Identity Politics: Lionel Shriver & Douglas Murray | The Spectator 

I noticed that, too, and was very impressed with him. I like how she disagreed tactfully as well.

Yep, got that too. Very refreshing.

It's what grown ups do

It is _sad_ that a leftist is celebrated merely for _not_ being an intolerant and vicious arsehole, like the rest of their cult. So, she has retained the ability to have rational, reasonable and respectful debates. So what? She still voted for Hillary Clinton ("Vot for me, coz...I'm a woman! [and my husband's a rapist]), wants Trump out of office and subscribes to the same fundamental values. Her apparent reasonableness has nothing to do with virtue and everything to do with the sick nature of her ideology, resulting in yesterday's radicals being attacked by today's radicals. We've already seen it with Alan Dershowitz, Christine Hoff Sommers and Bret Weinstein. These people are the _progenitors_ of the concepts and attitudes that drive the SJWs and cultural Marxists of today. They are not victims, but perpetrators.

It's called active listening. Nowadays people interrupt, deny, belittle, ignore, get angry, attack, withdraw, personalise, misintetpret, judge etc Worse still because people don't like objectivity, they might even justify those behaviours because what they feel is more important than what you say.

I agree Douglas is a national treasure unfortunately unrecognised by many.

He's massive in homersexual community

@@daveerwin6981 quit being obsessed with your so called Community. Communitarianism is just another term for identitarianism. First learn to identify yourself as an individual, one who cannot be divided.

Laura Swartz well said Laura, wish people would stop doing that it’s almost as though they are saying you can’t admire Douglas Murray unless you are gay which is clearly ridiculous, firstly my own dad is gay and so such things matter to me in no way like MLK I prefer to judge someone on their character not on insignificant personal traits which the individual is born with. Except for overly high shrieking voices but that’s because it goes through me not because I dislike them for their high shrieking voice.

@@lauraswartz3781 he didnt even say it was his community, nor whether it was a good thing or bad

@Mario and you are a tit.

Love for ya mate I'm proud u feel like that! u Know I watch Boxing matches on youtube from b4 my time! Benn Eubank etc! u know Benn was a proud Union Jack waving Brit who fought like a lion and was in the army! He is a hero who done Britain proud!

@Mario No, didn't you read what he wrote: he was _born_ in England, that makes him a black British person. He wasn't born in Africa, he was born in Britian. He'd only be an African-British if he migrated from Africa.

@Mario I've been on holiday to Tunisia and Morocco a few times - sadly that's the fullest extent of my familiarity with Africa; it felt quite interesting being somewhere where my colour was viewed differently to here in Britain. I also remember visiting the West Indies for the first time many years ago and seeing white people speaking in West Indian accents; confused the hell out of me! Having traveled to a number of different countries over the years, I've found myself quite fascinated by the different perspectives on race and culture in those countries. Somebody called me a cis-male a while back; I chuckled because somehow I'd managed to survive all these years of my life without knowing that! I do think it's quite amusing (if maybe a little arrogant) of somebody to presume any sort of label or title for me without knowing very much about my background.

@Mario ​ (Lovin' this!) I've done a lot of research many years ago and I was surprised to discover a long time ago from my grandparents that I have Dutch, Scottish and West African forbears and my relatives and their families hail from Canada, Australia, America and Germany so I feel quite blessed having such a varied international background. As I said in my earlier comment, I do find it quite extraordinary when somebody presumes to tell me who I should be or what I should think. I certainly don't need to answer to some angry sounding person on the internet. I know one thing; I'll probably still travel. You're right though, I should visit more of Africa (it's sooo big!) I've often thought of checking out Gabon or Kenya or Tanzania; they look really interesting places and definitely don't fit the annoying mainstream narrative of "poverty and instability".

Yes I totally agree

Great

Black Philip I’m beginning to think it’s out of “my” or any individual’s hands, it needs the electorate, if still viable, to vote in parties who will remove the identity politics and political correctness out of society, start to treat people as individuals again regardless of race, religion, age, gender, sex orientation etc , start to forgive each other, start to listen to each other again without judgement. That has to come with cultural change , it cannot be enforced by law, that is where madness lies and totalitarian government results.

Black Philip what do you think we should do?

Black Philip i totally agree with you, I was suggesting it as the gentle “hopeful” adult way of dealing with things, sadly we don’t have gentle adults in positions of power, we have bullies and extremists. I believe that it has gone too far to be able to resolve this without violence being part of the outcome. I do not condone violence but the minute you mention it, you are accused of inciting it..... it’s becoming a dangerous world. My yellow vest is in the wardrobe.

He's gonna be in his prime in the next 20 years at least..

The testopause will slowly affect him.

You should still kick them though.

