Can nerfing a Low Tier Character be a good thing? 

No timestamps on this vid, its all one long train of thought. Basically a followup to the patch video as I couldnt go longer and limited with time on that one. Honda got the buffs as gone over in that vid, but also some big nerfs. However as is the point of the vid, are the nerfs actually a good thing? I got some clips and stats to show in the vid and despite the fact if you think about it critically for a second you know Honda is not a strong character, the things that are being nerfed still kinda... dominate? Nerfing the frustrating aspects while buffing his ability to play the actual game I think is very smart, and gives me hope for the overall direction Season 2 of SF6 will be going in. So give a watch and let me know what you think!

it is when i dont like the low tier

Man every day im just staring down those patch notes. Its gonna be so big. As shown in the vid I found another honda change I didn't even notice right away cause I wasn't even looking for it. The patch notes are probably gonna be GIGANTIC. So when the time comes don't worry I will have your back in breaking it all down but uh, pray for my sanity and sleep cause its probably gonna drain both

It doesn't matter how they buff or nerf, how the crowd perceives him, Honda is the champ for making a whole sumo restaurant for everyone to eat great food and see great fights. All that plot nonsense of dark organisations, evil powers, but Honda is out here living his best life, inviting his new pal Manon, catching up with the homie Zangief, sharing his passion with the world. Even Akuma gone be sat down and get some good eats. Be like Honda.

"Can nerfing a low tier character be a good thing?" Sub Zero: "Nah, Dawg."

Being around 1800MR with Honda, he is absolutely miserable at times. Neutral is painful most of the time. Against characters like chun li, gief, and ed its basically impossible their buttons will just straight up beat yours. I'm excited to be able to have at least passable neutral, but I hope its his gorilla pressure that gets buffed. How I play him is to force my way in and throw out a command grab here and there to remind you you can't block forever

Game balance has to take into account every level of competition, not just what characters can do at their full potential. That allows the game to be fun and interesting to play at all levels, not just the highest form of competition. You see this not taken into account a lot in team based games that chase esports money where the low level and even mid level player experience will be sacrificed to appease the top 0.01% of players. A lot of Overwatch's most controversial changes, Apex Legends not curbing its ridiculously high execution barrier, almost everything that happen to Halo post-Reach, [gestures wildly at League of Legends]... All negatively effecting the overall player experience to balance the highest form of competition. You even see this in some fighting games on the mechanics end. A lot of games will introduce more and more systems during its lifespan to keep high level play interesting... But not balance those out from a new player perspective by making the game overall more approachable, leading to the game just becoming more daunting for new players to get into. Like... I think the changes to Street Fighter V made it a better game over its lifetime, but its a lot harder to learn from scratch now than it was at launch. Meanwhile Granblue, despite selling itself on approachability, has introduced like 15 new mechanics into it that makes figuring out the game take a lot of work.

I think this video shows a clear distinction on a topic not often addressed. Most tier list discussions are done with the idea that both players are "of equal skill, and are highly skilled." When you focus discussions about balance to less than 1% of the player base, stuff like the problem of E. Honda gets missed. His general gameplan is completely brain-dead, but also strong enough that, as the numbers show, the vast majority of people can't deal with him. Games like this can't be balanced just around the top percentage of players. You have to consider everyone, or characters like E. Honda just get a pass by a portion of the community that get to brag about how their character is low tier, but they win all the time because they don't play against competition that can deal with the gameplan.

It reminds me of a quote I remember from a core-a video. The purpose of buffs and nerfs isnt to balance, but to make a game that's fun to play and watch. I think about it a lot and I think it applies to honda.

Man, I'm still shook about how smart this patch sounds. In the land of so many reactionary buffs and nerfs that only serve to be dialled down later, Capcom is looking wise. I think this one big patch per year, a few other small ones alongside it thing is actually super healthy for the game. I know that this affects you content creators differently, so it's fair to have a different vision of it and all - but as a player, it's really refreshing to have faith in them patch notes after playing games managed by Bandai (DBFZ, in my case) and Netherrealm

"You not liking him makes me like him more" Honda players 🤝 Dhalsim players Since all the way back in the SF2 days

That thumbnail will now be seared into my brain. With that out of the way, it feels like the patch is going to make 6 a whole new game

Love you rooflemonger, but regardless what everyone thinks. Its not season 2 until i see that dlc roster. Im super curious to see what will really change with added characters. Capcom trying to keep us in the dark lol i hate it. Just want some kind of clue capcom. Good work as always just me being anxious.

