There are already several courses using Disney's sequel trilogy as the example of how not to write a story. There's one class from Stanford that has videos online to view.
@@graylykan2739 No doubt those people are out there. Just as there are disagreeable people on every topic. But it's dangerously cynical and lazy for studios to reflexively paint any criticism that way. That is toxic behavior, not to mention abuse of a power imbalance. Millions of people correctly see dreck for what it is. No PR spin can change it.
I love how quotable the disney sequels are. Such gems as: “They fly now” “Im rey skywalker” “ Capture the droid if we can, but destroy it if we must.” It truly was a film of time
As a life-long sailor, the part where she, a woman who has never even _seen_ an ocean before, just sails on a jury-rigged dinghy through a storm like it's nothing boiled my piss.
As someone who has sailed only 2x in lake michigan on clear days. I totally agree even with 2 people that shit is fucking hard. Even on a clear day that water is no joke even a mile off shore.
@@ItoHiyori Yes, because who wouldn't want to make out with the emo psychopath that murdered his own father in cold blood and killed and hurt god knows how many other innocent people along the way?
Rey is currently possessed by Palpatine who took over her body after being struck down by his granddaughter as he intended her to do exactly that, and stole the Skywalker surname for himself as a final insult to Anakin and his bloodline being extinguished for good. In the end, Palpatine ultimately won.
Rey's character is literally "knows everything and is loved by everybody". That's it. No flaws, no weaknesses, no need to learn and overcome obstacles. There's nothing else to her.
When she finishes Han Solo's sentence after 5 minutes of meeting him in TFA, it's the kind of cringe writing you would see in a bad anime filler episode.
I like that they touched on her first experience with rain and within five minutes show her swimming. My 10 year old daughter was confused about that in theaters.
The most baffling thing is how Hollywood forgot the basic rules of screenwriting. I'm an indie screenwriter, and the first thing you learn is to give your characters a "character spine". Basically a need and a want, and only when they overcome their need, will they get their want. That's what most people register as a flaw in a character. Rey never had this. And this was something I learned in film school in Los Angeles. I break this stuff down on my channel too. It's just insane to me how something 1st semester students have to master is being ignored now by massive productions.
@@guyincognito1406 Oh, I met plenty of those types too. Usually the teachers never gave them more than 5 minutes of attention because no feedback would ever get through that wall of narcissism. Some did wiggle their way into writing rooms with the right politics... (unfortunately).
@@guyincognito1406 And there's too many of them working on the story. Even if you have 1-2 guys in this movie credited as the writers, they get feedback from pretty much anyone in a boardroom and even the shareholders
Making a character like Rey the face of your films is like a very successful band putting their touring musicians at the front of the stage while they play behind them
You don't know anything about Rey after three movies? She is stunning and brave, Drinker. STUNNING AND BRAVE!! What else would you need to know about her?
The weirdest part is that she is introduced so well. You follow her daily routine, eking out a meagre existence as a scavenger, endlessly waiting for something, and with little to no dialogue we get her; an excellent example of show don't tell. And then she meets and starts to interact with the other characters of the film and suddenly she's just inexplicably good at everything, immediate trusted and liked by everyone, her only personality trait is that she's vaguely amicable and curious, and people constantly complement her even as she's stealing their roles in the narrative; an excellent example of a Mary Sue. Like everything in TFA: excellent set ups and initial ideas and technical details, utterly squanders on a bland, derivative, noncommittal story that goes nowhere and is then further torpedoed by the horrendous sequels. Just sad.
That opening segment with her is easily the best part of the film. The only time the film actually slows down and we get to know a character. Rather than the rest of the movie where we are just running from set piece to set piece with no time to explain.
Right? I think its precisely why I liked the beginning of The force awakens. She was interesting and mysterious and seemed to do what so many of us do,struggle in daily life. She was relatable Then as you say, she met other characters and instaed of letting her grow and developing her, they immediately turned her into Mary Sue,because they couldnt wait to let us know their new character is the best at everything
@@svetlanaandrasova6086 All this goes to show that, like everything else in the Disney Star Wars trilogy, Rey had so much potential that was utterly wasted. I remember my sister joked that Rey seemed like a Mary Sue sometime after we saw Force Awakens, and while I was waiting for Last Jedi to come out a year later and other people were discussing Rey's Sueness, I remained hopeful that in TLJ we would actually get to see Rey training and earning her abilities, discovering her past, building her relationship with the other characters, forming a pupil-mentor relationship with Luke, and developing as a protagonist. But while I wasn't ready to agree with those that criticized her in TFA yet, as I personally thought it was a bit too early to call her a Mary-Sue at the time, I wasn't going out of my way claiming everyone who criticized her was a misogynist. Unlike J.J. "They're afraid of strong women" Abrams. But then TLJ came out in 2019 and.... well, look how *that* turned out.
