Jesse, great show I appreciate your bringing up the “greater works” thing. First of all, we gotta know what greater Works does not mean. It does not mean that we will be able to mimic or do greater miracles than Christ. If that were the case, no one in human history has been able to fulfill that scripture. For no one in human history has been able to do even one greater works than Jesus Christ. Nor has anyone been able to do more works than Jesus Christ. There are some 40+ recorded miracles of Jesus no one in their lifetime has done so many miracles not even the apostles themselves. So Jesus cannot mean greater miracles will we do. Secondly, that promise is to every believer. Look at the passage. ““Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father.” John 14:12 ESV So by that standard, if Jesus means that every single believer in Jesus Christ will do greater works than he did, his own words have never been fulfilled. Jesus must be referring to some other work besides miracles. Here I took a stab at it on a video a couple years ago. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xTRGLLhDhfg.html
He is talking about miracles. This is clear from referencing the way Jesus uses this word throug the book of John. John 7:21 Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. 22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23 If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man’s whole body well? 24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. John 14:11- 14 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves. 12 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in me, the works that I am doing he will do also, and he will do greater works[f] than these because I am going to the Father. 13 And whatever[g] you ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it It could mean that he was saying numerically his disciples would do greater works, rather than qualitatively. It is also right next to one of those hard unqualified statements about "whatever you ask in my name..." James qualifies this with "You dont have what you ask because you ask amiss... etc." So maybe we're arent getting the full picture right here, but he is pretty clearly referencing miracles that testify about him given the context.
@@nbrooks1416 impossible because Jesus says two things every believer and will do greater works. Name me one person who has performed 40+ miracles that are greater than the miracles of Jesus Christ? Not one in human history. So Jesus words have not been fulfilled if he means you will as a believer in Jesus Christ to greater miracles. I’ve been a believer for nearly 40 years and I couldn’t name you one miracle that I have performed, but I do the words of Christ by preaching his gospel and being a continuation of his gospel of the Resurrection. Jesus never preached his own gospel after his resurrection we get to preach the gospel of the resurrection that’s the greater work. also, John certainly uses another word for miracles in John 20:31 ἐνώπιον: enópios (Strongs word 1799) and then that verse John says that these were not the only miracles that Jesus did there were more that were not recorded, but these are written so you may know that Jesus is the son of God. His miracles show and display his divinity, and he performed his miracles in and through his divinity like in John, 9 for the blind man wanted to worship Jesus for healing him only God can be worshiped, and Jesus said, “so that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins get up, take your bed and walk.“ So he healed the paralytic and the blind man from or through his divinity. The word that John uses for works in John 14:12 is ἔργον, ου, τό: ergon (Strongs 2041) which means toil or labor, task or employment, work so John certainly does use a different word for miracle in other places
As a quick historical example see these quotes by St. Augustine in City of God. He details some specific miracles in the same section and they are pretty incredible, including a few people being raised from the dead. “Actually, if I kept merely to miracles of healing and omitted all others, and if I told only those wrought by this one martyr, the glorious St. Stephen, and if I limited myself to those that happened here at Hippo and Calama, I should have to fill several volumes and, even then, I could do no more than tell those cases that have been officially recorded and attested for public reading in our churches.” “This recording and attesting, in fact, is what I took care to have done, once I realized how many miracles were occurring in our own day and which were so like the miracles of old and also how wrong it would be to allow the memory of these marvels of divine power to perish from among our people. It is only two years ago that the keeping of records was begun here in Hippo, and already, at this writing, we have nearly seventy attested miracles. I know with certain knowledge of many others which have not, so far, been officially recorded. And, of course, at Calama, where the recording began much earlier and where miracles are more frequent, the number of attested cases is incomparably greater. (24:445-446).” There have been plenty of people who have been used in healing/miracles far more than 40 times on same level as the biblical miracles over the course of their lives. It is still Jesus doing his ministry and attesting to himself so it isnt in competition with Christ's ministry - it is Christ continuing his ministry through his church
@@nbrooks1416 Well said. I think sometimes people forget that Jesus only ministered for about 3 years. There are people who have spent decades in the ministry. If one could accept that miracles were possible, it would be logical to assume that they could do more miracles than Jesus performed, and potentially some that were greater. The thing is, Jesus wasn't a megalomaniac, and he's not intimidated by his followers' success. If it's empowered by the Spirit, as you say, then it's a continuation and an expansion of his ministry. Jesus couldn't walk the whole earth and interact with everyone in one human lifetime, but with his Spirit in us, his ministry spans time and distance in a way that was practically impossible during his lifetime.
