Elden Ring Lore Discussion With SmoughTown | Yggdrasil Podcast 39 

Thanks for having me on dude. Awesome being back on the podcast!

"Gideon's got that lore posture" lmfao

I agree that snakes used to be allied to the Erd tree because you cannot be a traitor to the erd tree if you did not first start as an ally.

You and SmoughTown have great podcaster chemistry. So easy and natural sounding, really fun to listen to.

What a great discussion. You should get Smough back on the podcast a few weeks or months after the dlc comes out so that you guys can discuss the new answers and theories that the dlc introduces.

My 2 favorite Elden Ring channels doing a podcast together, nice 🤙

I love hearing Ratatoskr say “OHHHHH!!!” That’s when u know it’s a damn good piece of lore or lore idea GREAT video guys, can’t wait to hear the next podcast with both of you

I think Miyazaki is borrowing from Plutarch’s The Faces of the Moon. In that he talks about the Death of Demeter aka the death of the body that occurs on the earth. The second death is the death of Persephone that is the separation of the mind from the spirit - the mind being the intellect and the soul being the life force energy - that occurs on the moon. Godwyn relates to the sun, but the sun god is connected to the underworld because that is where the sun is after it sets. Since he died the death of Persephone first, his mind is not present but if body still has vitality but without the mind his body is growing rampant. It would let surprise me if the dlc captures this duel lunar and underworld theme.

As a "legacy" (aka life-long) Zelda fan, I've found it heartening to be embraced by the FromSoft community. The crossovers and collaborations between Souls and Zelda lore channels have been a blast. It would be awesome to see a collab with Bandit or any other Zelda channels, or even a PvP tournament featuring a mix of different creators.

I absolutely love how they're conceptualizing the lands of the DLC. The idea of a land that was once part of the Lands between being veiled, possibly with the veils draped from the Divine Towers, that this land has its own culture with all of the things that the Golden Order would rather be obscured from view, that the Erdtree was planted here instead of at the base of some sheer cliffface, it's all so good. I commented something very similar on a previous podcast, but the actual criticism of enemy variety is the Mountaintops of the Giants' open world areas specifically failing to introduce new enemies, especially in contrast to the early game which was throwing out new enemies left and right (its side content effectively uses enemies to not feel all that bad, however). Farum Azula has a great balance of new and reused enemies imo: the enemies they reuse fit perfectly in the area and they have enough new beastmen so that things are still interesting.

It's interesting, when you think about the end of the game, Radagon is killed and made onto the relic sword, the elden beast is killed which presumably rids the land of the greater will but Marika is still there. So you're essentially separating them and getting rid of Radagon in the process. This could by why Marika needed the tarnished to have a weapon that could kill a God. So she could free herself from Radagon and the Greater will. So she could have total control with you as her new consort/puppet. As you guys discussed

On Gideon getting it wrong, I was confused about it for a long time, but I think its actually quite simple. When you talk to Roderika about Hewg's mission, she says she can't help but view it as a curse, why? Because to her, making a weapon that can slay a god seems impossible. She interprets Marika giving Hewg that task as a form of punishment, like the boulder of Sisyphus. I think Gideon comes to a similar conclusion - he figures out that Marika wants the Tarnished to slay a god, and concludes that it must be Marika's wish that the Tarnished struggle for eternity. He thinks Marika is a mad woman who only wants suffering. Gideon, for all his cynicism, still sincerely believes "A man cannot kill a god". Marika's real motivation in all this, I think, is forcing change. The hints from Melina suggest she's been planning the Shattering for a long time, since Godfrey was exiled at least. I don't think it was purely an emotional outburst at Godwyn's death, that doesn't fit, but I don't think she killed Godwyn either. I think instead Godwyn's death (and the spread of Deathroot) was the moment that spurred her to break out the "in case of civilizational collapse" Tarnished contingency she'd held in her back pocket for a long time. Marika sees the decline of the Golden Order and wants new blood to rule, and believes the best candidate will be proven through war. She doesn't really care what ideology shapes that rule (she gives grace to the fucking Dung Eater). Basically, she is a proponent of "might makes right" or "a crown is warranted with strength". Marika is an agent of violent change, Radagon is an agent of Order and unity. The game is about how these concepts relate to and contradict each other, Radagon/Marika is a clusterfuck but thats the point. Civilization is a messy, bloody, beautiful thing - that would be the "core" theme of Elden Ring in my view, and I feel confident of that even if it turns out I'm wrong about some of the specifics.

smoughtown is such a cool guy, i love that he keeps up with you and other communities. he’s a class act

It was a great conversation. It's worth anyone's time. Thanks Rata and Smough!

