What is also interesting is how the stillborn dragon babies are more common in targ / normal people mixes than targ with targ the opposite of what you would expect. So there might be more reason to incestous relationship than you would normally expect in the real world
Yeah, maybe the regular blood just wasn't enough all the time to properly moderate the Targaryen babies in their development, in terms of magic and Dragon-blood. Sometimes, if the partner had some magical inheritance (like the Blackwoods or the Starks) then that could help but, often enough with others, wouldn't be enough.
In the next episode of house of the dragon it's predicted ranira (I can't spell it) and Damon's new baby dies in childbirth and came out with scales and stuff, both Targaryen with a deformed dragon baby. It would seem to me that what causes this is extreme stress on the mother. When it happened to Daenerys She was under a lot of stress trying to save her husband's life. It's about to happen to ranira because her dad died and her throne is being taken from her.
Yeah, every time I hear someone call the Targs "inhumanly beautiful" I always assume it is meant not in the sense of "super attractive" but in the literal sense of "uncanny valley/bloodlessly pale/silver hair/purple eyes", the equivalent of vampire-elves. That and the fact that the sheer amount of Valyrian magic that relies on blood magic leads me to believe that "The Blood of The Dragon" might very well be quite literal, the result of either naturally stumbling upon the dragon ritual and breeding the bloodlines of those with the ability, or by artificially fusing the blood of Dragons and Men to make "Gods".
I think that you are right about them having an uncanny value too them being so different looking than everyone around them and bringing forth these powerful deadly creatures from tiny eggs and using them as pretty much flying nukes so I'm sure the ppl are kinda off putting by them for sure. But they do have beautiful eyes and beautiful hair so that would be the most beautiful things about them really.
@@mxflint1715 IIRC, Cersei says that she only got pregnant by Robert once and it died, so in order for Joffrey "Ill-born" to be legit, he would have to have overcome the Baratheon gene-plot armor and the fact that even his mother is convinced that he's Lannister on both sides.
Something GRRM said in an interview released just today about how magic works in his world According to him, magic in his world isn't about doing the right spells with the right rituals or making the right sacrifice even. The Valyrian sorcerer's noticed that what's much more important to the potency of their magic is how close they are to dragons. With that in mind, it's possible that the Valyrians started blending their genes with dragons to make their innate magical abilities more powerful.
Interesting! That definitely fits with the whole "magic is a sword without a hilt" thing, and I really like the more chaotic and uncontrollable element of magic in TWOIAF.
More to this point, Dany has blackwood, Dayne, martell, arryn strongest magical bloodlines tied to her first of her lineage. Then our boy Aegon Targaryon "Jon snow" has all those forrmentioned bloodlines plus thr stark whitewalker/Childern of the forest blood.
I've heard a theory that ancient Valyrians sacrificed a member of their family to bind them with a dragon and as a result could only claim dragons that were descended from the original dragon of their house. This is why they practiced incest even back then, even thought they were 40 great dragon riding houses. Marrying into other houses would've resulted in having children who could theoretically claim dragons from another house or maybe even lose their connection to them as the two different dragonblood lineages mixed. The books could also be implying that each house had a different breed of dragon, it's mentioned that the Targaryen dragons "were bred for war".
If you think of dragons like weak Wargs like the Stark children, then when they die, their souls would go into their dragons. But what happens when a Targaryen has a miscarriage, wouldn’t that soul also go into a dragon, but maybe not one that’s hatched yet. Maybe Targaryen miscarriages are the secret to hatching dragons
This could explain why Dany has so much trouble managing her dragons as they age. They might see her as their mother and have that connection, but the blood link necessary for her to control them doesn't exist. While Rheago was her son, he was dead before the funeral pyre and as such wasn't a sacrifice.
Maybe that's why multiple dragonseeds and those with Valyrian or Targaryen blood failed to claim Sheepstealer and Cannibal. But Nettles did. They were wild dragons never bound to Valyria, Nettles could only tame Sheepstealer like you would tame a wolf or a lion.
Blood Magic is certainly a part of it. Would also make sense that maybe the Valyrian Inbreeding to keep said blood is more than "family ties" but rather, their blood's magical properties were truly what they wanted to preserve.
Yeah that's fair, but Argella and Orys Baratheon actually look quite a bit like each other, and Orys is actually another good example of someone who has a ton of Targaryen blood (allegedly) but appears to have none of the classic Targaryen traits.
@@HillsAliveYT The traits come from Argella. We are told her father had 'famous black hair' and blue eyes. Orys had black hair and black eyes but its not particularly notable.I think the First men were in to some sort of Blood magic. Also note the blond Lannisters and their sigil of the Lion
@@04nbod yeah there was definately something magical going on with Elenei, that ALL her most direct descendants for literal thousands of ears have the same colouring.
an interesting juxtaposition between the Targs and Starks is that Starks have indeed been referred to as having “the blood of the wolf” at times, but only certain members (Arya, Lyanna, and Brandon to be precise). this is definitely not to be taken literally like with the Targaryens, but it’s still very poignant for these houses which are narrative foils for each other to have such similar language used for both of them.
another point is that while “blood of the dragon” is used amongst the Targaryens as a statement of power, “blood of the wolf” is used as a word of warning. the Starks said to have it were known to be reckless. Ned tells Arya that Lyanna had “a touch of it” and Brandon “more than a touch,” and that they both died young because of it. this isn’t relevant lore-wise, but i think it goes to show the characterizations of the aforementioned houses. the Targaryens who see themselves as more god than human, and the Starks who are much more down to earth.
Targaryen madness is probably a result of their mental link with the Dragons and whatever permanent change in their brain that make it possible. Who knows maybe there's a fire-net that is a parallel of the wyrmwood net connected to the worgs.
