, if the volcanic aspect was presented.Then they enslaved the peoples and made them breed with wyrms creating the dragons. In time they built several buildings with dragons, melting store (the Citadel tower, Sea chair seat in Pyke, and so on...). Their empire collapsed yet the slaves that were the product of breeding with wyrms still existed. With their genetics and knowledge they slowly started to get their own dragons, up until they built their own empire backed by slavery too. Lovely video, so much food for thought!

Omg… a woman making ASOIAF theory vids 🙊 A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

I look forward to seeing your channel grow

Great video. Looking forward to part 2!

Totally ready for more of this series

Excellent presentation I love dragons and happy to know about this wise man in more detail thanks

Fantastic !! Can’t wait for the next one 😃💞

You have once again put forward a hell of an interesting idea!!!

Can't remember how often I watched this video, but it's still one of my favourite ASOIAF theory videos out there. Great work, blew my mind! Just a little side note from Germany: In the Nibelungenlied, the German "version" of the legends around Siegfried/Sigurd (and if you ask Germans: the original/ancestral version :P), Fafnir is not actually referred to as "dragon", but as "lindwurm", with "lind" being derived from the old high German word "lint" for "snake", and "wurm" basically meaning the same back then. So the notion of dragons as snake-like creatures was actually pretty strong in old German as well! :)

Oh! I so much LOVED this video!!!

Very good, jumping into Pt 2 now ☺️

So well written! I loved this video and all its well presented information

Great video, I love your content

Fingers crossed that there'll be something in part two addressing whether or not dragons can hatch dragon eggs on their own, and if not why not. Seems obvious that they SHOULD be able to, cause shouldn't a species be able to propagate itself? But it's always stuck out to me that there's actually no evidence or mention of this in the books, and all discussion around hatching dragons surrounds Valerians or other humans doing it, which seems awfully strange when you think about it. I've really wanted someone with better knowledge of things to do a video on hatching dragon eggs that focused more on that little bit of oddness. If they're the result of blood magic tho, then maybe they really are strangely tied to humans in that way, since they wouldn't be a naturally occurring species at all. (my second theory is that they CAN, but those dragons would not be ride-able, hence the custom of taking the egg from the parent early and placing it in the cradle of a human baby. But then you'd think ONE of those crazy Targaryens would get desperate enough to let a dragon hatch it's egg. On the other hand, maybe they didn't know/think to try that till they were already out of dragons.) Anyway, very interesting video, and I'm looking forward to part 2!

Your channel is amazing! Please come back and do more!!!

He was the wisest man the ever service hand so I don't want to hear anyone else say s*** about Tywin being the greatest hand cuz he wasn't. Barth beat him by light years

This was fantastically well researched and presented

This is the content I keep wanting in the ASOIAF community 😍😍

Great as always !

Looking forward to more of your videos thanks

Agreed! Moving to part 2!!

When you mentioned the snake dragons I remembered the scythian then dacian then stolen by the Romans the draco standard, that was snake like with a wolfish head. The geotd whose main influences are ancient China and Japan, the dragons there were probably fire wyrms in fact in Japanese the main word for dragons being orochi AKA giant serpent. There were two symbol evolutions the dragon in valyrian style that copied the fire wyrm + wyvern, and the stark who's dragon ended up becoming a wolf once they came into contact with direwolves

Ahh yeah! Another Disputed Lands video!!!!!!!

Interesting channel. Surprised I hadn't come across before

Septon Barth defenetly deserves more attention from the fans. Great video !! I havent seen videos about this great Hand of the King as detailed as this one. 😊

There were past pole shifts. Dorne used to be North. It was covered in ice and there was an ice bridge over the step stones. Another pole shift is coming and then the sun will rise in the west and set in the east.

I need more of this in my life and I am soooooo sooooo happy you included the house of the worm in this as many people miss it out. Its also included as a place on the ''planetos'' map. so it is technically cannon. I am now going to binge watching your videos :D x

Love your channel, subbed❤

Thank you! This is great!

Great video as always. These babies being born with wings makes me think of The City of the Winged Men in the far far east. Perhaps at some point in Valaria's history of combining human and dragon dna some winged men were produced and born healthy and able to survive. But left Valaria to settle in the far far east.

