Downscaling Chronicles 9: Extron Scalers - Members only 240p. Will it beat the RetroTink 5x?

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Update: With help from ⁠‪@IamFearLezz‬ the downscaled video outputs somewhere between 58 and 59Hz. See in the comments and the next episode for further details • Downscaling Chronicles...
The Downscaling Chronicles is back! Featuring the Extron IN1606 in lieu of the DVS 605. Very little has been documented about Extron units that can downscale to 240p with custom EDID files. This was briefly mentioned in the Downscaler Wars (Episode 8 of the Downscaling Chronicles), but I had to try this for myself. Thanks to the contributors in the following posts for their discoveries:
/ sony_trinitron_pvm_253...
/ extron_dvs_605_dsc_240...
/ anyone_else_use_a_retr...
shmups.system11.org/viewtopic...
As you can see, there was very little information to work with, and I'm no stranger to downscaling rabbit holes. There were 2 programs I used to achieve 240p output resolutions: The EDID Manager to create the EDID.bin files, and the Product Configuration Software (PCS), to upload the resolutions. I checked the PCS hardware compatibility list in the following link and took a gamble on the IN1606: www.extron.com/product/softwa...
How will it compare to the current downscaling champion, the RetroTink5x, the runner up, Corio2 tvOne 750, or the everyman downscaler, the GBS Control?
Please note that Extron's software can only be downloaded by Extron Insider Members. I cannot, and will not distribute their software. I also can't guarantee all units on the compatibility list will accept custom EDID resolutions files, so try this at your own discretion.
⁠⁠‪@patisretroremixschannel9742‬ Thanks for creating the amazing Sega Genesis rendition of Return of the Mack! Give this man a sub!
Intro song: • Mark Morrison - Return...
#downscaling #crtgaming #240p
00:00 Intro
01:56 Setup and downscaling
04:21 Lag and downscaling
11:30 Score
12:20 Final thoughts

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Опубликовано:

11 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 30

@IamFearLezz 3 месяца назад

Very interesting video, thank you for your commitment and contribution to the topic. I've used PCS with the DSC 301 HD so something tells me a 240p super resolution will behave the same on both devices, given an EDID profile can be properly dialed in. The EDID tweaking is similar to the time I created a 240p super resolution output from my video wall processor (Datapath x4 clone). IIRC I used standard 480i timings as a baseline and seemingly managed to dial it in succesfully as I didn't notice any frame drops. I'll have to do some more testing however. I'll run a test on the DSC when able and let you know how it goes! 🙏

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I knew there had to be another Extron Insider out there haha. If you could check that would be awesome but only of time permits. I think the easiest way to see if the video is 60Hz or not is to film with your phone’s camera. If you have more control over the frame rate and shutter then even better to see if there’s rolling lines like in my case. Otherwise the sega DC 240p test suite in 480p with a scroll test would also be sufficient. I using the Corio’s timings as my template but there were different parameters to be entered ie no distinct back porch, just active pixel count. Thanks again for letting me know your experience with it!

@IamFearLezz 3 месяца назад

So I just did some experimenting on the DSC 301 but only had access to an older EDID Manager which only reads the modelines. I therefore had to default to an existing 1920x240 BIN file that I found online. Dialing in the picture controls was a bit tricky but the end result was unbelievably crisp. I couldn't notice any frame drops in person or viewing it through my phone's camera set to 1/60 shutter speed either. The only obvious drawback that I noticed is that the OSD displays so far to the side that it's unviewable on the CRT, but it was fairly easy to circumvent through the preset function and the PCS software. I'll definitely experiment some more and will try to verify the vertical refresh rate. Luckily, Extron's EDID manager is not necessary for creating/editing a 240p profile as the PCS software will read the BIN file regardless of its origin.

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

@IamFearLezz that is super helpful thank you! I hadn’t found a pre-existing 240p.bin res until I googled 1920 x 240 and found one on filthy pants’ blog. I’ll try this tonight and report back, that’ll tell me if it’s the IN1606 or if I just can’t make a decent EDID file lol

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

@IamFearLezz so I tried out the pre-made 1920x240p EDID. It’s coded as a VGA res which the IN1606 wouldn’t let me upload so I had to change it to HDMI 1.3 but I otherwise didn’t touch the resolution. The screen rolled vertically until I reduced the vertical picture from 240 to 233 pixels. It’s running at 14.6KHz and about 57fps according to my Extron scan rate indicator. When I film the CRT the shutter syncs somewhere between 57 and 58 so it’s getting close but there’s still frame skips. It’s an improvement from 55-56fps so maybe it needs a little more fine tuning

@IamFearLezz 3 месяца назад

@@MarcoRetro316 It seems like the two devices are reacting differently to the EDID. I did notice that the horizontal scanning frequency was rather low (

@Heymisterbadguy 3 месяца назад

Babe wake up, marcoretro just dropped a new banger

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

We’re back baby! Episodes will release a lot slower than the last round as I’m waiting for on-addon hardware for some other scalers. Thanks again for sticking around!

