Also, here are some more videos that I sprinkled throughout as B-Roll that I forgot to put in the description: Choy Li Fut vs Wing Chun: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_RXFjhkJWbQ.html Fight Commentary Rob vs Paris: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ZRPI0K8n6VI.html Also, the full interview that viewer Hendrik Santo linked is on Bilibili, search this video idea in the search box: BV1RE411v71S Let me know if there are any other videos that I forgot to link!
Thanks for posting! I'm currently learning shaolin, but we also train sanda, below is a short sparring clip if you're interested. I'm in yellow shirt going up against a former mexican Olympic boxer. We are still beginner in sanda so nothing fancy.
I cant find these documents but it has been posted by David A. Ross on his Real Kung fu application FB page. who is well versed in Chinese martial arts, Sanda and the history of it, as he is an actual historian. He's one of the many knowledgeable coaches in the U.S. I'd hit him up. He also has contacts in the CMA community in both China and Taiwan.
@Audio 9999 It is amazing to me that people talk as if they have absolute truth when in reality they are completely wrong. Chinese martial arts do not only exist in mainland under communists. There were (are) Chinese martial arts people in Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan but a few examples Chinese martial arts fought Muay Thai a LOT in 60's and 70's. There are many times Chinese lost, a few times they won. One example of Chinese winning was "Saint of Penang" but he had a lot of experience fighting against Muay Thai fighters and event allowed him to use throws San Da was MILITARY AND POLICE TRAINING... the 1979 event talked about here is for CIVILIAN version San Da was in military from 1949 on until TODAY... Military is for combat, not just "ring"
"It came down to we had no sparring experience". That's the ticket. Right there. The utmost important aspect of ALL martial arts comes down to who spars and who doesn't. You don't even have to HARD spar 90% of the time. But it's the most important tool to getting better. If you can't land a jab, or do a double leg, how can you learn some of the flashier and fancier stuff shown in some of these system's arsenals?
This is exactly why *Bruce Lee* started to revolutonize the way Chinese martial arts were being taught at the time, and developed into an early kind of MMA. He said " *How do you expect to fight like that?* These old tigers have no teeth!" @Fight Commentary Breakdowns maybe you should cover the whole Bruce Lee and Chinese Kung Fu story in a video? :) p.s CMA styles ARE effective, if taught correctly. Check Shaolin master Shifu Kanishka on youtube for example
not only that, cause they often never seem to understand htat keeping ego in ave or down is part of how not to open up for being weak by showing weak points.
Sparring is only part of the requirement for the art to be competitive. Fighter must compete, at least with practitioner of the same art. But preferably, against other arts as well. Use the information and experiences to cover the weaknesses, and improve with better preparation. Only then, can the martial art progress. To stand still, is the reverse direction, while other arts progress.
@@sportmuaythaiv1045 but all the time when these art expterts from China fight they seem to loose all the basic elements like keping gravity low etc. etc. WHy on earth do they not practise focusing on these even befrore sparring; I mean, sometimes it seems like they would not even be able to sparr?
Quick question, sir: why 'ex' though? Why not just Sanda fighter and coach, and what caused you to quit? Will you ever get back into Sanda? Thanks in advance.
Used to do Sanda/Sanshou for about 6 months. Never went into the grappling techniques (had to change towns) but it was one of the most real/efficient Chinese martial arts I have seen. Very similar to MMA.
1974 Bkk Thailand 5 Kung Fu Masters from Hong Kong came to Thailand looking to challenge Thai's. These Masters were breaking stones with their bare hands. Told the Thai team they didn't want Boxing gloves. They wanted Bareknuckle. The Thai team agreed. No gloves for The Kungfu Masters. But the Thais kept the gloves. 5 fights all the fights combined lasted 7 mins. All the masters got destroyed in the first round. The 5 Chinese Masters names -Chen Yew-Kuang -Tang li Yuan -Ou Joon Hai -Teng Oi Hong -Loo Ui-Liang There is a huge Chinese population in BKK. The Chinese fans packed the stadium. After the fights the Chinese fans were salty. Calling Thai fighters BARBARIC, and Cruel. Keep in mind this was the 70's Bruce Lee was very popular at the time. And Chinese fans were in disbelief.
The Chinese had always thought that their "profound" wisdom in the arts and chi cultivation techniques were far superior than that of the "simple" thai pugilism. They look down on the dark-skinned southeast Asians as if they were simple peasants. When all of their representatives were easily defeated, they couldn't take it. Then again, it is pretty humiliating losing to those you've condescended for the longest time. Cognitive dissonance on a massive scale lol.