Even that could have used tweaks, like show her using the force in a really ham-fisted, untrained way, say parkouring around the ruins. Which in turn could be a flaw with her having to unlearn her bad habits, which anyone in martial arts (or anything else related to muscle memory) can relate to. Visually interesting special effects with show-dont-tell storytelling as she flips around scavenging, maybe some near misses. Aye it's just so much wasted potential, which really makes the Disney films frustrating to watch.
@@Klaaism I like that idea a lot. In fact - apart from Rays inexplicable expertise - the way the force is presented is one of my favorite parts of TFA. All the rest of the worldbuilding is bland to outright horrible (like the whole move feeling like it takes place in a single solar system...), but the force powers feel genuinely creepy and otherworldly, which is fitting as we mostly see dark-side powers. Adding your idea to it would really take that to the next level.
A good quote should make the audience know who and what the character is. “I am Iron Man.” Showcasing Tony’s embrace of his new role in society, as well as his superiority complex and narcissism. A quote memorable enough to bookend his life in his series. “Rey Skywalker.” She takes the name of someone she knew and abandoned in the span of maybe a week. In that week, all he did was deny her training, grumble at her, and teach her things to try to get her to give up. This quote doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t change who she is, what she does, her responsibilities. Heck, it doesn’t even give us an idea what she’s going to do next. We knew by the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke was going to try to train more Jedi. What will Rey do? We assume the same thing, but only because that’s what’s “supposed” to happen next. Really, does Rey seem like someone who can teach?
if shes female in Disney , she can teach , fly the Falcon , kick ass , use the PanderStone , play the piano better than me , Rey can literally do anything, anytime , anywhere , better :)
Actually, the ending of RoS had Rey in the desert. What I got from that ending was her going to be a hermit like Kenobi was. How many students did Kenobi train while in the desert?
@@mrbigglezworth42 The ashes of StarWars will probably have Rey as a : "key to everything" for the Jedi , not that I'll know because these things are impossible to sit through... crazy to see companies slow train wreck these days , it's strange and bizarre...
Harvey Keitel had a magnificent line in Pulp Fiction, written & directed by the master Quentin Tarantino: "Just because you are a character it doesn't mean that you HAVE character!" Little did Tarantino know this little line would fit Rey Palpatine & the majority of the Disney SW characters in a nutshell.
@@docsavage8640 Welcome to modern Hollywood. Although, I still find his movies far better entertainment than Disney Star Wars, with the exceptions of Andor and maybe Mandalorian.
*I always thought* Kylo was gonna move away from the dark side and Rey towards it.. would be cool if by the third film - the heroes and villains had been switched.
Jar Jar fucking Binks has more character depth than Rey goddamn Palpatine. Hell, even the mouse droid that Chewbacca scares off on the Death Star probably had more depth than Rey when compared.
Quotes become great when they tie us to characters we've come to care about and remind us of the context in which they're spoken. "I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse" means little without the story Michael told Kay about Vito and the band leader. Add in the scene with the horse head and it's clear the phrase means, "I'm going to kill him if he doesn't do what I ask." The last line of Casablanca is referencing the fact that these two guys, who clearly have a 'friendship' of sorts throughout the movie and like each other on a personal level, have both made a choice to throw off the cynicism they've been living with the past few years and fight together for a just cause. Their earlier relationship was all wrapped up in that cynicism. Now it's something new and better. If you just read those lines to someone who didn't know the context, they wouldn't seem so great either. To a fan, they're so tied that when you think of them, you "hear" them in the actors' voices. You remember the scenes where they said them and parts of the movies related to those words. It can even be objectively a bad movie if the delivery worked. Look at "Street Fighter". We remember "OF COURSE!!" and "For me, it was Tuesday." because Raul Julia decided to have some fun and ham up the role as only he could. The point is the quotes are a byproduct of the connection we make with the story and characters. Nobody really did that with Rey because there really wasn't anything there. There could have been. The seeds were planted. Rian Johnson poured weed killer on them.
Some quotes are so epic we know instantly where they came from and even smile as we're reminded of the whole story around them. "Do you feel lucky, punk?" "I coulda been a contender!" "We're not in Kansas any more!" "You shall not pass!" Rey has nothing like this... in fact, her quotes are more likely to make you ANGRY as you remember how flat and disappointing everything was.
