becoming fools | a visit from some JWs [cc] 

I remember about 20 years ago, we would get plagued by JWs all the time. Then one summer a friend of mine who happened to own a pygmy goat asked me if I would pet sit for her. I did and bought Kevin (goat) home with me and let him out into the garden. Kevin would often wander in and out of the house a bit like a spindly legged dog, anyhoo, one day there is a knock on the front door and it's the JWs, would I be interested in knowing about Jesus etc. I politely explained that I wasn't interested and at that moment the goat stuck his head round the door and stared at the pair of them. We all looked at each other and I said "sorry as you can see I'm a satanist", They left and never came back, in fact they would make a point visiting everyone else but would avoid our house like the plague.

This video brings up memories. Oh, how I hated knocking on doors. I look back and feel guilt for the people I helped recruit and shame for taking so long to realize that I was raised in an atrocious lie.

2:58 i don't blame them. us penguins stump everyone we encounter

I'm a fourth generation jw that woke up under a year ago. Your work, your videos have been life saving. For some reason watching them over and over again gives me peace of mind. Thank you for your videos. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you for not forgetting their humanity.

I used to do this with a par of nice ladies. They would come, we would talk, they would go away with more questions than answers. The next week, they would come back with some 'answers' that I would dismantle, again sending them away with more questions. I could see a change in them after a while. It was almost as if I became the other side of the coin. They wanted to know my reaction and view on the subjects they are bringing, rather than informing me of how my views were wrong without even knowing what they were. The talks were enjoyable to me, calming in a way, as I have always liked talking about religion to anyone that wants to actually talk. To them, though... I was slowly converting them. One day, I realized they had not come in a few weeks. I sadly thought to myself that their elders had told them to stop coming. I mentioned to my wife that I had not seen them in weeks. She responded... "They came while you were at work a few weeks ago. I told them that you are angry and moody for the next few days after you talk and told them not to come back." This, of course, was completely untrue. The truth of the matter is she is a Catholic, and overheard our conversations. When I was questioning the JW's views, it also, by default, questioned her own. She was OK with me talking to them at first, because they did not have her beliefs. However, as the conversation deepened with them, fundamental and universal religious beliefs and mechanics were under attack. Her beliefs were under attack. It was not me that was getting angry and moody for the next few days, it was her. She had to project those feelings onto me, though, in order for her to wash away any self-doubt. It was then that I realized why religious people say all religious beliefs should be respected. Eventually, while attacking one religion, you will attack the core of all of them. Edit - an update for the people that started showing up 3 years after I made this post. My wife stopped going to church shortly after I made this post, and has not gone a single time in the last two years. I never talked directly to her about religion, as it was not a topic she likes discussing with me. She is still mildly religious, but still never mentions it. To some of you, your hateful responses are sad and pitiful. Get some help.

"If you look at penguins swimming from under the water, they appear to be flying" ouch the logic parts of my brain just got a cramp.

Conclusion: If you are articulate and knowledgeable, do talk with them. Any of their young members who can be moved to begin that ever so tiny process of thinking for themselves is worth the hassle. You may never know the outcome, but you give the opportunity. They think they need to save you. Instead, you may have the opportunity to save someone. Be the pebble that one day becomes a landslide a mind.

Funny how they mentioned "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools." Considering her facial expressions, she seems to have thought herself awfully wise...

Every time i hear the name Watchtower, i think of Saurons Eye in Mordor. Funny and depressingly accurate at the same time.

The moment the teacher-student analogy came up, I was reminded of a long time ago; I think my freshman year in high school, when a teacher asked me about the strange way I was doing longform multiplication. The teacher was very open-minded and indeed asked me to explain it to the class. It was at that point I was able to explain "lattice multiplication" to everyone, which I've always found to be a much simpler way of doing complex multiplication on paper than the traditional way. And the teacher was actually rather impressed by my unorthodox (and no less accurate) approach. He didn't find me rebellious; he was genuinely curious, and I was gratified to talk about something I considered unique and fun.

Awww Penny was your study conductor, a young girl I presume, and the others were her veteran back up. I'm Soo glad this happened and this girl got to experience critical thinking. Thank you

Most teachers in public schools i have known considered themselves unquestionably correct

I've only been visited by JWs once in my life. I was ten or eleven, and my mum was asleep. They told me about how after the rapture, the lion would lie down with the lamb, and everyone would live forever. I said lions eat lambs. They left.

I was born into a jw family. Hated the smiling all the damn time till my cheek bones hurt. The logical reasoning behind things didn't make sense to me. I was told when you reach 18 I could stop. Got baptized at 16. Got depressed at 18 I left them I said I would come back one day out of politenes. I would never. At 21 I moved out of family home to finally think for myself, love myself and speak for myself.