Krypteian Thank you for bringing that to light I was being cautious . You said it now I’m going to let people really know. Why the Thais allowed the. Chinese kung fu fighter’s to go bare knuckle and the Thai fighters remain wearing gloves. So they can show the Chinese fans that they could beat their masters easily. Under any rules. Yessss,the Chinese are really racist towards Southeast Asians. They mocked and laugh at The Thai fighters screaming obscenities. It fueled the Thai fighters rage . It became a competition amongst the Thais who could finish these masters the fastest. In the most brutal fashion . From 1972 all the way 2005 the rivalry was still heated. I remember in 1999 only 19, I fought in a Amateur MT vs Sanshou tournament. After I won my uncle told me to go show respect to my opponents team. The Chinese coach called me a stupid dark Thai". With my head down I walked back to my corner. And my uncle yelling at me! Why I didn't shake their hands!? In fear of igniting a riot between Thais and Black versus Chinese. I never said anything. My Boxing coach was Black he was in my corner along with my uncle.
Back in 1958 & 1961, a few Kung Fu practitioners of Hong Kong went to Thailand to challenge Thai kickboxing. They were all defeated by Thai boxers, they couldn't put up a fight. Lee Yingarn, author of Iron palm in 100 days, also went to Thailand with the team members; he didn't fight any Thai kickboxer. When he came back, he wrote a book about Thai kickboxing. One of his team members named Yau-Lun Chen fought a Thai boxer, and he lost. After his loss, he started studying Thai kickboxing and he became a Thai kickboxing teacher in Hong Kong. He was one of the few Thai kickboxing teachers in Hong Kong back in the 60's. Yau-Lun Chen was also a movie actor; he played in a few old "Wong Fei Hung" movies. Sanda was invented around the early 70's like this Sanda practitioner said. Lack of sparring is one of the reasons that Kung Fu isn't progressing.
Lee YingArn was actually my father's master. His wife still lives here in Guatemala. Also his son, daughters and family who my father and I know and see each other at the chinese community meetings. This video is so important to understand the development of martial arts in general.
@@markemailonly3114 That’s the biggest problem about comparing styles. What rules are used? Various Sanda fighters won against Muay Thai fighters in China but they used Sanda rules. Of course they would.
@@YTPruleYes, there is also the simplistic believe that damage scoring and knockouts prove a style is more realistic. Just because you can't do damage with wrestling or throws doesnt mean they wont end a fight on concrete.
Rewatching this again gives me a lot of respect for how straightforward and honest, not merely with the audience, but with himself, he is. It's this kind of self-reflection that leads to improvement and refinement.
Sanda is under appreciated in the west. Cung Lee had sanda popping for a while but I think after zabit gets the belt sanda will get bigger in the states
First of all thank you forbthe video. I trained mantis fist and sanda, my teacher told me pretty much the same thing when he got us sparring, he said sanda was made by boxing, muay thay and shuai jiao, buy he told us any tcma strike or technique that can be done with gloves can be included, he also told us many traditionalist dont like sanda and prefer not to train and compete in it, he simply said kung fu combat sport is sanda, traditional CMA and self defence are another thing
I appreciate how you can look at the strengths & weaknesses of Kung-Fu objectively. I was actually surprised to find how few schools have sparring in their training. My first school (waaaay back in the late '80s) had students sparring after earning Orange Belt. Somewhere here on RU-vid is a documentary about a Chinese man that, after getting his Black Belt in Karate in Japan, returned to China to train in Wing Chun, & at the end of his training, he & the Sifu put on gloves & padding & sparred in a ring.
this is actually the problem with TCMA in mainland China, they dont actually exist. You put on boxing gloves and it just becomes sanda and thats all they actually have there under the name of TCMA even though the techniques are largely lost.
Also the original rule set of Savate allowed takedowns and knee strikes then when Boxe Français developed after WWII they took out the knees and takedowns.
this only proves that the Chinese government has always tried to create an efficient style in combat, and this gentleman has confirmed my hypothesis, now we see that there are practitioners who really realized the ineffectiveness of kung fu, Sanda is an efficient style in combat. and this channel is awesome, history of martial arts, fight analysis, this channel should be on ESPN or fox Sport, congratulations, I salute here in Brazil. ah the Spanish subtitles any news? thanks for the video.
Sanda es kung fu son los golpes y patadas del kung fu, es el kung fu reglamentado para pelear en un ring, no por que tu digas o este canal que el kung fu no sirve no quiere decir que sea así, si así fuera el karate no hubiera nacido del kung fu, como otras artes marciales que nacieron del kung fu
@@kffigther821nada disso, se você não assistiu o video, o senhor que foi um dos que participou da criação do Sanda, afirmou que foi um conjunto de técnicas de diversos estilos marciais, como o boxe, muay thai e alguns elementos combativos de wrestling e shuai jhao. Foi isso que ocorreu. E o karatê modificou diversos golpes para ser mais combativos.
