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BEST OF CODE TIME 2: Romex in Tubing, Ceiling Fans, J-Box Splices & Receptacles in Wet Locations

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When installing any type of electrical work, we must adhere, at a minimum, to the most current version of the NEC. In todays episode of Electrician U, Dustin explores a few code references that are pertinent to many applications.
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Say we have a residence that has an exterior patio type area. And that patio has a masonry wall around the outside of it. Installed on that wall are exterior fixtures that need to be wired. Should we be putting Non-Metallic Cable (Type NM) inside Electrical Non-Metallic Tubing? Article 334.12B tells us that NM cable is NOT allowed in wet or damp locations. The reason for needing to know that, is most conduits, when installed underground, WILL be exposed to wet or damp conditions. So, keeping that in mind, moving over to article 100 definitions, we find that in an outside environment and underground, that would classify as a WET location. Finally, Article 300.5B, which covers underground installations, states that the interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered WET locations and that conductors and cables installed within shall comply with 310.10C. In essence, 310.10C tells us that if we expose conductors to a wet location, they must be rated for that type of environment, which type NM cable is NOT.
NEC Code Article 314.27C tells us what boxes we must use when installing a ceiling fan. In essence, it tells us that boxes used for the sole support of ceiling fans must be listed, marked, and not support fans in excess of 70 lbs. For outlet boxes and outlet box systems designed to support ceiling fans that weigh more than 35 lbs., they also must be marked with the maximum weight supported. It furthermore tells us that in ceilings of habitable rooms of DWELLING OCCUPANCIES, in locations ACCEPTABLE for the installation of a ceiling fan, that we must provide a fan rated box. This means for a room within a residence, if you COULD at some point put a fan in that location, we must install a fan rated box. Reason being is, after we, the installing electrician leaves, we have no idea as to what that new owner will install, and we must leave them with an installation that would be safe for them to install a ceiling fan.
Article 314.29 requires us to install splices inside junction boxes, conduit bodies and handhole enclosures so that the wiring inside them can be accessible without removing any part of the building or structure. So, you must install your splice points where you can get after it without, for instance, having to cut a hole in the drywall.
Article 406 governs the usage of receptacles. 406.9 tells us that for wet or damp locations we must use weather resistant receptacles and for wet locations that installation must further be enclosed by something that is weatherproof regardless of whether or not something is actually plugged into it (enter the while in use cover plate!). Article 406.12 covers tamper resistant receptacles and basically tells us that any receptacle installed within a dwelling unit, guest room/guest suite, childcare, education facilities, business offices, dorm units, or assisted living facilities must be of the tamper resistant types. So, if you had an outside receptacle at a residence, it must be rated both WR and TR.

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6 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 84

@nobadmojo70 2 года назад

The best explanation I've heard regarding conduit environments is from Ryan Jackson. He suggests the conduit does not change the location type. That is the conduit does not change a wet environment to a dry environment just because the conduit is rated for it. Thank you again for your content.

@bingbongsby 2 года назад

Ryan Jackson is awesome!

@SuperVstech 2 года назад

What I've been told by inspectors is the environment does NOT change when conduit is used. If conduit is installed in a damp, or wet environment, the conductors must be rated for the environment, conduit is protection from damage only, it doesn't alter the environment

@robertball3578 2 года назад

I'm a big fan of the handbooks published by the same people who published the code. Usually more expensive than a " Time Life " version. I won over the inspector on two occasions (different states) by sharing the explanatory text and diagrams in the NFPA handbook.

@rebturtle 2 года назад

This is a fun thought experiment for code junkies, but here are the practical answers: 1 - Nonmetallic sheathed cable is not designed or listed to be installed in a conduit system. It is THHN-jacketed wire with a protective sheath, but that sheath is not as tough or abrasion-resistant as THHN or XHHW itself, which means it can snag and bunch easily, which does not work well when being pulled through conduit. 2 - NM cable has a bare ground (Typically) that is wrapped with paper. Not only is the bare ground subject to excessive corrosion in a damp environment, but the paper that keeps it positioned in the sheathing literally wicks and holds moisture around the bare copper. 3 - The sheathing around NM cable both acts as an additional insulating layer and takes up airspace (in a conduit). There is no specific calculation in the code book that I know of that allows for the extra space taken in a cross-section of conduit with regards to temp correction factors, let alone bundling or attempting to put two cables in one conduit with NM cable. What happens when someone tries to stuff two 12-3 Romex cables in a 3/4" EMT conduit on a rooftop? Can you fit 8 #12 THHN conductors in a 3/4" conduit? Sure. All day long. Can you do it with Romex? The code allows for sleeving NM cable to protect "against physical damage", but that is not the same as stuffing Romex in a full run of pipe because you're too lazy or cheap to come up with some rolls of THHN. 4 - There's the classic, "Can I just strip off the sheathing and use the wire?" question, to which the simple answer is No. The wire in NM cable is THHN jacketed (except the ground) rather than THWN, but there are no markings on it, so neither you, the inspector, or anyone after you can confirm whether it is THHN (75C max wet locations) or THWN (90C max wet locations).