I love how you took this kinda bad experience and you didn’t Just leave the faith like a lot of people that get hurt by the church, but you so sought God and his word to help you get past that experience. Spiritual maturity on point!
Well I actually did for a while. I was an atheist for about a year, then agnostic for a bit, and creeped back in. But thank you 🙏🏼 I appreciate it just wanted to give you the full scope
That's my biggest fear for my family. They are deep into bethen in austin. I worry that if I can somehow coax them out of it, they may be so devastated, that they may lose their faith in the process. I know they love God, so that would be a tragedy. But I also worry that they will eventually end up fully embracing the new age as their desire for signs and wonders override their desire to know the true Jesus.
@@thewestwoodhomethat’s what happened to me! I was raised in the church and when I went to college for a year and then spent another 2 years building my testimony I had decided I was atheist, then agnostic, then I sorta just crept back into the faith. It hasn’t been easy, I battle skepticism daily, but it’s his grace and love that keeps me here. This was due in part to a beautiful woman who’s been very patient and loving, but I will say, learning of God’s TRUTH is the best gift. More than a feeling. It’s ingrained.
The three biggest challenges for me coming out of NAR: 1- Arminian mindset ie. potential to lose salvation 2- Arminian mindset ie. Believing it is on me to bring salvation to the lost. 3- The temptation to trust in works over grace. I received so much help from books and online discernment ministries. Still…2 years out and still these mindsets plague me.
Hey there, don't worry about moving slow. It's the details that matter, and you can't share details when you're moving fast. I am a charismatic pastor, have been for 14 years (24 years of ministry total) and I have been raising the alarm about Bethel for a few years now on my own channel, and from the pulpit. Let's just say that it has not been received well by my ministry peers, but slowly over time they have begun to see the problem. When people like yourself come forward and share the inside perspective, it is incredibly helpful to those of us who will never have the perspective that you have. I greatly appreciate that you are taking the time to walk through this slowly. There are a lot of short 'I left Bethel because" videos, but what you are doing is much more helpful and I believe it will yield much more fruit. I know what you are doing is difficult, but what you are doing is needed in these days. Blessings to you and your family as you walk this path.
This moderate, classical charismatic thanks you for calling out the hypercharismatic mess pastor! ..decades ago our Canadian Pentecostal churches saw Toronto blessing etc as fringe and called them out, and gatekeepers kept all that out, never imagining that their warped theology would weave into so many camps today.but with the new generation young, taking in a little new kind of worship music here, a little book read there, a little conference attended here, a course there and before you know it, so many once solid churches now embracing another gospel.. Keep 🚩🚨🆘
Thanks for adding your voice to the mix and standing strong against false doctrine. Alisa Childers and Natasha Craine just did a short podcast on why it's okay for Christians to actually call out false pastors and teaching. It was quite good.
Thank you for sharing your insights, Jesse. I was part of a charismatic church many years ago, beginning as a 19yo new Christian. That church wasn't as extreme as Bethel but I can relate to many of your experiences. I'm thankful for the Lord's faithfulness in leading me out and patiently teaching me discernment and sound biblical theology. Every believer needs to be a Berean and be consistently studying the Word, so that we can be grounded in Truth and able to recognize the false teachings insidiously infiltrating the Church.
Ive been out of this now for 15 years after beginning in the Vineyard movement with Wimber, JPJ, Graham, Goll, etc and ending up in Streams that taught all this gnostic mysticism. I am only now starting to get my feet under me as I comprehend Reformed Theology, election, and the very soundness of proper exegesis. God knows how to hold your faith through those scattered years - He is able to keep that which we have entrusted to him for that day. These pastors and teachers have brought me back to my heritage of faith in God...Chris Roseborough ( Fighting for the Faith), RC Sproul/Sinclair Ferguson/Steve Lawson( Legonier Ministries) Jeff Durbin & James White ( Apologia Studios), and others. Thanks Jesse, you have been a much needed and current help to the body of Christ!👍
@@thewestwoodhome guys from one hypercharismatic extreme to another in Calvinism reformed? 🚨 Find the middle ground guys,..,deflecting from bethel Lindsay Davis has finally done just that..curious if anyone in these Lutheran , calvinist groups will care interview her now ! Search out Lutheran religion Chris , bezel, long for truth, Steven koZar are part of..closer to Catholicism than anything.. Revealing Truth RU-vid and word of truth RU-vid both are bible believing continuationists who have recently lovingly called out these brothers in the Lutheran camp..check all that out.. Also soteriology 101 is great site refuting Calvinism., Just careful if some camp is tryin to grab in into their fold,,be free and read bible and pray..The Holy Spirit will guide your steps… just be careful to not let anyone in these RU-vids pull u in their camp and USE you to help pull in others into their camp.. At very least study them out first ..cuz I see some 🚩
Reformed theology doesn't have to include election. To my understanding. Election is a calvinist belief, which I don't hold to. Jesus came to die for ALL, not some selected few. Have you looked into Calvinism?