Sanda was created back in the Republic China period, when the Kuomintang was still in power(That was in 1920, if i remember correctly). I mean, the three things were very clear to see here are Qinna(The grappling), Wrestling(Mongolian Wrestling of course), the kick of Northern Shaolin(Not taekwondo though. I don't get why people always consider practicing the leg as "Taekwondo", even Kyokushinkai Karate has better legs than Taekwondo). Other than that, the punching is clearly Boxing, no argument there. Sometimes the kicks are mixed with Muay Thai too, so on and so forth...basically you guys know the rest.
@@canaldesugestoesa6651 You say pure stupidity, the sanda has nothing of muay thai or other martial arts, the sanda is a mixture of various styles of kung fu and there has always been desquence that started the sanda competitions in the year 600 also created the fighting techniques on the ground, the sanda is the mode of combat of kung fu only that the real fight of kung fu has more than is shown only in the fights because kung fu teaches you how to fight in addition to using the techniques of your
Kung fu teaches you how to fight as seen in your sanda fights and besides to use the techniques of its forms, you know nothing you're just a mediocre critic who speaks pure stupidity, kung fu has always been effective and much more than karate and until muay thai, and you don't have to cope with anything to anyone
I personally knew the teacher who brought boxing to Sanda. His name was Nie Shao Jie. His mom was Russian, father was Chinese. Nie laoshi learned boxing from Russian trainer in Harbin city, on the North of China, Heilongjiang province. He and his friend wrote to Beijing Sport Committee about this idea of Combat sport. (Unfortunately I do not remember the name of his friend. It might be the man of this video, because the story he is telling is close to what I heard from Nie laoshi). I lived in Harbin for tree years, and met Nie laoshi in 2008-2009. Nie laoshi died one year later. I spent with Nie laoshi last year of his life. He told me a lot about history of Wushu Sanda.
Nie Shao Jie told me, that his friends name, who brought Chinese Wushu technique to Sanda was Ma Fu Ling. He went to Beijing with this idea of mixing boxing with wushu.
Zhang Wenguang and Jiang Haoquan also played an important role in incorporating boxing into Wushu. They both trained boxing at the Central Kuoshu Institute, which was already experimenting with the idea of boxing + kung fu kicks + shuai jiao
In 1983 an official Swedish team went to Taiwan WC Koushu tournament where Sanda was part of the game. The swedes took, among other medals, gold in men`s heavy weight Sanda. Sanda at the time was as tough as it would be. People were badly injured, disabled or put to death in this competition. It was commonly called a knock-down competition and the combatants wore tight swimtrunks and thin cotton gloves. It was definitely a brutal forerunner to contemporary MMA. Those guys partaking in this bloodsport were also my Wushu instructors just a few years later. They were stone tough. However, before leaving for this tournament they sparred with a team of Swedish Muay Thai boxers here in Stockholm, one of whom later on also was my instructor in Muay Thai. The coach for this Swedish Sanda team was a Chinese named Louis Linn who still runs his Wushu academy (O Shin Chuen) in Stockholm and he was also one of the developers of rules for the Sanda sport in its early days and Chinese wrestling - Shuai Jiao - in these days. From my own experience I would say that Sanda only has borrowed Western boxing. The kicks and blocks and take downs are very Chinese and are found in different styles of Chinese Wushu. TKD has clearly another curriculum and so does Karate and Muay Thai. Sifu Lous Linn is easily found on RU-vid and cannot be overlooked in these founding discussions.
I think this is a good history of how modern San Shou developed in Mainland China. On Taiwan and Hong Kong, the Nationalists brought Kuoshu Lei Tai from the Central Kuoshu Institute in Nanjing, and the San Shou developed there is different, with more emphasis on striking (and some rules differences).
Interesting video. I've lived in China for the last seven years and have trained with various martial artists, including national Shuaijiao champion from around the same time as this video mentions. This perfectly lines up with what most of the older folks I've trained with have told me. It's quite interesting really.
@@FightCommentary Oh, they basically just said stuff about taking the punching from boxing and whatnot and that Sanda was always a mixture of Kung Fu and other non-Chinese styles. A lot of them are big boxing fans.
@@Mharriscreations So San Da is like combination of boxing , kicks from various schools of Chinese martial Arts and mix it with Shuai Jiao and also knees and elbows from like xing to quan and bagua or southern styles . Is this what they said ?
@@victorv8332 Basically, just minus the elbows for sport Sanda. They told me combat Sanda has the elbows and knees and some locks from Qin Na, but sport took out the locks and elbows and only a few rule sets allow the knees for sport Sanda...And the kicks are like a mixture of Muay Thai and TKD. (I think that last one is a mixture of what they said and what I said from studying about its formation a bit...Its been quite a while now..)
