Cynicism Is The Left's Greatest Enemy | Ash Sarkar Meets Billy Bragg | Downstream 

I'm watching intently here in the states. As a longtime union member, the resurgence of union activism gives me heart. Working people are fed up with crumbs from the jet setters.

Super di duper, enjoyed chilling and listening in to this chat. So nice to be able to nod along in agreement pretty much most of the time and feel pleasantly in tune with two solid, funny warm and sane conversationalists. Thanks Novara.

Great interview - a true reminder of the importance of caring for each other and working towards a fairer more inclusive world.

I remember as a young kid in a tent in Glastonbury festival there was a piano and I was playing it and billy Bragg came up and told me I was good lol

Excellent, so many great interviews recently; in addition to the regular content! Great Work Ash & Novara! Billy Bragg's comments made me well up a couple times tbh, legend, this has to be the way forward :) x

I find it ironic that most flag-shaggers tend to fascism rather than patriotism. A true patriot wants to improve society and make the country work for everyone, or at least for the majority. Check out the patriotic millionaires, who believe they should contribute more in taxation. As Chomsky explained, change is rarely gifted from above; it comes through struggle from below. Kudos to Novara. Please keep up your good work.

Lenin urged the German social democrats to oppose the war and fight the class enemy at home, but the German social democrats voted for war credits and the British socialists enthusiastically backed the war. Both were following a patriotic socialist model instead of international solidarity and class struggle across national borders.

working class doesn't automatically mean fascist. A lot of people i worked with over the years were socialist. Billy does give voice to that part of the population.

How true about the power of music. For myself, now in my mid seventies, it was the sixties blues boom that took me away from the typically white English views that I had been brought up with through the forties and fifties. I suppose it really started with the rise of trad jazz through skiffle, folk and rock n' roll. When you look at the history of where modern music comes from you see the connections and colour becomes somehow insignificant as far as the music goes but while still recognising the friction from which much of the blues comes from. Just why this music resonated with a white kid from a small Lancashire market town I've no idea, but it did and I'm thankful for it.

The workers in Qatar were treated appallingly.

None of the things he wants to be proud of require patriotism or benefit from being tethered to an imaginary “space we call England”. It’s utterly incoherent to define the country as simply the ‘geographical space called England and everything that happens in that space’, and then treat it as a discrete agent that can ‘do something positive’ or ‘do something negative’ that we can choose to be proud or ashamed of according to the “values the country is supposed to have”. You can’t have it both ways - just like you can’t argue for an inclusive definition of English identity while insisting that the execution of Charles I or an agreement between King and Barons signed in 1215 is “who we are". You are not ‘taking territory’ away from the right with this stuff, you are ceding it to them! Accepting one of their most effective reactionary innovations as a positive and necessary component of identity. It’s one thing to love the people, language, landscape and culture we grew up with, but as Ursula Le Guinn asked, “what is the sense of giving a boundary to all that, of giving a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply?”

Great interview thanks for uploading it!

Are you going to add captions for deaf and hard of hearing? Love Novara Media.

I fully acknowledge that males are more likely to commit violence and most especially serious instances of violence and sexual violence. But I honestly believe that the solution is to degender the issue and address violence from a child development perspective. Addressing violence in the home and in schools and our communities I believe will have the biggest net gain. Children learn violence at home, and that's parents, not just Father's. Educating parents out of passing on generational trauma is the best solution in my view.

You don't want nationalism though, because nationalism is just way too close to fascism. In fact, you don't want idealism of any kind. Practical & flexible people with a heart for serving the community is what you really need in government.

Maybe the festival of brexit should be called the museum of England.

So I'm Palestinian, I've got no real skin in this, but I think that Ewan Maccoll's England should not be left in captivity. Englishness, currently haunted by the right, could and should be redeemed without enforced self-flagellation. All should have a place in the struggle against those who have not just destroyed our worlds, but have used us to destroy each other. It is through good organization that cultural variations and identities can be maintained while united in action with purpose.