I think there is sufficient evidence that something in this lane has actually happened. There is no doubt that the unique physical traits (*inhuman* beauty, weird hair and eyes), obsession with incest and the dragon babies that pop up through the generations point at some genetic overlap between man and dragon. The Valyrians probably bound dragon blood with their own blood, and vice versa, using some lost arcane knowledge. Blood magic of some kind, just as the dragons were essentially bio-engineered from wyverns ( giving them their physical shapes ) and fire-wyrms ( fire affinity and power ). Whether you believe the dragon binding was done by the Valyrians themselves or rather by the Asshai guiding the Valyrians, my head canon is that each of the original Dragonlords was bound to his/hers own particular lineage of dragons, hence the subsequent inter-familial incest. Each house later formed kept their own line pure and married to their own kin to keep control over the dragons they bread from the originals. The Valyrian Dragonlords were after all notorious for their rivalries and thus they wanted to keep power of their respective bloodlines undiluted, explaining why no or very little mixing occurred, even with other dragon riding families, who could thus claim and usurp their rivals dragons at some point by virtue of shared blood. I also believe that it all happened after the global ripples of the Long Night and the winter it created drove the Asshai (who are hinted to be fire and shadow aligned, connected somehow to Rhlor, a sort of opposite to the Others) to travel to a suitable place with volcanoes due west ( Valyria ) to sow the seeds of the fire empire that would be some kind of fiery buffer to the Land of Always Winter and the icy power that resides there. Or something like that
Yeah this is largely my general impression as well, the incest aspect is just too weird and they're too obsessed with it for it to not have some objective value to them personally, and the only possible reason I can imagine is because of the dragons. Though I do like the concept that it's not the dragonlords themselves that performed some kind of gene-altering magic on themselves, but that they created dragons and magically connected them to their individual bloodlines.
Something to note about the incest: many animals don't blink about mating with their siblings, as long as they don't look alike (you can see this in cats, who have mutated to the point where 1st generational incest usually doesn't hurt the kittens and so on). It is possible, imo, that the reason why the Targaryans are weak is because there is an instinct to mate with someone who doesn't look like them, but they still do it. Dragons probably don't think about their relatives when they mate, they just mate with whomever is closest and distinct enough. It makes sense, to me at least, that if the Targaryans had intermarried and then outermarried a few times, they wouldn't have had the issue of being sick all the time, but they must also keep a certain amount of dragon dna (human dna takes roughly 5 generations to dissappear, but based on how bad they are at mixing genes, maybe it'll only take 1 or 2 for Targaryans), they must keep the practice of intermarriage, because they think that if you don't LOOK right, you weren't BORN right, when in reality, the chances are that after a generation, the looks go but the inheritant magic is still there, just slightly diluted
@@JDM-is-my-name or it could be they are attracted to their own kind because they are slightly different from regular humans, or have a sense that they are special and therefore many are not attracted to what they see as common humans....like some wizards in Harry Potter. Daemon seems only attracted to other dragon blood as far as climax and child bearing goes. As he matured he only got turned on by other dragon blooded women like Laena and Rhaenyra
So this is a general comment for the channel, not necessarily this video alone, but I really appreciate having this somewhat rare female perspective on this series. I love channels like David Lightbringer and Alt Shift X and have enjoyed the male perspectives, don't get me wrong. But besides Gray Area, I think you're the only female creator I've stumbled across that covers this series. I really feel the difference in videos like the one about Sansa and the Unkiss, etc. The boys just don't really cover the smaller, more nuanced bits of the female characters. They don't really approach the more emotional subtext that's littered through this series, it's like an untapped gold mine. Also, you have a knack for exploring topics in this series that none of the creators I usually watch do, like the video about Daenerys and Mirri Maz Duur. I just really appreciate your perspective and how eloquently you deliver it.
The Starks are hybrids with the Children of the Forest I would think. So are the Crannogmen. They aren't incesty about it though which is why the skills appear more commonly and why it is more prevalent beyond the wall where the Children still exist.
I mean they are kinda incesty about it: There are more cousin marriages known in Stark's, then there are non-cousin ones. But they never went closer than cousins. Ned's father broke tradition in marrying his children to outsiders of the North. I think there is a mention somewhere that it was the suggestion Ned's father's new maester. Some North Woman said the maester poured words that stoked greed for power into his ear, but I don't remember her name. That was why both Ned's brother and his sister were betrothed to the houses outside the kingdom of the North.
personally I like the idea that Danny had such a strong magical event that it literally sent ripples in time. While magic couldn’t backtrack its way through time, it may have leaked into whatever makes the magical dreams. Maybe it makes Danny feel to special for your taste, but it makes that bittersweet feeling that technically Aegon V could have fulfilled the requirements to make dragons come back, but the magical world is fixed and unbreakable. I think it really adds to how spooky the whitewalkers are. They are pure magic, and even the planning and manipulating of the most powerful people in Westeros for almost 300 years still couldn’t change the inevitability. If that couldn’t break magic, who knows wtf can break magic. A green seer like Bran? Or does this guarantee that Jon is the prince that was promised to the others 👀 or the prince that was promised to kill the others in Danny? Who knows, I just want George to finish lmao
I definitely think the ‘ripples in time’ thing is accurate. Prophecy is information from the future observable in the present. Time canonically works differently for trees than animals as well.
the sorcerers from stygai were said to have been the ones who taught the sheephearding valyrians how to bond with the dragons. i have no doubt that it was some kind of blood magic. george already showed in three instances (maggy the frog, melissandre and mirri maz dur) that his particular taste for fantasy magic is blood magic. also, the famous words of the targaryen house (although it only started with aegon, rhaenys and visenya) is FIRE AND BLOOD. i think the dragon bonding basically stemmed from pyromancy and blood sorcery, and somehow, the three siblings knew that those words meant everything to their valyrian heritage even though none of them ever lived in valyria proper.
I believe that the Valyrians used a magical version of transgenesis: the technology of transfering genes of one organism ( ex dragon) into another (ex human), thus altering the latter's genetic code. This would explain why they look etherial, contrary to pro Valyrians who were causal sherpheds and weren't in possession of dragons, they have high heat tolerance, they very often give bird to dragon babies, they are immune to a lot of human deseases, they have a symbiotic relationship with their dragons, which is similar to the concept of symbiots in Marvel comics, and a draconic demeanor: Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism, they have a strange affinity to fire, even when they don't have dragons, preferring fire more than conventional means of war, and most of them are diehard warmongers.