I’m ready to see what they do w my baby manon

"you not liking him makes me like him more, thats just the kind of guy i am" pretty much my reason to love zoners/poison characters

I'm kind of hoping they're balancing Honda, to be better at what I thought was going to be his playstyle, ie a character who excels at pushing the opponent to the corner and harassing them, minus gimmicky tactics

If the low tier has one or two busted things that carry them throughout the ranks until a certain point, then that's still a problem. Those tools should get nerfed, while the tools that make them unviable should be addressed instead.

Seen comments by prominent people in the fgc and sentiment in general stating tier lists don't matter in the lower tiers. Now this idea is half correct, and in a way that's more important it's monstrously false. The tier list exists due to matchups, measured and perceived at an equal skill level. Yes, the tier list most follow is a high skill tier list - however a tier list exists, (if published or not) for every skill level in the game. There is a tier list for Capcom cup but there is also a tier list for different regions, and different skill levels in regions, bronze to masters. A low tier character may be a high tier character depending on these factors, and saying "no, there factors don't even matter at low skill" is like saying the videogame does't exist at low skill. There's also a factor with balance that's something that's unfair in one place can be unfair anywhere - sometimes it's just missing the right technique or environment to be abused, if they buffed Honda in the right way, he could become just as abusive in high skill/pro; I've seen examples of this happening in online games countless times and the sheer arrogance of only balancing for the pros only keeps most players miserable and*will* cause a problem later on for the top 1%. Anyway- how do you balance such a thing - making a character fair at a reasonable diversity of skills and cultures? That's for the balance team to show their talent.

3:48 wow, even Master? Was not expecting that. As you said it's a wide range of play level but it still surprised me

Yes if the nerf is happening to an unhleathy part of their kit and that power gets allocated somewhere better to compensate. S1 Honda is unbalanced not in a sense that he's OP but in that a majority of his power is put into one very specific part of kit that makes him very polarizing. If you have an answer to the headbutt, he's trash. If you can't, gg thanks for the points.

I've always found it interesting how Capcom loves to gives Zangief new mechanics every sequel to make him super competitive, but poor Honda is still relying on stuff he's had since SSF2T.

Me listening: “Oh hey cool discussion, we should be more considerate of the effects of buffs and nerfs” Me watching: “Man I hope they murder Ken in this patch”

ill be here when the patch notes are released and your vid hits online, much love thru the years

On the flip side, the drive to kill the scrub killer can also be great motivation to improve if you're the type that's more inclined to get even than get mad.

Completely with you on the SSF4 -> AE comparison

Yea I agree nerfing the parts weaker players feel bad about to allow Honda to get some nerfs is a good way to tackle the character. As much as I hate fighting Honda, I do hope to see more of him. I feel the game is best when you see a little of everyone and everyone feels unique. I do hope the changes still have honda feel unique though.

How many more months till Season 2/Year 2 characters DLC is coming after Akuma and the updates on SF6?😏😏

Once Season 2 starts I was thinking maybe a video on general match up knowledge (knowledge checks) for all the characters would be amazing. Not like character specific match up knowledge but general match up knowledge to those characters. If you have the time ofcourse. Always appreciate all your videos. Thanks.

I'm so ready for this new Honda. I wanted to pick him right away when the game was qnnounced but it was quite clear very quckly that it was going to be very linear,.gimmicky, and boring, so I changed off him. Looking forward to trying him fresh.

Brother, this thumbnail alone gets the vid a thumbs up

My gut instinct tells me it’s almost always bad lol

Leroy took so many stray nerfs until he got buffed so it isn't unheard of

Cant wait for season 2. Thank you rooflemonger for what you do. I wish i could enjoy a few rounds with you.