My favorite approach when they ask "would you like to hear about Jesus?", I answer with "yes, but not from you", this always makes them completely speechless and confused.

I think it's telling that they always are in pairs and never talk to you alone. I think it's a way of controlling any doubting members, so if they give an honest, off script, or opposing opinion to the counsel the other JW can then either shut them down or snitch to the counsel. Thus keeping people on script for fear of shunning for their true feelings.

As an Ex-JW I found your reasoning well thought out. It was someone like you, someone who challenged my thinking, that helped get me out of the mindset. I've been out for almost 20 years. Who knows but maybe you helped that lady Penny see things differently and she may leave that group as well?

Going door to door, I always felt guilty because as I stood there holding my books, the other person would be talking away and would add, “We’re not here to convert anybody” or some variation of that but its not true! That’s exactly what we were there to do. I tried to talk to my sister about this when she invited me to go with her recently but shes so deeply indoctrinated, she couldn’t even understand what was wrong with that because “we’re doing it to save peoples lives”. Im slowly breaking myself away but its hard because you feel like everyone is watching you all the time. I dont have a jw roommate anymore though, which has been such a relief because I dont feel like my every move is being tracked by someone now.

When I was a kid my parents would take me door to door. The JWs have this duality to them that rubbed off on me and that I have to fight to this day. They will smile and be polite at your door, even raise a semblance of interest in argumentation, but if they get rejected, even if politely so, what is said in the car about that person usually amounts to "well, they chose death, they can't be honest in their pursuit of the truth if they rejected our preaching." It's a sort of very on/off mentality, where somebody can become literally dead to you at the drop of a hat, simply because of a diverging opinion.

I was discussing some things with a Christian the other day, and he said to me: "If you discover the painter, you can appreciate the painting on another level." Referring to God and the world. I replied to him: "You are so focused on the painter, you are missing out on the painting."

My brother used to be bothered by JWs. One day he answered the door with his 12 foot python draped over his shoulders. He hasn't been bothered since.

I've been raised a JW my entire life. It's only been through Extensive Research, Critical Thinking, Videos like these, and countless other "inappropriate" and downright "evil" or "satanic" ways of thinking and researching that I've been able to wake up. I'm currently being kicked out of my home and ill be moving in with my "worldly" best friend (who they only recently found out about). This "religion's" rabbit hole runs so very deep. I'm one of the lucky ones.

"what if the teacher started shooting students" ok I can see how that's a logical continuation of the analogy but goddamn it now I can't concentrate, that was horribly funny

A big part of my deconversion from the JWs was when i met an interesting man at the door who wanted to talk because he had a genuine curiousity about philosophy and spirituality. As i stood there chatting with him, i realised that i had so much in common with him and absolutely nothing in common with the fellow JW at my side. What was i doing... trying to convert this gem... it was my job to destroy this thing of beauty? No, i wouldn't. i was on the wrong side of this fight. And that was the last time i ever went door knocking.

I'm impressed and beguiled by all the time you guys spent with them. I once talked to a couple of JW's for about 20 minutes, asking them what I considered to be rather 'light' questions that contained minor debate points. I didn't want any big debate, and I suspect they didn't either, I was just curious as to how they would respond; if they were sharp enough to at least clear a handful of 'light' questions. I honestly expected great responses from them and I was eager to hear them (planning to end the encounter afterwards), but was greatly disappointed to find another phenomenon entirely. Instead of processing anything I said, they seemed to choose a 'closest fit' canned response and gave that as an answer. It was like if Stephen Hawking only had a panel of phrases, couldn't write any new ones, and was required to immediately choose one for a response if asked a question. I tried to make eye contact and really get some kind of independent thought out of them, even if it was entirely pro-JW, but no such thing occurred. They had this look in their eye, the kind I'm sure I get if I have to perform some menial repetitive task for hours on end. I guess I shouldn't be too hard on them, they were probably just kids forced to do this thing, going through the motions. It's still pretty depressing though.

"Well, what about penguins." "Oh, dang, nab it. I forgot penguins existed. Sorry I will need to consult the archives for that one."

