Douglas Murray And Roger Scruton On The Future Of Conservatism & Debate | The Spectator 

RIP. A tremendous loss to the pursuit of knowledge but we are richer for having benefited from your insights.

Travel well, Sir Roger Scruton. You were a gentle giant and your thoughts will be celebrated by posterity. Thanking you from India.

So refreshing to watch two intellectuals using language in such a masterful way - no f’ yous - no middle fingers and no slogans -

Practically the entire public sector in a nutshell.... "It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people who pay no price for being wrong." Thomas Sowell.

Two civilised Gentlemen having a civilised discussion. How refreshing, what a treat.

This is the kind of discussion I like. No bobblehead questions like "shouldn't you apologize for..." and "don't you feel bad about what you said..." and "aren't you concerned about all the people you've offended?" Or of course the protestors shouting them down.

"If you discard truth, all that is left is the pursuit of power". That is what is happening virtually everywhere. Thank you Sir Roger and Douglas - you are two fantastic intellectuals. I really enjoyed your discussion. I never stop learning from great men like you.

Roger Scruton is a joy to listen to, especially in the insanity and intellectual incoherence of these times. We will miss him.

As a teenager in the 80's I hated Roger Scruton. Why did I hate him? I'm ashamed to say I didnt know. I couldn't have told you other than to say I was told I should hate him as he was a fascist. At that age I was a socialist wannabe. It is to my great regret that at that young age I was given a book by Noam Chomsky and not Thomas Sowell. Having grown I now realise I was wrong and they were so many bitter wasted years. He was then and until his death, a wonderful man.

I was very saddened today to hear of the passing of the great Roger Scruton. Although I never had the privilege of meeting him, or even hearing him speak live, his brilliant defense of Conservatism help to shape my view of the world. Rest In Peace Sir.

I don't think that the party who call themselves "The Conservative Party" are what I, and apparently others think are "Conservative" Maybe it's time for a new party who are genuinely conservative, in the real sense of the word. Douglas and Roger, please keep up the good work. A little light in the immense darkness....

i just absolutely love douglas murray. all i do is read all of his work. he's phenomenal! although i disagree with him here and there, he always clearly and rationally states his view and more often than not, backs it up with facts.

Men, please become such fine gentlemen yourselves! How beautiful to live in a world where more and more people like this exist! So inspiring, uplifting! ...God bless us!

RIP Sir Roger 😢 an unbelievably great loss

Sign me up for Scrutan Murray College

It is quite reassuring that the art of conversation is still alive on the web although it's almost non-existent on TV! I thoroughly enjoy this conversation between Scruton and Murray. Perhaps, they are our modern equivalent of Johnson and Boswell.

Best YT notification I've had in a while. Great upload!

Brilliant conversation - brilliant people! ((But why is it suggested to me by YT only three months later??)) I did like the audience's questions, too - restoring my faith in thinking and genuine people......

Amazing discussion, Conservatism has always been at the heart of true discourse and progress

I am not British, but I can endorse almost everything they say.

The conservative marching chant: What do we want? Minimal change! When do we want it! In due course! Is the change good? Let us go check ... Should we revert? MAYBE!

I would love to see them do what Jordan Peterson did and upload university level lectures for anyone to learn qualifications would be nice, but getting the knowledge out is more important

This speech is prophetic. It’s now a year later and it’s never been more urgent.

I will not listen to BBC news or go anywhere near Gaurdian news.

This is worth rewatching every few months or so. The affinity between these two men is charming and their rational discussion remains refreshing and inspiring. We should all be so lucky to have such a friend as Douglas was to Roger.

On the eastern European countries many of them are now paying for open borders immigration as many of their best people and many others have left their home countries for western Europe and finding serious shortages of semi and skilled workers but very few want to talk about it.

