A detailed comparison of B0XX smash DI vs Gamecube controller smash DI that will help keep the community informed as we enter legality discussions. b0xx.com / ssbmhax
2 things: gcc can double quartercircle sdi in 3/3 frames. Its hard, but possible. Maybe not the most consistent input. gcc quarter circle sdi does not on average take 4 frames. I would claim 2/3 to be very consistent. also, while those ranges are what is possible on gcc instead of 1.0 like on box controllers, because of PODE, normally you far more close to 1.0 values for the first sdi anyways, especially if you sdi with some preaccel, which you should be for quartercircle burst.
Thanks for the explanation of SDI. not many people are using B0XX style controllers yet. in the grand scheme. It’s definitely gotten noticed however with the recent wave of excitement from Panda’s GC alternative GC is still the preferred controller by a large amount. B0XX Style Controllers are by design, a more accessible controller for anyone who suffers from hand problems/any other motor function disabilities. i do really hope that there is a useful solution that can put this newest discord to rest. Thanks Hax!
about 20% of the melee community is on a B0XX or B0XX ripoff now, they're definitely growing in use. And I think that percentage will only increase as the melee player base ages and hand problems become harder to avoid.
It's funny to think about the boxx's tiny advantage given Asum's last video proved that players's perception of a tiny advantage can be dramatically overblown in their own heads. I guess people never really learn that the biggest disadvantage is the head between their own shoulders
Well, I think every pro can agree that sdi is a way more important mechanic than port priority. It’s been part of the meta for many years, and using SDI to not die from for example fox’s up air can drastically change the match, whereas marth getting 1 more frame on a throw is not likely to change much at all
There aren't any box players who can SDI like Wizzy can, and I firmly believe it's because the GCC actually has an overall advantage for SDI, but only if you're extremely dexterous and can wank SDI really fast. Digital key presses are good for burst inputs but the way that human fingers work mean it's fundamentally impossible to sustain that rate of input. Even without the lockouts, people would just be getting 3-4 SDI inputs instead of 2-3. I doubt having more people with Wizzy-level SDI would completely break the metagame, though it definitely would nerf a couple characters slightly.
They’re 230 dollars. Why would you want to put casual players in a position where they have to pay that much to feel like they’re at least somewhat on an even playing field. That’d be a great way to kill the growth of the game and expanding it to new players
@@jondoe2772 Ok and? I bet if I gave any GC controller user a boxx they would suck ass for the first couple days of trying to use it. People are gonna be better with whatever controller their most comfortable on. Just because it's different doesn't mean that it's easy or broken.
Fox players who paid $400 to bypass practice and automate inputs in shambles that someone can spend half of that and '''invalidate''' one of their moves
@@SocknessMonster It's likely only a very small percentage of the community who cares about adding these lockouts are banning angles. I just intend to say that the people arguing against making valid inputs easier to do would prefer that controllers are the best input method or comparable in every situation.
7:50 stepmania players good at jacks can vibro WAY faster than this. A more close to melee example would be how Axe initially rapid-jab, since he use a similar-ish vibro technique.
You should watch Tyler Swift play against any fox at summit. He get out of almost every upthrow -> up air with box sdi. I might be a noob but the only person I have seen as consistent is wizzy and hbox. Not taking away from Tyler though. I didnt know who he was until summit and his pikachu is absolutely insane and fun to watch.
I agree with Rumford's comment, the B0XX has many nerfs already that most people don't even know about. Short wavedash angles in addition to only having 3 different angles means not only can you not wavedash far, but you can't microspace with wavedash either. And Up B angles are also nerfed, you can't do pivot tilt attacks, you can't pinpoint any ambiguous DI coordinates vs fox's and marth's chain grabs... And SDI is limited to 2 inputs
I know people like to use the counter argument that Wizzrobe is a monster in terms of reaction and SDI and is an outlier from the majority of players, but highkey if he can do it then other people can as well. It honestly just seems that people don't practice SDI no where near as much as Wizzy.
I think that allot of stuff like SDI and just general game tech is more intuitive for some people once they've learned how to use the boxx controller so allot of stuff just clicks easier. The issue is that a gamecube controller can do literally anything a boxx can so anyone who's bitching about it is probably just not that good at the game.
@@embly2319 Gamecube controllers can do it, but, only if you get a good controller. But then... should Melee really be locked behind a scarcity of good, reliable controllers? Is that entry gate and upkeep cost really good for competition? Idk. It's so weird to me because I feel like most people commenting on the issue (I'll include myself here, sure) aren't doing the work to really understand what rectangles are or should be capable of. But it's obvious that Hax has done the work, and genuinely wants these controllers to be "fair" compared to GC controllers. It makes no sense for there to be so much hysteria about it, some of the more sober community representatives just need to do some research then sit down together and figure out how they want it to work.
From my experience playing with and against ppl using hitbox, I think double tap sdi is at least somewhat feasible but much more accessible to left handed people. My buddy showed me some ludicrous rolling (which is just tapping one button by rolling multiple fingers) back in sf4 with Chun where he managed to cancel cr.lp into legs with only lk and mk. But it necessitated him holding his hitbox weird so he could put his left hand on the kick buttons and right for the directions. Definitely hard, maybe not consistent, but I think possible
Some of this analysis seems to be based on values that are taken as constant, but can vary widely per player. At 4:34 Hax says "I've tested the GameCube controller extensively, and found that it typically performs its SDI inputs on frame 1 then frame 4". This seems less of a fundamental property of the controller itself, and more about the hand speed and technique of the specific player. All the subsequent calculations change under different player conditions. Is B0XX designed to be balanced only for players of Hax's approximate skill?