Thank you for your perspective, it was very interesting to hear from somebody who only studied with them and did so with logic and you didn't fall into their trap. I never had the opportunity to question things until I grew up, born in and 3rd generation in the organization I never had that option. I was baptized at just 10 years old and didn't leave until their rules on blood killed my dad. They had changed the rules on that, only a little bit, once again. They told my dad he could, at that point in 2007, accept bone marrow as they had gotten "new light" that made doing so a "conscience matter" but reminded him that even if it didn't bother his own, he needed to remember that he could "stumble his brother" (meaning another member in the organization) and then would be held accountable before jehovah. He would be held "bloodguilty". They then reminded him that the platelets he desperately needed were still absolutely not to be accepted under any circumstances. My dad then bled from everywhere over two long days it was horrific. He was fighting cancer during this time as well so yes that could have taken him in the end but we will never know since their rules killed him first. I attended his funeral at the kingdom hall and then left the religion. I was done. I told my mom there's no difference in accepting bone marrow and accepting any other part of blood and that it was disgusting that they would make such wishy washy rules and continually change them. Prior to the 2000's it was always black and white, aside from some fractions used in medicines for things like hemophilia (later realized the rules on this were different at one point and even they couldn't have their medicine because it had a blood fraction in it), I told her that if it is all wrong is should all be a no. If they are going to ok parts then they should just ok all of it. Bone marrow is just immature blood cells and if it produced cells that were responsible for any other organ/ part of the body regenerating or growing then i might buy the reasoning, not really but yea, but since bone marrow only made blood cells then this made zero since logically. It is ok to take immature blood cells but not fully developed ones? I didn't want anything to do with it anymore.

As an ex-JW, I can concur that everything described in this video is 100% accurate. Jehovah's Witnesses are trained to think illogically. They practice confirmation bias, and cognitive dissonance the way a guitarist would practice strumming on his or her guitar. This is why they meet so many times a week, and are encouraged to constantly read and absorb the Watchtower publications. They don't actually read the bible, or discuss it in any honest way, they read the Watchtower literature with cherry-picked bible verses and they must accept the Watchtower's interpretation of those verses no matter how illogical it seems (ex: they "overlapping generations" nonsense).

I don't debate what is in the Bible. That is like arguing over what red kryptonite does to Superman based on the comic books. Instead I told the JW's that their normal task of converting someone from a different religion to their religion was different with me. I asked them why I should believe anything the Bible has to say in the first place. They said it is the word of God. I asked why I should believe in God and they said the Bible says so. After going around and around a few times I tried to explain to them that they were using circular reasoning. It was amazing how long it took before they realized that they didn't have any good reason to believe in God or the Bible. They said they would come back later with someone smarter than they were. That never happened.

It's extraordinarily rare that I have the privilege of hearing someone speak with such exquisitely beautiful syntax.

They probably replaced Marcia with Sheila because you were starting to get through to both Penny and Marcia. Sheila sounds like she was a more senior member of the organisation, and took a more hard-line approach to trying to control the topics of the conversations and eventually calling them off when she didn't get the required result. Marcia and Penny probably did have honest intentions when they started discussing religion, but Sheila almost certainly did not.

Th worst thing about JWs is way they treat each other if they dare to challenge, dissent or question the party line.

"what about penguins?" Or almost every native bird in New Zealand, an evolutionary adaptation to an environment with few predators of birds, or the emu, ostrich, rhea or cassowary whose size prevents aerodynamic efficiency .

I truly hope Penny managed to escape.

I remember a story a friend told me that happened when he was younger He was in his driveway working on his car, when a Jehovah's Witness walked up, started his spiel, then noticed the car and completely forgot why he was there and they had a conversation about cars He came back a few times for the next couple of weeks, and they only ever discussed cars, until one day he showed up with another JW, who made sure to steer the conversation to stick with their script, and they both left after a few minutes when it became clear my friend wasn't going to be converted The first guy never came back after that

This video really resonates with me, as conversations with believers were an important part of my conversion experience. Hoping to test my thinking while spurring others toward their own critical thinking, I asked many of my friends, "Why do you believe in God?" The "best" (and most surprisingly honest) answer I got was from a close friend who said that belief in the heavenly afterlife was her only defense against a crippling fear of death. The last answer I got was from my family's church's head pastor, who said that if I didn't see the reasons to believe in God, then I shouldn't; that settled it for me. I'll end my comment with my favorite quote from this video, which happens to be its final sentences. "Dehumanizing can be infectious. When members of supremacist ideologies dehumanize us, it's a natural reflex to dehumanize them right back - to forget their humanity, as they've forgotten ours. But that leaves us all brutalized, incurious, and with an impoverished understanding of the complexity of human experience. For me, it's when we allow ourselves to succumb to those kinds of unthinking reflexes that we really do become fools."

I used to be visited regularly by the JWs. I had several long discussions, similar to yours. I was always friendly, never difficult, certainly never rude. I just asked questions and pointed out a few anomalies I had noticed in what they said. Oh, they frequently tried to give me books and pamphlets to read. I tried to offer them something to read once. Absolute flat refusal, they seemed quite offended by the very suggestion that I should offer them anything to read, that was clearly a severe no-no. I also had the 'I'll have to get back to you' response. They never did. I am now blacklisted. They still visit my street regularly and knock on all my neighbour's doors, but always miss mine out...

O man, the irony of that lady saying that quote

I had a JW show up at my door one day, had a very long conversation that eventually ended with him saying, "Hey, thank you so much. You're a really smart person, and I'll have to think about what you said." I don't know what became of him, but I can only hope he went on to live his life a different way.

