Does the Bible Condemn Homosexuality? Guest Interview with Jeffrey Siker 

I'm glad that you too escaped the pain and condemnation that was heaped upon you. I also struggled for about 15 years with this and my chronic depression and anxiety over it. I'm glad you're feeling better now my relationship has been for about 25 years now, with three stepchildren and soon to be our 4th grandchild.

Wonderful story Greg. Glad you made it out. All the best for the future matey.

I cannot talk on behalf of Christianity, but in Islam, it's not you who is an abomination. It's the act of rebellion against your maker that is an abomination. We are all sinners, but the best amongst sinners are those who turn back to their maker and repent before the clock rings the bell of the test end. Life is a like a blink of an eye. It's just an hour of exam. Whether you pass or fail. Our desires are a distraction.

​@@adamdilem941 Can you stop this? It is like saying, black skin is rebellion against God but he doesn't judge you. When something is an integral part of you, you can't separate it from the person. This "we are all sinners"-narrative is just manipulative. It acts as if stealing or being gay is the same thing. But it isn't. You can stop stealing while staying true to yourself. You can't stop being gay without crippling your soul. "It isn't good for humans to be alone," is written in the bible. Funny, how this suddenly doesn't apply anymore when it comes to LGBT.

Hi Greg, have you read "The Man Jesus Loved" by Theodore Jennings Jnr.? If not I do recommend it. Thank you for sharing your story.

Exactly. Bart is also great at helping academics explain the points so that a person without the extensive background understand what the issues are and how it’s much more complicated than what they are commonly told in their religious institutions.

It does. Winger is going to need new pants after he views this one...

Delusion or believing what they were taught by the nuns/priests.

Bc, while the Bible has many diff authors, their words came from ONE 3rce Holy God.

​@@pattheplanter Sounds like you suffered under Roman Catholicism. Not too surprising. I hope & pray that if it shipwrecked your faith, that you will find your way to Jesus SOON. But this time with the teaching of the Catholic church, not the ROMAN Catholic church. Please watch the following to know what I mean: "Catholic, but not ROMAN Catholic// John Barnett" (yt)

@@Anabee3 All priests are lying or deluded, no exceptions. Tell yourself whatever story you need to get you through the day but don't believe the Churches, they have always lied. I know their history.

Fundamentalists very try to pretend it does...even though there is zero debate that it wasn't written a huge number of different people, in different times and places. Indisputable, really.

I really like that as well. Reasonable people can come to different personal conclusions on important topics but still be very respectful toward one another with acceptance of those differences.

It’s pretty obvious that we can all have these conversations . People have theme everyday . Nothing special going on here. Only uneducated morons in RU-vid comments and Reddit can’t have conversations .

But still didn't answer the question within an hour

As long as they are not fundamentalists there is room for meaningful discussions.

@@tzakman8697so you’re fundaphobic

Did you read what the Bible said about it? It says the opposite of what you said. You are denying reality.

This is due to the fall of mankind, pedophiles have attractions they ought not have I’m not entirely familiar with the psychological data we have on that but that seems to be the case too. In christianity we believe that all have a different cross to bare to honour God The Bible says death and disease came through sin, so we deviated from God’s intended path for us which is why people have attractions they ought not have Because it is natural doesn’t make it good. Whatever is good is whatever is according to God’s will for He is the standard of good and without God there is no moral standard If you don’t believe in God that’s your choice, I respect that. But Christians (according to Biblical beliefs) don’t see homosexuality like a special sin it’s the same as lying and stealing. All sin has the ways of death, the death of the soul as it is separated from God A Christian homosexual would refrain from acting on these attractions they have, and in that way honour the Lord whilst simultaneously trusting in the promise that Christ will ultimately fulfill us in ways our earthly attractions never could. Have a blessed day friend 🙏

Have you ever wondered why all the men in ancient Greece were homosexuals? None of them were born that way, much less all of them. They were sexually abused as boys and became abusers themselves, just like today.

My son tried to tell me not all gay people practice the sexual part of expressing "love". Then I accidentally read the text "I can't fall asleep without your cummies" to his male "friend". He was otherwise still a virgin trying to convince me he was sure he was bi sexual at the least.

Man is a sinner by nature and practice.Sin is natural.

Animals will jump anything when they are in heat that doesn't mean they are home sexual lol. That's like saying when dogs jump on humans like that that its beastiality.

I’ve never given a damn who someone else loves.