It's a very intriguing theory, and it does seem that the old Valyrian Dragonlords were capable of extremely advanced genetic engineering... or as ASOIAF calls it, bloodmagic. It's my headcanon that this genetic engineering is why the Valyrian dragonlords were able to practice inbreeding safely. That is, assuming that sibling marriages were actually what they did, and not just dragonlords only marrying other dragonlords, with the Targaryens only moving to sibling marriages because there weren't any other dragonlord families to intermarry with. Again, not a big deal if you can use genetic engineering to ensure healthy offspring, but if Aenar took the precaution of bringing skilled bloodmages with him to Dragonstone when they fled the prophesied Doom, the ability seems to have been lost in the early generations of House Targaryen. As far as the supposedly-half dragon baby Daenerys gave birth to... that's based solely on what Mirri Maz Durr told Dany. Dany never saw the body herself, because it conveniently crumbled into dust immediately afterward. We know that Mirri Maz Durr has lied at least once to Daenerys, so she may have been lying here as well, just to hurt Dany. GRRM has made it plain that lurid urban legends occur in Westeros as in our world, so part-dragon stillbirths may just be distorted gossip. Remember Oberyn detailing all the false descriptions of newborn Tyrion's deformities that were flying through Westeros after his birth?
What do you think of the dragon-X gene theory? (the theory that magic powers in ASOIAF are x-linked, so a father with the gene will pass the gene on to 100% of his daughters and 0% or his sons, while a mother with 1 copy of the gene will pass it to 50% of her kids, and a mother with 2 copies of the gene will pass it on to 100% of her kids.) When you start analyzing the series through this lens, everything fits surprisingly well (with the possible exception of Alicent Hightower's sons). Why do the Valyrians do incest? Because if a dragonlord wants his son to be a dragonrider also, then the mother has to be a dragonrider. What are there so many warg legends/vibes around the North? Because the early kings and important lords of the North married the daughters of wargs they vanquished, putting loads of magic genes in the genepool of the nobility. Why do the Stark kids have magic powers? They probably descend matrilineally from Danelle Lothston (same as Sweetrobin, who might as well have a neon sign on his head reading "I'm developing crazy Children of the Forest Dream powers"), and via incest, they could inherit whatever skinhcangerGenes the Starks had during the Dunk&Egg era. The Lannisters could inherit via Joanna the possibly magic horse-riding genes from Rohanne Webber (I do expect some crazy stuff to happen to Tommen and Ser Pounce in Winds). Jeyne Westerling, whom we know will resurface in the prologue, could develop magic powers from Maggy the Frog. I really like this theory because it compliments/contrasts so elegantly to the patriarchal system of Westeros. Dragon-X can be inherited from parent to child in so many different ways, but is CANNOT pass from father to son. If there's going to be magic bloodlines that make certain people special (which there definitely seems to be), then this is the most thematically-satisfying way to do it.
I'm sort of agnostic about it? Like I think it's interesting although I agree Alicent throws a huge wrench in that plan, but I'm not convinced just because I'm a little iffy on any explanation that is that clean.
I think that it would be difficult to reveal that within the story. It's a cool interpretation and I hope that some story like that one day is written, but I don't think that it is true. The Stark children are all wargs which would mean that they all inherited the warg gene despite having Catelyn as their mother, I don't think that the Tully bloodline is the one that has Warging abilities considering that Jon is a warg and Starks have a history with Wargs (i.e. Warg King). Danelle Lothston could theoretically have passed the gene down through house Tully but it would once again be extremely difficult for GRRM to reveal that all of the Starks have this blood from a minor characters in a Dunk and Egg novella. But this could obviously be wrong, it's just my own assumptions. I do think that not having any Tully before the current ones (aka the 5 Starks) be mentioned to have warg powers would make it feel cheap for some since we haven't got any clues to assume that the magic is in that bloodline. I also think that it would make Jon being the son of Rheagar quite a weird plotpoint since he would not inherit the dragonrider gene and him being a Targaryen would be meaningless when it came to the magic. It would also eliminate Rheagar's other children (particularly young griff) from ever being dragonriders. There's also characters like Alicent Hightower that had multiple dragonbonded children where only the father was of Targaryen blood.
@@anotherpawn Yeah, agreed. I doubt grrm will reveal how magic works in the slightest, but I'd be shocked if he didn't have a sci-fi explanation in mind that he's keeping to himself. As for Danelle Lothston, there's hints that Harrenhal will come back into the focus late in the series - grrm might be planning to make her very prominent, and he probably intends to write a dunk&egg story about her downfall. As for why neither Ned nor Cat seemed magicky... having the bloodline is not enough? Having a pet direwolf as a kid (Varamyr Sixskins notably also grew up with dog) helped, as did the time Bran, Rickon and Arya spent in the dark/blind. The shade of the evening, acorn paste and candles at the house of Black and White all have the same taste/smell, and seem to also awaken magic abilities. For Jon as the son of Rhaegar - does he have to inherit magic powers from his dad? If skinchanger genes and dragonriding genes are somewhat interchangeable Jon could still ride a dragon (and so could Tyrion or Euron). Any magic gene Rhaegar had would have to come from the Daynes or Blackwoods in the first place, since the Targaryens stopped doing incest for a few generations. For Rhaegar's other children, Rhaenys probably got a skinchangery gene, and now lives on in her cat - as will Tommen when YG sacks the capital, probably. Though unlikely, Rhaegar's son Aegon could get the gene from the first Daenerys through Elia, or a Rhoynish equivalent of the gene. If YG is actually a Blackfyre, he could get the gene from Daena the Defiant. And yeah, Alicent's sons are the one big barrier. Its maybe possible that she's Saera Targaryen's secret daughter, or that there's some magic genes floating around in the Reach nobility?
Alicent and Alyssa Velaryon throw huge wrenches into that idea. Alyssa is the mother of Jaehaerys. And Alyssa is half Massey. Other wrenches include Addam Velaryon, Hugh Hammer and Ulf White.
@@raphaelkhan273 Alicent's sons throws a huge wrench in the idea - mayyybe there's other magic bloodlines in westeros, or mayyybe Alicent is secretly the daughter of Saera Targaryen. These are definitely wild, unsubstantiated explanations, I know. Alyssa is not an issue - there's loads of intermarriages between the Targs and the Velaryons, and both come from old Valyria, so its reasonable for Alyssa's father to have the gene? Daughters ALWAYS get their father's X-chromosome; she could get the gene from him. I guess the Velaryons were never given access to dragons before Laena&Laenor, or never tried bonding with them because they didn't think they could? For the dragonseeds... the text does not say that Ulf and Hugh are the sons of some dragonrider - they could be second or third-generation dragonseeds? With all the lord's-right-to-the-first-night stuff going on, i get the impression that there's a lot of targ blood in the dragonstone smallfolk. some of those bastards would be girls, and some of their descendants would have gene, and some wouldn't though they might look Valyrian (like Silver Denys). Addam might be a problem because his source of Valyrian blood appears to be his father. Though there's little in the text to support this, you could argue that Marilda's a dragonseed with 1 dragon-X chromosome (statistically, she'd pass that on to half her kids, which explains why Alyn got shafted).