I get where he's coming from, only given our global crisis and fragmentary world, this is just giving into tribalism at a time when we need to build common global connections to tackle global capitalism and climate change

Fuckin hell, this was a great interview. My goal is to be like Billy Bragg when I'm his age. How can we all continue to grow and learn as we get older?

Aww I've yet to hear him sing Power in a union!! Love this fella

More of this please - NM - top bloke Billy !

I'll get round to actually watching this, but the attitude at least presented in the title always unsettles me as an anarchist, there's nothing good about "patriotism".

Thoroughly decent guy

Has Billy still got his holiday home in Dorset?

Sorry Billy, we didn't have a revolution. We had a civil war fought between the rich commoners and the aristocracy. The issues involved were more tied up in theology than the rights of the people and what followed was not a republic but a theocratic dictatorship, which is why the English returned toa monarchy; it was the only alternative they knew at the time. We did other nations a favour by showing the that you can cut the head off a king without incurring god's wrath, but we didn't benefit at all from the civil wars. Rule was simply transferred to our archaically run and undemocratic first-past-the-post elected Parliament, which has represented only the rich for the majority of its existence, except possibly the late 50s-early 60s.

My favorite singer and my favorite communist. It's a dream come true.

How wonderful. What beautiful people. But so much that makes me feel uncomfortable. Thank you for your challenge. Why should I feel so uncomfortable with that damned red

As someone from England who isn’t “ethnically English”, some people will not grant me the usage of the term English and say that I’m British. But that leaves me in a weird place as the 🇬🇧 union obviously isn’t working and will likely fall apart in the coming decades. As someone who advocates for 🇮🇪 unification and 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿/ 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Independence and I don’t know where I stand 🤷‍♂️

Good work with Rock Against Racism

Did he watch The Labour Files?

We need common sence.

Ideology let's keep it simple yes Karl Marx could not arsed working so decides to say this the utopia everybody equal and gets the same but I can't be arsed working so I'm covered by people who do work they will look after me . Just like now . But his ideology has cost millions of lives doesn't work Billy by the way got your first 3 CDs workers play time etc fantastic great music but political not for me

So national socialism?

I prefer leftwing internationalism.

They advertised in the West Indies, begging for workers

Agree about your comments on patriotism. I've grown to hate the sight of the flag as I now associate it with the Tories and Brexit.

So wait, the thumbnail says "we need left wing patriotism", but the video opens with Billy Bragg saying Starmer will never outflank the Tories in terms of flag-waving. What even is the point?

UK needs to be lke America, a place where people from all over the world come and call ther own

Great interview. I've always been a fan of Billy. He talks about progressive patriotism. I saw a tangible example of Billy's patriotism at this year's Cambridge Folk Festival. He was on stage as England Women's Football team became European Champions. He was very emotional and got the whole crowd to sing 'Jeusalem' A memorable moment. He grew up in Barking. I was born in Barking. He's a West Ham United fan, so am I . He spoke of Ford's Dagenham factory. My dad worked there for a time so did some of our neighbours. Our first home as a married couple was in nearby Dagenham. Long live Billy Bragg the Bard of Barking.

Given Billy Bragg is a well-known misogynist, it would be interesting to see him being interviewed about his opposition to women's rights. Hopefully Novara Media can organise this some time.

I love this interview it's so friendly human caring and genuine

Real Left should come together to deliver positives in working class communities, let people know what we are about . Bit like Black Panthers did for poor communities in US.

I too was given the same job prospects in my careers advice at secondary school-Army, Navy, RAF, or Tesco. The ruling classes really do see you as fodder. I bet at the private schools it would be a totally different careers advice. My friend from public boarding school, told me, that their teachers/tutors constantly informed them, you are the future leaders, you will be running this country. So it reveals the psychology behind the system we live under

As a Scottish fan of civic nationalism, I love this chat. I WANT to see England celebrating and taking back control over their identity. Progressive Patriot is a perfect description.

