Today's Thought Experiment: If O'Brien lost his EJ7 interlock (the gubbins needed to access critical infrastructure) several hours prior to them being in Odo's office, who opened the panel for Neela?
I've said it many times but it's worth repeating: heroes are all well and good, but it's a truly excellent bastard that really makes a story. She's a absolutely delightful arsehole in this.
@@Unlimited_Lives she’llbe back many time. I think the exec producers realized how lucky they were with Flextcher on board. She could carryi an entire season.
@@dellytancyl524 Yep, first appearance. Winn is such a *presence* we pretty much all remember her being around more than she actually was. The first time I found out how few episodes she's actually in, I about fell out of my chair.
Vedek Sydney Opera House for the Winn! These episodes are over 30 years old, but I'm sad to say some of the issues they dealt with feel even more relevant these days. Taking a stand against religious influence on the school curriculum... And succeeding? Now *that* is science fiction!
this channel need more subs. your breakdown of each show so far has been hurtful, snide, and snarky; but always fair and honest and i thank you for that. we need to leave more comments and engage with the like and share stuff to boost his numbers everyone! lets do eeet! lol great video as always
Ah my favorite episode of the first season. Such a good introduction to Vedek (Soon Kai) Winn Honestly I think she is far and away the better villain for the show than Dukat is. Mainly because the show dosent spend three seasons saying “No wait shes not that bad, honest”, they just show her as the political weasel she is and the performance is just perfect. Her actress captures that condescending “I am smarter than you” attitude and smug back handed compliments she gives out perfectly
Well, I think it has to do with the fact that she actually is the true antagonist to Sisko's Emissary during seasons 1-4. she makes her first appearance in the season 1 finale. She's a central figure during the events of the siege in season 2, and Vedek Bariel's demotion leading to her ascent as the new Kai and she tries to grab full control of Bajor by also becoming first minister. also in season 3 she takes full credit for the Cardassian peace treaty with Bajor that Bariel negotiates. Then she backs the fake emissary over Sisko, during all that time, Dukat is mostly a secondary character with interesting anecdotes. Neither she nor Dukat fully transform into true villains until season 5 where Dukat transforms as the new leader of Cardassia giving him more clout.
@@thegreenmanofnorwichYeah, one of my favorite Winn moments is her telling Kira what Winn went through in the Occupation, because she's a so much better character for being horrible *and* having genuinely risked her skin serving as a Bajoran religious leader during the Occupation. (My total favorite Winn moment is probably her absolutely destroying Weyoun with one line and a smile in "In the Cards", and it's not even that a harsh line. It's all on Louise Fletcher's delivery.)
As a card carrying member of the church of the Decepticons, I take umbrage with your statemet regarding Megatron. He died for your lack of ambition, only to return as Galvatron, after all.
Winn was only in 14 episodes. *14*. The degree to which she dominates the screen makes it feel like so much more, it's incredible. Louise Fletcher was evidently hand-picked for the role, offered it directly, and whoever came up with that idea deserves a medal. She's perfect. She actually had this great philosophy coloring the performance, that since Winn thinks she's the conduit for the will of her gods, whenever she says "Walk with the Prophets" or "the will of the Prophets" what she's actually saying is "obey me".
“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.” - Steven Weinberg
Ah the introductin of my favourite space Karen 😂 she is my favourite trek antagonist by a mile. The sanctimonious smug superiority is so very hateable and so well done
Just gave you a quick shout out on my birthday livestream. Love your work and you've brought me many a laugh and deep thought over the last year, thanks 💚🎈💚 You are appreciated
@Unlimited_Lives lol thank you very much. I do go live on occasion. I will do more now that I'm not working. I'm going to pursue my side hustle. I intend to build and sell fairy houses 🧚♂️🏡🧚♀️
Ooh, I imagine that has a fair bit of crossover with miniature dioramas and I've an interest in that. Plan on making any videos or livestreaming your work? People like to watch craft stuff¹. ¹I mean me. I like to watch craft stuff. I am people.
@Unlimited_Lives Oooo, 🤔 possibly when I get a bit of skill so I don't embarrass myself lol Just getting started so I'm still learning and quite trepidations. But it's a great idea 💡 thanks
@@Unlimited_Lives if the Enterprise can become a transformer (Fortress Tiberius) so they can defeat Klingons allied with Megatron, anything can happen. (Transformers x Star Trek by IDW Is a great campy read.)
Read that one, loved it, if only to see Kirk in that giant (to him) chair. Then again, the whole Terrain Empire: Current events would show support for a force that actually got something done. Why settle for a LESSER evil?
Since you're hinting at developments in future episodes, I'm surprised you didn't wonder whether Keiko's teasing Miles about Neela might indicate an … interest in him having fun times with cute girls with weird noses.