We aren't supposed to behave as farm animals do. That is the point. Am I supposed to hump a pillow because a dog does it? No!!! Human beings are supposed to exercise self-control. Or shall I now get out and eat the grass on my lawn?

Homosexuality occurs with the same percentage throughout the primate kingdom.

@@tatie7604Farm animals eat, sleep and reproduce. We should probably do those!

You want to see strange, read Judges 19.

@@montagdp Thanks for the tip. I needed a good wholesome Bible story to read to my kids to keep them on the correct path.

@@montagdp thanks for the tip.

​@@montagdpThat is a good one to mention to someone who claims to get his morals from the Bible.

My favorite is when David asks for permission to marry Solomon's daughter. Solomon agrees to arrange the marriage but only if David can kill 100 Philistine men and come back with their foreskins. What does David do? He comes back with 200 foreskins. That's a good story to talk about while your family is having dinner...

There is nothing wrong with fundamentalism if you understand the fundamental thing with God is LOVE.

Is it? The christian god is not above, wrath, envy, jealousy, desire, or anything that we would consider unethical. The main villain of the bible seems to be the fallible creator, who tinkers and throws tamper tantrums, if his creations, whom he made don‘t behave in the way he expects. So is the main theme Love, can we attribute that to the god-being od the bible? True love would not be commanded, and forced under threat of torture. Anyone that commands and expects worship, is automatically unworthy of it. There is just no way to compare the biblical god with anything like love, in a meaningful way.

@@derfuzzy8854 Where on earth did you read about a God who has temper tantrums? If you put your hand in the fire it gets burned.

@@derfuzzy8854 The is no Christian god. There is only God. One God for all people.

@@SimonSverige Oh he admits it freely himself "I am a jealous, a wrathful god". He is frequently described in most stories prone to anger,jealousy and basically any characteristic, you would ascribe as negative in human beings. He even deceives people with false vision in one storie in Kings. About the lable: We can change that to "The god, as described in the bible" better?

Next stop, Carnegie hall! 😂

I definitely need to get more practice in

@@darkcyndoge disgusting, disturbed psyche

😂

Same lol

Are you kidding, that's a perfect example! My mom was born in 1940 when India was a part of the British Empire. My mom to this day calls all South Indian people "madrasis", because she is North Indian. Back then, the British ruled all of South India through the Madras Presidency. My wife is South Indian and hates that term, because South Indians are not all the same. When the Madras Presidency became Madras State, the first thing the South Indians did was break up Madras State along ethnic lines. So, when my mom uses that word, my wife feels like my mom is being racist against South Indians. Were North Indians using that term in the 1940s racist? It depends on intent, which is a form of context. For example, my mom is trying to learn the proper terms, because she is exposed to South Indians now more than ever, so she is trying not to be insensitive. So, is she racist for once using the term "madrasi"? Things get interesting when you realize people in different times have different ideas, and applying ideas from modern times will lead you to greatly misunderstand what people in ancient times actually thought.

His point is not that Jesus was intentionally excluding homosexuals, but that he literally did not think of whether to include them, because he had no concept of them as a category of people, much less a category of people who would want to marry. Thus, they would not enter his mind when discussing marriage. In his time, this is not homophobic. We can't know what Jesus would have thought of homosexual marriage should the modern conception be explained to him.

Seems to me you're rationalizing to defend your cherished, bigoted, "Christian" beliefs. Frightening.

Given that 'homosexuality' is a mixture of Greek and Latin that is unsurprising, but so what? We've advanced and found various forms classification to be rather useful since then.

@@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar _["Given that 'homosexuality' is a mixture of Greek and Latin that is unsurprising, but so what? "]_ He's pointing out that because ancient people didn't think about sexual attraction like we do, the Bible couldn't prohibit homosexuality as we know it.

​@@TheHookahSmokingCaterpillar The poster was obviously talking about reasonably equivalent terms: rebutting this semantically is like claiming Greeks and Romans didn't think "man" and "woman" existed as categories because the terms are Germanic and Old English in origin. (To be clear, Greek had anēr/gynē, and Latin had vir/femina).

That's true. But what they condemned is homosexual behaviour. Which wouldn't really matter (different times, different culture) if modern Christians didn't source morals from the book. At best they do the whole "hate the sin not the sinner" bullshitery. At worst they advocate for laws targeting homosexual people When people ask "does the Biblie condemn homosexuality" this is usually what they refer to. Many Christians are actually ok with celibate homosexuals

@@AurorXZ I think you missed my point, which was we do use the term now, because such a classification is useful, so what if it wasn't used then?