@shieldcracker 2 года назад

Great commentary! It's evident that NM cable installations inside a conduit can come under attack, none the less in my opinion all the points you mention can be dealt with. Point 3 is most interesting and troublesome because is hard to quantify exactly the heating/dissipation effect of NM cables inside a raceway, but considering that NM-B wires have 90C rated insulation there is ample room for conductor ampacity adjustment (down to 70% ) and still allow the use of 20A breaker on 12ga cable.

@KingCruz270 2 года назад

@RonLeedy 2 года назад

I always go by the rule, “if in doubt, step up to next level. Don’t depend on the next guy’s work to be 100%”

@mattfleming86 2 года назад

uf/nmc is never far in price from standard romex. For the life of me I can't fathom why people would use romex instead. And while you're at it add a dab of noalox/oxguard on your junctions and terminations anywhere you can see the sky and you're not looking through a window.

@FishFind3000 2 года назад

Yep, with the plastic pipe you don’t ruin the wire if you hit it with a shovel. My sisters house has romex buried and done really ghetto so that wires have been damaged multiple times.

@poyo3582 2 года назад

They use it cause romex is easier to strip I suppose

@dracula3811 2 года назад

Good stuff. Always good to refer to the code book to make sure you're doing the work correctly.

@zimmermanlandscape9287 6 месяцев назад

Bro the only time you need a physical copy of the code book is if you’re taking an icc test online. The nfpa website offers free access to any version of the nec you want to see.

@ottoroth9377 2 года назад

Man...you definitely have a nice troubleshooting job...but I am betting this wire inside these columns may have a break in one or all of the conductors due to settlement of the concrete that has been poured! Personally I would run PVC from the point of the last good connection to the remaining fixtures and be done with it. You should do a followup on this and show how you solved it. Keep em coming Justin...you are a good and knowledgeable guy!

@christopherperry173 2 года назад

Could they have just used UF wire? It's similar to romex. Can you put UF wire in conduit? Curious why 310.10C doesn't mention UF specifically.

@HtownSpartan 2 года назад

LOVE YOUR VIDEOS!! Can we get a video of HOA switches please seems like alot of people can't explain right and simple, I'm pretty sure you guys would be awesome!!!

@jamesbarca7229 2 года назад

I prefer using saddle boxes for ceiling fans whenever possible. They are very easy to install and support up to 70-pound fans. They are plastic, but the screws holding the fan go through the box and into the joist making a very strong support.

@krich106 Год назад

Costs to much. I just use metal pancakes rated for fans. Bonus that its easier to install in awkward situations. I've hung from it myself, 220-lbs.

@jacobplank 2 года назад

Great video of everyday problems. Homeowners think you can put a ceiling fan wherever they wish without having to change the box out, I gotta admit I've done it before to but made sure the box was solid. I'm trying to make it a habit of changing the box out if adding a fan. And also Romex in conduits, the guy I worked with always just pulled in Romex regardless, but after I'm on my own now I've started to use thhn a lot and wondered why we ever worked that hard pulling in Romex. There's so many things that are easier if done right and by code.

@ssl3546 2 года назад

Well yeah if you are running conduit end to end you are a fool for putting romex in it. If the conduit is just for damage protection over part of a run it is better to avoid splices, all else being equal.

@briancoverstone4042 2 года назад

When installing anything heavy on the ceiling in my own house, I put up the beefiest box I can get my hands on. I find the boxes rated at 150lbs are super overkill but worth the extra $5 for the peace of mind.

@markchidester6239 2 года назад

The job you had on the deck lights. Because it wasn't done properly prior to you working on it, can you just repair it the best you can or does it have to be ripped apart and done to current codes?

@dustind292 2 года назад

Love the "Pause Face"...reminds me of the "Oh face" from the Office Space movie.

@jacgrobbelaar2425 2 года назад

Yup, absolutely agree with you on the safety thing...and yes...those were Zebra, Nyala and Blue Wildebeest. I stay in South Africa...didn't know they were found over there. Hope they are not the targets to be shot at. Beautiful animals.