I'd consider myself a cautious charismatic, but I totally agree with what you're saying. It's NOT OK to speak in the name of God when God hasn't spoken.
Thanks for this all the way from South Africa! I have been going through this myself for the last 4 years and just knowing that I'm not alone in feeling and seeing this is very encouraging. Relearning you theology is not easy ....... Thanks again.
Hi! I somehow stumbled upon your Breaking Bethel series, I think you just popped up in my RU-vid recommendations. I am a worship leader at my church, and I have done a lot of research into Bethel and Hillsong as I take my responsibility to be very choosey about song selection very seriously. So I am no stranger to Bethel/Hillsong content. I am very much appreciating your kind and calm demeanor as you talk about these very real issues. Your heart to spread awareness and truth about these false teachings, but to do so in a manner that honors Jesus is very evident. I've forwarded your playlist to my dad, who is to be the pastor of my church. He also has done copious research in this arena, and I know he will also very much appreciate your approach in this series.
Wow that’s some high praise. Thank you so much. Also thank you for taking you job so seriously. I was a worship leader/pastor got almost 15 years. Pray you find it helpful and feel frrr to email me with with bay questions
That's right! The nature of prophecy stays consistent across both testaments, the punishment may change (i.e. death/casting from the camp/ex-communication) but the when God speaks, God speaks. No room for missing it!
““Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” Matthew 7:21-23
So thankful for your ministry. So much I felt uneasy about but couldn't articulate. Am also in a process of relearning my theology. Hard and often lonely journey.
Hey brother just found your channel today. What a refreshing hope for those who have been stuck in false doctrines. I believe you will be used to help so many. I appreciate your heart and humility in expressing your journey. And you are a homesteader! Awesome. Will be praying for you brother. I have tried for years to show these falsehoods and have only been kicked at and rejected. But you having lived through it will accomplish much. Take care.
Proud of you coming out of that mess...I know it is difficult !! Great job brother!! Appreciate ya speaking out!!! 1 Timothy 4:1...Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons
Hi Jesse I just want to tell you what a great job as always thank you for sharing your journey while you’re in the journey, it is important to retrain your mind renew your mind in the word of God and let false teachings fade away and purposely take them out of our mind and heart. It’s not an easy journey I’ve been on it for about 4to 5 years I’m praying for you and your family and thanking God for you and your family. You are definitely on the right path and you have awesome teachers around you and behind you. Chris Roseborough, Steve Kosar and long for truth. Solid biblical teachers
Jessie thank you for your boldness . I shared this in hopes that some family and friends at new hope church in Abilene , Texas would see it , they had a guy named John Bates that had the oeople practice prophecying over each other.
thank you for your video Jesse! i currently go to a home group church where the pastor is teaching out of this book… i knew there was a potential problem when i saw who the author was but when i actually studied it OH BOY! i found the same thing you found in the introduction: scriptures completely taken out of context. when i told my pastor about my concerns and the issues with the book, he said that there was a school of prophets and became defensive. i’m so glad that you made this video talking about it so others can see how they’re being deceived. please pray for my church that they would see the truth.
I don’t have any personal experience with Bethel or similar groups, but I’m really finding this interesting, understanding how they think, how they use scripture, etc. it’s always good to be reminded to keep our eyes on Jesus and what He did, not to be distracted by sparkly things.
Might I suggest listening to both sides, and not just the critics? Of course, you may find yourself lining up with Jesse's position in the end, but there are reasons why people believe this stuff.
@@johnstinson8526 I’ve heard a fair amount of what Bill Johnson says, but if you have a source defending Bethel’s teaching at that facility, I’m willing to read/watch it.