"but you can draw penises on them"

It's funny how everyone within the political and philosophical spectrum uses that phrase these days.. :)

@@chrisc7265 Lol thanks, you made me laugh, and there's not much that makes me laugh these days. 😄👍🏽 A friend of mine has a facemask with a print comprised of penises; and as he points out, "If anyone is close enough to see what they are, they're not properly social distancing."

Her novels are excellent too!

Him*

Absolutely agree.

No surprise here, he got a male name!

What is brilliant about her, she is awful. I've never been so repulsed by someone in a long time. Though I did just get through with 'We need to talk about Kevin', so I have a good excuse And she's obviously a closeted lesbian, I mean good grief. I guess I'm not surprised that she's anti-woke. Which I am too, and which almost makes me feel bad about it. She just doesn't like it because it cramps her style. That's all she cares about. I was fascinated and horrified by the novel, and now seeing her in person I don't think I've ever witnessed such an unabashedly self-centered person, from every pore in her body. Every thought, every sentiment, every utterance, is what do I want, what suits me, what pleases me, what annoys me. She's almost infantile. I never thought I'd see a woman who could top Ayn Rand in that regard, but she might have pulled it off. Anyway, I'm not a fan.

Whaaaat??? I didn't even notice I'm watching a 3 year old video!

@@bloodaid same. This video that says it’s about identity politics is actually about how socialists are actively weaponizing identity to destroy the system as we know it to usher in their Marxist utopia.

These two people display considerable political courage in taking on these issues in a serious and intelligent fashion. Keep up the good work.

Daniel Huset very true

@Stirgid Lanathiel i only stated a function of it, not the reason for IPs existence. so really no disagreements, bud.

@Stirgid Lanathiel "White Supremacy" in a country founded by White people is an oxymoron. Nations were established in order to obtain sovereignty, self-determination and their primary purpose is to protect and yes, privilege the people that founded them.

@Stirgid Lanathiel White is just a synonym for European, don't play dumb. Racial identity is just the one overarching various ethnic identities. Any nation's founders always have intention to secure existence and prosperity of "us and our posterity". Should Poland be more interested in Polish people than any others on this Earth? You have a completely skewed notion of racial identity. The problem is that only White people have managed to convince themselves that race is a meaningless concept, while everyone else drums their beats (e.g. South Africa and White farmers - if it was reverse it would be international scandal).

Agreed, there's an audience outside of London for this kind of debate, I wish they'd take stuff like this on the road. Enjoyed the talk.

I'll second that plea!

@@davidwalsh2008 I was able to see him talk when he was here in Auckland, New Zealand. It was the tour with Cornel West and not hugely interesting as a talk but I was already a huge fan. Douglas has a small but eager following over here. The state of our 'politics' over here is such that he would never be allowed back in the country as long as our un-elected PM is in charge.Since the Christchurch shooting, anyone right of Mao Tse Tung is being viewed with suspicion. It's utterly, totally ridiculous.

Haryan Gláeddyv Yes more Manchester venues

@jules valentine Sadly Manchester got the bug. 😕

I had the exact opposite response. "Those who are oppressed have no reason to become unoppressed." and then to argue that a if a charity cures the disease it 'represents' i then has to find some other way of still being relevant - I mean what utter nonsense. First recognise there is a disease and then what might cure it etc and yes if it is cured it may be hard for those involved in it all to still be relevant but these two are talking as if because of that possible negative outcome we should just allow that disease to cause all that suffering.

Point is racism and sexism ended at close of century. We've had black president and women millionnaires. What are they complaining about? Gays can marry now. They have everything now

@@daveerwin6981 "Point is racism and sexism ended at close of century." Was it during the millenium celebrations exactly as the clocks struck 12?

@@dicksplat2049 Which one of them said that we should should just allow the "disease" and where exactly?

@@tubetorpedo At the beginning. I couldn't get through the rest. If someone wants to talk about the issue of minority rights and they don't first acknowledge the history and suffering that has been endured by said people to gain rights then it shows either casual bigotry/racism at worst or a callous disregard for said history. Start with why these movements exist and recognise the history and need for such movements and who the oppressors were THEN you would move onto your argument that it has now warped into soimething else etc.

Black Philip pushed by the mainstream media, the left, the universities and schools, the so called elites. Control of speech and control of the way people think is ultimately very dangerous and we need to resist it.

NorCal OntheRight yes, mainly because other women vilify the women that do speak out as being transphobic and whatever other name they can come up with. I think men are just used to being hated at this point.

