Book of Mormon Characters Examined - Dan Vogel 

Amazing amount of research.

The ending was PRECIOUS!!!!

To my untrained eye, the characters in the sources Vogel showed in the video look very similar to the 'Caracters' that were supposedly the ones Joseph Smith sent with Martin Harris. It would make sense that, if Smith was copying from these sources, he would alter them just enough to make them dissimilar to anything else. This would naturally render them indecipherable. He did something similar with the 'Facsimiles' in the Book of Abraham where he filled in part of the rim of the Hypocephalus by copying and slightly altering other markings found on it. (See Facsimile 2 in the Book of Abraham). Modern day Egyptologists are able to see that his attempt was an obvious fraud.

I've watched almost all of Dan's videos and I have to say wtf was I thinking? I believed in the authenticity of the BoM and Joseph's prophetic call for almost 25 years. I never knew any of this information

11:47 I cannot find the inverted symbol in The Improvement Era. Is it in "About the Book of Mormon"? If so, I need to get an image/scan of the page where that is from, as I cannot find this anywhere.

Thanks Dan! Enjoyed the video!!

Dan. What us the source of the occult characters found at timestamp 14:18?

I thank you for your thorough, well presented research

- at 5:31 this vid gives size of the sample - isn't there a B of M that gives the size of the plates ? - you could calculate the total square feet and just divide by the # of pages or avg # of words per page - - Smith got 46 words from a single character in the B of Abe - are Chapter Names legit Hebrew Names ?

Good research

Hello Mr. Vogel, I had a question regarding the size of the alleged plates, would it be possible for the entire book of Mormon to fit on the "plates"? Tiny characters maybe?

To Vogel and any other LDS viewers: I thought that it was known which chapters in the Book of Mormon these characters were copied from. I heard this somewhere but can't remember where. If there is such a quote, it would be a reasonble task to use computers to see if there is any correlation between the Whitmer document caractors and the ENglish text in the BOM. If an LDS source provides the BOM citation, I am sure Vogel would be willing to take up the challenge.

If this isn't even the original anthon script, with columns and a zodiac on it, then why are we wasting our time deciphering it at all?

@DanVogel Anthon's name is pronounced Anton. In the Independence area the "Caractors" [sic] is called the Anton Manuscript.

23:35 "Holiness to The Lord" parchment. Gee, where have I seen/read/heard THAT phrase!!!

Another great video, Dan. I have a question: In what year did Joseph first assign a name to the spirit/angel who guarded the gold plates?

A translation of the Caractors Document is found at www.bmslr.org

I' am a Christian pastor, and have been studying LDS for a few years now. It amazes me to see just how much you have put into this. You, my friend, are an expert, and I am in your debt for making this easier to picture. There are so many excellent details that I have to watch everything at least two times in order to absorb it. When I am older, and not working a secular job, I will be able to dive in like you have. Thanks so much.

For an "uneducated person," Joseph seems to have know about "the language"....the names of different languages. Where did he hear/read that? Could those not be a source for his discombobulated "carators"???

One question that I have is where is the English translation that went along with the characters, it was sent along with the characters at the time it was shown to the professor. Yet the professor told Martin that it was a true translation, which lead Martin to Mortgage his farm to have the Book Of Mormon published. Without the other half how can anyone come to a true or false conclusion?

Johnny Stephenson also did groundbreaking research and analysis on just this topic. You should look into his work.

Larry Scott Where can I find the information you mention?

Im just starting the video, but some of those look ethiopian to me. Fascinating subject.

If your jesus gives all a resurrected body then why do you say only husbands call wives from the graves? Resurrected means up from the grave...anyone have an answer?

The is no such thing as "reformed Egyptian". Consequently if the Anthon Manuscript is not hieroglyphic, hieratic, nor demotic, then the entire thing is a fraud.

God bless all his good people, I'm not a hater and I know that God has a plan and will gather the pure hearted people. They will be of all Faith's, not just morman. They will be as you say Muslim, Mehtodist, Jewish, Baptist ect.