Why would you spoil that for people reading though the comments?

@jc_alpha choices

Of course he's not a Christian pastor - he would never fool genuine Christians who study the bible properly without misrepresenting it.

@@Chris_Sheridan You can tell straight away when a fundamentalist appears in the comment section of Bart's videos Please crawl back under your rock

@@strumspicks2456 .. and you have a problem with fundamental values? You do know the actual meaning of fundamental? .. it applies in many areas of life - similar to the term 'basic' and 'from original principles'. Why are you so afraid of good moral values that are healthy for society ie. basic family values.

Just because someone is giving you a green light to sin against your creator, it doesn't mean that you are ok to do so. In the day of Judgement this guy's opinion won't give you a free card out of jail/hell.

@@adamdilem941 Why are you condemning others? You are not the one who will judge that, and God - I am more than sure! - only sees souls. He doesn't care if they are gay or straight, which color their skin is or what ever other factors our (and your!) limited human minds can come up with. He loves ALL of us! And to pounce on someone just because you feel their sensibility with this topic, just because you want to look down on someone, just because you do not want to look at yourself and your own issues is not the way. God is love, and if you were a true believer, you would not judge.

@thelyrebird1310 You deserve love just like anybody else, don't let others unsettle you. God does not care about sexual "orientation" (that expression already makes me squeamish, because it is in itself incorrect already). Love, peace and healing to you, but most of all: happiness, in your private life as well. Because you deserve it, be sure of that!

@@ElinT13 "God loves all of us, God is love" How about we give God a chance to speak on his behalf instead of you dictating to him who he is and what he loves?! Did you create him or did he create you? You are master over him or is he master over you? Let's see what he has to say about himself: Psalm 5:4-6 "Oh God you hates all evildoers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence" Psalm 139:21-22 "Do I not hate those who hate you, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred; I count them my enemies" Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers" Leviticus 20:23 "And you shall not walk in the customs of the nation that I am driving out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I detested them" Psalm 5:5-6 ESV "Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" Hosea 9:15 "Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal; there I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels" Psalm 119:53 "Hot indignation seizes me because of the wicked, who forsake your law." Malachi 1:2-3 “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” Psalm 145:20 "The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy." GOD DESTROYING HOMOSEXUALS SODOM AND GOMORRAH : Genesis 19:13 "for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.” Deuteronomy 29:23 "like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and in His wrath." As you can see God himself tells youthat he does not love all of us. Certainly not Sodomites and their Allies. He hates the wicked. But he forgives those who repent and turn away from their wickedness. But those who do not, they will face hell fire for eternity. That's God's decree. You claim: "God doesn't doesn't care if one is gay or straight, black or white..." God doesn't care about your skin colour when it comes to his judgement. But he has told us that he cares whether you are righteous or rebel against his will and Law. Being black or White you have no choice on that, he created you black or white or Chinese or male or female. Being a Sodomite however is a sexual evil fetish that he forbade you and that you have control over it. You are responsible for your actions in any just court. It's like a pedophile saying God doesn't care about my fetish just as he doesn't care about my skin colour. Thanks to deceived people like you we have now Gay Drag queens performing X rated strip dances in nurseries, primary and secondary schools. Before you know it, soon they will be legalising pedophilia as they're already bringing scientists on tv and newspapers to brainwash people that "They are born that way". Does that so called "scientific" excuse sound familiar to you?