Holy moly!! Smoughtown and Rata?? No one told me the Wisemen’s Committee was in town? Love it!! One of the things I felt about other from software games was there is this amazing deception leading to a boss fight. Every FS game has it. I really hope this DLC has it too. Some of the memorable ones are Gehrman, Laurence, Gael

This might seem like a cop out answer, but I think Marikas motivation might be intentionally unknowable in a lovecraftian sense. The same way the motivations of the old ones in bloodborne are unable to be fathomed by humans, marikas motivation might simply be totally incomprehensible. However, I do suspect that because marika was mentioned explicitly by miyazaki to be featured in this dlc, we will likely get more insight into her actions.

The DLC trailer got me really exited, so i started watching lore videos about it to hear others thoughts. And it was kinda frustrating nobody mentioned the following: What caught my eyes in the trailer was the portrait of an old man and a woman. I thought the woman looked familiar. It seemed to me she was somehow similar to enemy npc that attack you near the Shaded Castle. But this wasn't quite the case. I decided to look around some more nonetheless, and there it was. The Shaded Castle boss, Elemer of the Briar drops Marais Executioner's Sword and Briar Greatshield. Briar Greatshield has an image on it of a skinny pale dude wrapped in red cloth and surrounded by flame and skeletons. Who else can it be if not Messmer the Impaler. Item description: "Greatshield from a foreign land Originates from Eochaid, a land of proudly solitary ascetics." This is amazing such hint existed in-game all this time, even though you couldn't figure it out until you saw some pointers. Makes you appreciate just how much effort was put into the story.

The tree in SOTE is the Great Tree from before the Erdtree faith was established. It’s another tree entirely. Marika hid this tree from the lands between with a veil. She’s good at hiding things and she’s known to use veils. I mean, the tree is literally veiled, you can see it. It looks like she’s draining this tree of it power, maybe to bolster her own. There’s actual depictions of the great tree in game that’s totally separated from the Erdtree. It just makes sense that this dying hidden tree IS the Great Tree from long ago.

Wow, what a buffet of lore and theory! I love it. Now let me digest all this.

I really need Queelag as a guest on this podcast. I think you two would make a great pair discussing elden ring and its dlc's lore. Loved this episode!

1:13:58 just remember a funny thing. At the end of Ragnorock, the radiant and beloved Balder, killed by Loki, (which some speculate is was a Odin stand in for the story ) set the end times in motion, and later comes back to life in the new world. We know that Ranni using Godwyn as a totem, causing him to half die was not something even the assassin expected. You could also speculate Godwyn was expected to die properly if you read between the lines of the deep root depths finger reader. Miqula wishes death for his brother, but this is also a land were death is a metamorphic force, not an ending, so a following resurrection may be a unsead implying. In addition being a beloved hero of the dragon war can be reason enough for a ruler kill their spawn (sounds like a Game of thrones motive). But what we say is inconclusive as we need more lore to fill in this massive speculation holes.

I think messemer might also be cursed. He looks sickly and has an associated butterfly. Afterall, we know these lands are full of things cursed and heretical. Blood, flame, thorns, serpents, we even see the fire butterflies near the thorn mages who are most likely from the shadowlands.

This was like listening to 2 old friends chat about the good ole days. Great to listen to and love the ideas especially about Messmer being the very firstborn of Marika. I really think the land of Shadow is just like a dump site of all things that Marika wants to put away and hide so her age was viewed as this perfect slice of heaven and it ends up corrupting the land and all things in this realm she first set foot in

A lot of people were complaining that Elden Ring didn't have AMAZING graphics, but I honestly think they made up for it with their art direction, which is just genuinely flawless.