UFC also changed rules to make grapplers less dominant and matches more exciting for average viewer. Most notably, introduction of rounds and decisions. Purists bemoaned, but without those changes UFC would have died out long ago. Even boxing was changed number of times to become more viewer-friendly - in early 1900's, there were no round limits. So matches were defensive slugs which easily lasted 30 or 40 rounds if the fighters had equal skill and conditioning. Same thing is why professional wrestling evolved into work, btw. Legit pro wrestling was just not very exciting for most people.
I don't think Qian is actually correct about the rules forbidding initiating grappling. Neither the Chinese Wushu Association or International Wushu Federation Sanda rules forbid initiating grappling. However, I do know that initiating grappling was banned in the Sanda vs Muay Thai matches after 2009, and Wu Lin Feng started out with using Sanda-like rules with similar restrictions on grappling to keep fights fast-paced and thus more entertaining.
I've been practicing martial arts since the mid 60s. I've watched the evolution of a Lot of martial arts. When you look back at old footage you have to remember that things developed out of culture. I remember reading about the kung fu against Maui Thai bouts in one of the martial arts magazines. There was two events the first was with gloves and all the kung fu guys lost then there was a complaint against the gloves. They held another event where the kung fu guys did not wear gloves but they still lost.
@@hansihobr that was one of the interesting things I saw from watching older fight videos from the '90s (etc.). We were still seeing the same long list of excuses back then, which implied that the people making those excuses were already used to losing fights and had already developed a pretty exhaustive form of apologetics to make sure that even when they lose they win.
elenchus That or they were more used to fighting without gloves and couldn’t handle head punches like kyokushinkai who were one of only two styles of stand up martial arts that went to Thailand and didn’t lose
Muaythai has been national sport of Thailand for a very long time. Fighters make a career from professional muaythai, and a lot of money can be made. Therefore, camp owners and trainers do their best to prepare their fighters. Techniques are improved over time, just like professional boxing. Witness muaythai clinching. They are far superior to clinching of yore, when muaythai fighters like Abhidej Sithirun were fighting. BTW, Abhidej was my first muaythai teacher.
Yeah, something that was lost when Kung Fu moves were used to success in MMA, since kung fu is not just wing chun chi sao or doing forms to perform in shows.
This is absolutely amazing. In Vietnam Sanda used to feature in SEAGAME, and was practiced by a very small community. I too used to train Sanda for a few month out of curiosity.
I did Kajukenbo for many years, and it is so interesting that Kajukenbo seems to have similar ancestry to Sanda. The difference is that Kajukenbo probably incorporated more small joint manipulation from Jujutsu but Sanda had more wrestling from Shuai Jiao. I want to see a Kajukenbo VS Sanda match!
It’s a Hawaiian martial art that incorporates karate, judo, kenpo And boxing the name kajukenbo is just the first part of all those martial arts lol, it is considered one of the very first mixed martial arts and it’s great for self defense👍
Well that confirms it. Ive met a lot of Sanda guys who are still adamant that its a pure Chinese martial art. That it never been influenced by Western art like boxing in any way. Lol here it is
Yeah, it makes sense. I think even Thai Boxing had a lot of boxing and kickboxing influence. The influence of boxing in most popular combat sports styles cannot be emphasized enough.
Fight Commentary Breakdowns Muay Thai definetly had boxing influence. It was in the reign of Chulalongcorn when they started learnig from boxers. Theres a reason why Muay Thai uses gloves and had stuff like “sok” or jabs which were non-existent in period references of old Muay Boran. Also Jerry, awesome vid by the way!
Stian Johnson Lol theres not such thing as sword muay thai. You might be talking about Krabi Krabong though. Muay Boran is the forefather of modern muay thai.
I think Sanda to look more unique is to use Shui jao uniform for jacket wrestling, MMA gloves for easier grappling and savate shoes because kung fu is trained with shoes already, also have a weapon aspect.
I'd love to see more from the man in this interview. I have become very curious about Sanda recently and I am starting to absolutely love it. Anybody who says 'it is nothing but kickboxing' is showing their ignorance. There are similarities to other arts obviously because they are influenced by them but it has its own unique flavour and this video gives so much good information about the history of it.
This was really cool. I love to search for the origins of stuff like this. When I first saw Sanda mentioned the person said it was probably the closest thing to Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do. I've always wondered why traditional Chinese martial arts hasn't updated the styles and brought it into the modern era. Every Wing Chun or Tai Chi "Street fight" I've seen on RU-vid always look like a bunch of drunks at a bar fight. Like everything they've learned goes out the window in a real fight.