@@ElinT13 When did he Judge? Why are you attacking him for stating that comes straight from the bible? Bible Verses About Homosexuality Genesis 19:1-11 That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there, and when he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "come to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up early in the morning and be on your way again." "Oh no," they replied. "We'll just spend the night out here in the city square." But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. Lot prepared a feast for them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast, and they ate. But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!" So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. "Please, my brothers," he begged, "don't do such a wicked thing. Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish. But please, leave these men alone, for they are my guests and are under my protection." "Stand back!" they shouted. "This fellow came to town as an outsider, and now he's acting like our judge! We'll treat you far worse than those other men!" And they lunged toward Lot to break down the door. But the two angels reached out, pulled Lot into the house, and bolted the door. Then they blinded all the men, young and old, who were at the door of the house, so they gave up trying to get inside. Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice *homosexuality*, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT) Leviticus 20:13 "If a man practices *homosexuality*, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." (NLT) Judges 19:16-24 That evening an old man came home from his work in the fields. He was from the hill country of Ephraim, but he was living in Gibeah, where the people were from the tribe of Benjamin. When he saw the travelers sitting in the town square, he asked them where they were from and where they were going. "We have been in Bethlehem in Judah," the man replied. "We are on our way to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim, which is my home. I traveled to Bethlehem, and now I'm returning home. But no one has taken us in for the night, even though we have everything we need. We have straw and feed for our donkeys and plenty of bread and wine for ourselves." "You are welcome to stay with me," the old man said. "I will give you anything you might need. But whatever you do, don't spend the night in the square." So he took them home with him and fed the donkeys. After they washed their feet, they ate and drank together. While they were enjoying themselves, a crowd of troublemakers from the town surrounded the house. They began beating at the door and shouting to the old man, "Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him." The old man stepped outside to talk to them. "No, my brothers, don't do such an evil thing. For this man is a guest in my house, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you like. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man." 1 Kings 14:24 And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. 1 Kings 15:12 He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 2 Kings 23:7 He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the LORD, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole. Romans 1:18-32 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.... Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. *They traded the truth about God for a lie*. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved*. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice *homosexuality*, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Actually, this is a very important subject because in fact Jesus condemns accumulation of wealth. And I think this is one thing that shows how different views Jesus had against the Jewish establishment at the time!

​@@fz1205 This is also an issue were fundamentalists suddenly don't care as much about the bible.

longcastle..where in the Old Testament is stated that, otherwise there wouldn't no jewish kings if it condemned it.

@@JeannieSoko The jewish kings are portrayed as a compromise. In first Samuel it is made very clear, that the people want a king and God gives them one, but he says clearly, that they made a decision against God. The whole deuteronomistic literature from Deutoronomy to second Kings is a harsh critic of monarchy. Even more intense is the criticism from the prophets, especially Jeremia and Amos. If the bible is consistent in one thing, it is about siding always with the poor against the rich. The bible shows Gods loyalty to Israel despite of their monarchy, not because of it. David isn't even portrayed that good, Solomon isn't either.

@@derpfaddesweisen thanks for the reference, i will read more into it.

Yess! I'm forwarding it to people who need some perspective on this issue.

Very interesting discussion, but still not answering the question

I’m not an authority figure but I am Christian. I would be humbled to attempt to answer any questions you have.

It's not complex at all. It is made complex by the dubious historical narrative this scholar places over the text and context.

I couldn't agree more. People could learn a lot from observing the relationship between these two scholars.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that just because they are scholars, they have no possibility of bias due to personal beliefs. And that possibility is perhaps even greater in this field of study, in which the “academic” is likely to hold strong personal feelings about and opinions on the same subject matter in which he is also purported to be an academic or an expert.

Except when politics and money get involved. Some historians cannot say certain thing and some scientist cannot publish certain things if they want to keep their funding.

I don't need and expert to tell me what the text plainly says. Homosexuality is a sin and it is also a sinful habit.

And they also sneak in their subtle deceptions. 🤔

Yeah, I think that Bart made it possible for me the listen to the dodges and auto-excuses and learn some facts, even though about 90% wasn't relevant to any question that was asked. Those were informative nonetheless. But damn, it disgusts me so much when people like his friend just avoid answering questions and distract with unrelated topics instead. And even then, the christian scholars lays bare how awfully horrific morality in the bible is concerning how to view other people. He can sugar coat it all he wants but things like "it's the lesser sin", while talking about a town wanting to rape men and Lot offering his daughters to be raped instead, that's some messed up stuff and it's messed up to downplay it like that. I loved Bart's response on that one though :p He sees it as the book of horrors that it is and just went: Haha wow! okay! :p And he went back to topic. So well done, I suppose. You have to have a strong stomach to discuss biblical morality and not get distracted with every batshit insane detail in the stories.

Spong and Ehrman would be interesting.

You were never Born Again.

Bishop Spong could never get Jerry Falwell to debate him. At one point their churches were across the street from each other. Christians separated by belief in the God of Abraham.

When Nietzsche declared God to be dead, it was more because he had noticed that God had been dead all along...

Sophistry is integral to Philosophy

@@enijize1234 Meaning?

You think they answered the question of the topic? They would better fight but give an answer at the end 😜

No you did not.@@SuperMrAndersen

Jews were not to eat pork. It does not say man is not to eat pork.