In terms of appearance, Messmer the Implaer looks a lot like Elric of Melniboné. They have similar dragon helmets, their clothes are similar, and if you look at the blade of Messmer's sword-spear the blade is black like Elric's sword Stormbringer. Elric is heavily associated with dragons (and may or may not be descended from dragons), and while Messmer has snakes coiled around him, he does have dragon wings on both his weapon and helmet. Also, both dragons and snakes are described as serpents, which are used interchangeably with each other in the Bible. And let's also look at the "Impaler" part of Messmer's name. Obviously, this is in reference to Vlad the Impaler, or what he is more famously known as Dracula. Dracula when translated into English means "Son of the Dragon". So, Messmer has a lot of associations with dragons, he even has eyes like a dragon. Fun Facts: George R.R. Martin used both Elric and his fellow Melnibonéans as the inspiration for House Targaryen. There even was a reference to Stormbringer in the show. In season 4, episode 2 Joffrey asks the crowd what he should name his new sword, and someone cries out "STORMBRINGER".

Great discussion, I love the peak “unknowing” occurring after two years of digestion, now the dlc trailer dropped everything can be reconsidered, even by a tiny degree. So much fun. Good chat guys thanks!

I still hold fast that Radagon is the OG. We know that he is a fire giant and he saw the red hair(their connection to the Fel god) as a curse. So either he was fused with Marika when they became a god or he was changed as part of accepting the role. Radagon might so loyal to the Greater will, just because it granted him liberation from the Fel God and why Marika was the central figure of the two.

Great timing! Looking forward to this discussion!

So glad I caught this, even if on replay. Thanks for letting us in on your chat!

1:06:19 I’m of the opinion that Radagon is dead. Not only do we kill him, but his corpse got turned into the sacred relic sword CANONICALLY by the elden beast, and CANONICALLY AFTERWORDS, Marika’s body can be restored, altered, etc. I assume Radagon didn’t get waxed into the sword, but then remerged into the Marika’s body after that. The whole sequence of the final fight feels like the big reveal of the guy with autonomy, the guy with the power, Radagon is the one who lifts the hammer.

I think the 'veils' in the sky are hung from the Divine Towers. The Divine Towers are placed so specifically in a circle, around the empty space in the centre of the map. The land of shadow is physically right there, hidden underneath the veiled cloak of the mimic veil or black knife cloaks. The tops of the divine towers could be the anchors of the base of the vast sheets, and the top is anchored at the tree. Just like veils in Marika's Chambers.

It would make sense if Melina and messmer were twins because then death and fire would be intertwined just like how abundance and decay are intertwined

Love both of your channels! These podcasts with you two are great!

What I would want elaborated on : What is the culture, how was it working and when, revolving around the Deathbirds, the society when Death was there. Is it gloam eyed queen time, or unrelated ? was it during the crucible ? Was it a natural order the world, or one ordained by the elden ring but before marika / golden order ? The Deathbirds time are so opaque to me i feel