@@salgar1234 Absolutely. If Bethel was really a cult, as Jesse is trying to demonstrate in these videos, it would be pretty easy to demonstrate. Last night at the conference put on by Bethel we sang this song: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IC5g-nZRwBU.html I posted the link below if you want to listen to the full worship set. The point I'm making is these aren't the words of people denying Jesus as savior. If you want to see what Randy spoke about, here's the link to last night's session: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-t_YvOn_LjGc.html (he starts at the 1:33:00 mark). He actually addresses some of what Jesse shares about on this channel. Again, you may not agree with his teaching, maybe what Jesse talks about lines up with your theology better, but it's not for a lack of biblical support. My major issue with this channel isn't that Jesse has a different opinion, it's his condemnation of believers who have a different theology to his. We're not talking about denying Jesus, we're talking about different perspectives on the gifts, on prophecy, and on interpretations of passages in the Bible. Jesse is an Anabaptist Mennonite (according to his own comment), a denomination that is well known for having been persecuted heavily in the past. Many members of his denomination were tortured, imprisoned and martyred over a doctrinal rejection of infant baptism (and a few other ideas). At one time, his denomination was considered a heretical sect with ideas that were dangerous to the faith. It's ironic that he would join in the condemnation of his brothers and sisters over doctrinal differences. Just a few hundred years ago, instead of making RU-vid rants, believers burned each other to death over things like this.
I would love to hear a full testimony from you showing your beginning through to today. That would be great. Especially since you hint to a time when you walked away, possibly because of the heresy taught through Bethel. More clarity on that would be great.
I am so thankful you are doing these videos. We had been somewhat affiliated with Bethel church years ago through a church in San Diego. My kids had been to Bethel a few times. It is really hard to come out of Word of Faith, i.e., New age movement. Thanks Again for your Enlightenment on this Subject Whirhin Bethel Church.
Thank you for this work and it's okay that you don't upload often we are glad to wait. At one point we emailed about doing a podcast together and then your health issues arose. Would still love to have you one.
Excellent! Well spoken brother. I grew up in these types of churches. I look back in shock that I could have ever believed the things I believed. It's amazing what happens when you just read scripture. Love these videos! Keep up the great work.
This is so helpful. I look forward to the reworking theology. Theology can also be seriously warped coming from a ‘regular’ false church, which is my experience in New Zealand. I call the 99% (my guess), of churches in NZ as ‘false church light’. The biblical truth is twisted, tongues, tithing, Holy Spirit spasms and shaking, a ‘word’ from the lord, claiming your healing, decreeing and declaring, binding and loosing, putting yourself into scripture, taking scripture of context, etc. All these things I thought WAS truth. But it was all couched in a low key way. I am so thankful to God for showing me the truth which began with a Strange fire conference Q&A panel session. AMAZING! AMAZING GRACE 🙏
Watching your videos and reading the comments has opened my eyes to a huge pastoral issue with this movement. From the outside, you see people who love talking about revival and God's power, and i think to myself "Good. I disagree with some of what they say but I appreciate that someone is emphasising this side of things." Reading comments from people coming out of it though, makes me kind of wonder how they are pastorally dealing with the fallout of a ton of people feeling like they need to constantly perform and aquire spiritual power. I think I have grossly underappreciated the negative effect this can have on real people. Kind of heartbreaking reading some of this stuff.
When I returned to Bethel healing rooms one of the leaders asked me to prophesy over someone I was going to pray for healing. At first I was reluctant because their rules there were not to give specific Direction telling people what to do. The leader seemed frustrated and she told me to just guess and say something. That would mean I would be speaking out of my own spirit which to me is blasphemy, assigning my own thoughts as though they were God's thoughts. You see when you know the difference and have actually received prophecy from God there is no doubt. Prophecy is a Grace which cannot be demanded as an act of performance by anyone and if you do you likely will not like the word that comes from God. Now there is much more to that particular story which I could share someday, but I just wanted to share that it is a eternal mortal sin( second death), if you speak of your own mind not allowing the Holy Spirit to speak for you. If you hear God then speak, if not keep your mouth shut. I have only received a few directly words of knowledge etc., Not one fell to the ground. I am not bragging on me, I am bragging on God. God bless you and your family, especially you for bringing the truth forward. Vary good work the gospel is first, the gifts are Grace's for ministry.
I by no means would put your position on “practicing” prophecy as radical. Love the analogy to adultery. God doesn’t get things wrong. Putting your will out there, seeing if you get it right and if so claiming it as His is not okay ever.
The verse Matt 7:22-23 came to mind during this video. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ Miracles are great and wonderful signs of God’s love and sovereignty, but they become meaningless if they do not lead us to the most important thing, which is to know and to love the Lord Jesus above everything else. I would rather live in misery and pain, but have Christ than to be miraculously healed and not know Him.
I watched your interview with Chris on Fighting for the Faith and was excited to see you do this series! Although I personally have never been enslaved to that line of thinking or theology I know people who are... And it hurts to see them chase after something they will never catch. Trying to reason with them through the Scripture is all most impossible. I pray this series reaches all those entangled in that belief system and helps to open their eyes and heart to the real Truth of Scripture! Keep on digging and keep on sharing and may God use this to reach those in need!
