Box Canyon, Thousand Springs State Park, Idaho: relict of a mysterious flood with an unknown origin 

Thanks for your comments and glad you found me. I know Nick pretty well. He is much more ambitious than I am.

Thanks for watching. Nick is much more ambitious than I am but it is fun to share with folks.

Thanks for watching and learning with me. I am not aware of any archaeological evidence or remains in the canyon but perhaps some exist.

Not too far away are the Hagerman fossil beds, so there's that.

@@steveegbert7429 Archeology is primarily the study of human activity, artifacts and civilization throughout time. Paleontology is the study of fossils of all sorts, sea life, animal, plant, even microbiological deep into geologic time as preserved and presented in the fossil records. Archeologist can study human artifacts preserved in tombs that aren't fossilized and artifacts that while buried in shifting sands tell of past human activities but aren't safe from immediate deterioration when exposed to air.

@@seriouslyreally5413 My mistake, sorry! I knew that but a few brews tend to mix things up in this ancient brain. Still, it's a very cool area.

Thanks for watching and learning with me.

The ice sheet did not extend this far south. Plus there are huge mountains in the way. But it is possible the flood at Box Canyon was related to smaller mountain glaciers in the Pioneer and Boulder Mountains which form the headwaters of the Big and Little Wood River systems.

Yes indeed. In fact, some of the recent research done here was to use a terrestrial analog to better understand similar features seen on Mars. Lamb et al reference: www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1156630

@@shawnwillsey All very interesting hypotheses, but left with more questions than answers. Fun to think about how the earth was sculpted though. Some think that these canyons ( Like the Grand Canyon ) were created by one giant flood event, I don't buy it. The canyons with their solid walls would take millions of years for water to sculpt...

Take an in depth read on a site called The Thunderbolts Project. It WILL change ones perception of how these types of canyons were originally formed.( both on earth and Mars)

@@invisibilianone6288 I’ll save everyone’s time by pointing out that you’re peddling Electric Universe, which is about as scientifically valid as flat earth codswallop.

@@chrisidahoastro6258 you are still following mainstream science,,, which used to force the flat earth B.S. Without electricity, NOTHING would be.

Super good question. Lamb et al, 2008 (www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1156630) sampled four different scoured rock surfaces in the canyon from the head of the canyon to near its mouth. Three of these were large, stable boulders and one was from bedrock above the head of the canyon. Two locations (including bedrock at head) yielded ages of 45 to 48 thousand years old. The other two boulders yielded ages of 21 and 19 thousand years old. Each of these have error bars ranging from 1 to 5 thousand years old.

@@shawnwillsey Thank you Shawn, for some reason the link isn't pulling up the paper, but I'll see if I can find it later to read. In the meantime, I have a hypothesis. If we take the margin of error into account, the two boulders measured at 21 and 19 are close enough to the Bonneville flood to have perhaps been from the same event. Whereas the bedrock may have had some surface exposure prior to the flood, perhaps? Looking at the orientation of the box canyon, we can see several other canyons oriented fairly similarly near Hagerman. If you cross reference that with the orientation of other canyons closer to Twin Falls, the orientation is remarkably similar. If we ignore the orientation of the river for the moment, and look at the broader area, it would suggest to me that the canyons near Hagerman were cut by a flood traveling much the same direction as the cuts near Twin Falls. Zooming out on a satellite view of the general area, from Hagerman to Twin Falls, you can see the faint trace of undeveloped land, hiding among the patchwork of farm fields... And in areas where it is undeveloped... You can see a bit of similarity to the areas that lost their topsoil closer to Twin. A ghost of a shallower flood path perhaps? My suggestion is... Perhaps the northern flow channel of the Bonneville that emptied into the canyon near twin wasn't the only northern route the flood took. Perhaps there were multiple northern flow channels, one of which intersected the Snake at a near 90 degree angle or so near Hagerman, or perhaps the main flood entered a pinch point in the Snake River Canyon, perhaps near Auger Falls or Niagara, overtopped the canyon and flooded over the plain until re-entering the river further downstream near Hagerman, carving multiple intersecting canyons there with the Snake. Perhaps both of these occured, perhaps following existing stream or creek channels and carving them deeper. Just a hypothesis based on my own observations, but perhaps there's a paper that'll debunk that idea. 😂 What do you think?