@@simon-ty7no But how do you separate the moral from ceremonial. For instance, is there a moral reason behind not eating pork? Was there a health issue since pigs eat so much junk that can be passed on to humans who eat them and possibly cause severe illness or even death? Can we say what the purpose was behind such rule? Usually, it seems to me, that there is a moral purpose behind the ceremonial. This is what I mean when I ask if it, "basically negates all of Leviticus?"

@@ithurtsbecauseitstrue1922 But weren't all the rules in Leviticus meant for the Jews?

@@markadams7046 no. some are moral laws, some ceremonial. Some are what is right and some are how the jews separate themselves from others. kosher rules are not morals laws that apply to everyone

@@markadams7046 that doesnt mean kosher laws had no rhyme or reason.

In the same context of prohibiting homosexual acts, you also can’t wear shirts that is mixed cotton and polyester which was mentioned in the video, or you can’t grow different crops in the same field

@@byron9630 That is a great red herring, but the issue/and topic of the video is the actual prohibition of homosexual acts. I merely pointed out that I wondered what the Jewish thinkers of the time thought about the passage and how they interpreted it. It seems there is a lot of Post-Modern criticism going on with these texts today, and I am simply curious about what it meant and how it was viewed at the time by the religion that produced it.

God didn't make them that way. You believe that lie because you're gullible.

Im gay and live in Oklahoma, and it has gotten better here, especially in the two cities OKC and Tulsa I believe what you said that there are many different people here because the Lord wanted us here, in many different forms because I believe we were meant to try and learn to love one another before gaining access to heaven I'm also Christian and it's not easy with other christians tell me I'm proud to live in sin and gay people telling me I believe in nonsense, I say to them there are 10 commandments not one involves sexual oriantain besides adultery and coveting. Everyone who quotes The Bible and the 6 verses I say none were from Jesus who never spoke a word against homosexuality. It apparently is a big deal more to humans than it is our Lord, so I believe. And the last I pointed to is he put it in nature to show us it is natural. Just wanted to say keep fighting the good fight and don't let other christians tell you, you can't be a good Christian if you're gay. We are not just Lust we are Love too, just like straight people can lust but also love.

@@zt3823 According to the Bible we inherit a sinful nature. So that can be anything against God. Everyone struggles with different sins. Just because you see in it what you call nature doesn't make it natural. We see murder in the world, stealing, and rape. Just because it happens between animals and humans doesn't make it right. After all, all of creation was cursed.

Lust is a sin for everyone. Sigmund Freud invented the idea of "gay" and sexual orientation. Our bodies physically are not designed to act sexually with the same sex. If we embark on sexually engaging in this way, we are going against the creation ordinance. This affects us spiritually as well. Trauma is often at the root of aberrant sexual desires. It's never too late to repent.

Genesis gives us the creation ordinance. Men are to be with Women sexually in a holy marriage. That's it. You're not believing in the God of the Bible, or in Jesus of the Bible. Jesus didn't address homosexuality per se because it was so widely understood to be not permitted by God, he didn't need to.

So then with your question I Ask you do you follow the entire law of Leviticus? Do you follow the 10 commandments to the T?

@@endswithme555 Ok, you don’t how either

@@mindymild what?!!

@@endswithme555 Did I stutter?

@@mindymild if by stutter you mean did your last statement make any sense, it didn’t. You might want to proofread before you hit the reply button. Your first response “ok you don’t how either” makes zero sense! lol

I disagree. Jeffry Siker is not arguing in good faith. He’s just another apologist twisting logic (and occasionally brutalizing the English language). Thumbs down.

@@jeffryphillipsburns That doesn't seem fair. Siker comes across as quite erudite and intellectually honest in my opinion, and Ehrman is clearly enjoying the discussion.

@@jeffryphillipsburns That's my take as well. Siker takes some of the most straightforward verses in the text and spins them to match his agenda. Liberalism, not Christ, is his saviour/faith.

@@Charlotte_Martel - So, you claim to be the expert on early Christianity and Biblical studies that Dr Siker IS? Hubris in spades. And denialism, too, towards someone who is trying to bring you knowledge.

@@MossyMozart I never claimed to be a Biblical expert, but I am literate enough to know that when a sentence states "The table is black," it doesn't actually mean that the table is white. It's amusing how you resort to appealing to authority, yet you readily reject the straightforward interpretation of these verses from the majority of Biblical scholars until extreme liberals entered the field. It's almost as if we choose which sources qualify as experts based on how closely they align with our own opinions.

Tbf, the bible writers were never speaking from anything that would be considered science as we know it today.