So let me get this straight... -The language of Lehi, a Hebrew prophet who had lived in Jerusalem all his life, was Egyptian. -It was important to get the plates of brass to preserve the commandments and the "LANGUAGE of our fathers" (1 Nephi 3:19). Now this was Nephi talking, so if the language of his father is Egyptian, it follows that the plates containing the writings of the prophets and Lehi's genealogy was Egyptian. -Preserving the Egyptian language was so important, that Nephi, who had never killed anyone, cuts Laban's head off. -But as soon as Nephi starts writing his own plates, he "reforms" Egyptian into something completely unrecognizable (as shown in this video) as do all his successors. Even though often times the book is supposed to be quoting directly from the brass plates. -The original plates keep being handed down from generation to generation for 1000 years as something sacred, but the preservation of the original language never happens. -The other reason to get the plates, to prevent their people from "dwindling in unbelief". Also fails. How could anybody today believe this book is for real? ... Oh, wait I forgot, they prayed to god and they had a warm, fuzzy feeling, which is the best, most reliable and irrefutable proof that the Tower of Babel is history rather than a fable, and this book wasn't a crude fabrication by a snake oil salesman.

In 1831-1835 Josiah Priest published "American Antiquities and Discoveries in the West. 1835 is 5th edition and says "22,000 copies have been published within 30months..." So, more than 50,000 copies seems reasonable. Around pg 122 are examples of so called letters of Phoenicians and Americans. copied by Dr Adam Clarke. Elsewhere, Quoting RF Rafinesque: "The similarities between the African and American Letters used....beyond a doubt ...were also known in the Americas..." A comparison is provided. All nonsense. Then Egyptian and other comparisons are made. Illustrations provided. But interestingly it says The Atlantic antiquities are more obscure than the Egyptian. "No CHAMPOLLION had raised their veil". So, Champ' was known. There are other references to Champ'. It's often claimed Champollion was not known in the USA. And that Joe did his translation at such a time. If Joe had spent $1 on just one edition of Priest's book he could have saved himself a lot of trouble. I bought 4. For $30-100. Poor Joe.

Curious, that 30 of those characters are essentially identical to 30 such characters found on the Rosetta Stone, which was not available to Joseph Smith. Champollon had not published his analysis of Egyptian from the Rosetta Stone in English, and Joseph Smith did not have a library in backwoods New York that would have had anything remotely relevant. Moreover, Barry Fell, a Harvard linguist and a non-mormon, declared that the language resembled "reformed Egyptian".

The easiest thing that Joseph might have attempted is a soft pencil (or charcoal) rubbing from two or three of the plates. Of course the damned things did not exist. Rubbings are the first "copies" folks try for all sorts of things from tomb stones to coins, from cast engravings to brick art. No rubbings, no plates.

Today's Jewish children can read 2,000 year old writings found on stones from the Temple at Jerusalem, yet Joseph Smith said that Jewish people in the Americas wrote in a language that was, and is, unknown in lsrael, (or anywhere else.) 'Reformed Egyptian' should appear on thousands of artifacts, pottery, plates,coins, buildings, if it was used by them. Nothing has been found, from the great civilization that flourished for centuries,( as Joseph Smith claimed). The most powerful evidence against the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is the Book of Mormon itself. Kind regards to all

Dan, I just finished your book Making of a Prophet and enjoyed it very much. I thought it would be way too detailed for me but I found it fascinating. It was insight into early American culture in the back woods and small towns. What a superstitious lot they were and especially those who claimed to be religious. Looking for your next book now.

One commentator here mentioned that Prof. Barry Fell had identified the characters on the plate as reformed Egyptian, but look at Berry Fell's writeup: >>Barry Fell (born Howard Barraclough Fell) (June 6, 1917 - April 21, 1994) was a professor of invertebrate zoology at the Harvard Museum of Comparative Zoology. While his primary professional research included starfish and sea urchins, Fell is best known for his controversial work in New World epigraphy, arguing that various inscriptions in the Americas are best explained by extensive pre-Columbian contact with Old World civilizations. His writings on epigraphy and archaeology are generally rejected by those mainstream scholars who have considered them.