It's the most sincere of tragedies that this was one of the last times Sir Scruton ever spoke publicly. A mere six months later, he had passed. That's twice now, I have discovered individuals who've had the bravery to discuss important things in public, despite their own private troubles. The other was Michael Crichton, who wrote the Jurassic park novels, and was prominently discussing climate change mere months before his death. Not particularly an anti-climate change tact, but moreso saying, until all of these elites who fly around on private jets, and enjoy 24./7 aircon in their houses, and don't mind paying $15/gallon (because they can afford it) change their houses to strictly off the grid electricity and start helping poor people pay for food for the children, they should f*ck off. He was of course extremely wealthy by most people's standards.

Murray: People are loyal to institutions that are loyal in return. The Conservative Party wants people to be loyal to them but doesn't return the loyalty. Sounds exactly like many Republicans here in the States.

Godspeed Sir Rodger. The United Kingdom was surely blessed to have you.

*_There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing._* ~ Aristotle *_The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended._* ~ Frederic Bastiat *_Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves._* ~ William Pitt (the Younger), Speech in the House of Commons, November 18, 1783 *_We always plan too much and always think too little. We resent a call to thinking and hate unfamiliar argument that does not tally with what we already believe or would like to believe._* ~ Joseph A. Schumpeter *_Indeed, a major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it . . . gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself._* ~ Milton Friedman *_The two weakest arguments for any issue on the House floor are moral and constitutional._* ~ Ron Paul *_As long as human beings are imperfect, there will always be arguments for extending the power of government to deal with these imperfections. The only logical stopping place is totalitarianism -- unless we realize that tolerating imperfections is the price of freedom._* ~ Thomas Sowell *_The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter._* ~ Winston Churchill

I am concerned for the future of the world upon seeing the view count on this conversation. So much good thought and wisdom of which relatively few have taken advantage.

Good discussion. Conservative schools are greatly needed, especially because they would protect the environment necessary for true learning to occur. The main problem with education these days is that so much of it has become politicised that indoctrination has taken its place.

_"Build more beautifully"_ - It's a nice idea, but it doesn't change that cutting down woodland to build pretty houses still leaves you with lost trees. Those houses also come with roads, more cars than the buildings and streets will have been designed for - and so on. Yes, build beautifully, but also build more practically; every house should have three floors, a basement, and parking space for _at least_ 2 cars, as well as a front garden, and a back garden large enough to play football with a child. Also, the houses aren't being built for the people here, they're being built for the 500,000 people who have moved here almost every year since the late 90's. Oh, and stop foreign residents from owning property (or at least heavily limit it) - especially in places like London. Plus stop people from owning too many properties period.

RIP Roger. What a great talk. My two brain cells were very titillated.

I loved the remark on chanting slogans. "What do we want - hesitation; When do we want it - ermm, quite soon I think"

Thanks for posting! Rest in peace Sir Roger Scruton. You were a Light for us here in Brazil.

Ohhh such pleasure to listen to these brilliant minds, I feel blessed! We need to spread this message in Sweden, no time to loose!

Let's see, I can watch a video like this, or I can watch Young Sheldon, the Big Bang theory, or Jerry Springer, with attendant commercials. I just don't know what to do, TV is so incredibly appealing these days.

Rest in peace Sir, such a loss.

Yes you are indeed loved here in Brazil Sir Roger! And so are you Douglas Murray

RIP Sir R Scrutton you gave us so much and trust your message will prevail. God bless you.

RIP to a great scholar. I came to know about him, unfortunately when he died. I started researching and watching so many RU-vid videos about what he stood for.

Culture is a collective expression of people. When those people become a minority the culture that sprung out of them will vanish. Forever. Shouldn't that be the question of all questions for real conservatives?

2 of my favourite speakers❤️

If only governments would wake up and listen to Mr Murray and those like him, still capable of rational thought. A good start would be to legislate to stop the massive harm social media is doing or break them up as the anti democratic monoplies they are.

Apart from how wonderful and brilliant both speakers were that evening, the highlighted note for me was how extraordinary the audience engagement was. Having seen a ton of events on politics, philosophy, and religion between America, the UK, and Australia, this was easily the best set of audience questions I've ever seen.

So, where do I sign to join Scruton Murray College?