I grew up JW and this was spot on. The big thing to understand is that they simply are not allowed to yield. Any doubt they feel is a sign of spiritual weakness and suggests that Satan may be involved in the interaction with you. It is considered extremely dangerous to accept ideas presented by those outside the organization. If you made them doubt what they were saying, then they would have been made very uncomfortable and fearful of what your words represented. It was likely suggested to them by the elders that they discontinue the conversations with you for their own safety.

My mother attempted to force the JW religion on me(as she did to my sisters, and her parents to her. That usual bs.) I've been kicked out of so many different "meetings"(basically churches) for just asking too many questions. As many I could think of. I had a small journal of these questions, and every time she would force me to dress up for church, I'd bring my "get out free" book. She gave up on forcing me to go when I was 15.

I’m proud of teenage me for refusing to get baptised into this cult. I was shuffled into door knocking once as a kid, I stood next to whoever was doing the knocking and felt so awkward and so sorry for the people we were disturbing and irritating. From memory I hung back at the end of the road for the next one and walked back home as they knocked. This cult took me out of school where I lost contact with all my friends, and on refusing to attend meetings later in my teens I lost my social circle for a second time. It is not an environment for honest people that question things. I feel sorry for other children raised in it, and am convinced any adult still in it is entirely unthinking and lack any honesty with themselves, and lack integrity in general. They do think and often act like children.

As an ex-jw, this is a truly moving video. My favorite. Thank you, TheraminTrees.

TheraminTrees, why isn't this gem of a video listed? Can I share it on a public forum frequented by JWs? I say this truthfully and without any intention of flattery. Your videos are, in my opinion, the best collection of videos on RU-vid dissecting the negative issues of religion. The video entitled "Bending Truth" is easily the best video on religious indoctrination on RU-vid. I honestly believe this.

The JW guy in my area wanted to become friends with my nephew. I got into some light chats about religion with the JW guy. I finally told him I was an apostate and he never came back. He stopped trying to woo my nephew as well.

As someone who works in sales and both makes and takes sales calls, it's incredibly obvious to me when a pitch has no substance. Every religious conversion attempt I've ever heard has been an underhanded sales technique, either deliberately or through sheer ignorance at their own tactics.

My dad came in my room and asked me to come watch the JW broadcast while I was watching this video edit: I just finished the video and I feel like I'm about to have a panic attack lol

Thank you for making this and announcing listing it. The hardest part of leaving the Jehovah's Witness faith for me wasn't becoming aware itself, but the realization that most of the people whom subscribed to the faith were so very deluded and unwilling to even hear out contrary reasoning, no matter how sound.

I remember avoiding telling people we are trying to convert them. And that we were only encouraging bible discussion. To get them to admit they were only interested in converting you would be quite satisfying. I wonder if they took note that they lied.

I enjoy how objective you stay in your videos. Allot of other atheist channels get pretty mad, which is understandable but less condusive to education. Keep it up 😁

5:50 I feel compelled to answer that problem. The answer is 17 / sin(62°). (I assume it's in degrees if it isn't just make sure to get your units correct by multiplying 62 by the ratio of radians in a full circle to the unit of angle used in a full circle and then take the sine of that in radians). The answer is approximately 77/4

Heaven's to Betsy, the JWs hadn't been to my door for years - during which time I'd stopped going to any church and become a very firm non-believer. Then, surprise, surprise one turned up, with a non-speaking companion who I think was learning the ropes and discovered I was a historian. "I'll be back!" he promised. "And we'll talk history together!" Having seen this I shall now make sure I'm out when he calls. Two minutes on the doorstep is one thing, but weeks and weeks of visits, whilst he uses history in some obscure way to make me into a follower of the Watchtower! NO!

Glad you made this public, I loved it. Easter Eggs like this one accessible by clicking somewhere on a video cannot be found when watching on mobile device, which is increasingly becoming where most people watch videos these days.

This video summed up why I backed out of being a witness. I entered their establishment with an open mind and a willingness to accept God. I was new to it so I asked many questions. I'm smart, so the questions I asked weren't easy. As time went on I noticed more and more bad analogies that made me question more. At one point the preacher had told a story about why God wants us to be a witness or we'd go to hell. His reason was that parent's want their kids to do good not just out of the kindness of their hearts, but because they are thinking of them. It was a blatant lie, I've never met a parent who wouldn't say the exact opposite, that they want their kids to be good without fear of judgement if they don't. I also noticed most of the people in the room didn't practice what they preach. They speak of being kind to others but the most prominent priest in there beat his wife and threatened his kids with a weapon. They speak of being open to all, but gave me the cold shoulder at every turn. I asked questions and pointed out inconsistencies because I wanted to believe. Not only were they unable to answer my questions, they also labeled me an enemy for them. It was then that I realized that they were lost. They were afraid of me because I sought the truth they fear. I believe God is real, and I even believe some of the witnesses ideals. But I want to know the truth, and if that makes me an enemy of the witnesses, then that makes the witnesses the enemy of the truth.