That's a really great point too! And something that isn't often brought up when people discuss the death of the dragons, I mean I know Planetos isn't the real world but nearly every animal species that has a population as low and a gene pool as small as the dragons go extinct.
@@HillsAliveYT I personally think wild dragons were hunted into extinction well before the doom, and by the time of valyria's fall, the dragon population was maintained through selective breeding... like it doesn't make sense that there are no wild dragons following the doom.
I'm surprised that no one connected that the original dragons were tamed by sheep hearders and haven't thought about them literally eating dragons to obtain their properties for generations. If their magic continually spread through a dragons very being then it is highly possible that the original dragon lord's are magically adapted and then conducted other test on slaves to understand what was possible through other paths.
Fantastic analysis as usual. I always wondered about the strange malformations of the stillborn Targaryens. You don't see these dragon-like traits in any other family who either have had magic or a Targaryen ancestor in their bloodline in Westeros, including those that do inbreed (to some extent). For example, there have been some cases of incest in the Stark family. The one that comes to my mind is the marriage between Jonnel Stark and his half-niece, Sansa Stark, though to my knowledge they never had children. Still, I'm pretty sure they aren't the only ones in family to have done this. So I do buy into your theories about the Targaryens and their magical connection to dragons as it just makes so much sense. An idea for the future, since you've done a video in regards to the Targaryens and their magic, you could do their foils: the Starks and their magic as well or any other House with a magical history. However, please don't feel pressure to do so, as I'm just providing you ideas just in case. Anyway, have a great day!😊
Oh definitely! I love the houses like the Hightowers/Daynes/Reeds who are magical as fuck and are just like "wait what magic never heard of it I'll see you in 10 years when I finally leave my house again," and of course my favorite Targ foils the Martells who seemingly had water powers to fight the Valyrians but seem to have lost them in order to assimilate to Westeros, i.e. exactly the opposite of the Targaryen MO.
@@Belle_isle899 The Rhoynish were supposed to have water magic, creating giant water spouts that took down dragons and stuff (no doubt if the Nymeria tv series is greenlit, we'll get to see some of that), but I don't think there's any legends/histories of them using water magic in Westeros(?) - they seem to have resisted conquest by the Targaryens by hiding underground when the dragons came by, and letting the desert kill any conquering armies. For other examples of incest, Ned Stark's paternal grandfather Edwyle was the cousin of Ned's mother Lyarra. Tywin and Joanna Lannister were cousins. Jon Arryn's second wife was his cousin Rowena. Paxter Redwyne married his cousin Mina Tyrell. Alys Karstark is pressured to marry her father's cousin Cregan. After the Blackwater, there was a short-lived plan to marry Shireen Baratheon to her supposed cousin Tommen. So yeah, sibling-to-sibling marriage is taboo for non-Valyrians in Westeros, but cousin marriages seem to be somewhat common, usually to consolidate power when the family tree gets too large or unruly. As for the Dayne and Hightower magic... who knows; they're just plain mysterious!
@@Mj_Jetson By our morals, cousin marriages is considered incest but I'm not sure if the Westerosi view it the same way since they seem to have no problem with it. I think the tv series you're referring to is called 10, 000 Ships.
Just in time for HOTD! Congrats on 2k as well! Really enjoyed the section on the Takesians. They might not be the entirety of the influence on the Targs (like GRRM's Golden Boy and Mooreock's Elric are in there visually for sure), but they are the "proto" targs in so many ways it's just uncanny.
@@HillsAliveYT I think the video was well worth the effort I haven't read all the comments yet but I've been scanning through and there's been some pretty cool responses and even a few interesting things that I'd never heard of or thought of!
I think the reason why the Starks kept their warginess is because that ability came from the First Men and more or less all northerners had blood of the first men. Bran's generation aside, which is half Tully, it seems to reason that if Starks married primarily other northerners (which seems likely as northerners in general seem to like to keep to their own and don't care much for southerners), it would preserve this ability. We know non-stark northern families also had this power. It is possible most, if not all did, at least to some extent. And it is conceivable that it was potent enough in those other families, even if comparatively weak relative to the Starks, that it kept the Stark line chock full of it. It is kind of like how all Valyrians had dragon blood, so it didn't really matter who they married within their own culture, that blood would be preserved. It only became an issue after they all died and there was basically only 2 pure blooded families left. The same thing would happen to the Starks and their warg ability of every single person in the north died and they were the only northerns left, that ability would rapidly fade when mixing with southern blood. It's also conceivable that perhaps at one point, way back when, most of those northern lords may have come into power specifically because of their skin changing abilities, and since nobles tend to only marry other nobles, it could be the northern nobles all have far more potent strands of warg blood than the common folk too just from natural selection that happened during an era before things became more civilized where personal strength was more important. Even if everyone forgot about it, it is still there.
Interesting perspective, I didn't consider a lot of this. I will say, though, I do think incest was still a common practice in old valyria. They didn't intermingle much even with other dragon riding families, which could imply they wanted to keep their particular bloodlines pure to keep their bond with the bloodlines of their particular dragons. I could be wrong and they married outside of their families all the time but I'm almost positive that incest was rampant in old valyria as well. Feel free to enlighten me cause I literally just don't feel like googling it haha
@@kiracarver988 it was said that it was tradition for siblings to marry in valyria for 5000 years, just as Aegon did with his sister, but it's not tradition to marry two sisters.