i think the Theme of Elden Ring is the relationship of spirit, soul and body. how do they affect each other? what is more essential to a person, or is it the combination? how does death affect them? you can relate most factions and characters to this idea. - albinaurics don't have souls. - ranni and miquella don't have bodies, while - godwyn and those who live in death don't have a spirit. - godrick tries to enhance his body, but his soul does not change. - radahn loses most of his spirit and body through rot, but his soul seems to remain (as seen in a certain underlying dignity). - marika/radagon are the same entity, but it's not 100% clear what is shared between them. they appear to share a body, but have separate spirits. do they share a soul? miquella/st. trina may be in a similar situation. - the fire giant also houses another entity in his body. - D are 2 bodies with 1 soul. - dragon communion and the primeval current change your body if the soul or spirit is exposed to them (into magma wyrms or glintstone brains). - spirit ashes produce a body from the spirit, probably? - rykard feeds his body to the serpent, but consumes or merges with the snake's soul and/or spirit. it's not clear how much of the serpent remains, beside the body. the following points can probably be connected to the theme as well - graven schools are amalgamations of lots of sorcerers. what parts of them are connected? - beastmen are beasts that were granted more human-like bodies, which apparently also elevated their spirits to a step above beasts? - it feels like omens, misbegotten and demi-humans fit into this theme as well, though i don't know how exactly. - revenants, who are different from those who live in death. they have something going on with their bodies, but what about soul and spirit? i think each faction/character represents a different take on the theme. spirit, soul and body each influence each other. but what if one or more of the three are missing or altered? it's all so big that i can't wrap my head around it. is there a certain message the theme, in its expression, conveys? it is probably made to make the player think and derive their own message, depending on what they see in the game. however, there may still be some more concrete statements to discover. for a long time, i've thought that Elden Ring is about death and different forms of life, but now i think this can be viewed as a sub-theme. i'm also not sure if the theme i suggest is too broad to be meaningful and if there is a more specific theme hidden in ER. what are your thoughts on this? maybe someone with a better understanding of the lore will find a way to interpret this theme more consistently, or know more evidence for or against this.

Only a few minutes in so far, but really looking forward to this convo. 2 of my favorite creators right here!

Pertaining to the intertwined trees, I don’t see anyone pointing out how the Haligtree also consists of two parts seemingly intertwining. There’s also imagery here evoking the double helix, also symbolized in Marika’s/Radagon’s braid, the fingerslayer blade, and the tree monk statues, but it is broken at the end, as symbolized by the godslayer greatsword.

Rata and Smough together again ! this is truly the best of times !

Really enjoyed this episode! big fan of SmoughTown.

I love Ratatoskr’s sardonic sense of humor.

I loved this podcast. We need these two together more often!

This was an awesome convo.

Always nice to see collab between two of my favorite Souls-tubers together. Would love to see you do another one of these with Sophie from Sinclair Lore.

Great team up guys, brilliant work

That was one of the best and most interesting podcasts I recently saw 👏

Yes!!! The Yggdrasil podcast is back

Thanks for recognizing the guide makers in the beginning!

great conversation! +1 for tarnished archeologist. He is definitely on another level of analyzing game's environment

Two of my favorite content creators collaborating

Nice so glad I caught this!

It was fun listening you two!

Melina could be a projection to the tarnished of messmer and he used a pretty maiden type puppet or projection to converse with the tarnished to bring the end of the order, melina’s story could be messmer telling us of his life Messmer is not mentioned the entire time, or he was in the story the entire time She has the serpent tattoo, the same closed eye and messmer would have to be burned and bodyless to be in the land of shadow Another theory is melina and messmer could have marika and radagons ability to be the same person

I'm so happy about this podcast. 😊

Love every second of shadow of the erdtree content. 🙏🙏

Great episode! Messemer means 'knife maker' in old German! Do you think he made the black knives used to kill Goldwyn?

Finger Reader Enia offers a pretty dialogue line leading up the DLC: "The Rune of Death goes by two names; the other is Destined Death. The forbidden shadow, plucked from the Golden Order upon its creation..." she says this in relation to the Cardinal Sin

“How does it become all about Ranni?” Every character is the main character in their own story. I was taken with the argument that Miquella compelled Ranni to shed her own flesh as a test to see if he would survive if he did the same. Ranni benefitted the most in the quest where you aid her, but hers is just one of 6 endings.

I think there may be something to the common theme of all things being joined together. Symbolized explicitly in the Crucible, it is also expressed in the Erdtree and its Golden Order, the Helphen and its ghost flame, the Great Serpent, Those who Live in Death, Golden Order Fundamentalism, the Haligtree, grafting, the conspectus of Raya Lucaria, and Dragon Communion. There may be more, these were just the ones I could think of. Thanks for the great discussion, I love listening to your thoughts.