@@SkyFox720 Great observations and ideas. I really like how you think. The Eden Channel is strongly supported by clear evidence of overland flow, scabland, some gravel deposits, and scouring of rock surfaces. Not to mention the intense erosion and awesome landscapes created where it rejoined the Snake River around Twin Falls. The possibility of another overland path west of the Eden Channel is not as promising. The Snake River has a much wider valley west of Twin Falls and appears to have contained the entire flood. The water slowed down along much of this reach and deposited large boulders (as opposed to the erosion where the canyon is narrow). Without a constriction to back up the water and no obvious overland evidence, it seems the flood stayed along the Snake River through here. As you move westward toward Box Canyon and Malad Gorge, you have to also consider the Big and Little Wood Rivers (called the Malad when merged) as they coalesce with the Snake River around Hagerman. Large floods on these rivers seem to align better with these two locations than the Bonneville Flood. These floods may have been generated by either glacial damming and collapse in the headwaters region near Sun Valley or damming of these rivers by lava from local eruptions. Nonetheless, the landscapes and possible scenarios are fascinating! Thanks for watching, learning, and questioning.

Hey thanks for watching and learning with me. Yes, I’ve been a climber for 30 years, guide part time for sawtooth mountain guides, and teach climbing courses at CSI. I’m also getting more into canyoneering as well.

@@shawnwillsey That's awesome! I've been climbing for about 20 years and it's what got me interested in geology.

@@markvincent522 Rocks: good for climbing, good for studying.

Don't throw them, though. Nor, roll them down their rock faces.

Thanks for watching and learning with me.

Hmm. I have not visited these areas personally so really can't answer. The Missoula Flood was plenty large enough to have created scoured and striated rock surfaces so I would suspect they exist as evidence. Their preservation would depend partly on climate as weathering and growth of moss and vegetation would obscure direct observation.

Awesome. Thank you for your continual support to make more videos.

Glad you like them! Thanks.

The Snake River Plain (large arcuate swath across southern Idaho is mostly covered with basalt. There is also quite a bit along the western edge of the state.

Awesome. Enjoy it and some of the other nearby sites like Malad Gorge and Thousand Springs.

Thanks!

The water is super cold (~53 degrees F) so even in the summer it's not enticing for a swim. As for kayaking, there is no easy way to access the water with a boat. There is a nice little trail that takes you into the canyon and a 20-ft waterfall downstream. And yes, this was done on a weekday. Thanks for watching!

@@shawnwillsey : You're welcome.And I would use a wetsuit and do some snorkling in that water.

@@ebayerr Agreed. It's on my list. Tricky to get to though as there is lots of poison ivy and stinging nettle lining the stream and no easy path to these pools. With my climbing experience, I think I would rappel in directly.

@@shawnwillsey :Seems as though nature put up a natural barrier to dissuade the casual hiker from visiting.

Perhaps there was a small surface stream or drainage with that shape that the flood accentuated.

Glad you enjoyed it

Thanks for watching and learning. Yes, there are some other similar "box" canyons in the area such as several at Malad Gorge State Park. There is a lesser pronounced one just south of this one called Blind Canyon. If the flooding here came from the nearby Malad River (combined Big and Little Wood Rivers), then glacial meltwaters could have played a role as both of these rivers have their headwaters in areas that were glaciated.

Good question. Box Canyon is too far south to have been impacted by the continental ice sheet. There is also a large set of mountains in central Idaho and along the Continental Divide between the Snake River Plain and the ice sheet. It is likely however that the flooding event (or events) at Box Canyon were affected by glacial runoff (either elevated or perhaps quickly released) by smaller mountain glaciers in the Pioneer Mountains (near Sun Valley).