Thanks Jesse once again very good video! blessings from U.K. just one thing - some words popped up occasionally when you were speaking but didn’t stay up long enough for me to read them ☺️
Hey I've been following you're journey for a bit and can relate very much to your experience in the charismatic church. Still Wrestling with a lot of presuppositions in the search of "the true church/gospel) I wanted to share this with you and I hope that it'll bless you in the same way it blessed me. It's only 3 minutes long but i think you would appreciate it. It sort of comes natural as children of the west to resort to protestantism or even catholicism but what I've noticed about myself and most people I've come across is that with regards to orthodoxy we truely had no knowledge about it. In your quest for the true faith I would lay on your heart to look into church history and and how these major three denomination came to be kn the first place. I thought to share this with you since the orthodox church is truely a blind spot for most westerners and because I was moved by your story. Wish someone would've share this with me when I came out of the charismatic movement. All the best on your journey and God bless ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZS_TANj26sI.html
Hey man, loving your stuff. It was recommended by RU-vid as I’d watched the Mike Winger video you reacted to in this series… love your manner and heart for the Lord. God bless you, your family and ministry ❤
Hey Jesse, as you were reading from Vallotton's book, you read in the Introduction that he cited 1 Kings 20:35, which described a company of men who were called the sons of the prophets. 1 Kings 20:35 says, "And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said to his fellow at the command of the LORD, “Strike me, please.” But the man refused to strike him." There's nothing in the surrounding text that comes close to what Vallotton is quoted as saying.
This was great! Thank you! Did I miss the link to the video you mentioned Chris Roseborogh did on taking the Lord’s name in vain? I’d really be interested to listen.
Thank you once again, Jesse. I don’t know how I didn’t see this until today but I’m so thankful to come across. God bless your family and ministry. 🙏❤️🙏
Hi Jesse, Thanks for sharing about your experience with prophecy. I fall more in line with the view that Old Testament prophecy and New Testament prophecy have different purposes or functions. I admit this is something I need and want to study more about. I can see how a book like this takes things too far in dismissing error, placing an unbearable burden on Christians to operate in signs and wonders, using scripture out of context, etc. Those things bother me too. For a moment I would like to look at the other side of the coin. Does New Testament prophecy exist? What is its purpose? Is error possible and should their be an element of grace for it? In a nutshell, I have come to understand that 1) New Testament prophecies/prophets exist (Eph. 4:11, 1 Cor. 12:7-11, Acts 15:32). 2) All believers now have access to a personal relationship with Jesus and he wants to speak to us (Eph. 2:18, Heb. 4:15-16, 1 Cor. 2:12, John 14:26). A prophecy can often be a confirmation of something he has already spoken to you in prayer (Acts 21:10-13). If you receive a prophecy you haven't yet received in prayer it is important to test it (1 Cor. 14:29, 1 Thess. 5:20-22). But ultimately what I find is the purpose of new testament prophecy is to encourage (1 Cor. 14:3), build up and unify the church (Eph. 4:12-13). No gifting is above another, no one person is given all revelation (like in OT Israel) for a local church. So to work together in sharing and testing prophecies is important (1 Cor. 14:29-33, Acts 13:1). 3) Error is possible. It is important not to prophesy specific instruction over people (Go marry this person, God buy this house, Go move to this country, etc.), although specific instruction may have its place between believers - it is not wise to incorporate this into a prophetic message. From my experience, when I speak prophetically (and I am learning a lot about this) - first of all I recognize it is a blessing to be able to be a mouth piece of God and that he has given me a message to proclaim. Second, I aim to offer my words humbly with grace and love for the purpose of encouraging redemption without neglecting the reality of the messiness of sin. This shouldn't be flattery time (an abuse we have probably both witnessed) but we have to be careful we also don't remove love and humility and offer 'the cold hard truth' without giving the hope of redemption. Would be interested in your thoughts. I know this is a lot would love to dig into the subject more.
Thank you for your videos thus far! My only complaint is that they're too short. Maybe it's just me, but I love the 1 hour vids. But I also understand you may not have the time to do that. Keep truckin!