@@gingergrant1057 Spoiler ahead… A L I G R E A T In a later season, Kira will become the gestational mother for the O'Briens' baby. Not only will she and Miles want to hump one another during this time, with Keiko all but giving them the go-ahead without uttering the words, but Miles and Kira's boyfriend act like romantic rivals during the birth:
@@gingergrant1057 It's a fandom nickname referring to the many times they give the O'Briens +1 potential, which the show itself acknowledges twice, with the Kira pregnancy arc and with Julian and Miles's friendship, and has quite a few other odds and ends moments like this episode, or that time Tracy Scoggins thought they were flirting. (Child of 90s genre tv that I am, I can always recognize Scoggins.) Mostly it exists for jokes, what-if scenarios, and shippers.
Thank you for your excellent deep dive. I almost regret not watching the show when it first aired on TV. I had lost touch with my old friends at the time (Career, wife, babies, dogs, cats, house move... the usual stuff that gets in the way of life), so I had no one to prompt me to follow the show. Having bored everyone with this trivia, my question is: "Where are all the Trek fans? I thought they would be all over your reviews. Either to praise you for your hard work, or to moan about your style of delivery. (No one is ever satisfied). Don't the fans feed on facts, trivia and analysis? I will close by saying; Great show, lots of fun. I love it. You deserve a much larger audience of admiring fans. Best Wishes.
More viewers would be grand, sure, but I'm *VERY* lucky with the people here. Patreon support is punching far, far above its weight given the size of the channel, and that's due to the absolutely delightful crowd we've already got.
its Vedek Ratchet for now. we havent gotten to the kai part yet lol. she is an amazing actor. well ployed in all roles she's been in from what ive seen. same with the guy who plays wayun and 34 other chrs across the realm of star trek.
The episode capping season 1 with a belter; you can see why Wynn would be a frequent antagonist in future seasons. I also love that Kira see's through Wynn's bullshit by the end of the episode and has to rethink her view of her religion: if she can agree with someone so evil, is she wrong in her beliefs? I do find it interesting how downplayed Sisko's role as the Emissary is even at this stage of things.
In part at Sisko's choice -- I really enjoy his arc on that topic, watching him go from "Yeah, Emissary of the Prophets, sure, great, I guess, yay," to just full-on embracing the role, performing marriages, spitting out prophecies, the works. It's a *journey*.
@@KassFireborn true, Sisko did downplay it even in this situation - partly because of starfleet disapproval in the use of his supposed divine connection to influence the internal matters of Bajor.
@@dm121984 Starfleet really could use protocols for when a local religion won't stop interfering with *you*. You can say "Starfleet officers don't get involved in that kind of thing" as much as you like, but when it turns out the local gods caused your existence, that kinda complicates matters. And this being Star Trek, is not a one time thing, though I think Ben Sisko's the most prominent case.
This is one of those episodes that I have trouble watching because I find Kai Winn that infuriating. I suppose this is applicable to most episodes with Kai Winn. Just the way she says "my child" gets to me.
Woof! Something I would have liked to have seen was more of the ordinary people, have the Bajoran and Federation people in the background be familiar to the viewer. Sadly, as soon as a character who was not main cast had the spot light on them, you knew something was up. This was a good introduction to Vedek Winn, in many ways you could argue, she was a greater protagonist than Gul Dukat.
@@Unlimited_LivesAnd DS9 is better than a lot of the franchise for that! Primmin might have only turned up like... twice? Three times? But that still helped set up later characters -- I recall absolutely deciding Eddington was just gonna be like that, an occasional repeat Starfleet "less important but still relevant" guy.
Kinda weird to see both a special tool needed to open critical maintenance panels, and a shuttle apparently having some sort of security measure in place that required a hacking gizmo to bypass it, both in a single episode, given the extremely well-established precedent that Starfleet has no such security measures, as evidenced by every character who's ever tried to steal a shuttle being able to simply hop in and take off.
One of my biggest complaints with DS9 is that nearly every episode featuring the Bajorans highlights how they aren't ready to be members of the Federation and the only reason they're a space fairing race is because of the Cardigans. It also highlights how Theocratic governments never last very long and make little sense as technologically advanced peoples unless they actually worship technology.
This episode shows why I think DS9 has an advantage over other series of StarTrek. They have ongoing issues that require ongoing stories with repeat players and complex issues that are able to be dug into.
I couldn't wait for the summery on this one. Shame my internet was down for a few hours when I got home. I do like episodes where all of the cast have something to do. And it's interesting after everything the Bajorans have been through and now they're turning on each other. I guess bastards are bastards no matter who they are nor where they come from.