8:39 "unquestionably correct" -this is why I think that you must be authoritarian to be religious. Because only an authoritarian would be ok with this.

@5:41 "In response, Penny launched, clock-work, into a rehearsed analogy about a teacher and a rebellious student..." But wait just a minute, Penny. Didn't god plant the "Tree of Knowledge" in the Garden of Eden, then *forbid the humans to eat from it* ? That's not what a teacher does, is it? A teacher helps his students to *partake of* knowledge. So calling god a 'teacher' isn't accurate at all.

As an ex-JW I have to say that this is probably my favorite YT video. Well done again TT.

This is literally the same experience I had with them. Same questions, same answers. It was hilarious, but I also feel bad because one of the witnesses was young, probably younger than me, and it was clear how they were throwing another one into the pit.

So true of JWs. I was one for 31 years. Didn't realise that the lingo threw people who weren't JWs. Eg 'this system'. But if you tell JWs they are 'unwordly', they will confirm it and swell up with pride.

I'm actually disturbed that you kept this as an easter egg for so long. It is thoughtful, useful, and valuable. And I would hope that any such piece in the future is put out there more openly. I had an experience with Mormon missionaries very recently. I didn't remark on the scriptures so much as I went through the logic of certain beliefs. I talked about the need for real evidence, and the relative lack of value in wishful thinking. I talked about how religion compels a lack of action when action is needed. (To save lives or help in general) The problem of suffering was brought up as well. The two young women that had the conversation with me similarly made an effort to say they would seek answers from an elder before returning to me with the answers. I refused and opted instead to have them go through the logic themselves rather than being told by a fallible human what is true. We talked for hours. I understand them quite well, and they were actually impressed that I came from a JW family. They were surprised that I was receptive to conversation, and it seemed to resonate with them when I told them that I understood why they seek people out. Of course they want to convert people. They think they have the truth, the most important knowledge that there is. It would be an act of evil to keep that to one's self. After some time, the woman who was doing almost all of the talking came away quite thoughtful and curious. I doubt I have pulled her away from the religion, but I'm very sure I got her thinking a lot more about the people around her. She understands atheists and agnostics far better now. The silent one... well... it looked as if she had turned off quite sometime earlier in the discussion, and the look she gave me at the end was very similar to the one you described in this video.

Thank you TheraminTrees! You guys where my inspiration after leaving the cult 5 years ago. Now, im filled with goosebumps after watching this video. Unbelievable. Perfect. Thank you

as an ex-witness, this rings uncomfortably true. hell, it got worse than this spometimes. some witnesses, like my father did to me, take their young children and force them to be part of these visits.

i'm really fucking glad my mom decided to wake up after her divorce and see through the bullshit i appreciate her for valuing her children being able to recieve blood transfusions, organ transplants, and so much more regular things in life lots of needless suffering and deaths

In a perfect world, we would view George Orwell as an angelic visitor.

@3:17 forward, "Penny and Marcia came back with the response that 'If you look at penguins from under the water, they would appear to be flying over you'." Wish I'd been there... "Oh, really? Care to explain ostriches, emus, Southern cassowaries, Greater Rheas? THEY don't "fly" in water; they're land-bound."

I'm so glad there are people like you who are willing to sit and debate with missionaries! 20 years ago I was a Mormon missionary when a kind atheist man invited us in. This was a shock, since most people simply turned us away uninterested. He offered us a comfortable seat and something to drink, and asked concerned questions like whether we had a safe place to live, which I later realized were intended to determine whether we were in some kind of human trafficking situation (a lot of Mormon missions are very close to that). Then he spent over an hour debating with us, debunking every pretense I had of logical reasoning for belief in God. When we left, I was clinging to blind faith alone, which lasted me through the rest of my mission but evaporated within a year after I got home.

With the teacher analogy, I had an awful maths teacher. I had to do things her way regardless if I found another way of doing it and still coming to the correct answer. Her way confused me and I couldn't grasp it, I found a different method to solve problems and she would fail me saying that's not the way I taught you. I said I still got the correct answer and she would say yes but by doing it the wrong way, you need to do it the way I teach you. I never understood that, why do I have to do things one way when I struggle to grasp it? What was wrong with my method if I still was getting the correct answer? Heaps of teachers out there don't like to be challenged and will evict you from class for being rebellious or in my case "trouble."