All occult masonry

If any of this bogus reporting were actually true, it does nothing to explain the appearance of the Book of Mormon itself. Linguists far more schooled than Dan Vogel have considered not only this small representation of the characters from the Book of Mormon as translated by Joseph Smith, but have also considered the Book of Mormon by its actual translation as relating to languages akin to what the BofM refers to as "reformed Egyptian." The cognates between many of such languages is staggering and more than sufficient to prove that either Joseph Smith was a fraud of such brilliance that the likes of him have never been seen anywhere else, especially considering his utter lack of any higher-order education, or the BofM came about exactly as he said it did. And if Joseph Smith was nothing more than a charismatic charlatan, and the BofM so obvious a fairy tale, then people would be making up such fairytales right and left. But in point of fact, the BofM is a highly complex, lengthy, and utterly consistent record that even the best of writers would find impossible to duplicate. More to the point, all of the accusations leveled against the BofM are EXACTLY the same accusations atheists level against the Bible. The Bible is simply a composition of stories, written over the space of better than a thousand years, with self-fulfilling passages designed to fool the gullible, with a questionable historicity, made-up dates, names, situations, people, you name it. The Bible itself states nowhere in its pages that it is the last of all revelations to come from God, that it contains everything anyone needs to find salvation, nor does it indicate which passages should be taken literally or be taken figuratively. What did the meridian Saints use then to "know" that Jesus was the Christ if there was no "Bible" and the OT was only meant for the Jewish people?! To argue that the Bible is true because you believe it is from God is just plain irrational thinking. God doesn't need the Bible to communicate to anyone, but as men are moved upon by the Holy Ghost their recorded words become scripture, and it is that same Holy Ghost which then bears witness to men on earth that the Bible is true. The same is true with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon!

This "caracter" document has been translated successfully by Jerry D. Grover, Jr. You can download his PDF books for free. The characters were not invented by Joseph Smith but are a mixture of Mayan, Egyptian and other near eastern languages. Be brave enough to investigate for yourself.

Vogel has the point of view of a non-believer. We cannot fault him for this. He was trying to test a hypothesis that if the BOM characters are fakes, perhaps one can find a source from which Joseph Smith got ideas for making the fabrication. The smoking gun could have been a book that has several alphabet Examples, and Vogel finding a mapping between the characters in the Whitmer document to all the character displayed in that book. What Vogel states at the end is: he and others who looked very hard, could not find any such source. Therefore, either the characters are from a completely unknown language that evolved in such a way over 1000s of years that it has no similarity to any other ancient alphabets OR Joseph Smith was a very clever fellow and created characters that just happened to be varied enough that through coincidence, have no obvious source. So, even using Ockham's razor to choose between the 2 choices above (meaning which is the simpler possibility), it is hard to choose between the 2. So the characters are either real in absence of finding something they could be copied from, OR Joseph was a super super genius OR Joseph was extremely lucky in creating fake characters (like 1 out of 999 Trillion) that defied close examination. I think Vogel should have explored the deformed English concept further, it was the best evidence of fabricated characters.

This video appears to me to be much ado about 3 or 4 lines of symbols as Shakespeare would have it. Read the full translation of the symbols known as The Book Of Mormon if you wish to gain wisdom. Forget the glory of the world.

Dan this is very well done. THANK YOU for making it and all your study. I know as I study the Book of Mormon that Mormon himself was frustrated with writing and the obstacles he faced and had faith God would prepare a way. I see the evidences of the Book of Mormon slowly coming forth out of Guatamala and southern Mexico and little by little the world will also know.

Very interesting, but the lack of proof does not prove something decisively either way, right?