Yes, this was the episode where I dropped DS9 permanently and never came back. If the harmless religious kook (Kai Opaka) was exiled after a single appearance but the evil religious kook wasn't even defeated, let alone killed off....? That type of aggravation I don't need in my SF entertainment. O'Brien was the only character I found even halfway tolerable, and that wasn't enough for me.
Of course, Galileo was more being persecuted by the then scientific consensus for challenging the Ptolemic Model of the universe, which feared that he was putting their profitable side gigs as astrologers in jeopardy. The Copernican heliocentric model also was bad at predicting planetary motion. Mostly, Galileo had discovered that some important premises of the Ptolemiic Model were in error but did not have a workable model to replace it. He also had to be a jerk about it, questioning the validity of some of Aristotle's philosophy that the Church accepted as dogma, jumping to unjustified conclusions. The Church hierarchy was pained at getting involved since Galileo was friends with the Pope.
Megatron wouldn't have voted for me. Back in the 1980s, I broke mine right after taking him out of the box. New kids should Google what that old toy looked like. He was rough.
part of me wants to say this episode is better than Duet... not sure how unpopular of an opinion that would be. i absolutely love Duet, but this episode definitely gives it a run for its money. both are truly DS9 S1 at it's peak. and it's kind of scary to think it only gets _even better_ from here.
Never got into DS9, but I always find Trek refreshing when it gets out of its comfort zone and does stuff it's not handled before. Having only ever seen TNG, Voyager, nu Trek and bits of DS9, I don't think I ever saw them ever do much about religion. I suppose when you get into space and meet actual aliens, that tends to throw organised religion out the window. Though saying that, Babylon 5 didn't have a problem doing that.
The advantage to the prophets actually existing (alien or diety) is that Sisko can always direct people to take it up with them directly. Of course I don't think the prophets personal disaproval would have done anything to sway someone so self serving in this instance anyway.
When did the Bajorans actually start to acknowledge The Sisko as the Emissary seriously? A conservative Vedic plotting against The Sisko on his own station seems like a big risk if all your care about is gaining power.
There was a commercial for Transformers Prime where Megatron said he was a fan of Donald Trump so I think we can safely assume his voting record more-so than God's. Also my new theory given this episode and later ones is that Keiko wants an open/poly relationship and keeps trying to give Miles signs that he should go after coworkers.
It's worth bearing in mind that the Bajoran religion is based on Gods that really exist, because they can enter the Wormhole (Celestial Temple) and speak to them. However, their pronouncements are decidedly gnomic and it's by no means clear that they are interested in Bajor (they did allow the Cardassian occupation, after all) and they definitely have their own agenda (I won't elaborate as it would be a spoiler for future episodes).
I always felt like the religion aspect of DS9 fell a bit short for the simple reason that Bajoran religion has basically been proven factually correct. Like, we know the prophets are completely real, it almost seems sillier to insist on calling them "wormhole aliens" just because you don't personally worship them as gods. If anything it's a bit immersion breaking, because you can tell a lot of these plots are meant to reflect real-world conflicts related to religion but don't account for this massive difference. It also feels like a missed opportunity; it would be interesting to examine how people would react to having proof that their gods are real, and the ability to directly communicate with them.
I'm a pretty religious person too which has made me a bit nervous to comment here. Yet I do think Winn is really effective until maybe the last season. A great deal of this is down to the late Louise Fletcher being a great actress. However I think they also allow for some complexities to her that "fanatic religious" characters sometimes lack.
@@ThomasReeves-s7u she was an amazing actress, but even from this introduction, the character is a bad, manipulative leader. i have seen leaders like that IRL (not the physical violence, but emotional), i left that group. i think her behavior is clear from this early episode that her religion is about her having power, not the planetary faith. i heard she relished playing such a twisted person, it is a terrific roll, you are correct that most faith in fantasy is so flat. It's often so senseless, that our fellow nerds think were missing something, rather than have an extra dimention
@@gerrimilner9448 Yeah and to be fair I do have some problems with the Bajoran religion itself. We rarely if ever get a sense of what its moral philosophy is like. Mostly we just get ritual and prophecy, which usually real-world religions have other elements. And I'd agree with others their gods being proved to exist by science, and indeed be able to know all time, makes them rather unlike any real world religion. In a way I was surprised we never heard more of humans wanting to convert to it because despite their secularism in TNG humans seemed eager to join in any alien religious ritual they could even if they didn't remotely understand it.
You know what I find a bit weak about this episode? The fact that the things that Vedec Sin wanted to be taught were objectively right and factual. I mean the two things she wanted (as far as I remember) were that the Wormhole and the entities living within are revered as the Celestial Temple and the Prophets. I mean the Wormhole is owned by the Bajorens and thus they should have the right to name it, so Keiko refusing to call it as such is rude at best and disrespectful at worst. Secondly, the Wormhole aliens outright told the crew that they were the Prophets the Bajores worship, so Kako refusing to rever to them as what they call themselves is again rude at best and disrespectful at worst. I mean the episode still works by and large, but Keiko was outright in the wrong, dismissing objective facts and the local culture out of, what can only be called, prejudices against religion in general.