Most interesting. I have to say, I do wonder why people stick to their religion in the face of all reason; it's something I think about a fair bit. When I was young, apart from going to 'Crusaders' I was obsessed by the Sex Pistols. In my eyes they were the greatest band ever and literally NO other band could compare. I had a friend who loved the Beatles and tried to explain to me why they were better. I was having none of it, and would refuse to listen to any other type of music than punk, mocking and ridiculing any of his attempts to do so. Of course, as I got older I realised that to restrict myself from liking, or rather admitting to others that I actually did like other music, I was hurting only one person: me. I made a conscious decision to never again judge a band or song based on the perceived image, and now I listen and love almost all types of music from classical, to jazz, to Country to Metal, Indie, Pop rap, you name it. It has made me a richer and happier person, no question. Of course, explaining WHY I stuck so blindly, and for so long, to only liking the Sex Pistols is harder to explain. If I'm honest with myself, I think it was not just because I did genuinely love them (I did), but because I wanted people to identify me with punk and to the Sex Pistols; to see me as adventurous perhaps, a little wild; grown-up even. I wanted people to know I was part of 'that team', when most of my peers were listening to Boney M and Abba. In the same way I widened my musical taste, I also considered my religion. I loved the Crusaders (which was a Christian young persons club), and on Summer Camp on the isle of Wight I had even been re-baptised; but when I thought about WHY I was Christian, I realised very quickly that it just didn't make any sense at all to me and I was mostly doing it to please the grown-ups. I liked them, and felt very close to some and it hurt me to think of telling them that to me the whole concept of Heaven and Hell was anathema. Being told my cat, Sandy, wouldn't be in Heaven to meet me probably set the ball rolling, and then when my grandmother died I became confused about how she would look in heaven. Would she look how I remembered her? Or would she be young? Every answer I was given disappointed me and made me more sceptical. So, anyway, I quickly dropped the Christian act, and on Sundays instead of going to Crusaders I started going to Army Cadets. So why did I ever identify myself as a Christian? Well, partly to please adults that I liked was one reason, another one was the pinball machine they had. I can't honestly say that I ever felt comfortable admitting it to others though, I always felt a bit foolish saying it, which speaks volumes I think. So perhaps Christians are so blindly obsessed with following Christianity because they want everyone to know 'I'm part of the JEEBUS TEAM'? I'm 'GOOD PEOPLE'. Or is it simply that the alternative is too scary for them to face - that when they die, that's it; that this little bag of meat and bones, all it's hopes, fears, loves, experiences and memories, when it's gone that's it. No! It cannot be! It can't all be for nothing! The deeds of Hyram J. Keggenhoffler must echo throughout eternity. They MUST. "All my loved ones are waiting for me at the gates of heaven (even though Uncle Mick fucking hated Auntie Mary), Look! They are holding hands and laughing and smiling with the joy of Jeebus now". Could it really be that simple? That the reason people refuse to entertain other possible explanations to the meaning of life is that they're scared of death? The most natural thing, there most necessary thing and about the only thing you can 100% guarantee is going to happen to you. I see the same patterns and behaviours online by Christians, over and over; when presented with clear evidence, they flounder and produce weird justifications and bizarrely constructed semi-scientific/philosophic prose to befuddle, muddy and lie. They're absolutely obsessed with telling people about sin and how much they love God, and speak in that creepy way about Him and Love and The Message and He Who Gave Us It All Because He So Loved Us and Capitalised Each Word. Praise Him. And in the end, any discussion is futile because they won't accept any other reason BECAUSE GOD IS THE TRUTH (It's like republicans and global warming, although at least with them I can understand the motivations for trying to discredit, even though it is deeply odious and self-serving). They accuse 'non-believers' of being 'angry with God' and 'in rebellion against Him' and being 'blind' and 'not bothering to find out the evidence' (!) whilst practising the same things themselves. Is there anything else we hold on to so vigorously with blind faith? I can't think of anything, other than the Sex Pistols being the best band EVER that is.

14:23 "These were individuals motivated by kindness and love" The greatest crimes are always committed out of love. As for dehumanizing? These people are unfortunately doing a great job of that all by themselves. Reducing themselves to unthinking script-spewing puppets. It's very sad.

I'm so glad I watched this. The last few minutes made me feel much less alone. It really is frightening to realize your beliefs are bogus. It's a big adjustment. Not easy.

I would also frequently get visits from JW's and welcome the discussions. One time a gentleman asked if I happened to notice an uptick of earthquake activity in recent times and I replied, "not at all, - although there are thousands of earthquakes reported each year the USGS (United States Geological Survey) actually reported a reduction in earthquake events for the last few years". These 'challenges' to their dogmatic positions seldom penetrate to a depth that causes them to question their dogmatic positions, so, they're generally useless, - the bible says it, I believe it and that does it! You'll get more benefit knocking your head against a wall.