What about internationalism. Inequalities and problems are world wide not nation wide

Billy Bragg looking very like Jeremy Corbin

A wonderful conversation really enjoyed this one .as I do listening to all the contributing members .although the channel is left wing I find it probably the only channel that gives an honest report on current affairs.well done ash n Billy , lovely

He looks like Jeremy Corbyn 😜 That's not an insult by the way 👍

The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. Arthur Schopenhauer

Who is the greater patriot? The one who insists that everything is perfect and must remain just so, sings the anthem, attends the right functions and knows the right people? Or is it the one who sees the wood in the trees, and knows where best to use that wood to heat the frozen, home the homeless, shore up the broken and rebuild the ruins?

The full saying is "My country right or wrong, if right, kept right, if wrong, made right". So the idea that you can love your country but see room for improvement has been around for a long while...

Really loved this video. Maybe it’s Billy’s East London accent, maybe it’s the mixture of music and politics. Ash is such a vibrant interviewer too

Down with the monarchy

Great video and I very much respect Billy Bragg, but I would have to caution from history, that in Britain if you mix the left with British nationalism you often end up with fascism. Whether it is Oswald Moseley under British nationalism, in the 1930s moving from the left-wing Labour Party to the British Union of Fascists (BUF), right through to Anne Marie Waters also moving under British nationalism from the Labour Party in 2010, to the more right-wing UKIP in 2014, and ending up in the extreme-right For Britain in 2017, British nationalism has always pulled things towards the far-right. From history, ever since the time of the British Empire, British nationalism has always had problems with racism and neo-colonialism inseparably as part of its DNA. Historically the left has always been internationalist rather than nationalist, and its slogan has always been “workers of THE WORLD unite” NOT “only for British workers”, which is where British nationalism leads. For the left to be playing around with British nationalism as a means of appealing to the populist side of the electorate, is extremely dangerous both for the genuine left, and also minority groups in Britain.

Ironic that BB says Starmer is never gonna be able to outflank the right...and then in next breath proposes a policy to try to out flank the right, that would get Blue Labour nodding with approval

Novara media, what a joke, are you RF in disguise

Come,Come!! Being Cynical is so British!😂😂

Left Patriotism for me is about The People, and the Land. I want those who live and work here to thrive, and be healthy and happy. To want the best for your countrymen and women, and for those who chose to settle here and contribute is extremely patriotic in my view. And to respect the landmass itself, meaning the environment must support life, and be beautiful where possible. Other ideas, and the culture itself has always been, and will always be in flux, so abstract ideas about Nation aren't really relevant to achieving the objectives of health and happiness; Quite often they seem to be obstacles. The indignity of living under four decades of Conservatism is as far from real patriotism as can be. I'm not proud of that, but I'm proud of our ability to endure, and have faith we are rising to the occasion. We've always been greater than plastic union flag waving.

Somebody beeds to tell Starmer the union flag waving may look good in the Red Wall but he us going to live Scotland with it.

Billy Bragg.....what a legend. He is brilliant, so well balanced and considered. Well done Ash and Novara media for this great work.

Excellent interview with Ash and Billy..

patriotism is not about flags or even fellow citizens. It is about responsibility to ensure that the legally designated resources under the sovereign control of the elected government are distributed fairly for the benefit of the constituents.

Very wealthy socialist..a product of capitalism who gave it all up for...oh..um...er...

Great interview with Billy Bragg. Says it as it is. I take heart from what he says. Please Novara Media. More interviews like this.

This is one of the most brilliant interviews I have ever seen. Hats off. Two brilliant people, asking fascinating questions and original takes!

What an amazing interview. Thank you Novara for introducing me to this living legend. Billy, I’ve discovered your music and your career through this interview. You are a phenomenal musician and perhaps even better progressive patriot. Thank you.

Billy Bragg was one of my heros in tne 80s but lost my respect for him when Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour party. Bragg likes to talk the talk but couldn't walk the walk. Weak as a Typhoo tea bag.

Great debate, Billy comes across as really warm, thoughtful and thought-provoking!

If it’s got a Jack put it back!

1:07:00 The French Empire wasn't so much cleared away as absorbed. I suppose it's a consequence of them having a proper revolution, with universal suffrage, or at least a sexist idea of it. We kept our home grown us & them, so if you were a colonial native your status was already determined as on the them scale.