She is a scientist (Well botanist) and coming at it from her own upbringing. She is there to teach *what is known* , not what a religion says. For most of the time, the Federation does not refer to them as the Prophets, so she will not. By trying to appease religious nutters, we end up with religious groups that do bad things (without naming names, consider the beginning of this century as an example) or with the 'christians' in America voting for and supporting some really vile stuff. Yes, a get out clause might have been "I will teach what we *know*. If you want the religious bit, the temple is across the Promenade." But extremists are extremists and that would not satisfy them.
I see what you're saying, and if no third party was involved I'd agree it would be a Bajoran cultural matter, but the existence of the aliens complicates matters significantly: Gotta take issue with saying the wormhole is owned by the Bajorans as it's artificially created by the entities living inside it. If anybody owns it, it's them. That one end currently occupies Bajoran space doesn't automatically grant them bagsy rights to the whole thing. The local council doesn't own your house just because your door opens onto their pavement. I've been looking for a reference of where the aliens refer to themselves specifically as Prophets, but couldn't locate one. It's certainly not mentioned in the pilot, which is the only direct contact we've had thus far. Indeed, the fact they considered "corporeal entities" like Sisko to not be the lifeforms they were attempting to contact with their devices (which they do not refer to as Orbs) suggests the whole thing is unintentional. Based on the data available to this point in the show, I'd argue Keiko's approach was the most factually accurate. Was that the most diplomatic? No, and in her situation I'd have probably considered pairing the factual with a follow-up cultural segment saying what the local populace believes.
@@Mecharnie_Dobbs Yes, but that wasn’t what happened. Keiko only called it the Wormhole and when Wedek sin asked that the Wormhole be referred to by the name the Bajoren gave it, because it is in their territory and she is teaching their children, Keiko through a fit as if she had a stronger right to name the thing than the people in whose territory it is located.
@@ptonpc I’m aware of that and that’s why I said the premise still works, but you have to admit it’s still weird how they handled that. I mean the entire comparison between the Bajoran religion and real religion is weakened by the fact that the Bajorens have proven their religion to be true, as in outright and scientifically true. There are entities referring to themselves as the Prophets that confirmed that they were the ones that taught the Bajorens a bunch of stuff and sent them accurate visions of the future. We know that those prophets live outside the linear flow of time, so that proves that their future sight abilities they claim to possess are possible for them. And again, while Vedek Sin’s aims were to start a religious war to further her political aspirations, Keiko’s reaction to her very reasonable request of “please call the landmark by its actual name” and “please refer to the people group calling themselves the Prophets by their name rather than ‘the Wormhole aliens’” is TNG level of federation entitlement. That shifts the narrative from “teacher gets prosecuted by religious fanatics for teaching facts in school” to “temporary resident and teacher gets prosecuted by religious fanatics for refusing to respect the local culture and refuses to address the religious patrons of the locals by their chosen name. Admitly, that would have also been good writing if the writers addressed that Keiko doing these things was wrong. I mean the Bajoren’s were subject to an occupation by an outside invader that gleefully trampled over their culture not a year ago, so I can understand the Bajores cracking down on someone so bluntly attacking their culture because the terminology is religious in nature.
On a different note, I know it would make writing drama a bit harder but if a group has transporter technology they absolutely have the technological capacity to make a 100% effective lie detector. Even our existing lie detectors have been studied and found to be ~80% accurate, likely exactly why they aren't admissable in court.
Keiko was wrong! She refused to teach bajoran history as they know it, and only federation are right! Winn is a devout to her faith and anyone disagree with her she'll hate forever
@@Unlimited_Lives which was part of the profits plan for her, so she could go down the path towards the Kosst Amojan and the final battle between good and evil!
I wouldn't go that far, but I think at the time I did feel like Keiko was being a bit patronizing to their beliefs. Especially when you consider it's a Bajoran station something that, to be honest, I don't think I thought as much about when I watched it the first time. I mean I don't think she's intending to be patronizing, I think humans have just been shown to live in a world where some kind of secular humanism (with some Eastern spirituality as I think her wedding dress was Shinto or Buddhist in design) is the norm. And she's a botanist not an anthropologist so religion probably just isn't something she's used to dealing with except as "that thing some do which I don't really understand." (That said her wedding episode "Data's Day" did indicate Hindus still exist. And more oddly "Sub Rosa", a mostly terrible episode, did imply human Christians even still exist on some colonies.)