Perfect example of your point that even a bad/cheesy film can have character and memorable quotes: "STOP eating my sesame cake!" The film it comes from is an epic turd. Yet it still gives insight into the personality of the character who said it.
Sad Chris used to call out bad movies. I loved his Hilariocity videos dissecting a bad film. But he got all corporate friendly and said he refused to be negative ever again. Haven’t watched him since.
It's a respectable strategy in that he's 5-year-planning himself into awards ceremonies and doesn't want to be seen as the jerk among other directors, I get that. It's just a shame that he kept his channel going under the guise of being the same destination when it's a pale imitation of its past purpose
@@jonbell3177 A film critic/commentator really has to review good and bad across the board. He's using fatherhood as an excuse as not to piss off his meal tickets. He's lost all autonomy. Picking and choosing the _sure thing_ is not only a cuck move, it's also compromised his integrity.
@@jonbell3177 Fatherhood had the opposite effect on me - it made me that much more intolerant of cynical garbage like the SW sequel trilogy. I feel like I have *more* obligation to call out, and steer my kids away from, this kind of slimy, insincere, malicious incompetence.
The best thing about TFA was the introduction to Kylo Ren and the whole Millennium Falcon escape sequence on Jakku. That was it. I checked out when they decided that you could jump to hyperspace from inside another ship
Rey was effectively created to replace the legacy of the Skywalker name. Instead of Anakin Skywalker redeeming himself and defeating Emperor Palpatine and then his son Luke successfully rebuilding the Jedi Order, they ended up bringing Palpatine back from the dead so that he could be defeated by Rey and had Luke's attempt to rebuild the Order fail. Now they are planning on new films where Rey is rebuilding the Jedi Order. All of this just takes a large, steaming turd on the legacy of the Original Trilogy and that just leaves me with feelings of sadness.
I was about 10 years old when 'Empire' was released. I don't remember negative things being said about it. I do remember long, long lines at movie theaters, the "Wait...Luke's father is WHO?!?!?" reactions, and people seeing it multiple times.
I was a 19 when Empire was released and Chris was right, the reviews were lukewarm to positive at best. While critics jumped on the Star Wars bandwagon in 1977, they seemed loaded for bear in 1980. Top critics that I read acknowledged Empire's groundbreaking special effects, but were mystified by the story's structure and the cliffhanger ending. Even worse, the publisher of Cinefantastique- the elite Sci-Fi/Horror film magazine at the time- HATED Empire and wrote a scathing review. Thankfully, Empire's critical standing would change after Return of the Jefi.
@Abraham-xi9ep That's right. I remember when Lucas and producer Gary Kurtz wondrously stated they planned to produce possibly 9 films. I don't think even high brow critics understood this at the time. Fortunately, many people (and some critics) close to Sci-Fi fandom understood that Empire was a darker, richer chapter in an expanding saga.
It’s genius in comparison if you consider all the metaphysical meaning behind it. Sand isn’t just sand, it’s the reminder of his upbringing as a slave.
Really good point. I mean, we rag on and meme to death that sand rant, but we REMEMBER it. Everyone immediately knows what you're talking about, who he's talking to, why he's saying what he's saying. We know the speech/rant/quote. It's impactful enough that its endured. Compare that to the MOST memorable quote from The sequel trilogy "Somehow, Palpatine Returned"
@@Paulafan5 It's not that the line was an unnatural sentiment, but that it was very blandly and matter of factly written. Almost all the dialog in the prequel trilogy was stiff and wooden like that, getting the character's motive and desires across but often with more words or more formality than would actually fit the character's persona. Lucas's writing for the OT was stiff like that too, but he wasn't _the legendary Star Wars director_ at the time so the actors were more likely to question the wording and propose/adlib small changes for their characters, like Han Solo saying "I know" in response to Leia saying "I love you". Basically, the Star Wars prequels are mostly good ideas and the execution failures are mostly down to insufficient revision. Star Wars sequel trilogy are a combination of incompetence on the part of most staffers and active maliciousness on the parts of Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson.
Can you imagine a situation where Rey had to deal with a problem with conversation and diplomacy? What would she say? What would she do? How many wars would she start failing?
Regarding Stuckmann. I think she knows what he is talking about but is so intent on breaking in as a filmmaker that he won’t say anything that could ruffle feathers in the bubble he wants to join. He is like Campea in a way….just not vulgar and full of self hatred.
Being a _brown-nose_ in this manner will backfire. He's forgetting that his viewers on You Tube are also the same people who buy movie tickets. Audiences are tired of being sold out.