No

Lucy Harris, was indeed skeptical of Joseph Smith and his "golden plates" story, and steadfastly refused to give or loan any needed funds whatsoever. Only if she was allowed to see the plates for herself. That was her final discission... She went to bed stubborn and angry. The following morning she capitulated and even insisted on donating money ($28.) She also told a story of an angelic visitation in which she was chastised and shown the plates. There were at least three other women who saw the plates (or the outline of the plates under a cloth.) These are not included in the eleven "official" eye witnesses. Most would leave the Church for one reason or another. None would ever retract any of their initial claims. Judge the Book of Mormon on it's content and nothing else. There are no experts today, who are able to prove or disprove a thing... BTW, One of the most difficult languages to understand and read today, is "15th Century, Middle English." Most writing within the Book of Mormon, predates the birth of Christ, and then only 385 years thereafter.

Dan Vogel excellent job with these tests do not want to know the truth is that he is not interested ..... thank you very much for this job

Can you say CULT?

In my completely uninformed opinion, this looks exactly as shoddy as we might expect from someone who misspells "Caractors". And I believe that the story that it's a "copy" is a rather pathetic and unsuccessful attempt to muddy the waters (-as if whoever copied it would have made any mistakes). If I had to guess, I'd guess Joseph wrote it himself. And that it was not intended for anything other than to personally brainstorm ideas for a made up language. It was probably never intended to be seen by anyone, or even kept. But I'd guess that someone did find it, and went public with it as a subtle way to expose Joseph as a fraud. Unable to suppress it, perhaps after decades, the Church could only try to glorify it, and mistify it, and just hope that no followers ever think too hard about it.

Personally I don’t have the time to spend researching any of this mess nor do I care who and how many believe this. There are those that will believe this because “the spirit” trumps all common sense and evidence to the contrary. To them I am a carnal, sensual, devilish man in a fallen state that is an enemy to god hence I need this to be fixed. Unfortunately I know myself and this couldn’t be further from the truth, I could care less what they think and waste no time thinking about it.

You prove nothing, who's to say if this was only a clever copy. But nice try

Dan why should I care what you think if your garbage foult finding leads yourself and others down a road that hurts your potential and others in overcoming ourselves and our weaknesses to become like our Heavenly parents. You know as will as I do that there is a reason and a purpose in us being here on this spinning blue planet. Is your purposes and reason in finding fault to hurt yourself and your potential. I have learned that you can learn to hate anybody or anything by finding fault. We all have our weaknesses to overcome..Dan can you will you grow up and .stop finding fault with Christ and His true living prophets and apostles today. Also the great prophet Joseph Smith of course he had his weaknesses to overcome but that great prophet Joseph Smith brought a great amount of neat truth and light to the world. The teaching like we are real children of real Heavenly parents. That we can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. That it is our weaknesses that keep us from God. That you could not develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God you are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. Dan you are more than a physical body you are a child of our Heavenly Father you are one of his spirit children. Dan you have great potential inspite of your desire to find fault. Think about life it is so beautiful wonderful that we can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents .I say parents because we all keep our bodies after resurrection why come to earth get a body if we can not keep it after resurrection. Dan it is unwise to hurt yourself and your potential by finding fault with Christ and His true prophets and apostles they had their own set of weaknesses to overcome to learn the lessons they came here to learn. Why find fault? No need Dan God loves you grow up. For what it will make of you . No need to be a fault finder thats what they did to Christ to crusifie Him .

Fake copy of copy of copy

How funny. I know what I know..Joseph Smith was not a con man. He did have some very painful growing processes experiences eitch have of had that perception but he was not a con man. Have you ever read the new testament and all the lies and crazy things they said about our lord and savior Jesus Christ. I know that a baby can grow up and become an adult. I know that we can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. I know that it is manes weaknesses that keep us from God. I know that I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. The same is true with our Heavenly Father He is only one and the Father of our spirits. That does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. In heaven it is pure love that our Heavenly Father wants us to grow up and become like He is. What in the world do you think bring glory to His name but becoming like He is. Just like a baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. It is our weaknesses that keep us from God. And God has always worked through true living prophets not only for what it would make of them but the good it does for those who would repent and listen ..yes that baby can grow up and become an adult. Yes we can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. I say parents because we all keep our bodies after resurrection. Why come to earth get a body if we can not keep it after resurrection? Boy oh boy some of my brothers and sisters..but we all need help at times understanding. Love

Some people find fault to make themselves look wiser to bring glory to themselves. Dan reminds me of one of these guys reather than looking for the good . Pore Dan is seems like he could find something better to do with his life . I think he must be getting a lot of mileage out of it .

