See past Sunday Musings: SundayMusings.org Several early church leaders believed that Jesus was married - to multiple women - and children as well. Was this speculative opinion or is there any scriptural evidence for these claims?
I really liked The Kingdom and the Crown! It helped me understand the culture and political climate of Jesus’ time and brought Jesus to life for me. Thanks for sharing! I really enjoy your musings every week!
Just loved those books. Actually when I first find out about the church and started going I couldn't get into reading the scriptures. So a member gave me Lund's book 1 of The Work And The Glory. It helped me too get to know Joseph and then encouraged me to start reading my scriptures. So eventually I gained a testimony and got baptized. Like is a good writer. But my faves are The Kingdom and The Crown series. I want to read them again. But I've got to track down one book. I lent it out and it has not returned. Another couple at church have me a sub to the Ensign. I felt the spirit did strong reading nite both the Ensign and then the scriptures.
Always enjoy you POV ... especially when you talk about subjects a lot of LDS members don't want to discuss or are very rigid about such as polygamy and Word of Wisdom...which to this day is my favorite musing ..Happy Birthday 🎉
I’m 85 and converted to the church under David O McKay. When I was 18 and attending a Methodist girls school, we had a wonderful professor who really opened my eyes to the scriptures that I was already very familiar with. He taught us about the Dead Sea Scrolls and what was in them. One of the things I learned was that Jesus Christ had been married to all 3 women and it was one of the reasons He was crucified. I had that discussion with others who thought He had to have been married as an example. It makes sense to me if He was. I was very intrigued by Dan Browns book and a little surprised at the seemingly adamant denial by the church spokesperson. I wondered at the time why they would get so upset at a book of fiction if there was nothing to it. 🤷🏻. There’s so much none of us know. Eternity is a long time to learn from one short mortal experience. I appreciate your comments. Thank you
Wow! Those stories about early church leaders teaching about Jesus practicing polygamy and having children of whom they were direct descendants blows my mind, and made me chuckle more than once. It's a perfect example of how delusional people may become when they try looking beyond the mark.
Happy Birthday, Conner! Very interesting musing. I personally believe that the biggest disconnect from knowing in more detail the life of our Savior is due to the Deuteronomists and their practice of eliminating or altering records from ancient texts. Mary Magdalene was a very righteous woman, a righteous woman from the seventh level of heaven, the very place the Savior himself is from. Instead, she is portrayed as a prostitute who had seven devils cast out of her. There were literally hundreds of other writings about women and even writings by women that were also eliminated. This was all very intentional. There is an amazing book written about Mary Magdalene from her own perspective that is very valuable in understanding who she truly is. The Gospel of the Beloved Companion. When we study accurate information, it’s very easy to see that Mary Magdalene was the only wife of the Savior. Some parts and pieces that I use to help understand this area of our Saviors life is that Mary Magdalene was with Jesus everywhere he went, as a wife would truly be. She was with him as he preached, she financed his mission, she participated in many of the things he did. Going back to the wedding, where Jesus turned water into wine, it’s important to understand that the groom always provided the wine at his own wedding. Jesus wasn’t just helping out a friend and saving him a trip to the store when he performed this miracle. Jesus was at his own wedding, which apparently was a heavily attended celebration, they ran out of wine and he blessed an amount of water that was available and turned it into needed wine for the celebration. Staying true to Jewish custom the Groom provided wine for his own wedding. I am so glad you understand that polygamy is not Gods way, never has been, and never will be. And I am also very glad that you understand Section 132 to being a counterfeit or fraudulent document. it’s the only section without a written manuscript to go along with it. It’s been proven to be written by Brigham Young and not Joseph Smith. Like you said, it completely contradicts other places in God’s word, and completely contradicts, Joseph Smith true standing on plural marriage. Joseph fought Brigham Young heavily at times, mainly regarding slavery and plural marriage. Joseph and Hyrum were so much against Brigham Young’s practice and acceptance of polygamy that it eventually got them killed. Rob Fotheringham, Whitney Horning and Michelle Stone have all brought much light to this very important subject. Joseph was not the first LDS polygamist, Brigham Young was. In fact, Joseph was never even a polygamist at all. He was a very righteous man, a true prophet of God, a true prophet, Seer, and revelator. Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball, best friends since their youth, were very squirly indeed. They were actually practicing plural marriage secretly in the mid-1830s. It’s very obvious why Joseph and Hyrum were murdered. Plural marriage exploded within just a few weeks after June 27, 1844. It’s also important to understand specifically what the new and everlasting covenant actually is. It was Brigham Young that added “of marriage“ on the end of that. It’s just the new and everlasting covenant period, which has nothing to do with marriage, and everything to do with our Savior. Anyway, happy birthday and thank you so much for sharing so much great information with us. PS - I’ve got an idea for one of your future musings. Understanding how important the Book of Mormon is, and that it was written specifically for us, in our day, and understanding that Isaiah, Nephi and Moroni literally saw our day and are speaking directly to us to help us in our preparation‘s for the Second Coming, can you do a musing on 2 Nephi 28, Mormon 8 and Ether 12 in true Conner Boyak fashion? 99.99% of the members of the church today seem to believe that we are completely on track and that all is well in Zion. Yet the question is asked specifically by a true prophet of God, why have you corrupted the holy church of God? I believe that question is directed specifically to the current church leadership. We know which church he is referring to. So why and how has it been corrupted? One of my favorite scriptures is 3 Nephi 16:10, where the Lord specifically describes the LDS church right now, in our day. It’s so important for us to understand the awful situation that surrounds us. I believe some of us have been blessed with eyes to see and ears to hear, while others prefer to stumble along in the dark, and pretend that all is well. Thank you again for what you do, don’t be embarrassed by this but you are truly one of my heroes.
This subject points out the difficulty of projecting our current ideas onto the past. The basic problem here is that there isn't an iota of revelation on this topic. Yes, Brigham and the polygamists projected polygamy onto Jesus. We project marriage as essential for Jesus because we still believe it is essential for us. We project that because we must be baptized for salvation, and Jesus was (to show the example) that he must have therefore had the same law binding him and us. None of this reasoning is warranted from the evidence we have--which is basically zero on this subject.
Zero? Really? The entire plan and gospel are completely centered in marriage and family. The first commandment given was to procure posterity. No need to project, the principle is literally woven into every aspect of life. To think Jesus wouldn't have experienced those things is preposterous.
In Charleston, South Carolina, there is a church with a beautiful stained glass window showing Mary Magdalene and Christ. In the background is a rabbi. Jesus is placing a ring on Mary magdalene's finger. My personal belief is that they were married. Perhaps this is because I love Mary Magdalene and I'm hopeful it's true and want it to be true .
At 20:00 Orson Pratt is quoting Psalms 45:9 not from the King James but from the earlier Geneva Bible that the pilgrims used.. psalm 45 is a Royal Wedding Psalm and attributed as a prophesy of the future Messiah.
I had a discussion and an individual who mentioned that there was some documentation or tradition that Jesus's family ended up in Whales and Joseph Smith is of Welsh descent. If you read D&C 113 with that framework it makes sense and it implies Joseph Smith was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.
This is an interesting speculation topic, but let's cut to the chase: if Jesus' life was to teach us how to behave, including whether to marry, then He would have had a scribe follow Him around writing, detailing and publishing everything that Jesus did, everyday, all the time. Since Jesus had no such scribe and no contemporary biographer, then we can conclude that "showing us the way" was not Jesus' objective. Jesus did have two objectives: 1) establish the Higher Law, which builds on Moses' Lower Law 2) Atone for "the sins of the World" i.e. pay to Justice the cosmic price of sin, thus initiating the process of proxy forgiveness. He had to be sinless Himself (aka free from blemish) to qualify as an Atoner. Thus, His sinless life was to qualify Him, not to be an example to others ... and certainly not to us 2,000 years in the future. That said, since the Higher Law includes marriage, Jesus' own marriage(s) is presumed. Whether Jesus was married is a non-question. Of course He was married!!!