Interesting discussion. As a ‘lefty’ one thing I have appreciated very much over the past 3 years is the need and the positives of a moderate right wing voice. One such as Scruton who is clearly a man of great intelligence and competence. But what plays itself out in Parliament and over the Atlantic is a pantomime of politics and debate. Rather than right or left, what I would give for a ‘competent’ centrist movement. Sadly, that voice wouldn’t be very loud.

Two wonderful people having polite and honest debate and exploration of ideas, the world needs more of this, not activism.

U got to stand 4 something or you’ll fall 4 anything.

The Scrutum Murray university, now that would be a place I would definitely want to study! 🏫

Unite and Hesitate!

I was born in an English industrial city slum (1950) and at the age of 12 had to hide the fact that I went to a library 'because I enjoyed it' and most definitely had to hide the fact that I also regularly visited the city's art gallery! The 'left' working class culture contains many hidden conservatives who did go to uni and benefited greatly from that and who also did learn to 'question' all things rationally. Sadly, the woke generation puts even more pressure on souls like me to remain hidden and quiet..... a quiet that seriously needs to be challenged. People like Douglas and Sir Roger are bright lights in the current darkened world of 'weaponized opinions'.... to put it in Douglas Murray speak :)

Progressivism becomes popular in good times. Don't worry, bad times are coming.

@Douglas Murray - watched clip with you on at 'The Hoover Institute' and you're last line was powerful. So much so as to bring a well of water to my eye. I strongly agree more levels of gratitude are necessary for survival. [comments were disabled]

So what happens if everybody just ignores the twitter mobs or whatever and stops capitulating to them?

Restin peace Sir Roger Scruton, a tremendous loss, but his vision will become reality one day,

Of chants: Chants are degenerate songs, and songs are chants evolved. Conservatives are uncomfortable chanting slogans, but give them a hymn to sing, and they will sing to glory. A choir is infinitely more beautiful than a mob. Therefore, I would suggest that when conservatives get together, the fitting thing is for them to sing a good song. I think it would be effective, too.

Scruton reminds me of a ten year old in a septuagenarian's body. I mean this in the sense of not just his boyish body language and adorable mannerisms, but more so his open-mindedness usually reserved for that section of our population untarnished by decades of disillusionment and conditioning. Rest in Peace Mister Scruton.

RIP. Sir Roger is no longer here but his wisdom will guide the new generations from now on. Its really a great loss not only to the conservatives but to all mankind that lost a tremendous intelectual.

This format, where Douglas is hosting the event, is my favorite way to listen to him. His as well as Sir Scruton's charm, wit and sense of humor absolutely shine here. I will watch this again without a doubt. Does anyone know where I can find a schedule of upcoming events like this?

I had the inestimable benefit of studying the history or western thought in philosophy classes at Saint Michael's College at the University of Toronto. Wonderful, brilliant thought and its foundations.

Thank god there are still intelligent people who may yet wrest our culture back from the brink of insanity.

Instincts that are formidable and void of controversies and contradictions, are defendable and don't require reinventions to be accepted by the masses. When you go into other peoples nations and lay their ships bare, and for no fault of their own, the people of those barren ships, look across the seas and see opulence, the "natural" thing to do will be to set sail towards that opulence. You can't consume that which is pleasurable and not pay the equivalent price for that which is pleasurable.

Rip Sir Roger Scruton

Love the words fight to find what is lost

Goodbye, Sir Roger. Many Americans will miss you too. Thank you for all you’ve said and done.😢

RIP Sir Roger. Never afraid to offend, and brilliantly eloquent. Your authenticity will be sorely missed.

Two international treasures on stage together. Just need Peterson up there to form the Holy Trinity. Bless you gents.

1:00 Conservatives haven't lost their sense of humour.

I think i’m a conservative as described by these two gentlemen. However, i’ve never voted conservative

As much as it pisses me off to say, (47yr old Canadian, white, male(Gasp!)), I think we need to raise the age of majority-at least where it pertains to areas of allowing your opinion to carry weight- or create a standard that one must pass or attain or meet before you get to speak up infront of the adults. I think it would help disarm these professors who feel their job description includes churning out mentally/emotionally under developed avatars of their pet resentments

i am not a conservitist but i admire that he actually has persude his opinion intellectually and philosophically.