@nospam865 2 года назад

NE Texas: some of the water boards around reservoirs have their own stricter codes for boat docks.

@chrissilva5659 Год назад

You misspoke it’s thwn not thhn that is for wet locations .but most are dual rated now at min

@corbettknowles9942 2 года назад

When I have a situation like that when the code I air on the side of caution if worried about the area being damp or moist I use wire that is for wet environment it may dry location by code but if it has potential get wet then I use correct type of wire

@josephagnone6146 2 года назад

Dustin, thanks for all you do. Possible for you to go over the “six handle rule”? Thanks brotha

@outlet6989 2 года назад

An excellent video, even though you have confused me. When explaining a point, it would be beneficial if you showed us what the fixture/device looks like. An excellent example, at least to me, would be showing an example of what a ceiling fan support looks like.

@FlightDoc Год назад

Wait what, THHN is for wet environments? I’m installing PVC conduit on exposed outdoor wall, don’t I need to use THWN or UF cable? Table 310.4(A)

@garbo8962 Год назад

If in a damp or wet location wire type MUST have a W in it like THWN, XHHN, THW. All the wire spools that I have used in last 40 up years are always at least dual rated. Example = THHN/THWN.

@FlightDoc Год назад

@@garbo8962 Perfect! Thx

@detcat312 2 года назад

so I do have a question romex in tubing in dry location ok , or no, I bought a house where I found romex in tubing was wondering if I should pull and replace.

@SuperVstech 2 года назад

It is fine.

@andrewquigley6508 2 года назад

I almost pulled my code book out

@benjamincamping8134 2 года назад

Yo please keep making code vids super helpful

@samsutton6699 2 года назад

Do you have a video on boaring and drilling studs, joist and rafters? If not can you put one out and reference code also?

@Ak3rn0 2 года назад

I think you’ve addressed it before, but can’t find the video. What’s you opinion/code about service loops?

@brandonhorwath6351 Год назад

If it's outside, always call it wet.

@jasonh8542 Год назад

Can anyone PLEEEEASE recommend an electrician influencer like ELECTRICIAN U for Canada. Is so hard to find any content like this for Canadian Electrical code.

@lrmackmcbride7498 7 месяцев назад

The two don't differ very much. You might want to study where they differ. Officially the NOM in mexico is based on the NEC. But it seems to match up code for code, just in spanish.

@poyo3582 2 года назад

Outro has a minecraft reference? epic!

@jackcobbiii1797 2 года назад

Like the law when pulled;)

@renaisnisbett 2 года назад

Question for though interested into becoming Electricians. Do you need a "mentor" in order to get started?

@JohnThomas-lq5qp 2 года назад

No but it would be helpful. My dad & uncle were electricians and from the age of 10 would go out on weekends with them to do a 100 amp service & install receptacles . Went to great VoTech school 15 hours a week for Industrial Electricity and I was so far ahead of other students shop teacher would send me out to install receptacles in class rooms. Only good way of learning is to attend a quality school. Get good at troubleshooting and if possible VFD drives. I retired from a 7 man shop and was the guy that got called to troubleshoot, repair & replace drives from 2 to 200 HP. A lot easier on your back & rest of the body doing that rather then installing heavy conduit and pulling large wires.

@danielbonner8309 Год назад

I have a 10/3 NM wire that goes into a conduit to my dryer. There no connectors on the conduit in the attic the nm wire just goes into it. Anyone know if this is legal?

@poyo3582 2 года назад

I always like to think when I come to damp and wet locations just mind as well over kill it with a WRTR GFCI and a bubble cover that way I don't have to think twice

@edgargalarza6894 2 года назад

Which nec code states you can run romex in conduit less than 6’?

@2point..0 2 года назад

Dustin, great content as always!!! Liked#23

@bigcountry5520 2 года назад

Ya, if it's outside, not covered, it's wet. Use THWN

@MicahFunk Год назад

Wet/damp environment... Ultimately it depends if your work is being inspected and how they interpret the pertaining codes. You can respectively talk code with the inspector but be willing to accept their interpretation because we all know that they can make your life miserable if you start being an ass.

@donaldourand4899 2 года назад

You already said that when you were trouble shooting the lights.

@briandish1787 2 года назад

What if the ceiling fan was installed before this code, can one be made to change this when selling a house or is it grandfathered in?

@LordSaliss 2 года назад

It is grandfathered in. Things already installed and up to code when they were installed dont have to all be changed out to the current code when a house is sold. Otherwise, we would have millions of homes that should have been upgraded, because their electrical hasnt been changed or even looked at in decades.