in Christ's time you couldmt be called a rabbi unless you were married which made you a fully grown adult man basically...which makes sense cause you need to be married and all to start being a man in such a religious calling it title situation. i doubt he had kids cause then we would have heard of them for sure
On my mission I spoke to 2 Catholic priests who told me their histories showed Peter was a polygamist and I believe (memory is a little fuzzy) they said Jesus was married
It is not what is said in the Scriptures but what is not said that proves Jesus was married. The Jewish law at the time of Jesus right thru to today is, In order to preach in a Synagogue you have to be 30 years of age and you have to be married. This is why Jesus did not start his mission until he was 30. If he had not been married, when brought before Pilot and he ask the Priest what has he done? They would have said, He is preaching in the Synagogue and he is not married.
I like to attribute Isaiah 53 to showing us that Jesus would not produce a generation but have seed in his spiritual posterity after his atonement: 8 ...who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: 10...when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
Did Christ ever refer to himself as Rabbi though? Genuine question. He was most definitely a teacher and Rabbi’s were obviously teachers. He can’t help the labels or names that other put upon him.
2 23 24 Good heavens!! I have never heard anything about the D/C 132 info as told here.... No wonder my many readings have ALWAYS left a weird feeling. Any suggestions on where to go for such reference info? AH. The Eliza chapters. That would be a fascinating musing. Eliza was only 6 months older than Emma, so I doubt the age thing got in the way of any purposeful pregnancy. I don't have the references, but have heard stories of reports of Eliza having been molested during the Far West atrocities. The story goes on to at least hint she was injured in some way she could not carry a pregnancy. Then there's the Emma/Eliza and the Nauvoo House stairs thing... Fun fact: until, I believe the 1920s, in all Church publications Eliza was afforded the married name Smith or even Young (as she was married to both.) Then, poof, she's been relegated back to a mysterious spinsterhood and maiden name, Snow. Why? There were a number of women "married" or not, to BY, who lived at the Lion House, yet for some reason, Eliza is recorded to have been married to BY, tour guides have told me, due to the "appearances."
Rabbi wasn't an official title in Christ's time. Rabbis took over things when the temple was destroyed. It could be an informal term though. Therefore he wouldn't be held to rabbinic rules.
If Jesus being married was an important example for us, don't you think it would have been mentioned in scripture? We not only have the Bible, but the Book of Mormon, D&C, and POGP, and none of them say Christ had any wife other than the Church. I know people don't like to hear this, but the Prophets are men, and they make mistakes and are often wrong. That is why 15 Apostles have to agree or it is not doctrine.
These guys cooked up whatever they wanted to be true and attached it to Joseph. Polygamy wasn't the only thing. It's so obvious! When will the church face the music and denounce the "damn fool doctrine" of plural wifery?
Jesus being married fun topic to think about. My gut feeling is that yes he was. I feel that maybe the reason we don't know is the same reason that we don't talk about our mother in heaven.
I have been surprised at the tone of some of the comments. Polygamy was common practice in the Old Testament. King David, King Solomon, Abraham, Jacob, to name just a few. Do we really think Heavenly Father has only one wife? There were 3 women of importance in Christ life and every one knows who they were. The scrolls found are still being deciphered and when we were studying those available in the 50s there were several instances that spoke of Christ gathering with the Apostles and their wives . We know many books were put in and taken back out of the Bible. We’re told the returning tribes will have their own scripture. We know books were sealed by the Lord on purpose. Christ said come follow me and these things I do, ye can do and greater. If we can’t even pay a full tithing, which only a small portion of the members do, how can we walk on water, heal the sick or raise the dead, fight Satan face to face, feed thousands from a few fishes and bread, or know much at all about the totality of who God is. We know so little of our Father God , our Savior Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, or any of the Heavenly Host. I think it’s important to remember Christ encouraged us to seek and find truth, and the Glory of God is intelligence. Putting God in a little box of our understanding doesn’t make sense.