The problem in many prophetic circles is that the weighing is not being done. If you knowingly prophesy a lie to someone, that is sin, but if you are honest, even if it is wrong, that is not sin, that is a mistake, and if you are weighing it then the mistake is dealt with. Scripture itself is prophecy. Preachers get up every Sunday and preach prophecy and interpretations that are not always correct. They improve in their hearing and interpretation through practice. "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." - 1 Cor 14:29
I don't like the false, but that doesn't shake my faith. I didn't turn to Christ because of all these other things so many people cite as the reasons why they're no longer Christians; I turned to Christ because I was a sinner that needed a Savior, and though I'm markedly different because of Christ, my need for the Savior has not changed.
I'm so grateful for your courage and for sharing your story. One side comment...I ran the sound board for my church for over a decade...I'm watching your video on my laptop with the laptop and your video volume turned up to full blast to hear you within an average range. I know there is a way to increase your volume availability...if I were running your board, I'd increase the gain. It would help those of us on laptops a bunch if you could... thanks! Val
@@thewestwoodhome It was clipping on your end?! Well, shoot. Maybe my laptop speaker is just junk. I can try earphones. Or maybe he just needs to be closer to the mike... lol. :)
James Goll reminds me of Helena Blavatsky. These books would be quite at home in Theosophy. I messed around in the New Age and it’s bad news. We have to pray for the poor people deceived by this.
I would like to talk with you. As someone who still goes to Open Heavens conferences but have walked away from their teaching and begun to dive into the Word, I have found myself deeply grieved and relearning because as you just demonstrated, what the scriptures actually mean when applied correctky have nothing to do with what Kris or Bill have applied it or espoused that it does. After doing most of 1st year and being removed, I have wrestled a ton with wanting to honor, but finding myself filled with questions because the more i read the Word, the more their teachings just don't add up. Anyway, if you've got the time, I would enjoy a chat.
Also, fun fact. My in-laws used to be heavily involved in this world about 20 years ago. They remember fellowshipping with many of the prominent prophetic leaders today and were very good friends with James Goll at the time. They left the prophetic movement about 15 years ago, pretty disillusioned- went through some very hard years of questioning and many trials, now are very solid, praise the Lord. My FIL was telling me recently that he caught up with James Goll a couple of years ago and that the man has gone off the rails 😢 He also shared that many of the families they fellowshipped with at the time have walked away from any profession of faith altogether, but one family he said was still serving on their local prophetic network board had admitted to atheism, but needed the income it provided so he is still serving. Reminded me of some of what you shared.
Your adultery analogy was really good. In 1 Corinthians 12 Paul talks about how spiritual gifts are given. Nowhere does it state that we can learn given gifts.
If this is true then No one should go to seminary to learn how to preach/teach or have any sort of learning curve with the function of that gift. The spirit will just sovereignly give it in its fully mature form
@@Philagape Teaching is a spiritual gift given by the Spirit. There is no indication in 1 Cor 12 that it is more "human" than the gift of prophecy. All gifts are Spirit empowered and also come through our humanity and need maturing. Every prophet in scripture went through a maturing process, just like every teacher, every apostle, etc.
I’m just curious…In all sincerity what do you do with 1 Corinthians 14:1-6 where Paul’s calls the church of Corinth to prophecy. Or 1 Corinthians 14:29-32 speaking of having prophets judge the words of other prophets. Why would Paul say that the words of the prophets would need to be judged unless they got it wrong sometimes? And why would he say you all can prophesy one by one, that all may be encouraged? Genuinely I’m not trying to throw shade I just believe that anything that can’t stand against challenge doesn’t not deserve to be believed. This series is challenging, and I don’t see many counter points in the comments. Honestly I commend you for doing what you are doing and the journey you’re in. Do you believe that we shouldn’t prophecy at all? Or that we shouldn’t pray for healing? Don’t get me wrong I have my own issues with bethels theology, I just wonder what your belief on the topics are, and where your theological backing is for believing it.
Listening to this raises a question. How does Bethel view the early Church, especially 1st thru 3rd century. Based on what I know they spent their time delving in the scripture. Their 'new' definition of a prophecy is also used by various cults to get around known false prophetic statements.
@@thewestwoodhome probably not unexpected. To me their stance implies that all Christians before them had got it wrong. Meaning they are the chosen ones.
Thank you for investing time into these videos! Thank you also for bringing truth and clarity to the the Body of Christ and exposing paths of deception. Praying protection and strength over you and your family!
When the renewal broke out in Toronto in 95 immediately hit our little congregation and then since then the church has been nuked with this insanity at a hyper pace.
Have you read Wayne Grudem's book on prophecy, DA Carson's book on 1 Corinthians 12-14, or anything by Sam Storms on prophecy? I don't agree with Bethels views on prophecy but your falling into the opposite ditch here brother. Please tell me you have read some solid stuff on prophecy??