Authors are known to have their favourite Tropes, I only know german Authors really well and don't know enough Books from one specific Author to make such an assumption, but there are the Amazonian Women who are the Tank of a group of Adventures, the "normal" Special-Girl, the White Knight, the bigger than Life Hero, etc. Readers have also their favourite Tropes and Clichés they love to read about. That's ONE of the Reasons ASoIaF is so famous among so many Readers, it has a variety of Characters and it has a Character for nearly every kind of Reader. In Case of the Targaryens, it is probably the White Saviour-Trope and it is actually unsettling that this trope is so famous and beloved by so many People. And most of the time, especially in Myths that trope is connected to Half-Gods, so People with a Supernatural connection to some kind of magical Source, through Blood relations. So I think it is totally likely that Valyrians did in fact try to blend their Genes with that of Dragons. But I think in the case of the Magic, especially the Dragon Dreams and the Madness there may be a 50/50-Chance that it is a real Dragon Dream, but they can be manipulated. And I think it depends on how strong that Feature is developed in the Person itself. I for myself believe that Aerys was manipulated by Bloodraven and that he lost his mind because of it. Rhaegar was born during the Tragedy of Summerhall, which could have the result because it was still a blood magic ritual which should have some outcome, that he was more connected to that side of his Genepool. But I think he was also in some form Mad. Because he was so obsessed with Prophecy to a degree it seems unhealthy. What normal human being would Run away with their Lovers when their batshit-crazy royal Father is known to make dangerous decisions? Not to mention that it looks like that except for a small number of people, no one believed so strongly in prophecy. And he must have known that because he made such a secret out of it. So I think the more connected you are to that side of the Targaryens you tend to make more dangerous and for other normal People unreasonable decisions that seem Crazy, but you are able to maintain some sort of sane appearance. The more you are unconnected to that Side the more likely it is that you can be manipulated and lose your mind because of it.
I think the Ghost of High Hart was DIRECTING the ritual, not the victim of it. And the reason that it didn't work was because magic had not yet been re-awakened into the world.
Planetos was said to be racist, with the example that the crannigmen have many rumors about their physiology that are not true. I point out that Crannogmen are actually human / CotF hybrids so, the idea that they are a race apart is true, and the myths about there physiology may not be literally true but does represent a historical memory of their CotF ancestry at least , and may even be a factual recollection of some of the capabilities they used to progress.
So I also think that the rumors about the Crangomen being bred with children the forest are essentially propaganda. And it seems to work both ways like the Freys are really antagonistic against the Crangomen and they kind of use their "distance from humanity" to backup that hatred. While Crangomen do seem to be small in stature they're they're main differences just seem to be cultural traits and living environment adaptations. Like Meera can "breathe mud".. This just seems to be like a metaphor for being able to survive in the wilds she can do something that is essentially viewed as impossible for other people in the same way that would be impossible for a random person to breathe mud but she's acclimated and well trained and grew up in the Cronogs and so she can survive when others might perish. And the cronogmen don't seem to be more or less green dream attuned than other human groups after all we even encounter a random dornish noble lady who has dragon dreams even though her family takes all that shit as just being her eating too much sweets or something..
@@randominternetguyoffical I think Crannog men being CotF hybrids is undeniable. CotF had moss green eyes and green dreams. The only (correct me if im wrong) character with green dreams is Jojen. They are short, Live in a location created by the hammer of the waters. Theres a tower there called the Childrens Tower, where they were said to have called it down from. Howland was bullied easily by humans, only to be defended by a Stark, referening how humans dominated the CotF but some First Men defended them. THis is connected to the Knight of the Laughing Tree - a weirwood thing so it referenced the CotF. The fact that Reed females hunt, unusual in Westeros, also referneces the CotF.
@P Bran and tons of others throughout history, for example Bloodraven have green dreams and are even "greenseers" (something jojen is not it seems) Like yes the Reeds go to winterfell cuz of dreams but that doesn't make them part children. They look like humans and live normal length lives as far as I recall... theyre just often smaller in stature which doesn't really imply they somehow bread with a different species 100s of years back. Theres no real evidence for it and it seems to be just as methophorical as "breathing mud". Like im willing to bet they lived closely with them for sure but I see no reason to assume they did breed or are even capable of interbreeding with the children of the forest.
@@randominternetguyoffical Do you believe that humans and CotF ever interbed at all? I think it's undeniable, and that the northern houses have some CotF ancestry. I belive that this is why wargs (and greenseers) show up in northern families and wildlings only. These people adopted the culture of the children (Weirwood worship). Bloodraven's mother was a blackwood, so that fully accounts for him having green dreams (if he actually did. Regardless, he is/becomes extremely connected to Weirwood magic/ CotF).
@@umwha Personally, no because in all of George R Martin's other works interspecies breeding with humans doesn't happen in the same way that it doesn't happen in the real world. Like in his 1000 World Series there appears to be a definitive point at which you can modify your genetics through gene swicing and shit like that to the point where you can't re breed with people and planets like Prometheus who do lots of genetic augmentation are really careful to not augment so much that they can't continue continue being human or have enough of the "basic". This is also true in star trek the next generation to some degree and Melissa Snodgrass one of the lead writers on that is also 1 of the wild cards writers and she's 1 of his friends and they share lots of crossover and their work in general but long story short all the aliens in star trek have a common ancestor. Which comes out in 1 of the later episodes of the next generation and that's how you're able to have like half human half Cardasians and a 1/2 human half Klingons on and so on and so forth. So like I guess I have no direct evidence in book for it other than we never see a 1/2 human half something else hybrid in person. But I would say that George RR Martin's previous works and the works that he draws influences from are really big on the idea that you can become too far from the human basic genetic makeup to be able to breed with people. And I think this is kind of a clue that in one way or another the others are actually human because they need people to reproduce to reproduce so whether you believe in the the idea that they were a human being who had the obsidian shoved in them and they just need more human beings to shove more obsidian in them or if you believe they actually are genetically capable of reproducing somehow or passing on their otherism they still need another person because they are people. So thats kinda my basic take on it. Maybe this should be a trek x asoiaf video...?