Amazing pod thanks yall

What an awesome chat. I loved all the speculation and ideas thrown out. I will say, I had always assumed Marika had to assassinate Godwyn because potentially he was the only Demi God capable of stopping her plan, and his fundamentalism would have just reinstated what Radagon wanted. But that was just my own assumption. Thanks for this Podcast, it definitely helps pass the time til June 21. 🔥

I still think of Radagon and Marika as very similar to the Nameless Namekian from Dragon Ball. He was once one being who got split into two due to an inner conflict. This created Piccolo and Kami, two people with opposing viewpoints, but that still shared one soul. If one died, so did the other. They later reconcile and remerge back into one person. I think something caused Merika to grow the second personality that was Radagon. They would grow so distinct that they would eventually split, but still share a soul. It just does not make any sense lore wise, that they always shared the same body. They needed to be at different locations at the same time. They then later agreed to refuse when they got married, or they just always had the ability to fuse and separate at will.

I had a thought after one of you had the suggestion that Messmer might have been born prior to Radagon & Marika’s “marriage”. Perhaps much closer to the crucible. If so, that would make him the only named demigod who was born out of wedlock & perhaps that has something to do with his status away from from the royal family & why he might embrace all of this forbidden imagery.

I watched this when it came out but returning now to give due credit. Rata you are awesome, the way you asked questions exposing how much is up in the air made me drop my theory crafting and go just read up on all the lore and try to absorb as much as I could about the lore. I also watched countless lore videos from dozens of creators, to bounce ideas off of and learn new stuff. Currently doing a lore run. Continue on if you genuinely "want schizophrenic", but also well researched theories addressing the Radagon questions. "Radagon is Marika" but Marika is NOT Radagon. Or, she wasn't before they conjoined during the shattering. Radagon was a mimic of Marikas creation, which she knew how to create being from the eternal city where mimics originate. The purpose of this mimic was to be a "leal hound of the Golden Order", a perfect vassal and future Elden Lord. In the Forlorn Cave, she mixed into her mimic some essence of the crucible, giving him savage strength and red hair. She mixed the essence of some of her erdtree faithful and erdtree hero's, making him a Golden Order fanatic who's sole purpose is to serve the Erdtree. And finally she puts a shard of the Elden Ring itself in him, giving him great power and making him a potential vessel of the Elden Ring. This means he was created after she had the Elden Ring, likely soon after. It was during the wars when "all opposed the erdtree", but before the liurnia and giant part of the wars. Main evidence is Kosmos video on how Radagon is a mimic of Marika ( ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-X_4n8j-5Cqk.htmlsi=jv4POvziCfx6wkME credit to Kosmos). The cut mimic tear quest and Melina dialogues are crucial. The rest about Radagons essence, I put together from visiting the Forlorn Cave on a lore run. The Forlorn Cave is a masterpiece in environmental storytelling, but the mimic tear quest was cut so it went over our heads. The game makes it pretty clear the process of creating Radagon took place there, just pay attention to object/enemy placement and item descriptions in there. The only things out of place is the dragon (just a corpse I think), and hints Miquella visited this cave before us. Still working on this theory, looking for more evidence still but I've been obsessing over ER lore since the DLC trailer, and it finally feels like I'm starting to put some big pieces together.

Iirc the name "Eochaid" comes from a play called 'The Immortal Hour' and it has a lot of parallels to some of the Elden RIng lore, which makes sense.

It's interesting that you guys bring up mohg. I don't know if this has been theorized yet. But Im wondering if Mohg was actually in the shadowed lands when we reach him in the base game. After all, he emerges out of a pool of the blood dripping from the egg this feels a lot like what it might look like for us to enter/exit the dlc. And once he's out he starts rambling about protecting his dynasty. We always took that to be some reference to miquela. But what if miquela was just the means to an end. Messmer uses a lot of similar rhetoric in the trailer: waiting for his Lord and all that.

Very interested in a possible continuation of your "Heroic Concept" series!

Talking about things being spatially displaced, thinking of the lecture halls from bloodborne for example. In fromsoft there are so many locations that have actually always been there and yet somehow we’ve never had the right perspective on them, or it requires a mixture of a physical and spiritual journey to access them, like archdragon peak, the hidden verticality of the nightmare in bloodborne, the fountainhead palace in sekiro, the ringed city and fields of ash - all follow a theme of being obscured, but technically always there just hidden from us

Re: Black flame on Iji. That's what happens when you attack a carian troll with the skill of the black knife (blade of death) that red projectile when it lands on a carian troll creates a black flame. Try it on a carian troll and see.

