Welcome to the second instalment of our little journey into the world of Star Trek. This time we're watching the sequel to Wrath of Khan, and a film that still divides fans to this day. Join us!
It wasn't Spock's lack that frustrated McCoy; it was his repression, because it was obvious to McCoy that the emotions were there, for all of Spock playing pretend.
It is like male friends who are best buddies but insult each other and call each other the slang word for homosexual. They're buddies so they don't take those insults to heart.
Amok Time provides really great insight into how close Spock and McCoy really are. Vulcan tradition frowns on outsiders being present during a certain Vulcan custom, but Spock invites not only Kirk, but McCoy to accompany him. McCoy is every bit as important a friend to Spock as Kirk.
I never got any indication of hate. Spock sometimes infuriates McCoy but it's only because he cares about what Spock thinks. McCoy is typically calm and rational, especially in the face of enemies. He likes Spock and respects him, so, when Spock says something contradicts his view of morality, it really stings, and his guard is down so he explodes.
I agree with the Drinker’s take. I know this film wasn’t as good as Wrath of Kahn, but if you’re going to bring a character back, make it the endeavor of an entire movie, and have it cost the protagonist dearly.
The cameo was Kirk's Yeoman Janice Rand. Nurse Chapel was Roddenberry's wife Majel Barrett Roddenberry.
4 месяца назад
And Majel even went and did a cameo in Babylon 5 as a sort of burying the hatchet kind of thing to stop the fighting between ST and B5 fans. For a single episode she just draws all attention with her character.
Star Trek 3 made $87 million on a $16 million budget in 1984, which would mean a gross of about $200 million in today's dollars, and that's without a large foreign box office influence. So yes, it did quite well financially, but not as high as Wrath of Khan. It was also battling against film JUGGERNAUTS in 1984, which was a year of mega-hits: "The Terminator", "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom", "Ghostbusters", "Gremlins", "The Karate Kid", along with quite a number of minor hits and cult classics.
Spock and McCoy have one of the best frenemy relationships ever depicted. They deeply respect each other and often risk their lives for one another, but it often comes with frustration and bickering on both their parts. The trio of Kirk, Spock and Mccoy is the perfect harmony of lifelong friendship.
Shatner is hugely underrated. Sure, he doesn't disappear, he has a distinctive style but he can deliver great scenes and characters. He took his work seriously, and whilst he could be seen as selfish a lot of that could also be down to a tunnel vision on doing the best possible job. He thinks of himself as a professional. He thought focusing on the leads and doing his job was more important than being friends with the rest of the cast.
I love the Drinker's observation about the Enterprise being 'home' for Kirk. It's arguably one of the biggest differences that defines Kirk vs Picard. When the Enterprise is destroyed, it has a gravity for Kirk. When Picard's Enterprise is destroyed in Star Trek Generations, his literal response is to shrug and say "I'm sure they'll build another one", like the Enterprise had no meaning to him at all, it was just any old ship to him. Complete contrasts.
Yeah, Picard's home was the Stargazer. That was obvious in the episode where he was able to return to it. Picard never really appreciated the Enterprise. Probably because there were all those kids on board.
Yes, there was a whole episode and Kirk almost died for his friend to honor the customs, but also knew that Spock was at his most "embarrased" even as he is the most terrifying.
Amok Time is one of my favorite episodes. Spock is so consumed, he can't hold back in the fight, When he thinks Kirk is dead, then sees him at the end of the episode, Spock's reaction is what shows the friendship between the two. This one and The Tholian Web.
Exactly! Also according to cannon in the books Savick got pregnant during the Genesis finger scene(they didn't show after that but they implied it by having them passed out after)
I like that the guy that Uhrua locks in the closet is listed in the credits as "Mr. Adventure" EDIT: When kirk and crew pull up on the hostages , my friend and I always used to joke that Kirk shot that guy on "Klingon Bastard Setting"
That final scene with Shatner and Nimoy is so good. You understand how much Kirk values Spock and you know that this friendship means everything to him.
And you see a mirror image in Star Trek VI, when Spock takes a number of nearly un-Vulcan like actions to rescue Kirk and McCoy from the Klingon prison planet.
When kiirk and limited crew is dead to rights defeated by the Klingons, that was kirk’s actual, bonafide kobayashi Maru. Also, when he hears about the death of his son and falls backward, that was an accident that everyone just went along with. They talked about that in an interview a long time ago when the movie was still fresh in the theaters.