Excuse the follow up comment In the grappling part, it is true, they introduced the 2 second clinch rule, they also took out strikes from the clinch thou, they score zero points, to favor throwing from that position, also, esrly they had elbows and knees just like muay thai, they had been taken out because grapplers would shoot and get knocked out or injures from getting hit with a knee, which they were not used to, my teacher also told me that they took out kneed and elbows to make it less bloody in the hope to have the sport added to the olympics. Once again thank you for digging this video out and translating it, I would have never had a chance to see it other wise
This was very interesting, hearing martial arts history straight "from the horse's mouth". The realizations and decisions back then were very interesting, such as the boxing and wrestling bits. Great video!
The key here is that this interview with this teacher is ONE STORY in part of a larger history. Yes, his experience was with the post-Communist late 1970's / early 1980's start of what we call "San Da". But there is a much larger history. Chinese martial arts always had those who trained correctly and could fight and those who, to just be diplomatic, could not fight. Beginning in 1928 you had the Guoshu Lei Tai events. Many said "kung fu is not a sport" and sat in the stands, being critical but not fighting! Some were deluded, and just like the current crop of fake masters getting KO'ed by Xu they lost on the Lei Tai. Of course there were those who got on the Lei Tai, fought, and showed skill. The key is the real fighters were all open minded. In the 1920's and 1930's they were experimenting with western boxing and Japanese Judo. The Central Kuoshu Academy of course had people who could fight. Chang Dongsheng could fight and continued to train fighters. He continued to train them in Taiwan after 1949. As for "communist China", those who could fight were quickly acquired and put to work training military and police. When communist Chinese said in the 1970s "cadre do not fight each other" they meant that it was ILLEGAL for civilians to train combat application skills. My primary teacher, Chan Tai San, taught close quarters combat in the military and to police forces. But among the civilians in mainland, the applicable skills suffered until 1979. Why did it change? The decline of Maoist wing which and rise of Deng's vision, more concerned with economy and no longer cared to try to control every aspect of daily life. "Socialist market economy" meant more freedom, including to train martial arts. But, of course, those who understood how to fight were mostly in military or in police. So the conference was to start a PUBLIC san da program, and they brought together civilian teachers who still had skills to contribute. As for the TERRIBLE Wu Kung Yi vs Chan Hak Fu fight you show clips of (black and white)... civilian martial arts in Hong Kong were also forbidden to spar and train effectively under British rule. Parallel problems in both communist and non communist Chinas... Taiwan, under nationalist government strongly still controlled by military which was pro martial arts meant more fighting in Taiwan. Look at national lei tai tournaments that continued. Look at Hong Yixiang. It is all very complicated, not simple.
People want easy answers. The truth is never black and white... Why can't kung fu fight? Was kung fu ever able to fight? Why / when / where / how did sanshou (or san da) get started? You can look at the two famous "masters" Wu Kung Yi and Chan Hak Fu "fighting" in Macau in 1954 and conclude that kung fu could never fight and all masters are fake. Another example would be the PATHETIC "roof top fights" of Wing Chun legend that look like little kids slap fighting. There are stories about kung fu men going to Thailand and all being KO'ed in the first round. Then there is Xu Xiaodong beating all these fake masters up... ON THE OTHER SIDE. Beginning in 1928 we saw Lei Tai tournaments in which kung fu people were really fighting. We know the men who did step on the Lei Tai trained for fighting, they all did free sparring (which we are often told is not part of traditional CMA!) Chang Dongsheng won the 1933 tournament, he was also a teacher at the Central Kuoshu Academy. He knew what real fighting was. He continued to train real fighters in Taiwan after the civil war. MY primary teacher Chan Tai San was on the mainland. He trained military and police. He fought in a provincial sparring tournament in 1954... He and his senior came in 3rd and 2nd respectively, both losing to the 1st place person, a Xingyi Quan fighter. The same year that there was a crap-fest in Macau, on the mainland there was real fighitng. IN 1979 when the Deng inspired government relaxed things and they started the modern sanshou / san da movement, many civilian martial artists had not trained fighting since before the cultural revolution, but certainly some real masters were left. BECAUSE THEY CAME UP WITH THE MODERN SAN DA PROGRAM. You will note if you really read up on these things that in CMA those who actually fought did not often believe in "chi" or "dim mak", sparring regularly AND were open to things like boxing and Judo.....
David Ross Did you hear were he said western boxing is the best upper body skills in fighting, so that negates all those ridiculous Kung fu hand painting moves don’t work .Test it out yourself.