Excellent! I’ve had some interesting “discussions” w/them, over time, too...each different. Also heard from others, creative solutions to get them to cease harassment. Examples: 1. Middle aged woman lived around corner from JW hall. Neighborhood was ground-zero for newbie proselytizers, always young, in pairs. The woman had repeatedly told them to leave her alone; had gone so far as writing them to A) request, then B) demand, then C) hired lawyer to formally demand they cease & desist harassing. Yet they continued to door knock. So, at extremis, the next time, she’d just got out of shower, put on robe, answered door, took a sexy pose leaning on door frame, letting robe fall open, and said, in sultry voice...”can I help you boys?”...they were mid-teens, very shocked, jaws agape, turned, ran...THEN, no more came to door. (That might backfire, these days though..that was back in the 1970’s). 2. We lived in apartment, up long flight of steps, small landing by door. 2 older gals stood at sidewalk, while the teen newbie gal climbed steps to proselytize. She started her spiel. I asked her, “isn’t your religion the one that says something like only 244,000 will be saved & sit with God?” She lit-up smiling, chatting how nice it was I was familiar even a little (probly thot her task would be easier?...). She started chattering along again, more at ease. I asked the 2nd question: “How many members does the religion have, worldwide, now?” Again, lit-up, smiling, said some number in the Millions, and kept chattering about how great the religion was. After a little bit more chatter, I asked the 3rd question: “Isn’t that over-kill?” She instantly stopped chattering, looked absolutely shocked, like the carefully stacked Jenga pieces behind her face, just started to disassemble....then asked “Ummm...what?” I said: “Well, if the religion has millions of members, but only about 244,000 are promised to be saved, what happens with the rest of them who aren’t??” Well, by then, the Jenga-tower of programming behind her face was in free-fall. She stuttered, almost in tears, “I’m doing God’s work! It’s ok if I’m not one of the Saved!!” She was clearly Losing it. At that point, I simply, gently, with sincere compassion, told her, “The God I believe, is unconditional in their love, and would never leave out any who sincerely did their best to do God’s work; would unconditionally bring them along to be together.” She repeated her stuttering explanation of doing God’s work....spun on her heal, and about flew down the steps. None ever came to the door there again. 3. At new location, a couple older gals repeatedly visited. I never let them into the house, no matter how cold out it was. We’d stand on covered porch (no seats), talking about various things. At length. Telling them it was pointless, as spouse was pastoring at a different religion’s church, didn’t even register in their minds. Yes, I did know very well, that putting them in physically uncomfortable situation, was ploy to get them to give up, and, can be a form of brainwashing tool, too. We talked mostly of philosophical & religious, some as relates to world & events. This continued a couple times per month, or monthly, for over a year. Then they stopped, after I repeatedly told them to stop coming...at least for over a year. Then an older guy came, and we did similar...stood on porch, talked at length. He was a bit more aggressive at trying to get me to take the fliers; repeatedly asked about pastor spouse. What got scary, was that his facial expressions and tone of voice, frequently were very threatening/intimidating; And, his talks literally repeated, some verbatim, things I’d said in conversations with the 2 women before him. ...CLEARLY, the JW’s kept files on prospects! So, only a few visits into this guy’s routine, and very short on time/energy, I simply told the guy, ... “We do not tolerate, aid or abet cults, nor cult-like behaviors, here!”. His face didn’t even register he’d heard it, and kept talking. So, I repeated that a 2nd time. His face only barely registered partial comprehension, he stepped towards me, talking. I repeated that sentence a 3rd time, this time making sure of deep, Svengali-eye contact, and very firm, clear, enunciated tones, as his face was now into my personal airspace, less than 2’ away......this time he stuttered, seemed at loss for words; he reflexively shoved pamphlets into the now closing door. I carefully pushed those back out the door, told him firmly, “Remove the pamphlets! Take them away with you! No cults allowed here! Leave!” Never came back. At new location now, we either don’t answer door, or simply, politely, tell JW’s & LDS “No thanks”. Now, though, the HOA posted “no soliciting” signs at entrance. We tell them plainly, “There’s no soliciting in this neighborhood!”...that usually gets arguments of “We’re not soliciting, only sharing and educating”...to which we respond, “Soliciting is same as selling; you are selling religious beliefs; we didn’t ask for that; therefore, you, legally, are soliciting, against posted signage, which makes it prosecutable”. The JW’s have mostly stayed away after that, but the LDS don’t seem to get it yet. They might have to though, if some around here sue the churches for harassment; for soliciting in a neighborhood with “no soliciting” signs clearly posted.

I got my JWs hooked on Dune, I didn't see them again after I got one of them to recite a prayer to Shai Hulud with a hardly a prompt.

Oh the mind-numbing numb-mindedness of my jw childhood. It really is quite incredible the amount of un-learning required after cultist indoctrination and the ability of people to do that heavy lifting. Sometimes I can forget just how far I’ve come from that history.