I'll have to check out this area in Cumbria that you mention. It sounds interesting. As for Box Canyon having a glacial origin, definitely not. Glacial striations will cover larger, more continuous rock surfaces. Furthermore, glaciers did not advance into the low elevations of the Snake River Plain at this latitude. They were confined to high elevations (over 8,000 ft or so). Plus the striations here are only found at head of canyon and point towards Snake River, indicating flow direction. I have an older video with so-so audio that shows glacial striations that might be helpful: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HUWgx4WfLZw.html

Good question, Trevor. Your hypothesis would necessitate the water table (surface of groundwater) lie a good 150 feet or so higher than present. Certainly the elevation of the water table can and does change (even seasonally). Each aquifer is different in terms of how much fluctuation there is and is largely dictated by the area of the aquifer, permeability of the aquifer (how easily water flows through it), and precipitation variations. The water table was likely much higher thousands of years ago during wetter periods. Regardless of elevation changes of water table which would dictate spring location, the spring is still grossly underfit to cut, carve, and excavate the canyon.

I do not think the upper part is dry under the basalt. It is just forced to plummet downward and then comes back up in a path opening. The Springs were active long before the Basalt evercame.

Thanks for watching. The continental ice sheet was nowhere near this area. It was much further north in northwest Montana and the extreme northern tip of Idaho. Furthermore, there are large mountains in central Idaho and along the Continental Divide that separated the ice sheet from the Snake River Plain. The ice sheet blocked the Clark Fork River near Missoula, creating an ice dam that breached to generate the Missoula floods that ravaged eastern Idaho and the Columbia River Basin. That event repeated dozens of times as the ice sheet grew, dammed river, then breached. As for the underground river idea, the groundwater is in basalt, a stack of lava flows. Groundwater moves slowly through the rock, fighting its way downslope (and there is not much of a gradient) through pore spaces, fractures, and gas bubbles. The groundwater is not connected in one through going river. In fact, the groundwater in the Snake River Plain aquifer emanates from hundreds (if not thousands) of places along the Snake River canyon between Twin Falls and Bliss. Places like Blue Lakes spring, Niagara Springs, Crystal Springs, Blueheart Springs, Thousand Springs, etc. There simple is not enough concentrated groundwater flow (volume), gradient, or space in the rock to form an underground river with the power to cause substantial erosion.

@@shawnwillsey So even if there were lava tubes or tunnel-like structures, the water wouldn't have much turbulence at all then. I see. Is it possible there was a minor ice sheet? Perhaps just from flood waters becoming frozen before they could dissipate? There are only so many things that would have caused those scrapes/drag marks on those rim rocks. Being that close to that front edge, I feel like they were caused as the basalt collapsed and a heavy layer of ice was dragged down and over the rim. Though I'm sure the rim has eroded farther since. I have not been over to Box Canyon yet, but (in the video) it looked like there may be a layer of sand or silt at the bottom? I'm wondering if the spring had created a pocket under the basalt. So fascinating. I could, and I do, spend hours scanning the topography of Idaho on Google Earth. My daughter and I love geology (she's 10). Whenever we go out on hikes or go anywhere outdoors, she comes back with pockets, or a backpack, full of rocks. Finding a rock in the washer machine is a common occurrence. If you're ever in the south/southwest ID and want a hiking partner, I'm your guy. I would love to pick your brain out there.

@@TheDude1776 There are lava tubes in basalt here and there, but they are not a dominant feature and not interconnected. Even if there were, the slope or gradient of the water would not be very steep. In other words, it would move slower than the water in the canyon below me. There is no evidence for glaciers in the Snake River Plain (like Box Canyon). The elevation and latitude are too low. Glaciers leave obvious marks of their passage, either by erosional landforms (U-shaped valleys, aretes, horns, cirques, etc.) or depositional landforms (moraines, till, erratics, etc.). There were alpine glaciers in the mountains to the north, the Pioneer and Boulder Mountains, but the ice was high up in each range and only advanced downslope to maybe 8,000 ft in elevation at most. The rocks at the rim of Box Canyon are a sure sign of sandblasting and scour by moving water. Glacial ice would have planed off the irregularities and produced large smooth rock surfaces (see my video on glacial polish in Redfish Canyon). I love that you can share your love of Earth and its processes with your daughter. Enjoy it while it lasts.