@@76kamikazi for over 25 years I have trained fighters, 18 national sanshou champions, three world san da champions, national Muay Thai champion, guys who fought full rules in Thailand, golden gloves boxing finalists in NYC, kickboxing champions, amateur and professional MMA (mixed martial arts) champions... So "maybe" I "test it out myself" already So maybe you don't know who you are talking to, maybe you should not really talk when you don't have a single video of yourself doing anything? Maybe test that out YOURSELF
David Ross Been there done that for over 45 years, i don’t only talk i show, real martial arts peoples in the know here in MiamI know my reputation I’m not another RU-vid video martial art champion like Chinise Kung fu artist are.
@@76kamikazi yeah, we must be "youtube champions" because all our fights are all over youtube ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-eUxLI9ktnsg.html
18:40 i think the reason why they took away some takedowns is becouse most of the people who created sanda were strikers. Where as most of peolle who created mma in the 90s were grapplers who wanted to promote grappling.
I don't think Qian is actually correct about the rules forbidding initiating grappling. Neither the Chinese Wushu Association nor International Wushu Federation Sanda rules forbid initiating grappling, nor have any of the professional tournaments ever had such a rule. However, I do know that initiating grappling was banned in the Sanda vs Muay Thai matches after 2009, and Wu Lin Feng started out with using Sanda-like rules with similar restrictions on grappling to keep fights fast-paced and thus more entertaining. Also, many of the pioneers of Sanda came from a Shuai Jiao background, e.g.: Mei Huizhi, Li Baoru, Du Zhongxun, etc.
@Michael Terrell II Modern MMA doenst descends from japanese Pancrase. Even more, in fact I don't think that pancrase rules make it possible to call it mma. Modern MMA descend from Brazilian Vale Tudo scene. I don't understand why people doenst want to give credit where credit is due.
Hey Jerry, that was such a great video. Definitely one of the best things I've ever watched on RU-vid. I also really appreciate you leaving the og 字幕 in the video. I have one thing I'd like to add to your comparison of UFC and Sanda with regards to the ways each overcame the issues brought on by dominance of grapplers over strikers. I freely admit I'm no expert, but I'd add that while strikers in the UFC were forced to increase their grappling skills, they also benefited from the addition of 5 minute rounds (during which they have less time to get subbed). In addition to giving strikers a better chance, this rule also made UFC events more exciting to watch. Otherwise, UFC might still be dominated by grapplers and be boring for most people to watch.
I don't think Qian is actually correct about the rules forbidding initiating grappling. Neither the Chinese Wushu Association nor International Wushu Federation Sanda rules forbid initiating grappling, nor have any of the professional tournaments ever had such a rule. However, I do know that initiating grappling was banned in the Sanda vs Muay Thai matches after 2009, and Wu Lin Feng started out with using Sanda-like rules with similar restrictions on grappling to keep fights fast-paced and thus more entertaining.
Thanks man! Please share this! If more people watch this, I will make more like this. RU-vid likes it when I make style vs style, so I will always default to that type of video until there's enough interest in this type of in-depth and culture changing type of video.
@@FightCommentary There's a lot of cultural stuff that people misunderstand in history of martial arts. So much that even I myself would like to make a video about this subject... Haha! There's a lot of nonsense being said on RU-vid about this (not your case, of course). But thanks for the good content. I already shared this video. :)
MMA before UFC1. The world was all evolving at once in the 70s and 80s. Chute Box, San Da, Kickboxing vs Muay Thai, and eventually UFC 1. I think it’s funny that San Da ended up the same way as UFC - all the grapplers just dominated those who were strikers only lol
@@oneguy7202 Modern MMA don't descend from these tho. People were fistfighting before boxing, and kicking things for fun before soccer and football. Etc. I don't understand why people think they are being smart when they say these kind of bullsh1t that you just said it.
Modern MMA descends from Brazilian Vale Tudo (MMA by other name) scene. The same way modern boxing descends from english first fighting, and soccer and football descends from British "kicking objects" sports, etc.
@@oneguy7202 Just remembered that in the video the guy just gives a good example of what I said it, modern boxing descends from english boxing, and not from Chinese boxing, doenst matter who is older. The same way modern MMA descends from Brazilian Vale Tudo\MMA and not from Pankration, doenst matter if Pankration is older. Simple.
elenchus hahaha if you’re a SanDa fighter in the USA there is very little information like this floating around. My coach is from The shaolin Tagou School in China and I’ve been training in SanDa with him for 7 years. The history of sanda was always unclear to me until this video. I always get excited about this shit cause all I see is Muay Thai and normal kickboxing videos but it’s nice to see RU-vidrs who appreciate the style of sanda like I do. I love all martial arts but sanda was always my foundation.