"If you look at penguins from under the water, they appear to be flying over you." Okay... What about emus, ostriches, dodos or cassowaries?

I actually had a genuinely nice elderly couple whom were JWs, they were really really nice people. Whenever we had weekly discussions they actually listened and didn't criticize our viewpoint, they actually merely wanted to make us merely think. Though this was years ago and the precise details have faded as they do, I can say one thing, they weren't like most the other JWs. Actually genuine nice people, open for discussion, the discussions being more philosophical and less about reading out of the bible. It was great.

I hope Penny’s doing well, all these years later. You guys did a wonderful thing for her, and I hope with your discussions she came to more critically evaluate the cult she’s unfortunately found herself in. Wherever you are Penny, I hope you’re well, and I sincerely wish you made it out ok

A nice story :) I experienced a very similar one. I invited them for tea and had nice long discussions. The second or third discussion, an elder member came along, who was better versed in the doctrines and was more rigid in his thinking than the young relatively newly converted witness that had visited me before. I nearly had the feeling that I had gotten through to him a little at some point - not sure though. The next visit seemed to me like a last attempt: They described to me the blessed state of heaven, the lack of suffering and problems. As I told them that this vision of passive happiness holds no more allure to me than a heroin trip, it was clear that we had no more to talk about, and they did not come back.

The presence of two of them at all times is an obvious strat so that they can keep each other in line. I was recently in a class where my teacher was talking about visiting the Chinese embassy for a stage-managed tour and some interviews, and she mentioned that she was always talking to at least two of them. It made me think of this video

I fear for how many brilliant easter eggs like this I may have missed

Thank you for making a video on Jehovah's Witnesses.

I remember one of my favourite teachers with whom I had a fundamental disagreement. I remember arguing about this with her in front of the class, during a lesson. Neither of us convinced the other, but she cheerfully allowed me to present my viewpoint in class, and my grades never suffered as a result.

I'm generally kind to anyone who wants to "save my soul." But I always challenge those people. As a kid I once asked the JWs if alien life on other worlds is possible. It was a long uncomfortable silence.

Excellent video - possibly one of the best I've seen on the contradictions and superficialities that bedevil the JW organization and the fish-out-of-water awkwardness of the JW who is even slightly out of his or her comfort zone. I feel for their struggle to remain true to a deplorably anti-human belief system that champions unthinking authority over personal research and integrity.

Yfw quiet teacher starts wispering pumped up kicks.

I needed this in my life. Please dont stop. Please keep up with the stories dialogues. I'm preparing myself for the day when my family starts asking questions and I need to be able to respond in a respectful and open way that shows me as wanting them to understand how I became an atheist rather than showing them how to become atheist.

I hope some part of your talks made it through to Penny. I hope she made it out.

I love you TheraminTrees

The exact same scripts and thought-processes as JW's here in Denmark. I'd like to say it's unbelievable.. but it unfortunately isn't :(

8:44 every math teacher I’ve ever had. “Doesn’t matter if you can do problem 1 in 3 steps you have to use this 8 step system” “Why” “because this is my classroom and my rules”

I allways let them in.. weeks later I'll invariably bump into one in the street and they thank me for giving them a reason to question..

I love this video, I love it to pieces! It is like I am hitting the jackpot for videos helping me understand the JW organization and helping me with dissonance. thank you so so much. do you have any others? I just watched the cognitive dissonance one. thank you! thank you!

"What kind of teacher labels students rebellious for putting forth unconventional ideas?" Most American teachers.

Im in a private christian school, and whenever we ask the priest and all some deep questions about Bible and some weird stuff they never give us a proper answer.

Wow, great analysis! When I was an active JW I wasn’t afraid of people like you who challenged me to think. Little did I know, my own intellect was burbling away under the intellectual stagnation of the religion and tiny cracks were forming in the muck. That’s why when I left my starved mind drove me right into college and I did not miss the company of those dumbed down minions. Want to see JW hate, the real hate that simmers just below their carefully constructed veneer? Try being innocent of any moral wrongdoing and run into lifelong friends who sneer at you in the street for leaving the org. and going to school! An activity still scathingly denounced by their Governing Body members, by the way. Going to school is their equivalent of fornicating with the Devil. I don’t cut them any slack as I don’t believe as poor Anne Frank did, there is good in everyone. I’ve seen the mask come off JW people I knew for decades and it’s a life lesson I’ll never forget!

This was SUPERB! Thank you for posting!

It is a natural but flawed assumption that one has an adult mind when one has an adult body.

I always find the best comeback to "Thinking themselves wise, they became fools" is to agree fervently, and then smile knowingly at the offensive party.

I really appreciate the end!Normally,with religious debates or arguments online any side would quickly condemn and maybe passive aggressively mock the other side,while not being critical of their own selves and behaviour.I like the mindfulness and nuance