So happy to have discovered your channel. Many thanks to Robert@ In Deep Geek.

Excellent narration. I dislike those who present GoT material using too much slang. Your scholarly presentation is in stark contrast and dearly welcome.

Excellent!!! Thank you very much

This video just made me realize something in mentioning chimeras. Tyrion is very much a chimera, so was Rhago. I think Tyrion will ride Rhaegal

Thx. Great work.

Here's an idea you could consider. The Great Battle for the Dawn that was fought to bring back the light and summer. What if the battle wasn't just fought for summer, but for kingship, symbolized by the possession of a mighty sword named Dawn that had been forged from the heart of a fallen star? Like the more recent Dance of the Dragons, that was started over one son possessing the king's sword?

This is my first visit to your channel, I think I'll be back 😊

Excellent!It's Amanda time!!!

I know this is off topic but I’d love to hear what your thoughts are on Dark Star. Keep up the great work

This video often repeats itself at different times.

Instead of dragons flame forging the Five Forts and the base if the Hightower, maybe it was firewyrms that these ancient peoples of the Age of the Dawn used. Then possibly the dragons didn't come until later during Valyrian times with the combining of the wyrms and wyverns (and the blood magic) as Barth suggests.

Just today I was angry at someone on FB because of work and I was like: you don’t want wake the dragon, do you? Then you posted this!

Reminds me of the book of Enoch, where Angels and Men laid together and brought forth all sorts of Chimera to the earth including the nephillim and other monstrosities such as the cyclops

Holy cow!! Thanks!!

"They died thought. I must remember that, cling to that... ...They were creatures of heat and fire and they didn't love the ice" If this theory is true I think we found the dragon kryptonite. Dragons will be suffer against the WW in the books, Alysanne already suggest that silverwing didn't wanted to go beyond the wall, I think is reasonable to believe is because of their hate of ice.

I kinda favor the idea that Dragons are akin to the SoIaF version of dinosaurs, but never went through a hard extinction event, so not only did remnant populations survive to early recorded time (Ashai), but that close descendants (Wyvens and firewyrms) could be engineered with blood magic to recreate an ancestral duplicate, much like the way they talk about reverse engineering large birds back into pseudo-dinosaurs.

I think in the world of LOTR, morgoth created the flying dragons from similar worm-like creatures - there's some interesting parallels :)

Septon Barth= GRRM cameo in the Books 😆

I'm like #800 love how you break things down...

Excellent video!!

So he was a man of low barth?

LML was discussing this and sent us here. The video is as impressive as he said.

See, this is the shit I thought about before even reading the books and just watching the first season. I figured that Dany would eventually learn that Targaryens had the ability to transform into dragons. Of course that turned out to not be true, but I'm glad this all seems to be leading to something, instead of being dropped after the hints in the first book.

Good stuff. I've long believed that dragons were created from wyverns through fire and blood magic in the Great Empire of the Dawn. Firewyrms could easily factor into that.

Just a random thought, but maybe gray scale is a disease created by a side effect of making dragons, and this is what happens when Targs get infected with gray scale?

Thank you four your insightful videos! I think GRRM once said that in the past there were dragons all overt the planet. The world book mentions dragon bones found in Westeros as well. That seems to me like they may be naturally occurring. Or they were at some time in the distant past. Perhaps the Valyrians modified them with interspecies breeding. I think they almost certainly did something to their own genetics with blood magic and breeding!

I think a dragon was turned human by a preast from shadow lands and mated that's where the targaryen bloodline comes from

Very good explanation

Those deformed babies sound like Dany's and were the price for blood magic.

Maybe the starks have night kings DNA in them after the Nights king had a child with the female white walker?

I think "Dragons" as they exist now, with the psychic connection to Valyrians and the fact the Targaryens and Velaryons have half dragon-baby still borns the ancient Valyrians created them from Wyverns with blood magic or something of that nature, kind of the opposite of what the Children did with the Others

Shame this hasn’t gotten more attention I would think tons of people wonder about this, Regardless super good vid walked me through it very well.

The maps show the 3 head dragon and a bigger dragon from another land, bigger older so there is something to that.