Ok, now I want a Critical Drinker version of Star Trek… ‘Space Misadventures….’ “Did you calibrate the teleporter” “Naw, it’ll be fine..” (Man teleports in all SpaceBalls style, and can either be cheeky and Mel Brooks’ inspired, or just sheer dark humor, and Lovecraftian horror, and vaguely reminiscent of ‘The Fly’.)
The touching of fingers wasn't simply to keep within the ratings boundaries. The touching, possibly with a telepathic component, was established in The Original Series. Between Sarek & Amanda in _'Journey to Babel'_ and between Spock & the Romulan Commander in _'The Enterprise Incident.'_
The only Klingon that survives is played by JOHN LAROQUETTE. This was made while the original Night Court was on the air and he was winning the Emmy seemingly every year.
@@patricklee7241 Seriously? _The Voyage Home_ is widely regarded as one of their better flicks. The most damning criticism I've seen is that it seeded the idea that _Star Trek_ should try to be both mainstream and _Star Trek._
People deep into the Star Trek lore (not that there was a lot of it when this movie came out, just 79 television episodes and two movies) got a lot thrown into this one. Ponn Far was from the episode 'Amok Time', where Spock returns home to mate or die trying, and the scenes with the Vulcan priestess at the end here evoke that episode strongly. Spock being able to project his consciousness into another person was seen in 'Return To Tomorrow', where he briefly shares his mind inside Nurse Chapel's body. The Enterprise destruct sequence was first activated in the episode 'Let That Be Your Last Battlefield', exactly as it is seen in this movie with the same destruct codes. There are Tribbles in the bar Dr McCoy visits, making their first live-action return since the classic episode 'The Touble With Tribbles'. Former series regular Grace Lee Whitney as Janice Rand is seen in the lounge as the beaten Enterprise returns to spacedock. There are others, but you get the idea. One wonders if at least some of these kisses to the past were director Leonard Nimoy's idea, as he obviously remembered them from the TV show, but on a macro level them being sprinkled throughout the movie does give a greater sense of this being a massive universe that encompasses more than just the events of one movie.
Christopher Lloyd is an epic Klingon. I don't know if he was trying to play it completely straight, but his Lloyd-ness shone through. He was like Bill Murray in Z2, everything he did made me laugh. I imagine whenever he was at a meeting with other Klingons they would burst out in chuckles as soon as he left the room.
The last sentence of this comment is right up there with anything I have ever read on here since YT’s inception. It will forever be criminally underrated in terms of likes 👏🏾😁🙏🏾
I think some people misinterpret the Spock/McCoy dynamic like they actually hate each other when it seems to me to be the complete opposite. They have a somewhat begrudging respect for each other both as friends and colleagues. They may butt heads and snipe at each other but its more like playful jibes than actually hate filled insults. I even think the writers of TNG didnt get it when they tried to replicate the dynamic with Polaski/Data but she came off as almost racist treating Data like a toaster that can speak than like a sentient being. McCoy clearly has massive respect for Spock but his attitude and logical nature just upset McCoy on occasion when it came to the safety and welfare of crew members, especially Kirk.
I completely agree. There's a fondness for Spock behind Bones' gruffness. Also, it could be argued that nobody is closer to Spock or knows him better than Bones after babysitting Spock's Katra!
Definitely agree on pulaski vs data. I think some of that may have been on the actress. Though I think they did a much better job with Trip and Tpol in Enterprise.
completely agree with the Polaski/Data dynamic, they just wrote it as bad blood style conflict between the two, which made Polaski so unlikeable. McCoy and Spock never disliked or hated each other, alot of McCoys jibes were playfully playing up against Spocks logic and lack of emotion, they disagreed frequently, but thats why Kirk trusted them to provide him with differing opinions and options, and for the trio to become friends as they respected each others views.
It's a shame Dr. Pulaski didn't get to stick around into the better seasons of TNG. It was definitely possible to write that dynamic better and get a character arc out of it, and probably end up with a more interesting character than Dr. Crusher. What we got in season 2 definitely didn't work though.
Regarding the Spock/Saavik 'sex' scene, one of the most overlooked things is how Saavik looks down in shame at the end of the movie when Spock looks at her (while examining the entire crew after having his katra back). A wonderfully subtle nod to what the viewer can easily assume to be some heavy sexual activity. If you need more proof, the original writeup of ST4 had Saavik pregnant, which is why she stayed on Vulcan during the movie, but they wrote that out. It is also worth noting their hand play can be very erotic for a Vulcan due to their telepathic proclivity. So, a lot was said in a clean and subtle way. Much better than the overdramatic teens in space you get from JJ.