If you cannot see that it's not natural, you're absolutely blind. Lmao 😂🤦

​@@br1qbat Agree. Science was still barely a thing back then. But when people use verses to form opinions and/or even governmental policies, I think it's fair to point out when that opinion is contradicted by science.

He says the same about women with short hair. This should make you question if his view of what it means to be "natural" is the same as our modern view (it isn't). Homosexuality as we understand it is as similar to the thing condemned in the bible, as Evangelicalism is to the teachings of Jesus.

Show me this example. Whenever I have looked into it, I find no compelling reference to animals engaging in homosexual sex. "Same sex behavior" might just be the wiggle room you're looking for. But if it is not homosexual intercourse it doesn't really count. Please provide your references. I've mostly found: two lions hunting together and grooming each other. Sorry, not the case. Dogs humping each other. Dogs do that to show dominance, and even a female dog will "hump" another to show this dominance - and it is unrelated to homosexuality - as is sniffing butts.

I think they've backed the wrong horse when they oversimplify about "orientation" as the point of divergence between antiquity and modernity. There are hints of an implicit understanding of sexual orientation from several sources in antiquity, even if it's mired in things as fanciful and bizarre as astrological determinism (and even if these were largely concerned with sexual acts). Siker very briefly touched on a much more promising point of divergence - one related to orientation, but also broader than this: the social normalization of long-term, same-aged monogamous relationships between those exclusively interested in the same sex. We really have to compound the descriptors, because otherwise there are always comparable examples from antiquity. And even as it is, we can still find things that fit the bill of "long-term, same-aged monogamous romantic relationships."

well even if the Bible said in Hebrew, Thou shall not butt-Fuck ... that would still be wrong. Just because the Bible says so does not make it right. Much of the Bible is downright evil.

No, very different from the Goodacre interview. Here Ehrman feels it necessary very often to step out of his interviewing role to compensate for Siker’s seeming inability to express himself coherently. Much of this is Ehrman interviewing himself.

You are right. The difference between "laws" then and now is that our current laws have been agreed upon in a democratic way based mostly on what is good for our modern society, while the Fable is a partly random collection of folk tales from the iron age.

Jesus never spoke on homosexuality nor did he speak on abortion; both were occurring in his time 🤔 Christians believe that Jesus is God incarnate, perhaps God changed his mind about the whole homosexuality thing and that's why it's called a New covenant I didn't new; with nothing being said in the New testament about. Paul while he was nothing more than a commentator... In other words I think banning gays. By Christians is totally being put some sweats and to think you know the mind of God; if you didn't want gazing trans he wouldn't have created, and if you say it's Satan's fault that you're saying Satan has just as much power 🤔💭

@@mickeydecurious God will burn these abominations in hell forever.

Homosexuality is natural and normal. We have been around and will always be around, thanks be to God.

@@Good_Grace However, nasty it is and unhygienic. Yeah it is kind of natural. Wild animals are seem to do it occasionally People do it with the opposite sex They are considered straight, but occasionally experiment with anal intercourse So you may find anal intercourse disgusting But you have no authority to Defined the bounds of nature. Human biology is not just simply male and female there are many medical conditions that put a person somewhere in between When you look at the fine details you have to ask what is normal? Go to another country and watch guys walking down the street holding hands They are not gay they would laugh at you if you said they were But you would be embarrassed to walk down the street hand-in-hand with another guy It’s cultural dude. Open your eyes.

@@Good_GraceYes it is. Heterosexual people do it too. They also have oral sex. You can’t deny the biological fact if homosexual orientation just because you find anal sex icky. And many homosexuals do not have anal sex. Lighten up.

With what we know now about the brain, thought crime shouldn't even be considered and shows how fkd up religion is

@@crede9427 Exactly. We have known that thought crimes are not and cannot be crimes for more than a century. But the grip of religious organizations on the population is very much based on punishing thoughts.

They were wrong in everything.