I used to really enjoy stuckmann’s reviews a couple of years ago. They were insightful and had unique perspectives. However, I've noticed a shift towards a more vanilla and predictable style. While I respect his hustle and wish him well in the industry.If his reviews are a prediction of what his movies will be like, it’s just not my cup of tea.
The most telling part of what passes for Rey's character is that scene in TLJ where she looks deep into herself and sees...nothing. No light. No darkness. Just a kind of spiritual void she interprets as endless Reys starting at each other. Forever. Just a nonentity lashing out in fear and anger at it's own lack of belonging.
The best character moments for rey were her seeing stuff for the first time. The "so much green" line I thought was perfect. However. She was referring to the green screen not trees.
in a genre absolutely overflowing with great female characters ... organa, ripley, conner, ivanova, aeryn sun, Vala Mal Doran, Uhura, Roslin, Thrace, Delenn, T'Pol, Amidala, Servalan, Deering .............. Rey Palpatine stands out as a soulless, featureless, nonentity with the character development of an amoeba other than the instant ability to the BESTETS EVAH at anything and be a smug pain while doing it. bizarrely intended to be superior to all of the above ....... !
In Episode 7, I was intrigued by Rey and thought she could be interesting. I kept wondering how she knew how to use the force and other things without training. I then thought maybe she has amnesia and was trained earlier but doesn't remember for whatever reason. Then Episode 8 came out and I was done with the Star Wars franchise. The first 6 movies are good enough for me!
The original intention was that Luke was helping her from afar. Remember when she's fighting Kylo and getting her ass kicked and she closes her eyes and then all of a sudden she defeats him? That was supposed to be Luke helping her. But Rian Johnson ruined all that and ruined the character of Luke.
Yo I thought the same thing, or she had her memory wiped like Revan. She knows how to repair and fly the Falcon so well because she's flown it before but she just forgot. What a missed opportunity.
Same. I really wanted to give Disney the benefit of doubt because surely, SURELY Disney wasn’t going to be that lazy and incompetent with the most evergreen brand in American pop culture history…
I acknowledge only seven Star Wars movies. The original trilogy, the prequels, which are cinematic gold now that the Disney sequels exist, and 'Rogue One'.
Yeah I agree. I didn’t really mind her in the first movie. I thought the idea behind a scavenger waiting for her family was actually interesting. There was a lot of potential to explore that. I don’t think they took those ideas in the right direction sadly.
When Natalie Portman said she was already in Star bores, Taika Waititi asked daisy ridley to join his untitled Taika Waititi Star Wars project. She said she’d be glad to, since she had never been in a Star Wars project. 😂
5:20 "stop holding my hand!" My sister had an interesting interpretation of this line. She took it as Finn having no social skills from being a stormtrooper. So ehen is getting back his humanity he is essentially a child. If this was the case then all I could think was "that sounds stupid." In the time writing this. If Finn had a similar story to Kurt Russell's character in soldier. I reckon that would be significantly better. Shows the threat of the first order and the return of his humanity over the trilogy.
As much as I like Finn (he and Kylo being the 2 best new characters in VII), he never really lacked humanity. It was never made abundantly clear that he WAS a cold-blooded murderous Stormtrooper. That would have made him even more interesting than he turned out, but Disney played it safer and had him never truly fitting in with the others.
I took my 10 year old son who was a huge Star Wars fan and even bigger Darth Vader fan to see TFA. Once Kylo took off his helmet my son was sorely disappointed, but after Rey was the GOAT with no training at all we left the theatre and never watched another Disney Star Wars movie. We both still love the originals and that’s where our story ends.
I didn't remember any of those quotes until Drinker said them. For contrast, I had heard the "No Luke, I AM your father" line hundreds of times before I had even seen the movie.
@@Hello-bi1pm Yeah, I got it mixed up with the famous misquote of "Luke, I am your father." My point still stands, though. I heard several versions of it before having seen the movie it came from.
Rey is like this....blank slate. A template. A humanoid base where a character hasn't been placed yet. Poor Daisy Ridley, man. This is gonna haunt her career.
They left out the most important, consequential line in all of star wars.. "Reeeeeeeyyyy". I just couldn't get enough of finn yelling it. It was just so moving.
Let's admit it, the whole advanced screening system is a modern form of payola. You really shouldn't trust any pre-release reviews because they're bought and paid for with access to the next screening.