Maybe we shouldn't pick which doctrines to keep and which to throw out based on what we like. Also, I know several people who do research on topics like this, who 100% believe that D&C 132 wasn't created by Joseph Smith, however, many of them still believe in eternal marriage, and speculate that 132 was originally a revelation from Joseph on marriage, however, it was so severely twisted that we can't be completely sure of what it was originally trying to teach us anymore. I feel like I could be swayed either way, to believe in eternal marriage or not, but I certainly don't think that "if an extremely suspicious document contains something I really like, the whole thing has to be true" is a valid argument at all.
@@rowleskidsI agree! Because it’s not speculation. The revelation received on marriage in July of ‘43 was the original Section 101, which was taken out in 1876. This is documented truth, as demonstrated by the fact that we still have the printed versions of D&C from before that time. People that are skeptical of polygamy or Section 132 are not doing so based on preference for doctrine. I, myself had no qualms with polygamy when I realized 132 was a hoax. No one else in the world is expected to just swallow any and all teachings from any source or any claim. Why are pro-monogamists under this double standard? We are allowed (nay, *commanded*) to ask how, when, and why a certain teaching came into existence. If there’s not a good answer, the Lord would call us a fool to believe it.
Do you though? Because Joseph taught eternal marriage and never taught D&C 132. You can’t just arbitrarily and haphazardly couple two doctrines together and claim that one has to be legit because it’s “tied” to the other. YOU produced that tie. Not reality. Not God.
Jesus was tempted in all things, but without sin. There is a different level of temptation after you have had sex with a woman than before. How could Jesus have been tempted to commit adultery, and therefore teach that if you look upon a woman to lust after her you have already committed adultery with her in your heart, if he himself was not married. A man could say. Yes I listed after her, and she was not my wife, but you cannot judge me on this, because you have never had sex. Would they have a point? POLYGAMY: If a spirit is naturally male or female in nature, which is what I believe the restored gospel scripture teaches, then freedom of choice dictates that more of one gender than the other will live the law of chastity in mortality. If God created the spirit sex of a person, He could, create more spirits of one sex than the other two offset an unbalanced males or females who choose to live the law of Chastity perfectly in mortality, and make it so freedom of choice would not create a need for polygamy, or Polyandry for God to keep His word that those who live Celestial law will have eternal marriage. A Celestial body is a body that is immortal and has sexual organs. A Terrestrial or Telestial body is immortal, but has no sexual organs. What could Jesus do as a spirit? Almost all things. He could not copulate. He created heaven and earth as a spirit. He spoke to Moses and the prophets as a spirit. What can we do as spirits? Almost everything. Jeremiah was sanctified and ordained as a spirit. We sang and shouted for joy at the laying of the foundations of the earth as a spirit. The rich man suffered as a spirit, while Lazarus had comfort as a spirit. We do not need a body to live. We are intelligent spirits housed in bodies of flesh and bones. Why then would we even want a body? To do something we could not do as spirits. Copulate, is the only thing of any consequence; not much judgement for over eating . Welcome to my logical mind. The answer is there will be polygamy in heaven.