This game was already more balanced than T8 or MK1 at launch and from looking at the small changes we can see it looks like Capcom is going down a smarter route than those two games already. People were crying about Luke buffs but I was actually glad to see they weren't just kneecapping him like what happened to a certain Peruvian recently. Top tiers just getting shot down with a mountain of nerfs isn't good for the game either despite how much I and many others hate playing against them. And the Honda nerfs/buffs show that from the other end of the tier list. It's interesting to see them balence an annoying, low tier character but it's looking decent so far. Obviously we have to wait for the full patch notes but right now I'm liking their approach here and if this is how intricate they have to do things it more than justifies the one patch per year model.

man i know it's not the topic of the video but this ryukichi guy in the background footage is cracked.

Sooo… does this mean we can expect Ken’s crazy kicks nerf?

One of your more interesting videos. Buffs and nerfs is something that requires a lot nuance to understand but is rarely discussed with such nuance.

Honda headbutt was giving Honda mains cte. Nerf is well needed to save them from further brain damage.

Its also a difference of online too. Fighting honda with zero lag is annoying but not too bad. Fighting Honda in ranked with some lag was shit-tier awful

Hondawinsdamost feels like that classic MTG...meme(?) "Red Deck Wins"

The thing about Honda is that every Honda has Honda Privilege. You see, you can be the most grounded, footsies based Honda in the world, but the fact that every single other Honda player is a nut means that you're going to be treated with more caution out the gate because people are expecting you to be a psychopath. It allows Hondas to take advantage of people even when they don't play crazy. You don't have to be an active participant to benefit from Honda cheese, hence, Honda Privilege.

It feels like there's a few characters, including Honda, which are basically just 'reworks' of the character. Talking about it in terms of nerfs or buffs is a little reductive, because it seems like the goals for how the characters play is different, not just little tweaks to damage or moves.

You know how Manon's Level 3 looks segmented with those dance poses? I feel like the amount of dance poses shown in the level 3 should depend on how many medals she has too, so more medals = more dance poses.

Pretty much confirming Honda players feed on hatred and ppl say you are what you eat so...

Wild to say how making an annoying character worse is good as Akuma gets ready to drop.

Man said scuttlebutt; made my day🦧🏴‍☠️

Honda Didnt got nerfed, its a rework ! (ФωФ)

Ok but that Ken player got BODIED by that Chun Li early on.... BUT *DAMN* Did he turn that around

Correct me if i am wrong but the casual players left 6 months ago everyone in the battlehub seems to be all masters and diamond players.The only thing casuals still play is avatar battles and there is alot of those they make up for most of the hub matches.

Inb4 they say it’s going to be 2 years between patches now.

rooflemonger has the best thumbnails in the bizz

I appreciate the small adjustment and then the larger one we are gonna get. I like that things have been able to largely settle and we know what is what as of know. Makes things feel more deliberate and measured. For all the issues SF6 has its very strong and I wouldn't be reckless with it. I get better players and those who play much more than me will find things stale and have issues feel more apparent. I do wish DR was toned down a little, more of a scalpel and less a sledgehammer. Honda becoming more well rounded is welcome and I have hope for the weaker characters. Though it really does feel Luke and Ken are meant to be on top no matter what.

Excellent video as always!!!! For Gief the down strong punch biff is for modern player because they don't have access strong kick and forward strong kick to juggle and doing lot's of damfe on punish counter so it's specially for modern player. Then the stomp buff make me belive that there will be changes on the frame data of Gief. Because without that the buff has no use. I think it could be a good way to make Gief combo better by adding a little bit of damage not to much. As it is now stomp is a 9 frame witch is not a low and have poor range, even with the buff it has no use because there is far more better option. So let's hope for a frame datta changes. And lariat hitting both side of course 😂😂

I was checking my win percentage against characters and actually have a pretty high win percentage against Honda, around 68%. Honda for me isn’t that big of an issue he’s just really really annoying to play against. I have like a 34% against Ken lol, so there are definitely other characters that I think that are bigger deals. Don’t get me wrong I hate Honda and if he gets nerve to the ground it wouldn’t bother me. If you’re curious, I main Jamie, my rank is Master

It seems the angle theyre taking is "nerf the overused aspect of the cbaracter and give them more tools to compensate" which, at the end of the day, will allow for more varied skill expression

Thanks!