Fight Commentary Breakdowns yes of course, I will make sure I send this to my Coach and all my martial arts friends! I really appreciate you digging for this, it’s so hard to find this stuff, keep up the great work🙏🏽
@@ericdelpiano8552 There's another interview with Xu Xiaodong's Sanda coach that I might translate too, but it's not on RU-vid so it's more work because I have to figure out a way to download it and then translate it. He basically says the same thing as this Sanda Coach. I figure if people are going to not listen to this coach, they're probably not going to listen to another Sanda coach. I'll keep you posted if I do translate it.
nysanda.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/tan-guancheng.jpg Tan Guancheng, “The Warrior Sage of Penang”, who was one of the first Chinese martial artists to defeat a Muay Thai fighter. Here, we see several issues we must ALWAYS keep in mind; Tan was very tough, Tan was familiar with Thai boxing methods, the format allowed Tan to use throws and he had obviously trained throwing in a very practical manner because he was able to use them consistently to his advantage.
While he basically confirms what I had already hypothesized about the evolution of sanda (which is in itself very rewarding), the part about restricting wrestling was super interesting. It seems so obvious now hearing him say that, since we know historically that whenever pure strikers meet pure grapplers,, the pure strikers almost invariably lose. There would have been a mechanism there to level the playfield or it would just be constant takedowns and striking would be secondary, which obviously isn't the case. Anyway, super interesting and important stuff. Now people can learn sanda and know the real history of their style.
Yeah. It's always funny when strikers say they'll just punch or kick the wrestler. Good luck even seeing the takedown. When I did Kajukenbo, I always avoided wrestlers.
I'd also like to add that I believe the reason why they decided not to implement more grappling techniques into Sanda was because they did not want to make it explicitly identical to "Western MMA." I don't buy the "there is no market in grappling." MMA is currently a pretty big industry in Asia.
@Audio 9999 Sure, something called sanda. But the sanda you see today didn't begin forming until the 1970s and really wasn't its own thing until the '80s. Your parents are older than sanda.
There's a few holes in the interview. There is evidence San Da started in 1920 in police and military useage and was rooted in modernized Kung Fu with bare knuckle fighting. However, I think this master is really referring to the standardization of modern (by today's standard) San Da. There was a huge conference back in the 60's where the government organized in an effort to standardize San Da. This wasn't the birth of it. My father grew up in the streets in Shanghai during the Cultural Revolution. He learned mainly SanDa while picking up Shaolin BaBu (I don't know the English term sorry) along with Tai Chi (which looked nothing like Tai Chi at all) along with a lot of other forms in a true mixed Kung Fu. There's a lot of probably translation errors but what he ended up with was something very similar to Bruce Lee's style. The way he moved, the simplicity and practicality of movements along with speed and power all resembled Bruce Lee. It was NOTHING like the movie Kung Fu almost everyone sees. He ended up winning almost-no rule bare knuckle competitions "Lei Tai" in Shanghai and Jiangsu (which unfortunately don't exist today) in his high school years. He later came to the US on a scholarship to teach combat sports and ended up studying at George Mason. He was in a sparring team which had mixed background (with Jet Li himself) and was later invited to teach at a few programs. I have seen him and many of his friends fight countless amounts of people challenge him as they see him teaching Kung Fu (he taught kids in the early 2000's for free). Like I said earlier, the way he fights is very much like Bruce Lee and it is incredible. My first point is, many fighters back in the early 70's when this Thai vs China fight supposedly happens is well within the years my father and his colleagues have been fighting. It is very surprising to see that China would send these fake Qi-Gong masters instead of real martial artists. There are plenty of Kung Fu fighters who fought like Bruce Lee who were effective, experienced and practical Kung Fu fighters. My second point is that my father and his colleagues have been practicing San Da well before this conference. I'm not saying the interviewer was lying but I believe the interviewer was one of these traditional fake martial artists who's eyes were opened. This does not represent the entire landscape of Chinese fighting. You can message me on my personal account if you would like more information on this (my facebook might be linked). He is a fountain of knowledge of legitimate Chinese fighting.
Brilliant video and a look into the real history of Sanda. I don't think all traditional kung fu is from the same cloth though. Here in the UK on a night out, I once saw a group of big guys walk past some lads from the local choy Li fut club and they made a racist remark. The Choy Li fut guys knocked them all clean out like it was nothing. Back in the day the club was notorious for the practice of full contact sparring aswell as practicing against multiple attackers. I've seen lots of choy Li fut videos on youtube of sparring but it's just doesn't look the same and doesn't resemble the Choy Li fut skill level I've seen.
Please remember that as you go back in time there will be less footage and lost documentation. From the 90's on down you will have to dig extremely deep to find things. I mean reading old news articles, magazine articles, trying to find defunct magazines that had information about fighting events or sending requests to government departments in China to retrieve that information.