I would say the book is true just based on how it influences people for good for the truth contained therein . To say definitively that it isn't true seems like a stretch of reason

his whole argument relies on this piece of paper ??? the gold plates were not from egypt anyway so they don't have to be exactly like hieroglyphics we are used to . The point is records were kept of a civilization in order to preserve Gods true doctrine concerning mans salvation This only makes sense to someone who choses not to believe

A load of rubbish

Meaninlous doodles that does not sound like serious business .your channel is a bunch of big mouth stuffing to bring glory to your neme as if you are someone besides a fault finder. Dan there is a purpose and reason in us being here on this spinning blue planet. That purpose and reason is to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents. Not to find fault with Christ and His true prophets. Prophets have the right to grow up and learn from their mistakes to..Dan if you new everything you would be a God Dan you are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. The essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Not to find fault with others .Dan you would not like someone always mouthing garbage about you .that is not Christ like .why would anyone want to find fault with Christ and His true living prophets and today apostles. It is unwise to find fault with Gods true prophets as if you knew more .even sence this spinning blue planet was created and all the worlds of God anytime we as real children of real Heavenly parents have desired to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents are God has always called true living prophets teachers . There has always been find fault people that try to kill the faith of true believers. I am not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. You know Dan that you could not develop faith if you new everything...Dan you are a big mouth without understanding of knowing everything. Dan you should not want to be stupid and hurt yourself and your potential and possibly the potential of others. Wise up Dan and find something more productive to do with your life .Stop thinking you are a know it all .I do not know everything but what I do know I know. One of the things that I do know and that is that Jesus is Lord the savior of the whole world. That we are more than a physical body. That why call Him Heavenly Father unless He is. Just like I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers.. the same is true with our Heavenly Father He is only one and the Father of our spirits that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven. There is not limit to space .Dan it is pure love that our Heavenly Father desires for us to grow up and become like He is. This is one thing that brings glory to His name. Dan repent repent repent. For the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. It is our weaknesses that keep us from God. Love Dan love ya . repent it will help you in your potential and becoming processes of adulthood Godhood true happiness and true parenthood in the life to come . Dan you are smarter than what you are doing. Time to grow up and repent.

Oh Dan you pore baby let's all grow up and become more like God reather than find fault and be a big mouth. When you did not live back then .you were not in the tent with the bear.

Satan will never stop trying to destroy the true Church Of God, The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Nice try😂

All your documentation and trying to prove the Book of Mormon wrong, is of no avail mr. I have read the book of Mormon and the spirit bears witness that it is a true book.

My two-year-old son could do better than that. It's all a Fairy Tail. Smith was a fraud a liar and Evil

WE NOTE THAT VOGEL ADMITTED THAT THE CHARACTERS WITMER SAW IS UNCERTAIN. WE ALSO NOTE THAT THE CHARACTERS ANTON SAW ARE UNCERTAIN. WE ALSO NOTE THAT THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT BY ANTON SUPPORTED THE BOOK OF MORMON THEN HE CHANGED HIS REPORT AFTER HE WAS INFORMED WHO JOSEPH SMITH WAS. ( GUESS HE NEEDED TO BE POLITICALLY CORRECT) VOGEL SEEMS TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THIS OR HAS PURPOSELY NOT INCLUDED IT. WE ALSO NOTE NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THESE CHARACTERS COME FROM BUT CERTAINLY THEY ARE NOT THE WRITING OF JOSEPH SMITH. VOGEL IS JUST GUESSING AS USUAL...

A translation of the Caractors Document is found at www.bmslr.org