Perhaps the way to “fix” all of these “woke” individuals is a simple step process with the very first and perhaps only step needed is to have their parents, or whomever their fudiciary might be to stop all support immediately; money, food, shelter and let them see what being “woke” really means. The real first step in a education is self sufficiency, imagine how gratitude will be the new word, respect, value, society...oh I’m getting carried away with the dream of mass awakening. Calling all parents and fiduciaries time to change the world, time to right your wrongs, time to get civility back on track. Let the real awakening begin! Hashtag #awakening

Interesting talk.

If Roger and Douglas were the Conservative Party - they would never be out of power. Is that an irony ?

A Scruton/Murray University would be a wonderful thing. They could still open one, even if it was not at first recognized by the Leftist establishment. They would be overwhelmed by the number of students, from all over the world, who be lining up to join. The kudos itself would be worth more than the diplomas the Left would prevent them from issuing.

What a splendid debate on common sense, something sadly missing in todays society

“So here I am, in the middle way, having had twenty years- Twenty years largely wasted, the years of l'entre deux guerres- Trying to use words, and every attempt Is a wholy new start, and a different kind of failure Because one has only learnt to get the better of words For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate, With shabby equipment always deteriorating In the general mess of imprecision of feeling, Undisciplined squads of emotion. And what there is to conquer By strength and submission, has already been discovered Once or twice, or several times, by men whom one cannot hope To emulate - but there is no competition - There is only the fight to recover what has been lost And found and lost again and again: and now, under conditions That seem unpropitious. But perhaps neither gain nor loss. For us, there is only the trying. The rest is not our business.” T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

Listening to these two amazing gentlemen make me wish to stand up, take to the streets and defend England, it's culture, heritage and Enlightenment ideas until the last day of my life...and I'm Colombian :V

High art of good conversation. RIP Roger Scruton. Douglas Murray is a worthy heir.

Observing this discussion on current subjects is a revelation.. Respecting the audience and themselves..something others could learn from.

If nothing is true, everything is permitted

Absolutely riveting. I am grateful.

I've learned so much, thank you very much. Two great thinkers.

Isn’t a shame that the scruton Murray college never came to be!

Wonderful.

Capitalism doesn't work if people don't have capital. The terms and limits of property ownership need to be more clearly and properly defined. That is the elephant in the room in every political and economic debate. Land and resources like rivers, oceans, forests, and mountains can't properly be owned by anyone. All of those have to be considered a kind of commons, which are subject to agreements as to their use - agreements which are frequently subject to re-negotiation. The ancient law of Jubilee was an attempt to deal with that problem. How quickly men forgot the Jubilee because of their greed to own land perpetually, and without limit. Land is not "property" in the same sense as our bodies and personal effects. No man creates land as he creates a pair of pants or a tool. People agree to the fair division of the use of land (by a sort of social contract), which can only be valid for the parties to the agreement for their lifetimes. It's a fairly simple thing for a small population in sparsely populated lands. Every family takes a one acre lot for a house and some acres for farming, and some acres, or a large common area for grazing. Every party to the contract gets roughly equal consideration. Each household respects the exclusivity of property usage to every other household because it gets in return exclusivity to its own "property." There are obviously problems when one household tries to claim exclusive use of a million acres of land and allows no other household the exclusive right to no more than one half acre of land. It's not a contract anyone would agree to, and I wonder if any contract with such enormously unbalanced terms would even be legal. There is no reason for a million people to agree to respect exclusive property rights to a man who claims a million acres when they have no more than a half an acre themselves. Social cohesion doesn't work unless people have a place to live, sleep, and be secure in their persons, as surely as an animal needs a den. The Bible puts it succinctly when it says: "Woe to those who lay house against house and field against field until there is nowhere for men to go" or make a safe house for themselves. "Woe" is serious. It means some people go mad with greed and claim much more "property" than they were ever entitled to. Ity is not efficient or in any way fair for millions to pay rent to live, while a few collect rents and do nothing. They hit upon this notion very well, when they asked the young man if he owned a house or ever expected to own a house, however humble, and got no for an answer both times. It's a severe violation of the social contract, or mutual agreement among the living on how to make use of the land that no one can truly own. There has to be a reasonable limit on property ownership, and the system needs to be set up in such a way that the bare minimum of property that every person has exclusive and inviolable use of needs to include a house or apartment. That doesn't mean that it has to be given away, but that it must not be prevented. And the main way it is prevented is by not having an upper limit on property ownership. Once a person has their house, they may not have another, or any portion of any other house, not by mortgage or anything. How hard is that to achieve? Of course there is trouble in politics and economics when the violation of the social contract has become so extreme that most people have no houses - and thus no security in their dens, or the places they must go to sleep. For them the social contract makes only demands while giving no concessions. They must respect the fraudulent property rights of others all over the place, but if they attempt to lay down in a field or pitch a tent on a beach, security guards and/or police will show up to threaten violence if they don't move on immediately. They get no consideration in the social contract - nothing but a boot in the ass. It should be no surprise to anyone if they one day visit those multi-million dollar houses and apartments and slay the inhabitants. That's woe. That's how the woe shakes down.