@@shawnwillsey That makes sense. Thank you for the history quickie. And thanks for taking the time to correct me. I need to do more study on the elevation changes through WA, ID, UT, WY and MT. Do you have any source recommendations for that? We will check out that video.

@@TheDude1776 Thanks for being open to new information. Enjoy the Redfish video (older camera than what I use now). Here is the link: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-HUWgx4WfLZw.html

No evidence of glaciers here or in Snake River Plain. Too far south and too low in elevation.

I doubt it. Cedar Draw Creek does not tap a very large drainage basin. Plus it is south of the Snake River so you would have to get floodwaters to go up to north rim of Snake River canyon. Keep thinking though.

When we get substantial rain (or irrigation runoff), water seeps over the lip and precipitates calcium carbonate on rock.

The Snake River Plain is not an uplifted region. It actually has been subsiding (or sinking) over the past few million years. Also, the ice sheet did not extend this far south and there is no glacial evidence in the Snake River Plain. The white deposit at the head of the canyon is caliche, a calcium deposit created when water does occasionally seep over rim.

Hi Sammi! Good to hear from you. No OR or comm ed classes scheduled right now but I could quickly throw one together if you or several folks are interested in something in particular. Let me know.

I am assuming you are referring to the current controversy over wind turbines. The answer is no. The sheer force and magnitude of the floods that produced Box Canyon were far more energetic than the proposed excavation activities to install turbines. Also, there are hundreds of existing large turbines in the Snake River Plain. To my knowledge, there were no negative effects produced by the installation of the turbines.

Yes, everything you see is basalt. The upper portion is about 395,000 years old. The basalt appears layered because each successive lava flow can stack on older ones.

@@shawnwillsey thankyou sir

Maybe one mile one way.

THANK YOU@@shawnwillsey

Not necessarily. Damming a river with a lava flow then a sudden breach of dam and release of water is a viable mechanism and has occurred in past at other sites.

@@shawnwillsey Ah, yes, of course! I forgot about that one. Still: If that was the case, where’s the lava-dam remnants and likely location of the huge lake? Also: Are the scouring of the rocks you showed more compatible with glacier or rushing water, please?

@@Hallands. Good question. No obvious evidence of the source of the water. For now, all we have is clear evidence of aggressive fluvial erosion and the cosmogenic ages of scoured surfaces. The mystery remains for now but it will be figured out at some point. This area is too low in elevation for glaciers and there is no evidence of glaciers anywhere in the Snake River Plain (but if there were it would have been awesome: lava vs ice!). Also, glacial erosion at Box Canyon (or elsewhere) would create large flat surfaces with scouring rather than irregular surfaces.

@@shawnwillsey Puzzling! Eroding waterfall work backwards, right? So the length of the canyon must give a fair estimate of when the cascade gained enough power to erode itself backwards to present day position. This gives the ambient climax, I would think. If it’s also possible to estimate when the water supply became insufficient to maintain the erosion, this gives the total epoch during which the water supply must’ve been plentiful. Is the area above the canyon shaped like a large funnel?

No, the Missoula floods are too far away and separated by several drainage basins from this area. You would have to get Missoula flood waters over several large mountain passes to get it into southern Idaho. The Missoula floods took the path of least resistance and followed lower elevation topography across northern Idaho and into eastern Washington and the Columbia River basin.

@@shawnwillsey - I see. Not familiar with the lie of the land.

@@jerometaperman7102 No worries. Both floods are so impressive. The Missoula floods were actually dozens of floods caused by the ice sheet advancing, damming the Clark Fork river, breaching to generate the flood, then the ice sheet creeping back to dam the river again, etc.

@@shawnwillsey - Yes, I knew that about the Missoula floods. I kind of wondered if some of it could have gone elsewhere. I visited Palouse Falls State Park in eastern Washington last year. Very impressive and pretty.

I address this in the video. Possibly but the ages do not correlate.

Maybe, but the dates don't match as I point out. And it would necessitate the Bonneville flood leaving the wide Snake River canyon (which apparently contained all the water) near Buhl and moving floodwaters overland which would have stripped away topsoil and scoured underlying rock (area does not show this). Also, why would the overland flood be focused in this very narrow channel? Lots of interesting questions for sure.

Same process, different flood.