That's a good point. Another point to consider is that several other people have actually corrected that point, and said that they can get a second in put with 2 - 3 frames, which is faster than frame 4. I assume this is up to the skill of the player. If this is true, then the GC controller is actually better if you are at the highest level of play, but the Boxx is better at lower levels of play. Interesting things to consider for sure.
i doubt hax is trying to do it as fast as humanly possible, and is most likely trying to perform it modestly so that its in line with most players. either that or youtube commentators are more technically capable than hax
I'm sure people can do better than frames 1 and 4 but hax is contrasting that with it being possible to input it on frames 1 and 2 consistently on boxx with significantly less practice than gcc. If you have to be really good on gcc to be on par with an average boxx player that sounds like a problem to me
@@user-qr1ts3yq1d it's pretty likely that some people can press buttons faster than hax, but obviously it's not balanced if you have to have incredible reflexes to get comparable results to a boxx
@@user-qr1ts3yq1d i think there are reasons hax might not like to spam sdi with his hands too, i hate doing it and my arthritis is nothing compared to what hes got
LOL if a player complains about box they should probably see for themselves and just get one xD literally same idea as why ppl pickup top tiers as their mains. You think it's broken? Then PLAY IT!
No, which is why the whole SDI nerf is dumb in the first place. We don't nerf the B0XX because SOME people refuse to learn claw grip or Z l cancel, so why do we do it for people refusing to learn wank SDI??
I'm gonna be frank. I bought the Boxx because I like 64 controllers but instead of them making one with c buttons that work well and it feels cheaply made when they could've fixed the problems. So honestly I don't care. I don't want to use a Gamecube controller and people mod those too. If Nintendo can't make a good controller then all your point's are invalid to me because you don't have to use a Gamecube controller and I never wanted too. Why don't you all use a 64 controller like I like. Oh you don't want to. Now if that's the case your argument doesn't matter anymore. Because now your fighting for preference.
One thing about double-tap SDI is that if you contort your form a bit you can technically plink (think: piano key method but for one button) one of the cardinals well within 4 frames. I have no clue if this is feasible for people who use rectangle controllers out of necessity b/c their hands, though people with perfectly healthy hands probably could do this somewhat consistently. Really hoping that this is just me being full of shit, I’d hate to see people with hand problems be put at a disadvantage to other people using a controller that was initially made for them.
the double tap is unrealistic for everyone as you need to hit the second tap EXACTLY 4 frames later and then immediately do a one frame plink. Either tech is hard on it's own but paired together they are unrealistic.
double tapping is far slower than you think, Cise. It's not feasible in a tiny hitlag window. I am a piano player and tried using the piano key method you're describing, and I had no success with it. That technique is far easier on a piano key than on a B0XX button. On the B0XX, the buttons need to come back up again before you can re-press them, but the buttons come up too slowly, in my experience. If another B0XX player out there has had success with this method, I would love to hear/see it.
I think I'd feel the same level of antipathy toward people that are overly particular about controller legality as I do for NIMBY if this effected anything important
"SDI on a box is too easy and too broken so box players have no skill. Let me show you real skill with my $400 goomwave controller with modded software and notched wavedashes and fire fox angles." - some melee player probably
calling 0.8 an overnerf because the way you designed it to be perfect/ideal doesn't really play, in my opinion. you designed it that way intentionally and so you have intentionally made it overbuff, so to speak. designing a digital controller for every character at the same time seems to be the issue. it is a one size fits all instead of a character basis.
@@Katsunne it uses firmware. afaik there isn't an issue with most characters, but for some you would have to change the box a little bit for them to have an ideal world. hax designed the boxx to be first and foremost ideal for FOX. you can easily change the boxx's parameters, that's one of the biggest benefits to a digital controller. so, yeah, if every character main wanted to design an ideal boxx for them, i don't see why they shouldn't. do you?
@@mystery_1155 Barrier of entry. For the same reason Hax is in support of changing the width of the area where the sharpest angle can be hit to remove the need for a modded controller. Your suggestion would be the exact opposite. Imagine wanting to play a character but needed a character specific controller made for them. Now imagine you wanted to change characters. Oof.
@@mystery_1155 that brings more and more legality into question. If youve watched the B0xx documentary you know how much careful planning went into this, and it's really not as easy as you seem to think it is.
@@Rael0505 I'm just a bit nervous about taking the game that's been one thing for so many years and changing it to lower the skill ceiling... it feels wrong to push this as the default. The game as is clearly has consistency for certain players who are skilled enough, I just don't think the game needs to be made easier for the sake of consistency in a game that's had fairly consistent results and an interesting metagame for all these years.
@@collinkliewe1725 how is melee as it is consistent? It's very inconsistent and even high level players talk about inconsistency in inputs. Lowering the skill ceiling? Melee is still hard even if you have a good controller. What exactly do you want? Melee to only be played by people who dedicate their entire lives to it? Damn, so if someone wants to be good at melee while having a life outside of it by optimizing their chances and having a controller that won't murder their hands, tough luck for them, huh? Eventually the old players will quit the scene. Mang0, Axe, Wizzy, Leff are not immortal. A new generation will take over after them. Stop living in the past, man.
@@collinkliewe1725 how is this lowering the skill ceiling or making it easier? This video is about nerfing boxx controllers so they don't make sdi easier.