I don't believe dragon/valyrian blood is recessive, for example, the Velaryons and the Celtigars maintaned their valyrians fenotypes for thousand years, don't forget they came to Westeros centuries before the Targaryens. The same can be said about the Dayne in Dorne. Despite the fact the Daynes were not Valyrians, specially because their House was founded thousands of years before even the Valyrian Freehold existed, however they both had the same fenotypes, the silver or golden hair and/or the purple eyes. There are also other theories that stated the Higtowers also had these same fenotypes, and also being one of the oldest houses in Westeros, problably having the same origin as the Daynes, problably people fleeing from the destruction of the Great Empire of the Dawn in the far East, so, comingo from east (problably Ashai) to the West. Problably the Empire of the Dawn were the first people to know how to tame dragons by using blood magic and the Valyrians were descendants of them. Also the Valyrians fenotypes are largely found in some places in Essos, Lys, for example, even most of the common Lysene people has valyrian fenotypes, and the same can be said about the "pure blood" of Volantis, so it's hard to believe that a recesseive fenotype still survived 400 years after the Doom of Valyria. And the other places in Essos conquered by the Valyrian Freehold never had a great amount of Valyrians living there, being mostly inhabited by the Andals and/or the Rhoynars who became vassals of the Valyrians by conquest.
i love to think that the idea that the hatch of Daenerys dragons are amanzingly rare and awake magic in the know world, it just makes the story better and supports the idea of the "death of schemers"
@@manulif7 There's probably some connection. I mean The World of Ice and Fire literally says that "The Starks killed his [Warg King's] sons, beasts, and greenseers, but took his daughters as prizes." I personally also think that their affinity for the old gods also comes from having some blood from the others. Perhaps the Night King's son could be their ancestor since he was speculated to be a Stark? It would not surprise me to find out that the reason why Jon is so important is that he is a fusion of the Vayrian blood of the dragon (aka fire magic) and the Others' blood (aka ice magic).
To add to the warging aspect, I think the targaryens also have the ability to take a second life as a dragon after dying. And might be why dragons continue to grow, bc dead Targaryens were constantly living as their dragons. Also why they have dreams of “becoming/waking” the dragons.
'targaryens also have the ability to take a second life as a dragon after dying' and whats the source for something like this? Nothings been suggested like that. 'might be why dragons continue to grow' why would they not continue to grow because simply because their alive?
I always just assumed Dany succeeded when all other failed was because dragons naturally hatch when the new mother breathed fire onto the eggs. And Dany, the blood of the dragon who had just given birth hours before, just jumped into the flames with the eggs
It's fascinating just how many women who married into House Targ or were Targ women themselves gave birth to stillborn babies with strange scales and wings.
EXCEPTIONAL and intriguing as Ever.🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰 The Lemon Tree videos was probably imo the best episode on the channel. It's wistful, then haunting, then disturbing and heart aching thematic tone was deeply affecting. ~{--!!!!--}~ After that the "Daenarys was Always violent" video was a powerful indictment how the high-born, like then only potential queen Daenarys, virtues single, fooling even themselves, but soon turn on the slaves they claim to have saved from worse. Ultimately Daenarys USED her elder medicine woman and Sorceress slave as a target to allow her to deflect her own blame (a scapegoat), then BURNED Her Alive with, as I never considered and the video brilliantly argues, with No proof of her guilt. Or, another brilliant surmise & insight, that she Deliberately frames Meera or at least makes no attempt to decipher the truth--Exactly Because she Needs to Bune a Magical Woman to successfully execute the ritual that has come to her in her Targaryen Dragon Dreams. Atrocious -!- INEXCUSABLE--!!!-- The Sansa not a dumb mean, throne grasping mean girl video exposes the sexism that is displayed when so many people Hate On a tweenage, Feminine girl--who essentially powerless, a hostage, repeatedly Abused.... And, as you point out--she smart & nice. The Sansa and Dany episode was intriguing, showing how their dynamic is different in the books. Sansa use Soft Power; xhe wins by creating alliances and genuinely cares about & connects with people. Great analysis! Imo opinion those are the four best that I've seen. The only flawed video I've seen on this channel is the one that argues that Elia would *undoubedtly* feel jealousy and free in regards to Lyanna. Deep Geek makes and very well reached argument that both women come from cultures where polygamy and polyamory are accepted. Lyanna's own Beloved bother had several mistresses who bore him many children. No stigma, political upheaval, and no jealousy. Rheagar told Elia her wanted a third child and Elia who had become baren, supported his desire and didn't fear sharing him. We don't need to wonder if Elia or Lyanna believed in the Prophecy... All Elia needed to know was that he wanted a third child. All the pieces of the argument fit neatly together. To sum up: This is a consistently excellent, unique, and exceptional channel🔅🔆‼🔆🔅 *~☺🥰😌~*
Thank you! And yeah, I've seen InDeepGeek's video about Elia being accepting of it but I just can't buy that, and they really don't come from cultures where polyamory and polygamy is accepted. Even if I were to buy that Elia accepted Rhaegar taking another wife, I don't think a woman raised in the kingdom where women have the most power and agency would be cool with Rhaegar publicly humiliating her to fawn over a teenager and then taking said teenager away without her family's permission to get her pregnant. Also, Elia is not an idiot, so even if she couldn't find a fuck to give about Rhaegar cheating she would clearly understand what a political powder keg abducting the young, unwed daughter of a high lord would be. Ultimately, even if she for some reason agreed that he could take another wife and father another child, she clearly would not have done something that would endanger the life of her or her children which is exactly what Rhaegar did, so the idea of Elia as the supportive doormat is just not plausible to me in this situation in particular.
I just can't get over the fact that GRRM's world is called Planetos. I mean, sure, we call our sun the Sun, but this just sounds like people trying to speak Greek when they cannot :'D
It is kinda a joke when I hear GRRM say it. Like Essos, Westeros… so he just calls the whole thing Planetos but I don’t recall that name being used in any of the books.
Princess Aeria was "abducted" by Baelerion to (probably) Valeriya. She came back infested with fire worms, which killed her. Is it possible this was an attempt to breed dragons?
That's exaktly what was going through my mind, throught entire series, almost as if the Dragons were willing (as it is implied they are beings possessing intelligence higher than these of "natural" animals) to be subservient only to Targaryens, because these two were literally of the same blood... But as I said, it's just what have crossed my mind time and time again... So, I clicked on this vid faster than the Red Queen could fly in her best years of life LOL 🔥🐲
I’ve just found your channel and I have to say I’ve never seen a theorist that repeatedly makes so many excellent, well analyzed theories. There is very little that I disagree with after binge watching a bunch of your videos. I especially loved your stuff on Sansa and Catelyn, which I was so glad to see since most of the fandom hates them to a vitriolic degree because of misogyny. Great job!