See on this platform, an Interview with Brooke Ligertwood and Jenn Johnson, Brooke said that she notes all the women who are devout, faithful, strong, talented, hard-working and sacrificial in the choir - who come to her saying that they feel overlooked after decades of serving - (overlooked for superstardom and platform which this church makes everything), she spiritually abuses them by telling them it’s because “God is doing the choosing” and not the “humans” (leaders) and you can’t hold the humans responsible. JJ was agreeing God tells her to take off people on the worship team! Brooke stated that it’s based on “their spirit” - I.e. who has a superior “spirit”. Forgetting we are all indwelt with the Holy Ghost. Brooke said to pray against cynicism of your leaders because that’s really “cynicism against God”. Then JJ and Brooke led the audience in prayer against cynicism (discernment) towards leadership. Minute 25 of that video. This is spiritual abuse With Rich Wilkerson, Brooke stated that you can practice hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit by asking random questions about how long to brew ones tea bag for - see minute 28 of Rich Wilkerson Jr interviews Brooke Ligertwood. Brooke’s modus operandi is to start interviews by publicly praising and admiring and talking up the leader interviewing her, thus lulling the audience into acceptance and ensuring her popularity and position with these leadership
Let me help 😜 its like this: If I want to be a preacher of math, I have to be loyal to what it is written in math books right? We find in mathbooks how to add, subtract, divide, multiply. But what happens if someone says: In this book it teaches you how to cook!.... of course we would be like are you dumb? Mathbooks teach about math and thats it. It is the same principle with the bible, if someone claims to be a preacher, he needs to be loyal to what it is written, but if a preacher "adds or substracts" from the bible, litteraly run away from those churches. God bless and keep up!! :D
The problem with the prophecy thing and learning to prophesy… trying to hear from the Lord to prophesy… It becomes striving and it becomes a precursor to a performance-based mindset. Like why not just seek the Lord and pray, and if He gives you an encouraging word or something for someone, then ok. But trying to prophesy and seek the Lord for someone-what if they are super sensitive and going through a hard time, and a wrong “prophetic word” given in the name of Jesus brings confusion and can send a person into a whole world of mess.
They have no fear of the Lord. Plain and simple. The god they worship has one attribute: love. And it’s not even agape love they believe in, it’s Eros love. He looooooovvvveeees them. We forget how blessed we are by the mercy of God every time we sin and He doesn’t immediately kill us. It was believers whom God killed in 1 Cor. 11 for their irreverence in taking the Lords supper.
Hi, I'm very curious could you tell us or give us an overview of how the intercession team..I don't know they seem to like to call things ministries..How the "intercession" for the church and for the school is organized, spiritual foundations on which they are built upon if you can give us a look inside that?
Loving your videos and i share the same general attitude toward the flippancy with which prophecy is treated in this movement. At the same time, if we applied the same standard of missing it once and you are a false prophet to the gift of teaching/preaching, no one would qualify as an authentic teacher or have the opportunity to learn. Any standard that is placed on the supposedly more “miraculous gifts” should be placed across the board on all gifts/ministries.
@@titahamme8322 Yes, it is specific about Prophecy as well as false teaching/preaching. I would would just ask that we take the whole of what scripture says rather than isolating Deuteronomy 18:22 and using it to contradict clear NT teaching in 1 Cor 12-14 and other places. There is a really good article by Craig Keener (one of the most respected NT scholars alive) called "One-Strike-and-Youre-out on the gift of prophecy?" I tried to link it, but it wont let me. If you are interested, it is easy to find if you google his name and Deut 18:22. Basically there is reason to believe that this "one mistake and you are out rule" for someone who is sincere but mistaken is not really what is in view. Add this to clear NT teaching on the subject and you have a gift that is fallible but valuable for building up the body if used humbly and responsibly, just like teaching and preaching. All of that said, I definitely recognize the need for massive correction regarding the use of prophecy in the hyper charismatic movement.
'But he answered them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah."' Matthew 12:39
That’s a very magnified portion of a series of verses that are specifically about the Pharisees. They asked Jesus for a sign (after he had already done many signs and wonders and healings). They were essentially mocking him. And then he said that. And funny enough, if you continue reading, he does tel them they will be given one more sign (his death, burial and resurrection). With that said, I’m very skeptical of bethel, which is what brought me to this video, but this verse is not a good one to apply. The Bible clearly says we will see true signs and wonders in the last days and that there will also be false teachers and signs and wonders done by people that he will say he never knew.