@joshuakelly9390 3 месяца назад

@@MarcoRetro316 Morphin time? Would love to see a shot at tink4k too

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

@joshuakelly9390 Yep the Morph 4K and OSSC Pro. Both will have a modular output DAC that I’m waiting on for it to be a complete package. I hope someone in my circle gets a tink4k for me to try

@AnyBitsFTP 3 месяца назад

Another great video. You are going to love the pro when you get it. it takes care of everything and its easy

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

My OSSC Pro is on the way and I can’t wait to test it. I hope the addon DAC can be purchased soon as that’s the missing piece of the puzzle so I can present it as a complete package

@Camtron47 3 месяца назад

Nice output image but that frame dropping is brutal.

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I really hope it’s my amateur EDID resolution crafting as all the stock HD resolutions were 60Hz. Who knows, if someone with more experience can enlighten me

@CRTscanlines Месяц назад

nice vid about downscaling alternative .😃👍 i have the extron dvi 300, and read the manual about SPPCP software. there is such as i/o setting. but no further information about it. need 2.5mm jack rs232 that i don't have. still curious about this devices if it can / not downscaling like that. 😀

@MarcoRetro316 Месяц назад

Thanks! I have the RGB DVI 300, I’m sure it’s the same as yours. I’ve used it with the SPPCP program and it was really only a GUI to control the unit which didn’t add anything that the unit can’t already do with it’s OSD menu and it didn’t lead to any back door methods of downscaling to 240p. They’re still great to use in a piggy back downscaling chain to drop resolutions to 480p to send into a GBS. They have 0-1 variable frames of lag, not bad.

@soundsonline796 3 месяца назад

Time and time again it’s proven that the scene needs a dedicated fpga downscaler device. Honestly I have lost interest in downscaling but if someone released a product Id buy it in a heartbeat.

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I doubt we’ll get a dedicated Downscaler anytime soon unfortunately. The best that I see my sights on are the OSSC Pro and Morph 4K which will have an addon analog output

@mutmut02_ 3 месяца назад

Very interesting indeed. Just a thought : could one of your DAC might be messing with the refresh rate ? It could be interesting to try using an IN1508, which is designed to output analog video and could do the same downscaling/picture manipulation. Happy that you've managed to bypass the Extron Inisder requirment :)

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I was hoping that would be the case, but when I ‘DACed’ the output using the HDMI to ypbpr converter, or through an HDMI to VGA converter and then the Extron RGB interface to combine sync, it was still 55-56Hz. I’m leaning towards it being my EDID resolution files but I felt I troubleshat all the 240p timings I could with no change to the vertical frequency. Such a shame the DVS 605 was defective as it was also analog output. If I come across another device on the PCS list then I may follow up with my results

@pezz8266 3 месяца назад

using Mistercast for this is a good option

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

For video, yes. I plan to feature Mistercast soon

@sonyx5332 3 месяца назад

The down scaler with the minimum input lag will always be my pick. To me it makes no sense to use a CRT if you're going to use a down scaler with a lot of input lag. So the RetroTink 5x and the GBS-C remains my top picks. 😎🍻

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

The sentiment was always to get your hands on whatever you could for 240p downscaling, but now that there’s more information out there about these, I have to agree; GBS-C for entry level, and the RetroTink 5X for those with extra cash that need the additional perks. If budget or 1080p input is a higher proprietary I’d still recommend any of the compatible Corio2 scalers. Let’s see how the OSSC Pro goes…

@youboob1996 3 месяца назад

You mentioned something I hadn't thought about with downscaling, which is line deletion verses line averaging. Can you explain which method you think looks best, and as of right now, which downscaler is your favorite in terms of image quality?

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I’ve flipped from team line deletion to line blending many times. I prefer the look of line blending as it works well on all video content. Line decimation looks very sharp and the scanlines ‘pop’ but sometimes looks wrong. It can result in vertical shimmer like I showed in the Dexx and RetroTink 5x episodes especially when downscaling 2D content that’s not a vertical integer upscale of 240p. But, if I had to choose, I’d go with the downscaler that has the most features before even thinking if it’s a line decimator or not. I’ve been using the Dexx and 5x in my setup so they’ve been my favourites and the next episode I’ll feature the OSSC Pro. I’m predicting it’ll be my new favourite as the Dexx has a unique feature of windowing 16:9 inside 4:3. It looks very ‘scanliney’ on my widescreen CRT when I get the TV to stretch it vertically to become proper 16:9 again. Hopefully this feature was carried over to the Pro and the latency was reduced to under 2 frames. But, there’s always an exception… If the Morph 4K eventually has 15KHz output, has the same features as the OSSC Pro and scales/blends, then it’s going to be tough deciding. Sorry for the long answer, TLDR: line blending looks better to me, but I use the deleting Dexx/Tink5x for now, which will probably be superseded by the OSSC Pro. Stay tuned!

@youboob1996 3 месяца назад

@@MarcoRetro316 Thanks for elaborating. I really like your downscaler series. I’ve been using an extron super emotia gx to downscale 480p games (pc emulation) to 240p on my CRT. I’m hoping to find something better. Maybe it will be the ossc pro? Looking forward to your video on that.

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

@youboob1996 ah the old but gold Emotia. I’ll hopefully have the OSSC Pro video done in a few weeks, I just have to wait for the analog output DAC for completeness, otherwise I’ll have to carry on without it. Thanks for tuning in