I think in the end Egg may have failed because he was unwilling to kill the Woods Witch, believing he was willing to at first, but when it came time, just not able to kill an innocent woman.. With everything we know about Egg, it could easily make sense.
I absolutely believe that the velyreans made the dragons through magic and that the noble families bound their blood to the power to command the beasts they created. The Targareans probably used blood magic rituals they didn’t understand to hatch the dragons that they lost or misinterpreted which is why their dragons kept getting weaker and smaller, and the visions they got were ancestral memories misinterpreted
The blood of the dragon refers to Aegon the Conqueror. He was nicknamed and sometimes called "the dragon". So when they say that Phrase they are saying with pride, that they are decendents of him. Daenerys called herself "the dragon's daughter". She was saying she is a decendent of Aegon. It is not literal. Although the magic to control dragons is in their blood.
Just a theory but incest doesn’t seem to affect the Targaryen’s or Valyrians until they mixed with the humans of Westeros. I wonder if it’s because they have dragon blood as long as they mix with each other it doesn’t cause psychological affects unlike the humans of Westeros
My favorite theory is that the ingredient making a dragon are in their house words: Fire and Blood. In Daenerys' case Drogon, Rhaegal, and Viserion only hatched because of fire and the deaths of Drogo, Rhaego, and Viserys. Maybe their souls went into the eggs or something. Dragons are more intelligent than other creatures so human essence in their being probably has something to do with it. Otherwise, why wouldn't people just tame wyverns or fire worms? Also, whenever Targaryens say, "With fire and blood" what they really mean is, "With dragons."
Well, the Valyrians are an Essosi race and culture. They originate from the Valyrian Peninsula (this you already know). They’re commonly referred to as ‘the Blood of the Dragon’ which is a hint at how they share some kinda ‘blood-link’ to the dragons they created-especially since there’s a recipe for creating 'em. Now, from what I know, they were based on the myth of the ancient Egyptian “Spirit People” that discusses an event where a great flash of light turned an entire village white, with pale hair, and interestingly; purple eyes. They were shunned by the rest of their fellow villagers who had not been stricken by the change. The condition was called “Alexandria’s Genesis”. But if you’re going to-be looking up “Alexandria's Genesis” I’ll save you the trouble, 'cause it is an internet myth about perfect human beings whose eyes turn purple during infancy or some sorta bullshit like that, lol! So if I had to guess, I’d have to say that George R. R. Martin looked at wizards as to how they’re portrayed in media and fiction, and he decided to make them into a race of people with white locks, the mark of wizards as being mystical and arcane, whether-or-not if it means that they are outright magical or not. 🤷♂️ In sci-fi and fantasy, it's often the only non-human hair color you will see on new species or race of people, especially in elves or human/extraterrestrial hybrids. It is a common mark of a Mysterious Waif and/or a Mystical Waif. The popularity of this trope probably stems from its status as a borderline-natural hair color: white hair on a young person strikes that delicate balance of being unusual but not blatantly unrealistic. The color also lends itself well to said symbolism.
I have a theory that since the Targaryens were mid level nobility in Old Valyria, they did not know the reason behind the custom of inbreeding within their specific line. They were likely dragon riders who were linked to the specific breed of dragon used in war. Balerion the Black Dread was most assuredly a war dragon, after all. Consider that the dragons of Old Valyria would’ve been used for construction of castles and strongholds, building of roads, probably there were even dragons used for mundane things like moving cargo or scouting food. A dragon is not a slave, it’s true, but someone forged Dragonstone, someone forged Valyrian steel utilizing dragon fire, and someone forged the Valyrian roads. The dragons were bonded and would seemingly do what their riders wished. Therefore, I theorize, the many houses in Old Valyria would’ve likely been houses bonded to specific dragon lines. When the Doom struck Old Valyria, the true high lords and practitioners of dark magics were all lost and the Valyrian histories and secrets were lost with them. The Targaryens, being of middling importance in Valyria, were not privy to these secrets and knew only enough to know to keep their lines pure with Valyrian blood to maintain their dragon bonds. The meaning of “Blood of the dragon” is therefore only metaphorical to them now, when in actuality, it has always been real. ✨
I think you are ignoring--well, not ignoring, but failing to see the full significance, of a key piece of evidence, namely Targaryen (and Valyrian more generally) incest. Because it's not just that they commit incest out of a need to keep their bloodline pure, it's that they positively lust after their own siblings. They clearly do not have a Westermarck effect; in fact, they clearly have the reverse. That suggests that they are clearly not fully human.
First for the "strange inhuman babies" from the Targaryens I believe are fully a product of their inbreeding. That being said: Dragons, at least in most fantasy literature I've read, are ancient wise creatures. I believe, or at least is my own theory, that Targaryens probably had some sort of pact or understanding with the original dragons and it somehow started their tradition of marrying their sisters/brothers to keep the "blood of the dragon" and so they keep having that strong connection to the dragons, the "purer" their blood is, for example Danny being basically twice or thrice inbred, it would explain why she was the one to bring back dragons since Targaryens started marrying out of their family for a while before she was born
I think it's actually a side effect of both inbreeding & something more. Just inbreeding wouldn't cause lizard-like, scales, wings, etc. which has been listed as malformations of the targaryen line, not just Rhaego. While I'm sure the inbreeding causes some of the strangeness, I don't think it causes the inhuman-ness. If I remember correctly the Targaryen's dragons got inbred as well in the end (because no other options) & were also malformed.
@@WildeMermaid There is no information about the reproduction of dragons or there relation of the dragons at all! The closest we get is that two dragons are thought to be doing a ‘mating dance’ but no mating occurs, and dragons are said to lay eggs, but we never actually hear what occurs with the eggs of any specific dragon. We’ve never once heard of a dragon hatching it’s own egg. I think this is because dragons are hybrids of wyverns and fire wyrms and are therefore mules and infertile. They are unnatural creatures and need humans to hatch.
@@umwha This is interesting, and it could also link to their tradition of inbreeding. Like somehow it being how they just keep making the larva stronger and stronger with each generation of inbreeding to achieve it's purest form whilst when they break the inbreeding chain they are more human, both in looks, mind and dna,
I genuinely shudder at the thought of what would have happened if Aegon V 's attempt to ressurrect the dragons would have worked. Imagine Areys II with a dragon...