"You not liking him makes me like him more" that's the exact reason I play Leo Whitefang and Rufus. But I do think that making Honda's gameplan more nuanced is going to help him. Like, cr.MK being special cancelable is HUGE. Don't know if it will give him the boost he needs to perform at the highest levels, but it's a good start.

Might be a low tier for the top % players but it's a braindead dumb character that most people can't deal with in lower ranks. They also didn't simply nerf the character, they changed his kit and gave him a variety of new options instead of the buttslam -> l.p -> buttslam spam

Right now, Honda is a character all about drive bar damage and knowledge checks. He's basically just a pile of gimmicks. Perhaps they're trying to move away from that, and make him a character who is more than just an irritating pace-changer.

As a Manon player, i really like Honda. He made me step up my defense. Im grateful.

It’s only a problem at high rank who knows how to deal with him. Up to mid plat and below it’s extremely rare you find someone who knows how to deal with headbutt and butt slam spammers.

Can we get a tier list on character personalities so we can call Juri low tier? Thanks for the vid.

New fighting game player with an honest question. What is so bad about throw loops? I’ve heard it mentioned on here that everyone hates them, but I don’t see how they are any different than any other 50/50 guess situation in the game. What am I missing about them? I get wrecked by throw loops, but I get wrecked by many other things too, so I guess I don’t understand what makes them different?

Im wondering if gimicky gief is gonna die cause hes in a somewhat similar state to honda but i think hes good as is once you get used to his attacks and how to deal with them

I’m excited for Manon buffs

I think Honda’s identity needs to be more than just trolling online. He’s frustrating to fight against with wifi or a bad connection. What i don’t understand is why they didn’t do the same with blanka ball.

Praying for substantial Manon buff 🙏

I’m here for Sim news and there is absolutely nada. He is floating in the middle of the pack (pun intended) but that could easily change with a few changes. I don’t want him to be as op as sfv but I’d love to see his old j.lp return for the instant overhead.

Hollup While the initial SSF4 AE had serious issues. Even intentional issues (Yun). I would argue SSF4 AE 2012 was peak SF4.

I'll defend throw loops for fun reasons. Having a well balanced game is more fun than playing an unbalanced mess, and while it can be irritating to get looped, they are satisfying to land, like everything else in the game. They work for good reasons/ in good situations, and after playing the game for a year, I still don't get why people are complaining about them when they are obviously a necessary part of the game. You just have to guess sometimes on defense.

I honestly love these changes, Honda is my favourite but I genuinely would love to see his neutral game be the focus, not yolo headbutts.

I'll be honest, even though its a tangent, I *hate* throw loops. I hate them SO MUCH. ONLY because not everyone has an emergency tool to get out of that situation. I have played anime games with unblockable setups where I don't feel so helpless as when I'm being throw-looped in the corner. So yeah. That's my rant. And also a comment for the algorithm since youtube likes it when people yap on and on in the comments. But I guess speaking of yapping. I hope gief gets the same treatment honda is getting. Better neutral tools, even if his gimmicks get flattened as a result. I'll GLADLY take a weaker SPD and level 3 doing less damage if it means I don't have to spend 3 drive to stabilize a light confirm and my mediums stop being basically signed and stamped letters of "Please DI me, love zangief" with next to no reward on hit or punish counter. His slaps - the tool that seems most designed to whiff punish ... *whiffs on the second swing of a whiff punish* ?????

Hard to not agree with this thought process. I'm just too darn scared of having 1 more year of BEASTMODE BAYBAYYY. When I started in SFV, I didn't know Casual was the trap and filled with gimmicky Honda and G, my experience was miserable...so if they are making this better for SFVI, we all win. Even THE Honda players will win in the long run...either play something else of actually learn some stuff!