@scottlundy257 2 года назад

I was allways told that romex is open air rated only not to be installed in conduit.

@zakariyaal-doori7890 2 года назад

Does it work for Canada too ? This book ?

@illestofdemall13 2 года назад

No, the NEC (National Electrical Code) is the USA's code.

@shieldcracker 2 года назад

I don't think this ambiguous since it is an exterior installation so is considered a wet location.

@markborchers6447 2 года назад

I see people using pancakes everywhere, a buddy and i got into a dicussion on fan rated pancakes. How many of yall use fan rated pancakes and pull 14-3 to them?

@JohnThomas-lq5qp 2 года назад

Believe a 1/2" deep pancake box does not have enough cubic inches to allow a 14/3 NM ( Romex ) cable especially if you use a standard two screw Romex connector. At an IAEI continuing education class were told that can not use NM cable to feed any outdoor box because it's not rated for wet or damp location. So it appears that you have to use UF cable.

@kapatid_fred 2 года назад

Shout please

@Keatononame13 2 года назад

Before I was an apprentice I got a technical degree in electricity, my instructor was previously an inspector for Milwaukee County. He told us straight up, don't put Romex in conduit, ever. If you need to run conduit for something, use standalone conductors. Fast forward 3 months where I'm about to graduate, there were some dual-enrollment kids from high school trying to push and struggle even 10 ft of romex through a j-box with attached conduit, safe to say I saw it, my buddies saw it, my instructor saw it....after letting them struggle for 30 mins I told them they shouldn't be doing that, that they should get the wire cart, (which was initially suggested by my instructor); they slyly tried to pull a fast one. End of story, I told them this, they seemed upset, and one of them asked if it was a code violation, I said yes, and the other kid said sorry, we're just some dumbass kids in a really shitty tone, I replied, "I appreciate your honesty". 👍👍

@barryomahony4983 2 года назад

Your instructor was wrong. Nothing in the Code prohibits putting Romex in conduit. In fact, 334.15(B) requires it in certain locations. In most locations it doesn't make sense to do so, but it's not a code violation.

@Keatononame13 2 года назад

@@barryomahony4983 Fair enough and I can agree. Entirely possible we were simulating direct burials in our stalls when I remember hearing this. Regardless I genuinely appreciate the knowledge; your statement also remains correct in the 2017 NEC. (if you use 2020 where you're at) Currently working industrial so I haven't been exposed heavily to Romex, let alone enough code time to consider myself educated. 👍

@barryomahony4983 2 года назад

@@Keatononame13 Sure if he was talking about burials he's spot on; inside a buried conduit is a wet location per Code, and per reality (you always get some water inside it). Just run some THWN through it. Not a big fan of UF and PVC conduit is cheap, so I'd rather run PVC and pull THWN

@Keatononame13 2 года назад

@@barryomahony4983 Understood and thanks again. For my knowledge, THWN-2 is effectively the same in approved uses and utilizes same derating(s) as THHN correct?

@illestofdemall13 2 года назад

@@Keatononame13 Sometimes you may have a circuit run in NM that needs to be protected at some point in its run, so you can sleeve it in EMT or PVC conduit. But for long runs of raceways it makes sense to use single conductors like THHN or THWN.

@gabedaily8238 2 года назад

My dumbass was asking about this today at work. Are you reading my mind??

@matthewblankowski2265 2 года назад

So question. If the conductors in romex are THHN then....? Is it because the ground is bare that it's a problem?

@SuperVstech 2 года назад

THHN is not wet listed...

@barryomahony4983 2 года назад

@@SuperVstech ... and neither is the brown paper filler 😉

@NotMuchHere 2 года назад

how can you do that to those poor lalalallamam'sa

@romanconnection1 Год назад

Thhn no rated for wet location thwn xxhw is

@lbarocio 2 года назад

You shaved!!!

@chadhardwick9214 2 года назад

At the end of the day.... The Romex jockeys didn't have rolls of thhn... Way too advanced for most of them it seems..... And then add a fish tape in the mix..... Super confusing.....

@jasonirion6664 2 года назад

For ceiling fans just use long wood screws and screw through the mounting bracket into the joist. That way you don’t need a fan box.

@N-hunter 2 года назад

Not allowed by code

@mattfleming86 2 года назад

You need a fan box. Its not just about mounting the box its about the joint between the fan and the box (specifically the threads)

@markchidester6239 2 года назад

This one is a classic example of using the proper materials is actually easier. They are made user friendly and designed for a specific purpose with no modification needed. A couple of extra dollars and you have a one hundred percent failure proof install. Be proud of yourself knowing a job was done correctly.