@NorCal OntheRight thats the point. Largely trans movement activists are men to women converts. These are the ones attacking women.. But as Lionel quite rightly pointed out, the real vociferous loud mouths are liberal, privileged often straight people, who feel a need to be heard and jump on the latest trend. I work with a young man, privileged, university graduate. He told me he's bisexual then said "I'm probably leaning more towards straight". I mentioned this talk to him. Specifically about the cancel culture - Germaine greer being told she's not a feminist because she won't accept that men can't have babies and ergo can't have periods. He SHRUGGED and looked at me as if to say... well you are wrong. Lmao. I had to explain the whole trans process to him as he DOESNT know what it entails. But then followed it with, "I have a few trans friends". As if thats enough to QUALIFY him as RIGHT. He attaches himself to every minority group he can, and advertises his own weaknesses and failings just like these two talked about, as if its enough in itself to characterize him. He quotes everything he sees on Twitter as fact, and takes large amounts of his time to explain to me why HISTORICAL FACT is a lie. This young man is UTTERLY BRAINWASHED, and genuinely believes everything he says to be true, moral, and right. Its quite depressing how closed his mind is for such a young intelligent man. But for the trans groups, women are their target because no amount of surgery or hormones will enable them to be women in the true sense of the word. Ie: motherhood. It is a form of envy. Its funny but so frustrating.

@@boudecia22 honestly i feel that ftm-trans people are far less active exactly because they're less visible in the first place. Men for the most part don't attack trans men in public discourse, discussions about bath rooms are almost exclusively about trans women, the fetishisation of trans people is mostly aimed at trans women and so on. Also, they often pass easier, which plays a part, too.

@@blackphilip8936 "And pushed by who exactly?" By Leftist leaders, politicians and spokespeople, exactly. "Who controls those information delivery systems? " The Leftist Media, Leftist politicians, George Soros, the public government-run schools, teachers unions. "And who benefits?" Leftist organizations, Leftist fund raisers & donors, Leftist politicians and the government institutions they instigated and run, like planned parenthood. But the main goal is the destabilization of society, which pushes more power into the hands of Leftist politicians, elitist families and donors who's goal it is to destroy America and it's constitution, so that there will be no middle class, only extremely rich and extremely poor. Then depopulation, so that the world can be more easily managed by the Elite, with no challenge to their power.

Haha, when he spoke about gay hardware, I was anticipating 'Lady Gaga Born This Way' and along it came!

Almost as good as Ann Coulter!

she's cool as fuck, innit?

She stiles me as a person who has arrived at a point in life where she is ready, willing, and able to make up her own mind and speak it clearly. A very attractive quality.

@@fredericstevens086 Well, there are some differences. Lionel Shriver: well thought-through arguments, respect to opponents... Ann Coulter: aggressivity, repetitiveness, narrow mind...

We always have been really, this is the latest form of our madness.

Going?

...going nuts 'by design'. !

Democracy is a lie. Nationalism with Socialist Health Care. End the Tech Monopolies.

@@autofill1566 Don't worry, it will. You might not like the way it does end, but it will end.

Yes sadly.

Perfect analogy. Was spot on.

How? He never offers any real solutions, except to beg the left to "stop and think what they are doing", or something to that effect.

@@thunderstruck1078 I like Douglas a lot but you are right. He more just says we ought to be focusing on more meaningful things. He doesn't say how we'll get there.

@@LuisCarruthers This is what being a conservative should mean: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ETe-fZFLkK0.html

@@LuisCarruthers Douglas is not the Second Coming. He doesn't have all the answers, nor should he. Stand up and speak out when you know something is false, or someone is hiding behind identity politics to further an agenda. Don't just go along to get along. Do this in your immediate circles. If all of us did this, it would pop the bubble that the hard left is living in.

@@cdcaleo That's a good point. There isn't some magic answer. I felt bad when Lionel Shriver mentioned 'pregnant people'. Recently I was in a situation where I should have spoken out against that but didn't. It's not someone else's job.

It’s actually just scratching the surface

Do not ever apologize for "poor English". You do not owe the English speaking audience anything. In fact you should post in your native tongue. We have Google Translate.

True. Robinson has been such a target. His appearance at the Oxford Union was very powerful.

Tommy Robinson believes in multiculturalism though. That what infuriates me about his supporters. They spend 90% of their time trying to convince lefties that they aren't racist rather than hammering home the point that by the end of this century white Brits will be a minority in their own country. So basically Tommy Robinson supporters are useless if they don't talk about this. What do you think Anthony ?

Tommy has the wrong accent. Sometimes uses the wrong words. Didn't go to university. The hate for Tommy is thinly disguised class hate.

They are both right!

@James Registe what an incredibly stupid comment

Plot twist: this was actually conducted at your place. Remember when you popped out for milk the other day? That's when the camera crew and guests went in. Don't worry, they washed the glasses after the event.

He is Homosexual ,sadly for us Women lol.

Just had a row with someone berating a bullying a British guy on RU-vid, who happens to be black, for not calling himself African british. In the end he came out with it... "I just want you to agree with me". There it is. But don't despair... the vast majority of people don't buy this crap. The medua just want you to believe that.