I grew up in postwar Britain, albeit a decade after Sir Roger, and while I share his love of “the way things are”, the challenges since that somewhat idyllic time have changed and with them their demands. The grain of sand within the oyster of so-called comfort is conscience, and in this challenged world of extreme inequalities Conservatism is being forced by that voice of conscience to be disturbed. We cannot just lie in the comfortable bed of our own making. Conscience, like Christianity, is a compelling force and we need to readjust in the light of it. At the root of conservatism must lie service and, dare I say, sacrifice; and when such fine and noble qualities are exerted a new order can be established upon which society can resettle itself. That is where the future of conservatism must surely lie, in goodness and truth (as in self-honesty), both of which will spawn beauty as their natural flower.

It is such a pleasure to listen to these eloquent, intelligent gentlemen.

'For our viewers [conservatives], if you've said something once it's quite enough.' Haha, yes, that is why conservatives do not chant, rage, and seek to speak over their ideological opponents.

I teared up at that TS Eliot quote. This was an excellent conversation, thank you.

RIP.

"To be a harmless individual and to die having harmed nothing" is totally different from advertising oneself as harmless. The latter is a form of narcissism and disdainful virtue signalling

Great comment from Douglas about paying attention to what is right at one's doorstep. It seems that is the difference between conservatives and the Left: knowing the value of what one already has.

51:59 - He was right about the existential crisis in Brazil, and the popularity of his sort of thinking there in recent years. They elected an ultra far-right leader, with many very bigoted policies. He's so close to having a moment of clarity.

Both Sir roger and Douglas mentioned something that resonates with me , though each mentioned the subject in a different context. Douglas said he was in conversation with a women who travels the world viewing Temples but never visits English Cathedrals. I live in Thailand and not many have had as much experience of Temples then myself , English Cathedrals are superior in every way. Sir Roger mused on how the monestries were a focal point for learning, social gathering, well that is where Temples do win . They are a rich part of Thai life and give people a sense of belonging and togetherness. When any natural disaster strikes e.g. floods the input from those not affected is unbelievable.

As Professor Jordan Peterson has said Conservative and "The Left" are 2 different types of genetic personality. You can't have one without the other to function.

27:12 “…those who ought not to have a voice” and 28:10 “…those who are incapable of formulating a whole sentence” is exactly why Conservatives like Sir Roger find themselves under attack from the Left. It is brought entirely upon themselves and should be called out and ridiculed. And yet he has just cited Christ as his role model! The arrogance is exasperating, no doubt brought on by the presumed safety of the present company he is keeping.

As from the beginning, intellect vs. flesh. Ths simple dicotomy of life.