Speaking as someone who in his teenage years saw Empire Strike Back me, my brothers and my friends all loved that film. Vader being awesomely Vaderish, the reveal of the Emperor, Boba Fett (who, we were sure was going to be utterly awesome in the follow up film), Yoda, Lando, the action sequences and the fact that the ending was so unexpected all contributed to a very memorable, enjoyable experience. And the reveal! Man, we were stunned. It was the twist no one saw coming. So I don't know where this myth about the movie being poorly received is coming from. Maybe he's just talking about the critics' reactions. It's true the movie didn't make as much as the first but that almost always happens with sequels.
I knew Rey was a wish fulfillment character when she was better at everything than all of the heroes in New Hope. Then she picked up force mastery in less than a minute, then put the beatdown on a Darth. The only two options for after that were apotheosis, or a heroes' death. She's all the Jedi.
I used to be a music reviewer for the Press Association. The general principle was that if you didn't like something you didn't review it and if it was big enough to need a review you got a junior to do it. The polite excuse was that you were "bringing them on in their career".
You should do a roundtable about how Finn was grossly mistreated. What better backstory than a defecting stormtrooper who also checks off a diversity box (for those who care). Instead they treated John Boyega (who is an excellent actor) like a clown. Huge opportunity missed which could have made everything so much better.
If they had been willing to slow way down and actually build the characters up instead of thinly copy them with extra diversity checkboxes, they had a LOT of potential. Rey could have been a sad orphan looking to develop a relationship with Han Solo, bonding over their knowledge of mechanics and the Millennium Falcon, which would have made his loss actually meaningful to her. Finn could have been something truly unique - a stormtrooper who defects - and exploring how this could even happen. The exception is Poe who has even less personality and background than Rey. Most people don't even mention him because he's nothing. But they could have actually made the effort to GIVE him something more than nothing. That could have been nice.
Retconning decades long and established lore about stormtroopers and how they’re all clones of one guy (who isn’t black) is not what I would give any focus to. It’s an insult to people that bothered to learn these little nuggets about the universe thinking they meant something and weren’t just ephemeral conveniences to be done away with at the first opportunity
There's a really good fan film series with stormtroopers, and one related short film, The Flower, would imho have made a really poignant origin story for a sergeant who just had enough. The one final straw that broke him. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DMy-XgYdqyc.html
@roarbertbearatheon8565 Uh, you do realize, by the OT, most Stormtroopers were conscripts, right? The only thing the movie retconned was Han and Chewie's character development.
This Chris guy is full of Cow Splatl!! I remember standing in line that wrapped around the corner In San Bernardino California for 2 1/2❤ hours to just buy tickets to see The Empire strikes back! Besides the latest Rock concert,This movie was all anybody at school was talking about. Yeh I'd say It was "Very well recieved".
I looked up character screentime in the Star Wars films. Not including the spin-offs Solo and Rouge One. Rey has the second highest screen time of any character in the 9 film saga with around 2 hours and 9 minutes of screentime. Luke in 4 films is just behind her with 2 hours and 8 minutes. Anakin/Vader beats her with 2 hours and 41 minutes of screentime. Keep in mind that's six movies to three. If you take just the prequels the majority of where Anakin's screen time comes from it's 2 hours and 4 minutes. Just below Rey by 5 minutes. Meaning Rey has the most screen time of any main protagonist of the three trilogies. I want you think about how much time 2 hours is. That's more than some movies. How much of Rey's journey do you remember? How much do you remember of characters with FAR less screen time? It's honestly amazing how in that much time I can't tell you shit about Rey aside from she wants to find her parents, then doesn't, then does, then doesn't, then does again, then chose not be defined by them for the third time.
It's kind of sad when all of Rey's lines in the Disney Trilogy can be bested by even the most mundane throwaway line in Andor. And even then said Andor lines were still good by comparison.
The best way I can describe Rey is that she is a Mr. FixIt, a sort of plain looking NPC that magically fixes things. Not much a Mary Sue and more of a Deus ex Machina with no personal goals or needs, it just happens there and the plot advances without any real coherent progress or effort from the normal characters.
Chris Shillmann's book sounds like it could be summed up as "I really liked this film, too bad the audience wasn't smart enough to get it, or appreciate it"
I’ve never seen anyone say Daisy Ridley was the problem with Disney Star Wars. Or John Boyega. Or Kelly Marie Tran. The fingers are always pointed at Kennedy, Abrams, and Johnson.
Personality requires risk taking, because the character has to have opinions that be rebuked, make mistakes that can be judged, unlikable and likable aspects to make them human and rounded. Ray was made to say little, a corporate vanilla placeholder that offended nothing.
The "something inside of me..." quote could have been a great line if it were actually shown to be relevant. If Rey weren't so damned confident and able all the time; if she had flaws and weaknesses, then it could have been a memorable reminder of her vulnerability