Moreover, the original write up of ST 6 had the Kim Cattrell character being Savvik--which would have made her betrayal of Spock (and his almost-human level of rage at its discovery) more understandable, coming as it would have with a character he'd bonded with across numerous years and several mating encounters.
@@rileyrebel129this got shot down, and I really wish Saavik was used in 6. It would have been a much bigger gut punch. Meyer's first instinct was correct.
I understand Maulers issue with Krug not being personal enough to Kirk as a villian.... right up unil he orders Davids death. Kirk not knowing his name is no longer an issue... I don't need to know the name of the murderer of my child (Shatners perfformance in that scene is as good as Spocks death scene) for it to suddenly become more personel. Kirk shows his hatred and anger for the rest of the film. He completley sacrifices his home to hurt Krug and weaken him. Also Mauler is lacking context with The Undiscovered Country really hammering home how personel Kirk's hatred of the Klingons became because of the death of his son which is fair.
Spock-"Jim, they're dying." Kirk-"Let them die!" and Kirk's log "I've never trusted Klingons and I never will. I can't forgive them for the death of my boy." ST 6
The self destruct code for the Enterprise is the exact same sequence used in the third season episode, LET THIS BE YOUR LAST BATTLEFIELD...except that in that episode the countdown was only 30 seconds.
Its weird hearing MauLers critique on a movie from 38 years ago where fans in their late 20's, 30's and up, have talked about to infinite . The destruction of the Enterprise, how and why, was never an issue, the ship is damaged from the last movie, a sitting duck. The Klingons thankfully didn't destroy a nacelle that would have been depressing, it was Kirk (the father) who ends it. What an iconic sacrificial scene. That whole scene is bulletproof as is most of the film.
Yeah I agree with Drinkers take on it, having watched the original series and then the films, the ship felt as much a part of it as the crew and I remember it being a huge big deal to the audience in the cinema. As mentioned, the latest version just made the ship practically disposable.
David's death is shocking in a matter of fact sort of way. You rarely see death being depicted that way. Terminator The Sarah Connor Chronicles had a death in the 2nd season similar to this.
That show is super underrated. I get that some people don't like what it does to the Terminator lore (although there's been much worse done since with it), but it does some remarkably good things, too.
I have no issues with the enemy just being a random Klingon. I doesn't always have to be personal, in fact I think that makes the Universe look small if every bad guy is someone Kirk knows. Also, when it comes to Klingons there are more or less only three options. Kor, Koloth and Kang could have been the bad guy but they have completely different personalities and are far too iconic to just kill them off in this movie. That and much more important the trio wouldn't have been in DS9 doing badass stuff.
Pon Far: This is established in the Original Series. I think it's mentioned in the commentary for ST4 that Savik does indeed mate with Spock on Genesis, and the resulting pregnancy is why she doesn't join them when they leave Vulcan.
21:19 She was Yeoman Rand in TOS. The actress, Grace Lee Whitney, and the bosses had disagreements and she was out of the show. She's the transporter operator in TMP, too.
Loved this - and like Drinker, this does hold a special place in my heart and I prefer it to The Voyage Home myself. Btw, the character the camera lingers on is actually Yeoman Janice Rand played by Grace Lee Whitney, not Nurse Chapel. Rand appeared in ST-TMP but not ST-TWOK.
Just looked up the official self destruct sequence. According to Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise: The code "0-0-Destruct-1" would trigger a total warp core detonation, whereas The code "0-0-Destruct-0", as we see here, would cause lesser damage to the ship that rendered it a useless hulk. Different stages of "destruction", I guess. As I said in chat: Merely Dead, and Really Most Sincerely Dead.
Nichelle Nichols' role was meant to be larger in the original script where she escapes the authorities to get to Sarek in the vulcan embassy. which would then have explained her appearance on Vulcan at the end.
"IF I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul" through the entire story he never hesitates, just as in part2 Spock doesn't hesitate to run into a warp reactor to save the ship!!! 2 and 3 are 2 sides to a coin and I think there perfect, also the automation system/ battle scene DOES make sense, everyone forgets the Enterprise is BARELY patched together they repaired the damage (stopped energy fires, hull breaches etc) but in no way was the ship more than 20% functional. Scotty needed 2 to 8 weeks in space dock to get the ships systems working with unlimited replacement parts... it was held together by duct tape when they fight the bird of prey
Yeah, but it's still so fast the victim barely has time to process it. See, MY disruptors take HOURS to vaporize you, while making your entire nervous system FEEL LIKE IT'S ON FIRE! Most people die from the agony WAYYYY before they turn to subatomic particles! (Alondro and Lord Freeza geta long splendidly...)