Bible Verses About Homosexuality Genesis 19:1-11 That evening the two angels came to the entrance of the city of Sodom. Lot was sitting there, and when he saw them, he stood up to meet them. Then he welcomed them and bowed with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "come to my home to wash your feet, and be my guests for the night. You may then get up early in the morning and be on your way again." "Oh no," they replied. "We'll just spend the night out here in the city square." But Lot insisted, so at last they went home with him. Lot prepared a feast for them, complete with fresh bread made without yeast, and they ate. But before they retired for the night, all the men of Sodom, young and old, came from all over the city and surrounded the house. They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to spend the night with you? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!" So Lot stepped outside to talk to them, shutting the door behind him. "Please, my brothers," he begged, "don't do such a wicked thing. Look, I have two virgin daughters. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do with them as you wish. But please, leave these men alone, for they are my guests and are under my protection." "Stand back!" they shouted. "This fellow came to town as an outsider, and now he's acting like our judge! We'll treat you far worse than those other men!" And they lunged toward Lot to break down the door. But the two angels reached out, pulled Lot into the house, and bolted the door. Then they blinded all the men, young and old, who were at the door of the house, so they gave up trying to get inside. Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT) Leviticus 20:13 "If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." (NLT) Judges 19:16-24 That evening an old man came home from his work in the fields. He was from the hill country of Ephraim, but he was living in Gibeah, where the people were from the tribe of Benjamin. When he saw the travelers sitting in the town square, he asked them where they were from and where they were going. "We have been in Bethlehem in Judah," the man replied. "We are on our way to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim, which is my home. I traveled to Bethlehem, and now I'm returning home. But no one has taken us in for the night, even though we have everything we need. We have straw and feed for our donkeys and plenty of bread and wine for ourselves." "You are welcome to stay with me," the old man said. "I will give you anything you might need. But whatever you do, don't spend the night in the square." So he took them home with him and fed the donkeys. After they washed their feet, they ate and drank together. While they were enjoying themselves, a crowd of troublemakers from the town surrounded the house. They began beating at the door and shouting to the old man, "Bring out the man who is staying with you so we can have sex with him." The old man stepped outside to talk to them. "No, my brothers, don't do such an evil thing. For this man is a guest in my house, and such a thing would be shameful. Here, take my virgin daughter and this man's concubine. I will bring them out to you, and you can abuse them and do whatever you like. But don't do such a shameful thing to this man." 1 Kings 14:24 And there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations that the LORD drove out before the people of Israel. 1 Kings 15:12 He put away the male cult prostitutes out of the land and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. 2 Kings 23:7 He also tore down the living quarters of the male and female shrine prostitutes that were inside the Temple of the LORD, where the women wove coverings for the Asherah pole.

Of course they are not silly questions. Men wrote the books. You could say their dicks wrote the books. Why would a dick consider a woman... except for sex of course?

the difference is this: during history women were not considered as beings with agency over their lives (or very minimal) so they did not bother with them, but men had agency, will, desire so it was imperative if you want to control men you need a higher authority (God) directly ordering what free agents (men) should or should not do The idea what women have agency or they have euqal agency and rights as men is a very very very very..... very very modern idea. People in the past did not bother with women they were controlled by their family, husband or other men. You only needed to control men to control society.

@@fixpontt I understand that and I suppose that is partly why I asked, because our notion of sexuality and sexual orientation has also changed completely, as Jeffrey and Bart discuss in the video. So my question was basically, well, if a modern religious authority or individual insists on applying these biblical statutes about specific sexual acts in spite of the historical change in our understanding of sexuality, then presumably they must also apply the biblical statutes as in spite of the historical change in our understanding of gender and women. Therefore, wouldn't the codes not actually apply to me or any other woman (with a few exceptions where the statutes are specifically directed at women, like Leviticus 20:16)? So I would not be required to abide by them, neither in letter nor in spirit, since the people writing them wrote them only for men because they had no concept that I had that sort of agency anyway.

They’re not silly questions at all. Corresponding to @fixPontt’s point, the Hebrew Bible was written to men. The idea was probably that men would interpret it and apply it to the women of their household. There could be various reason Leviticus 18:22 doesn’t say what women can’t do with each other: 1. Woman on woman would not violate the rights of a man’s ownership 🤮 of her sexuality 2. Maybe Women weren’t supposed to have sexual desires 😂 so how would they have sex without a man? 3. Women were seen as so desperate to please men that they wouldn’t want another woman. This is a laughable concept in a way, but there is denigration and oppression behind it, as when Rachel is dying, but Yahweh’s messenger visiting her says, “You’re going to have a boy, so don’t worry about the dying painfully and young part.” Or the enmity between Leah and Rachel in order to be the one to have the next son for Jacob.