The problem is that you present yourself as unbiased, just going off the facts. But you clearly are biased You failed to reference Jesus the Christ, which is regarded, or at least was, as can inspired work. It makes it clear that Jesus was in fact married. Further more, you failed to address Jewish customs of Jesus's time. Which are that rabbis were expected to be married to have any validity to their teachings And there are a whole host of gnostic books that teach Jesus was married. And there is the Doctrine that we have a Heavenly Mother, inferred by Jesus teaching we have a Heavenly Father. President Oaks recently taught in GC that gender is eternal and we have gendered Heavenly parents. So it's a logical conclusion that Jesus being our exemplar was in deed married. I feel for you needing a concrete point of Doctrine to be your foundation. But personal revelation is valid and simple logic is also reliable. Either God is a they-them and there is no eternal gender binary or God is binary gendered and marriage is fundamental to the eternal male-female relationship. Jesus Christ has made it absolutely clear that he is no exception to any rules. He is perfectly obedient to all of the Gospel covenants and teachings. That includes marriage. I'm sorry you have a problem with this very plain and precious truth. I hope you can make it through
Jason Sellers just asked about Adam and the commandment to be fruitful and multiply. Think about this: Until Noah, there was only one commandment, be fruitful and multiply. Adam lived over 900 years. Eve was good for a hundred and thirty years. but the scripture says that Adam had sons and daughters but it does not say who their mothers were. Only a fool would suppose that in 900+nyears that Adam only had one wife when his only commandments was to be fruitful and to multiply. He had one mission in life and one mission only, to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.
Do you want to know the truth about Jesus and marriage? Know Jesus and you will know the truth. Jesus is the way, the truth and the Life. I have known Jesus my whole life. So I asked him if he was married. He said, Yes. His first marriage was when he was still in his teens and he had grown children by the time he started his ministry. I asked him if he had more than one wife. He said, "Of course, I had more than one wife. I gave the commandment to be fruitful and to multiply and I would never give a commandment that I would not live. Monogamy is addition, Polygamy is multiplication. Not only that, people recognized me as King of the Jews and fathers would bring their daughters to me for marriage. Not only did I have many wives, but I had many children and after my resurrection I visited my family regularly. Many of my children grew up without sin unto salvation and were transfigured in heaven to be with me. One of the reasons that there have been so many attempts to eradicate Jews is because many Jews are my literal seed. I also took wives when I visited the people of Lehi and from among the other lost tribes when I visited them."
@@ekh1821wrong...moses had at least 2 wives abraham had 2 and was never ever told by God that was bad even when the wives and kids couldnt get along... prophet told david God had blessed him with wives and only had a problem when david sinned and went after someone outside of married and worse was married plural marraige is rough...id hate to share my spouse...however it is a thing that is ok when God gives permission ...thankfully not a requirement but a option at certain times
So many problems with this… The main one that I think you should consider is about being fruitful and multiplying. Historically, women who are plural wives have significantly fewer children than other women.
@@thedailydump7407 When I was a child 6 years old, my mother would ask me how many children I was going to have. I would say, "At least a hundred." She would laugh and say, "I pity your poor wife." I was 6, what did I know about sex? and what did a wife have to do with anything? Then my Mom got pregnant. I figured out that dad got the credit for having kids, but momma did all the work, and it was really hard on my mother. Then I understood why she would say, "I pity your poor wife." About that time, I also found out about my great grand father who had 2 wives and 14 children. Suddenly I had a solution to the problem. The next time my mother asked me how many kids I was going to have, I said, "Oh at least a hundred." And she laughed and said, "I pity your poor wife." So I replied, "I have that figured out too. I am going to have 10 wives and 10 kids a piece so one wife does not have to work so hard." She laughed and said, "They do not let us do that anymore." I wondered who would not let a man fulfill the divine mandate to be fruitful and to multiply. In these days, there is a war on children and a war against God to limit the number of children being born. My observation of 60 years, is that people hate children. It is all about sex and nothing about being fruitful and multiplying. In these days, men do not marry. A man will have multiple lovers and there is nothing wrong with it because he is having safe sex, but a man with multiple wives and many children is an abomination. How is that? How many children do you have? Are you keeping God's mandate to be fruitful and to multiply?
@@ekh1821 You are right. God is not an adulterer. Adultery is when a man steals another man's wife. Jesus did not steal anybody's wife, His wives were all virgins. In all of recorded history there are only two scriptures saying that the polygamy of the kings, David and Solomon was an abomination, both of which are in Mormon scripture, but nothing about the polygamy of the patriarchs or Moses or of the judges. So there is one example of how two kings who overstepped the rules for faithful polygamy and the scripture is supposed to apply to the whole world and for all time? I do not think so.