Absolutely love these commentaries. They remind me of when I introduced my brother to the Star Trek films and watched him turn into a Trek fan in real time. Please do continue doing these ASAP!
This was a nice viewing, with great commentary, thanks Drinker & Mauler. i was never a big Trek fan, the series did not run in Sweden when I was a kid, the big thing in Sweden at that time was Space 1999. It wasn't till much later I started watching Star Trek. But it's nice looking back at the movies with you guys.
It's interesting to see Mauler watch the original crew without having digested all of the original series. So, as a layman, he's missing context with his opinions. Whereas I'd bet his perspective on say the Vulcan swx scene would be different as I feel it is very on brand and fits with established lore. I think, for me, not having watched Buffy, this would be akin to if they made Buffy films with that cast and how I'd react based solely on what I knew. To Drinker's Point about continuity, I really appreciate how much series lore appears in these films. Yes...keep going!
I was probably one of the only people that saw this movie more than 40 times in the cinema. I was only 14. Not nearly as good as WOK, but definitely underappreciated for it was.
The captain of the Grissom being Kirks friend would have increased the “small world” effect which you really don’t want. Grissom being nobodies gives you a sense of the world being real.
There was a TNG novel, I think Genesis Wave, that explained that the Genesis device worked just fine, and Protomatter was no issue at all - it was the fact that Khan detonated the device in a nebula rather than on an existing planetary body as intended, which overtaxed the Genesis wave and made the resulting planet unstable (too much energy used to pull the nebula gases together which left insufficient resources to finalize the planet). The proof was that the Regula I cave was still flourishing even in the TNG era. The concern was that a Genesis device could be made with, basically, off the shelf technology in the 24th century, and was far too dangerous (as the Borg could make one that instantly assimilated a populace). So Starfleet just kept Genesis under wraps as a "public failure." Also dovetails with Picard Season 3 where the Genesis II device is hidden at Daystrom Station. Also, the destruction of the Klingon moon Praxis in Undiscovered Country was attributed to the Klingons experimenting with a Genesis device of their own, which failed miserably and almost ruined their home planet (which explained why the Klingons initially turned away aid). This scared the Klingons off such research and motivated the Federation to attempt peace overtures to avoid further research on it.
A great outing with lots of keen comentary. Two nitpicks tho: 1. MauLer criticized the space battle by saying he wished there'd been a line earlier to establish the stakes for the Enterprise trying to go into combat in its crippled state. The script DOES have it. He (and Drinker) missed it. When they first get on the bridge of the stolen Enterprise.... Scotty: "The energizer's bypassed like a Christmas tree, so don't give me too many bumps." Kirk: "No promises." So when Scotty has to tell Kirk after the Klingon salvo that they're dead in the water, it DOESN'T come out of nowhere. The script set it up. 2. When MauLer asked if Pon Farr was established canon, Drinker tells him no. Which is odd for a ST fan to say, as the OS episode that established Pon Farr ("Amok Time") is one of the more famous ones. I suspect that is why the script felt the need to allude to it, even if it served no narrative purpose and the target demographic for the film precluded overt sexual behavior. TOS fans would've immediately asked how a Vulcan can go through decades of suddenly growth without having to mate every 7 biological years.
Mauler not being a Star Trek fan makes his synopsis of Into Darkness even more impressive 👏 As a huge Trek fan since ‘89 I can tell you he didn’t miss a beat and probably watched it through entirely 3-4 times. Love your work fellas 🤙🏻
Looking forward to you both watching "the one with the whales." Although the odd-numbered Star Trek movies weren't as well-regarded back in the day, after all the rubbish we've been exposed to with NU Trek, I think as a series of movies, they all stand up pretty well. Even the dreaded Star Trek V has some good moments and quotable dialogue. Honestly, we didn't know how good we had it. Great discussion, guys.
My personal ranking of the Star Trek films: Wrath of Khan (II), Undiscovered Country (VI), Voyage Home (IV), Search for Spock (III), five and one do not exist for me. Let the flame war begin!
1:24:10 One of my favourite jokes from an old Star Trek fan mag (from the early 90’s) has this scene (with Kirk and crew watching the Enterprise burning up in the atmosphere), and Kirk says “My god bones … what have I done?” .. and Bones replies “I don’t know Jim, but don’t tell the insurance people we blew it up!” .. And Scotty chimes in “Aye Capp’n .. tell ‘em the Klingons did it!” 🤣
To prime MauLer for the TNG movies, I'd recommend the following 5 episodes: - Season 3.26 and Season 4.01 - The Best of Both Worlds, Parts 1 and 2: Covers Picard's ordeal with the Borg and why he's driven for revenge in First Contact. - Season 4.02 - Family: Picard visits his estranged brother and family after his Borg encounter, giving context to the start of Act 3 in Generations. - Season 6.26 and Season 7.01 - Descent, Parts 1 and 2: Data is given an emotion chip by his brother, Lore. Gives context to First Contact and Nemesis.