I remember when I first started my martial arts journey and the school I picked taught Gung Fu or more accurately Chinese Martial Arts. For 2 years I almost never sparred, the focus was on forms and drilling technique. I was a teenager and eager to test myself so I had a group of friends who studied different styles and we would spar with very little equipment and no supervision (wasn't wise but we were young and dumb). It was chaotic at first but the more sparring I did the more I figured out what worked for me and what didn't and I began to refine my techniques. One day my Sifu decided to leave our school to start his own, him and his sifu just disagreed on curriculum among other things. He took the students that primarily worked with him including me with him. The differences in his school and our former one was like day and night. We still had forms and drilled technique but he included a lot of conditioning and sparring. We all improved dramatically. I would say 90% of schools that teach chinese martial arts in this country (USA) don't do any type of sparring or pressure testing. I know that most "Kung Fu" schools I walk into I would more than likely run through their students and its not cause im some phenominal fighter or badass but simply because they never sparred and I do often. Sanda is a great example of how effective Chinese martial arts can be if you are open minded and strip away all the bullshit.
There were a series of those early Kung Fu vs Muay Thai matchups. And, at least from my research, Choy Lay Fut was the only system that kinda stood a chance (at least that's what those who saw the fights personally, said.) I've yet to find video, however, now that you've shown interest Jerry, i will try to track it, should it exist.
Around 1973-74 some groups of chinese martial art fighters came to fight with our muay thai fighters in Bangkok and all of the chinese fighters completely lossed. I do believe that they learned such a great lesson that made them developped the good system of fighting like this Sanda today. Great job. Respect from Thailand.
@Milo Stringer I have rechecked the matter of Choi le fut again and I have found no evidences to prove that he has fought with our thai atheltes in our country. Any how there are so many informations in the social net work which beyond my perception though.
Interesting. Older Chinese MAists I knew would remark "Boxing is the best offense" or something that effect. I didn't realize it was so prevalent a way of thinking
Great interview and video! I practiced San-da for 6 year and I come from karate shotokan.. I really love San-da but there are no more San-da coach in my city.. So I stopped in 2007 and started powerlifting .. Very sad.. I prefer martial arts but there are not good coach.. The only one have left to coaching...
There are some black wing Chun and Kung Fu masters from the 70's or few decades ago from NYC, that you might want to post on your page. They defeated many other styles in those days with Wing Chun and other Kung Fu.
Watch documentary “Fighting Black Kings”. From early 70s. About American team at World Kyokushinkai Championship. But it has a section in it about Chinese Wing Chun team who get their butts handed to them.
Muay Thai had no effect on Sanda except the appearance of a low kick. Sanda has a side kick and spinning kicks, and these kicks are missing in Muay Thai. In Muay Thai clinchs are common, and in Sanda there are rarely clinches, because there are captures and throws. In Sanda, the kicks are faster, again due to grabs and throws. In Sanda, the work of boxing is being given, while in Muay Thai more emphasis is placed on the elbows. Muay Thai’s only merit was that the government finally allowed Kung Fu representatives to spar.
@@aluisiofsjr No, it’s obvious that this is NOT at all true, Sambo and Kickboxing are a good confirmation of this. Kickboxing in the first contact with Muay Thai only in the 80s, and the only influence of Muay Thai is the appearance in kickboxing low kick. In a ring, most martial arts will look similar.
@@aluisiofsjr This is the first contact of Western Kickboxing against Muay Thai: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Lpl_7w8-jTE.html The Muay Thai fighter was lucky that Kickboxer did not know how to defend himself from low kicks, as this Kickboxer repeatedly knocked down the Muay Thai fighter.
@@aleebak7406 , your reply doesn't touch on the subject. If it wasn't for that humiliation by the Muay Thai, Kung Fu would not need to reform as Sanda. Muay Thai was the main motivation.
@@aluisiofsjr My answer is very appropriate. A Sanda would still be as we know it, and Sambo and Kickboxing confirm this. Sanda would have appeared anyway, just instead of Muay Thai there could have been contact with Western Kickboxing. As I said, in the ring, most martial arts become similar to each other.
@@FightCommentary Post link? Also do you read or had those old Black Belt Magazines from the 60/70/80. It had alots of old stories and of course Bruce Lee ass kissing and Ninjas tales And there was also a similar story as this video and why those mainlanders created Sanda
I like that the word Sanda means "free fighting." In my personal opinion, it means you can incorporate whatever techniques from any style, whether it's Kung Fu, Boxing, Karate, Taekwondo, or Muay Thai. I'm a Sanda practitioner myself, but I've been incorporating Muay Thai and Karate moves into my craft.
It's a shame that Sanda isn’t popular. My Sifu decided to incorporate Muay Thai into our Sanda classes in order to keep up the times and to get more people to join.
I personally prefer the admittedly less popular sport of Lei Tai, as it removes a lot of the restrictions present in Sanda. It'd be great to see someone do a breakdown of that.