I really liked this, Ash, it was stimulating, full of values and you got another follower lol xxx. I wonder what Billy would have to say about Elgar...

Billy Bragg the most tedious boring performer on the planet.

Could listen to Billy forever. A just man, moral paragon and intuitively right and instructive on so many things.

We need a patriotism which is OUR kind of patriotism, one where kids don't go to school hungry and old folk don't freeze to death in their homes. And are we really the cynical ones? The cynicism behind the Right's manipulation of the British electorate to "get Brexit done" was jaw-dropping.

Re the description: It's considerably longer than a 30-year career! I saw him on the pyramid stage at Glastonbury 38 years ago, and he was already pretty established then.

Ash check out 'Mae hen wlad fy nhadau', the Welsh national anthem. Its all what youre talking about and more, pride for the past the future and understanding the people and cultural heritage. A little less on the guillotine side as 'Les Marseillaise'

Ash is right about what England is... The little man in the Wizard Of Oz... The English are learning that they are one little part of an island in the North Atlantic...

1:12:00 Billy is of my generation, give or take. You can see, even in this conversation, how strongly WW2 is still a formative part of identity. We grew up with the war films, the comics, re-enacting the Battle of Britain in our playgrounds. I don't think you can do that without it getting in to your (boomer) psyche - insular, independent, superior, belligerent. It's ironic, as so many of our parents' (the Queen's) generation lived the reality: serving in Europe & beyond or living alongside Americans & Canadians & others flying bombers & preparing for D Day.

This conversation should be required viewing in the UK.

I wonder has Billy read the book “Despised, why the modern left loathes the working class” by fellow Barking and Dagenham man, and blue Labour activist, Paul Embery.

One of the few interviews where the interviewer is as interesting as the subject and has opinions and thoughts that should be heard. Billy clearly enjoys that because he's never been the big I Am looking for interviews where he can sell himself. Thanks Ash.

Great interview. This is a topic that lefties and liberals cannot ignore. Bragg's approach may or may not be the right way to go about dealing with questions of country, identity, place & people but i applaud the fact that he's actively engaged with those questions and is not willing to cede the grounds of discourse to the right.

Great interview! I'm a couple of years younger than Billy so the comment about us grey haired former radicals especially hit home!

Thank you for discussing the Trans issue, which should as you say led by Trans and non-binary people, not by a straight well known children's author!

Bragg is so left wing he's literally morphed into Jeremy Corbyn.

Many on the Right will say that Ash, whose family comes from Bengal (India/Bangladesh, “the jewel of the British empire”) cannot call herself English/British. Yet those same people have no issue accepting me as a Brit - who’s family is mainly from Poland, Italy and Ireland. That double standard exists purely because I’m white and she’s a POC. Historically she has much more of a right to term the English/British!

Good old Billy, man of the people, who lives in a massive secluded mansion by the sea in the most conservative county in England.

25:03 "My favourite genre of music is heavy metal; bands like Saxon, Motorhead, Venom and Diamond Head" ...Brilliant! Oh wait, that was my fantasy. *shrivel

Billy Bragg is so right. He speaks truth which we all see but are not supposed to speak. One problem is that there are many human qualities which belong to all of us, which the political right has commandeered for itself and misused. Qualities such as enterprise. The cynical aspect of the political left can then dismiss these qualities themselves, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, instead of reclaiming them for our own use and empowerment.

Basically Bragg is promulgating a liberal position not a left wing position. Liberal politics whether in UK or US is part and parcel of the state and status quo. Left politics in UK and US is based on solidarity and internationalism .

Left wing patriot here - want my country to be out from under English rule

billy brag the property developer and slum landord

If you mean being proud of a country that helps all people and not just the mega wealthy. Yeh i can get patriotic about that.

What's "GC movement"?

What if your a anarchist 🤷🏻‍♂️

Oh shit that’s my grandma’s neighbor

🤠💜

All round has been.

❤

Being left wing is patriotism