I shall now add scenes with David and Kirk! David, "We'll have plenty of time to get to know each other! I'm retiring in 2 weeks!" Kirk, "..." David, "And I just bought a boat! I named her "Father and Son Forever"!" Kirk, "... ... ..." David, "And I could have taken a really safe final assignment, but I'm gonna explore this unstable planet! What could possibly go wrong?" Kirk, "Ok, you know what you're doing." ;D
Pon Far is not new for this movie, it was featured in an original Star Trek episode, Amok Time, 2.01, which explained that Vulcans have a mating season every few years, and Spock needed to return to Vulcan to sort his issue out. This was also referenced in the Simpsons episode where the Mensa chapter takes over Springfield and Comic Book Guy attempts to impose sexual rules based on Vulcans, saying that people should only breed once every seven years. "For many of you, this will mean much less breeding. For me, much much more."
You guys were talking about manuevering the ship in the dock... Being an officer in the Navy now, this is equally true of sea going ships. Even a small hundred foot patrol boat takes time to move around. It makes me appreciate the "nautical" aspect of Star Trek even more.
22:09 @Drinker, they're staring at Chekov like he's an alien because the Cold War is going on between America and Russia, and this foreign dude with a Russian accent is asking people where he can find nuclear vessels, which is totally not suspicious or weird at all
isnt the story the police motorbike rider was a real police guy, who wasnt really aware they were filming a motion picture, as crazy as it sounds, so Chekov ends up seeming very weird to him, but hey it was San Fransisco, Im sure Gary can tell you that place is just weird :)
"You know what movies average out to be really good? The first six Star Trek movies!" -Fry Dare I say; 1 is alright, 2 is great, 3 is good, 4 is really good, 5 is ehh, and 6 is great.
I love the conceit that the Klingons in this one aren't entirely bad, from their point of view, although obviously they cross the moral event horizion eventually. Kruge mentions at several points his theory that Genesis is a secret weapon, no matter the good intentions the Federation ascribe to it, so there's a genuine empathy for the character there. He thinks he's stopping his enemies from creating a weapon that could decimate the galaxy. He refers to them as genocidal maniacs for even creating a device that can wipe out all life on a planet and 'replace' it. Until he goes too far and starts killing hostages, there's arguably a real sense that what he's doing, he's doing for moral reasons - albeit from a typically Klingon perspective.
The Leonard Nimoy directed Treks; cast was not in the martial uniforms Nimoy hated, Spock and McCoy did not bicker, and the crew members had separate tasks.
I've always maintained that ST3 is a retelling of Heracles rescuing Theseus from his chair of forgetfulness in the underworld. It follows a lot of the beats, whether they meant it to or not.
You were 100% on point on why Nimoy came back. He found a new love for the character during Khan, and he was given the director chair for this one. As a result of their contracts, this is why Shatner was handed the director's chair for Final Frontier. He just got really hosed on that one due to budget hell.
It certainly would have been a powerful and tragic moment if Kirk tried to “cheat” fate, took a risk in hopes of saving Spock, and the bold gamble blew up in his face, getting David killed. It wouldn’t have been a deliberate choice on Kirk’s part to sacrifice one in favor of the other, but a situation where his long-shot wasn’t enough
Drinker and Mauler. When Khan came out being a fan of TOS. Spock dies and we waited possibly 3-4 years. This is my all time favorite. Spock's return. FYI still today I use as one of my password Kirks final destruct code 000 destruct 0. Blowing up NCC 1701 after for me was iconic and traumatic 😂 I watched TOS on its first run and am die hard Trekker since I was 6.
This was great and I'm looking forward to the next 3 films. A couple details to clear up in Star Trek lore that you guys brought up: Spock's pon farr: The first one happens during puberty but it continues to happen to vulcan males every 7 years. This was established in the original series episode Amok Time. If they don't do the duty they literally die, that was the tension in the scene and why it would have made more sense if Savak had done the deed with him. As far as the klingon boarding party not knowing about the countdown but the captain did, at this point in history there aren't universal translators in everyone's brain like in The Next Generation era, at this point there's a universal language similar to Star Wars "galactic basic", but (at least for klingons) only high ranking people bother learning it and the rest of the population speaks their native language (Klingonese).