Yup look at Rhaenyras sons. The str omg genes were well strong. And expect for dragon bonding they were str ones through and through. While the Hightower bloodline clearly bent to the Targaryen genes. And the stark genes were clearly more prominent than the Targaryen genes in Jon’s case
i wonder if targs are stronger in magical properties when theres less of em. as if jon, dany, and tyrion are all blood of the dragon that leaves only three left besides aemon who is cut off magically from the rest of the world being at the wall.
Valyrians literally have dragon genes from mating with dragons. They were probably using live humans as baby dragon incubators back in the old days that’s why Aerea Targaeryan was able to be “impregnated” by the firewyrm and why she gave birth to firewyrm babies with human faces. I don’t know if the Valyrians were some kind of slave caste in the empire of the dawn but they were definitely experimented on and the byproduct is carrying dragon genes throughout their dna through time.
She is not. Her being fireproof that one time was a miracle brought about by the sacrifices and the birth of the dragons. The reawakening of magic that her dragons brought to the world spared her from being burned.
If someone know how to birth dragons but is trying to get Targaryens to do it, it could be because they are not dragon riders and therefor could not control the dragon
I would argue that the genes (if they are genes) for dragon riding does not require incest. My two main arguments are: 1) Danny is like 2 generations of incest, after like 3-4 generations of not incest. 2) During DotD multiple dragonseeds (Valyrian bastards and their descendants) became dragon riders. Even a bastards that has (arguably) no or a very weak connection to the Targaryen (the mouse-bastards). So incest might not be necessary, but might be a helpful tool to make the chances higher.
Euh yeah violet eye …not really…more like euh very light blue with visible red capillaries…the purple is an illusion not actually bright violet tho ! Some can look pinkish or maroonish red …basically only reflecting blood color …so yeah Targaryens technically have albinism…but they are also fantasy dragon-hybrids …plus albinism doesn’t explain why some other people have violet or red eyes but colored hair and no deficiency in melanin whatsoever ! Also the silver hair of albino people is yellowish white not actually gray sparkly hair …you know , got to be precise about facts , there are people who take things to literally and would actually think that some people with albinism actually have silver and bright violet eyes…😅
Dani's dragons all look the same so I think they came from the same parents and they're real siblings unlike other dragons for HoD who all looks different to each other, means they're different species.
Preston has an almost 10-year old theory about Targ dragon genes being X-chromosome related that explains this trait. also, Starks marry a lot with other First Men noble families, which keeps their warg blood strong
I say fuckin! GOT was a breakthrough show and a bit, the second most violent and crazy show which was a total hitvas well! So my pitch for a spinoff is The Sopranos and the New York crew, both at their strongest have a spinoff with GOT. Game of Thrones vs The Sopranos! Who will be the ultimate Don to take the Throne!
I think that I love A Song of Ice and Fire's attempts at creating ambiguity. In a world were necromancer evil ice elves and fire breathing Dragons and animal telepathy are a confirmed reality we still have this layer of skepticism from in world characters as well as readers. I think that alone is an excellent way of keeping the story feeling realistic. I think it's an aspect of the story that's done almost too well. It's easy to forget how weirdly unique and seemingly supernatural things become almost mundane. The Baratheons are a great example. Robert fights with a huge war hammer, something Ned describes as almost too heavy for him to even lift. Ned from Catelyn's description of seeing her husband in the buff at the window describes him as being quite muscular. Historical war hammers were under 5 lbs because you're going to tire out swinging it eventually. Robert can fight all damn day with a weapon so heavy a smaller but still well muscled man can hardly pick it up. So we have a guy demonstrating strength that should be viewed as almost super human but it's interpreted as exceptional but you know not "possibly inhuman". Yeah the Targaryens are dragon people.
No, Summerhall was Aegon V going completly batty and perhaps trying to sacrifice Jenny of Oldstones to awaken the dragons. Jenny, descendents of First Men kings, friends with a greenseer. Ice and Fire dreams misinterpreted
Actually the Game of Thrones they do describe to send themselves valyrians with valerian or Targaryen traits only that because of the many years of probably marrying into other families the train can you do have are either like just the purple eyes or just white hair they look more mixed race one would say compared to the targaryens who do in breed
It would be incredible if the targaryens lost their purple eyes trait due to thinning of the bloodline. I would love to see this explained in a doom of valyria series or movie
Feels like there might be some magic involved with the greater Valyrian houses and Targaryens in regards to inbreeding. They'd be deformed, sickly messes by now even with the occasional out-mixing with other Westerosi houses. All we seem to get instead is a propensity toward _madness_ while still regularly coming out very good-looking and robust. How do you get people like Maegor, Daemon Blackfyre, Rhaegar and Maekar through generations of inbreeding? Or beauties like Rhaenys, Daenerys and Daena? The Dragon Lords should look deformed, not _inhumanly beautiful._
I haven’t read the books but am wondering if the scaly skin on Stanis daughter could have been some sort of genetic throw back to Targ ancestry. Is this a theory or is there an explanation I have missed that explains her condition?
Shireen had greyscale, a contagious disease analogous to leprosy. It's progression was stopped (it's usually fatal) but the tell tale deformity of the skin remained
Still, do Targs must inbreed to have dragon-binding magic in them? I mean, not only Jon Snow was a warg but he could ride dragons too (Rhaegal in the show?) Lyanna was a Stark and Rhaegar was a Targ and YET the dragon-binding ability was there? Please correct where I'm wrong.
GeorgeRRM originally thought the targs could be pyrokinetic but I think he decided on dragons I think to give them less control of their weapon. I'm not sure how relevant that is cuz the decision was likely made well before other world building aspects were settled.
Yes, they are. They are definitely not human. Normal people look like the Habsburgs when they inbreed. This is the law of nature and Martin has written it into his world. We have a full spectrum of genetic disorders due to inbreeding, but the Tardaryen and Valyrions avoid that. More severely deformed child miscarriages are when Targaryen takes someone outside the family. Besides, how can we be sure that scales, tails, or even wings are not part of the development of the fetus?
'Yes, they are. They are definitely not human. Normal people look like the Habsburgs when they inbreed. ' Dragons and magic also don't exist in the real world, lol.