In terms of the Jewish Bible ("Old Testament") it's potentially ambiguous. As the man on the left in the video said, some Rabbi's thought it of course also applied to women, while others thought it didn't. As for the New Testament, which would be the defacto law Christians are under (not the Jewish Bible), it does seem to say that homosexuality of all kinds, man or woman, is thought of as harmful and wrong by God. Jesus and other New Testament authors make a few passing remarks about "Sexual Immorality" ("Porneia") in the Greek which some scholars understand to be a blanket Jewish term for all levitical forbidden or harmful sexual relations. Paul however is the most clear on the matter. In Romans 1, 1st Corinthians, and other places, he seems to say clearly that all forms of homosexual acts, and even mindsets, are against God and harmful in the Christian worldview.

There's always the agenda. They pretend nobody knew what the heck arsenokoitai meant until liberal prots in the 70s figured it out...

It's not a conspiracy against homosexuals. It's the knowledge that the leaders of the Christian community were not lenient concerning the carnal pleasures in general. Remember John the Baptist. He lost his head protesting against the immorality of King Herod who had married his niece Herodias. Both people were married and divorced their spouses to live together. That thing would be considered today as a right of two consensual adults, but back then it was a huge scandal.

If I remember correctly there are many passages of the new testament where Jesus says the people have to follow the laws of old still.

The ten commandments are in the old testament.

Jesus doesn't condemn homosexuality in the pages of the NT where he appears. He does though, something much more distresful: He "condemns" all sexuality - at least that sexuality of today which is considered an autonomous function of our organism, and as such, a human right. When he says for instance, that "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Mathew 5:28) he certainly doesn't suggest that this act is blessed. And when he speaks of "eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.” (Mathew 19:12) he also doesn't mean that a man should cut of his genitals... Who can live without being carnal - regardless of sexual orientation? Not someone who simply complies with some external orders and restrictions for sure...

@NullStaticVoid .. Read Romans chapter 1 - the Christian Greek scriptures have not changed God's moral laws. There is nothing that replaces marriage between a man and a woman. There is not one account that makes provision for a 'new' morality ie. the acceptance of sexual practices outside of traditional marriage - for single heterosexuals, fornication and adultery are serious sins. For homosexuals/lesbians who continue to practice perverted sex acts, they are sinning against their own bodies - it's irrelevant if they have engaged in a 'civil' partnership - God's law supersedes man's law where it conflicts with God's righteous standards.

Well that is the main purpose of the Bible ... wouldn't be much left if we could invade, kill folk, and control women

Not a good attack. Look and discover they few wars were religious. Christians fought slavery as well. And it was the secular communism that killed nearly 200 million people in the 20th century. You're being biased, and a bigot. Much of what you said is only true, in that, during some phases of Europe - EVERYONE was Christian - thus those who did bad were as well, in a world where all were. Likewise - those who opposed Galileo were Christian - AS WERE HIS SUPPORTERS.

The Gay Gospels by Keith Sharpe is terrific

I found the Bible itself to be illuminating on the subject.

This entire hour is just them saying "ehhh what can you do?!"

That is why as a Christian I just believe in God and try to be a good person and that's all.

That is true for every aspect of human life though

Religion is more a reification of culture and philosophy, relevant to the time of its development, more than anything else. Religion makes a lot more sense in that context.

Would you rather that it was absolutely explicit and dogmatic?

@@BlueBoardAnalysisas an atheist, I can respect your position.

Amen. We are all sinners. Which is why we need faith and Jesus and his complete work on the cross

Just because Pedophiles and sodomites exist, it doesn't make it an inherited programming in our biological DNA. It's a sadistic fetish not a biological thing people are born with. Just like our obsession with the dollar. It doesn't make the dollar a biological thing. Just like drugs addiction, you're not born with it. May be our generation have more knowledge about biology than people who wrote down the scriptures 1000's years ago. But your knowledge is a drop in an ocean compared to that of who created you and sent down the scripture. God is outside the limitations of space and time. The engineer who designed the latest version of Iphone knows better what you should and shouldn't do with it than the user of Iphone. It's just silly to argue against the manual of Iphone.

Exactly. And in a homosexual relationship, what is gonna happen , sex !

They sum it up themselves in the introduction: "They finally make it possible to confirm that the two key verses in Leviticus - and, more generally, the entire Hebrew Bible - do not prohibit, much less condemn, free and faithful same-sex relationships. And they also allow a similar degree of confidence with regard to all three passages from the apostle Paul." Somebody should get the entire clergy of the Church of England to read this.

@@pattheplanter Anyone with an iota of sense knows such 'scholarship' is just thinly veiled activism.

@@ConsideringPhlebas As opposed to the thinly-veiled inactivism of the conservative statements? Have you read it?

@@pattheplanter No, and yet there are some things that you know exactly what they will be before you read them.