Your ability and maturity to relay this information and your experience in a loving manner causes folks to listen and give it attention, even if they struggle with it. "Salty" words if you will. The attention you are getting though shows that people need to hear this as it is an issue in the church. The reach of their teachings is wider than what many people realize. I live in a smalltown in Michigan, pastor a small church, and have had many chats with people regarding conflict and issues that have stemmed from them following the teachings of a church like Bethel. I made a small video regarding Bethel/Kenneth Copeland recently, loving pushing back on the guys at Remnant Radio - so would love your take.
Hey brother if you’re not familiar I’d like to turn you onto Spencer Smith’s channel. But namely I want to introduce you to the first part of his three movie series called “3rd Adam 1”. Spencer Smith came recommended to me through Justin Peters. I think you stand to get a lot out of him and I find that in this movie he deals with the NAR and Bethel. This movie has a lot of depth and it moves kind of fast too. If you haven’t already seen it, you’ve picked your own pocket. I hope you give it a chance to view it. He also made a part two and he’s about to release a part three… Just saying. I love the content you’re releasing on this channel. I’m sharing it and I’m hoping that it blesses you in a major way. I’m also continuing to pray for you and your family, love you brother. …and I love the references to prophecy bingo!!! Good on you. Keep pointing people in the right direction! As always, I look forward to your content. Your channel is one of the most exciting ones… And I haven’t really pinpointed as to why that is for me…? Nonetheless, God’s doing something great with this channel of yours. So keep it up! Praise God for all of this. Grace to you and peace in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
The Ten Commandments HAVE changed under the New Covenant: believers don't have to observe the Sabbath. If New Covenant prophets have to be infallible then why does Paul say, "Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge/weigh/evaluate" (1 Cor14:29)?
I’m super curious about this because I want to know how close Bethel’s practices are to the mediumship and witchcraft I used to practice before God delivered me from literal demons. This is not stuff anyone should play with.
I’m just gonna say it. You look like an absolute hipster and the smoothie part made me crack up! If you ever want to do millennial Christian satire, you’ve got the look. Anyway, keep up the awesome work!
The sad thing is when abused people exit the charismatic NAR movement and adopt secessionism. It’s two extremes. My hope is you don’t shun prophecy and the gifts because of your experience. These are true - You were abused. The gifts are not dead. Also greater deeds don’t have to mean to do more than Christ’s sacrifice. That’s a certain reach that quenches a secessionists need not to fail. Listen, if teachers don’t get it right all the time, and if they have to learn and make mistakes… Why wouldn’t you hold the same standard for other gifts? There are schools to help teach, there are techniques that are to aid and expand your teaching gift. Our Christian culture seems to believe that it’s OK to leave teaching in the category of acceptable failures and then ignore the other gifts altogether. Paul encourages us in the gifts. And except for teaching in James 3, we are admonished to receive them and use them for the benefit of all. James encourages us to be extremely strict with what we say if we are a teacher. He explains that it’s better that not everyone be a teacher because of the degree of strictness a teacher is judged by. I was not with Bethel as long as you and I did not go to BSSM. I do have questionable experiences from my days going to Simpson College and spending my Sunday’s at Bethel. I do understand some of your experience. I also do have at least one friend who went through BSSM who seems to not be leading a godly life now. Bethel is extreme. I’m very sorry that you’ve had your experience, but I’m also grateful that you’ve chosen to share your testimony and give listeners an inside look to your own experience .
Great episodes regarding prophecy from Remnant Radio who are Charismatic pastors. Many people leaving hyper Charismatic churches become cessationists but that doesn't have to be the case. There are still good teachers/pastors/leaders out there who speak out against the errors but are very balanced and teach the gospel.
Jesse, I appreciate your work. Sometimes it sounds like you are all over the place, so you need more structure . Explain what they do and beleive, then an input why it's wrong. God bless!
So just something on my heart. I was taught taking the Lord’s name in vain was using it when swearing etc. but…..the amount of people, Christians alike, that I hear say “ oh my God “ is gut wrenching. Is that not just casually throwing Gods name around therefore using it in vain??
I'm obsessed with this. Would love to see excerpts of the text you are reading and outside references for your assertions as to why you believe the text is incorrect. (Bonus points for non-RU-vidrs or non-popular Reformed theologians like John Piper.) Do you have any theology credentials beyond BSSM? Obsessed. Thank you!
@@thewestwoodhome Nice! I just finished a MA at Fuller (surprisingly where Wagner and Wimber got started!!). Calvinism is a strong basis for Bethel and other Reformed/NAR theology so my suggestion is that if you want to move beyond Bethel it might be useful exploring non-Calvinist traditions (they exist!)