For me lilly is the character i fear the most if capcom buffs her without changing her gameplay. If you're not a character that can pressure lilly quickly before she can stock up you hardly get a turn to play. Characters with decent to strong "gimmicks" can become a problem if not properly balanced. Watch this space regarding lilly

RAISE THE ROOF

For me its just matter of it going against my " no absolute thinking)". Even if character is considered one of the worst, that shouldn't exclude them from being nerd. I prefer to exercise a case by case scenario. Their time where it should be done amd times where its counter intuitive. It goes both way,.a top tier should be allow to have buffs if their something that running counter intuitive. For example I hate it when their tool that is either too niche or overshadow by similar too within the same character. I want every tool to have meaningful purpose wether their bottom tier , mid, or top. If boss banned them their irrelevant to me

Idk i as a gief man ive never had an issue with honda. Only times i got beat by honda players they plain out just out played me. However if they removed brain dead gimmicks for better set ups and oki then i think thats a better buff. From what I gather the lower tier character utility and oki are being improved while top tier receive some sort of footsie balance with nerfs to their brain dead mechanics are kept in check. Seems like capcom dev listened to the community also analyze properly on how they should nerf and compensate instead of nerf this nerf that and lets see how they work. This is a crazy take but I love the one year patch. So many people complained about characters and they all lost to juri who was slepted on. If its not completely broken or the ability can be out played then yeah ill agree knee jerking and mixing things up constantly isnt the way. This was the approach killer instinct devs used to make their game better and it worked.

What was wrong with SF4 Arcade Edition? I wasn't into fighting games back then, so I have no clue.

Honda 🤝 deejay 👉🗑️🪦

Honda needed nerf on his 2 over tuned move wish his normal would have received more buff though. For low tiers I feel it should be nerfs for moves that are used as a crutch while buffing and/or giving them buttons/specials that will allow them to compete with others.

Because fundamentally they do not want Honda, Gief, lily etc to be strong. It's just shuffling around poop in a purse. Two steps forward two steps back.

Go out and play with some Honda!

think i heard Luke overall is buffed on season2? planning to have Luke and Akuma compete for #1 spot?

If it's a net buff and they just nerf parts of a character that make casual play infuriating, I'm all for it. But usually that's not what happens

If we're talking about honda when a majority of people only headbutt and buttslam their way to victory lol

Calling a character that only top 500 players can reliably beat low tier will never make sense to me.

If Honda wins the most at all levels, then how can he be low tier? I feel like that's a misnomer at this point.

Headbutt/Buttslam being nerfed is not a surprise to Honda users. I assume most are surprised how small the nerfs actually are. It feels like nerfs are centered around making the game fun. Who has fun playing against or playing Honda with just headbutts and buttslams? Effective? Usually. Fun? Hell no. I bet Lily got some nerfs too that haven't been shown. Cammy is a higher tier character, along with JP, that got hit the hardest. Why? People hate playing against them. Capcom cares as much about fun as they do balance.

I'm a big irl sumo fan, and it makes me sad that Capcom made Honda a troll/joke character. Hope he gets better representation going forward

We will have peak SF when Honda is a "honest" top tier

Why cant Honda have his SF4 buttons?

To do this to Honda while letting blanka exist is crazy.

S+ tier thumbnail

I hope that we learned from F.A.N.G that low tiers can have powerful, overtuned, and incredibly annoying stuff that absolutely should get nerfed. Luckily, it looks like Capcom did.

I main Honda(Plat 2) and I don't spam Butt Slam and Headbutt. When you fight a Honda that is balanced he's great.

I think if your goal is to get rid of degenerate stuff; I can see nerfing kits that harass the lower tiers. But if your goal is to make more people play a lower tier character; you want to give them rewarding stuff to compensate for removing the easier stuff they can abuse. That being said; it does always seem like something that devs overcorrect on, so we’ll see if that works out for this patch or not. We’ll probably have to wait a whole year for the next patch anyway lol

Yes when its good for the overall health of the game. Honda was only low tier to people who can consistently nail 2 frame perfect parries

They should’ve eliminated throw loops. Terrible to watch as a spectator.

From what I understand, Honda is loosing cheese-specials and gaining real normals and options. The problem old Honda had is that once opponents can deal with his few but powerful tricks, he didn’t have many good normals to actually fight with.

The fact that you hate SF4:AE makes me love it even more. That’s just the kinda guy I am :)