Is it sad that I'm just starting my 3rd full listen of this. I sort of wish there was a podcast every day about FromSoft and Elden Ring and lore speculation - I'd be hooked! Ratatoskr what about a "round table hold round table" - you, smough, vaati, quelaag and tarnished archaeologist. (Others would be interesting too, Loki, Zuli (though Im not sure they speak 🤣)

I love these so much

Just throwing this out there, its possible Melina is a split from Mesmer that he "burnt off". This wraps up a couple of lore bits in a nice little bow (and yet still leaves many questions). It explains why she is bodyless, preserves both the butterfly theory and the "rule of three" when it comes to important demigod children that both Marika-Godfrey and Rennala-Radagon had going on, and explains how Melina has Torrent, she met Miquella in the Shadow lands.

Awesome podcast! One thing that maybe makes sense is that around 23:14 you mention Messmer is the first born. Maybe he is, a child of Marika and Radagon from a time in which Marika was still with Godfrey? And Radagon was with Rennala? Before the war against the giants. It could very well be, among other reasons, why he’s in the shadow realm

I theorise that the Shadow tree is the tap root of the Erdtree and the game will be set in the spirit world, on the underside of the Lands Between, literally in the shadow of the Erdtree. I support the idea that the current, golden Erdtree is a newer, cultivated growth on a much older Erdtree/Greattree aka the crucible. And the current Erdtree was cultivated when the Rune of Death was removed. In fact, in the recent interviews Miyazaki said: "the shadow lands are where Marika became a god and where the Erdtree was born." This implies that the Erdtree was born when Marika became a god by what she did in the Land of Shadow. I suggest what she did there was remove the Rune of Death, which if you look at the oldest symbol of the Elden Ring, in Malikeths arena, you can see it features at the very bottom tip, pointing out below the other roots. In the current/pre-shattering Elden Ring a trellis appears in place of these roots and the bottom is blocked off by the rune arc, described as the "basin in which its blessings (aka eternal life) pool". Previously life did not pool here, it travelled down the roots, to meet Destined Death in the spirit world. This is why the Lands Between are now like a spirit world, your soul is caught in the basin of the Erdtree, this is where you first awake at the start of the game and then reborn into the Lands Between. The Rune of Death also very closely resembles the Helphen Steeple, who's light, opposite of grace, guides the dead instead of the living. Enia also says that the rune of death was "the forbidden shadow, plucked from the golden order upon its creation" So the shadow realm was physically disconnected from the lands between, when Marika removed the rune of death, replacing it with the rune arc. Godwyns Deathroot could therefore bring about those who live in death by partially reconnecting the Erdtree to the Land of Shadow, physically reaching down and entangling the Shadow Tree within the spirit world. This is why those who live in death are the weak and the many who lie in waiting, their souls were trapped in the shadow realm at the point the golden order was established. But they represent the antithesis of the Golden Order and so are shunned, despite their innocence. Further to this, just visually I think the shadow tree looks far more like a pair of entangled roots than a tree.

What if being 'burned and bodiless' is similar to soul form in Demon's Souls, where you were capped at half HP. So if you need to be bodiless to go to the shadow lands, you start with that soul form esque handicap (also applying to attack power in this case) and the sekiro system Miyazaki mentioned refers to gaining tokens that permanently mitigate that handicap, getting you closer to what in Demon's Souls would have been called body form.

I’m so excited for this

I really wonder if we’ll get much lore that gives us an insight into Messmer’s relationship with Radagon (assuming they are family). I can’t imagine Radagon would be too fond of him, but I wonder how much Radagon is aware of him in the first place, and the Shadowlands itself.

Should definitely check out Jack is a mimic, he's definitely got some out there theories. Also good video production

Cannot wait for you to have the Tarnished Archeologist on to talk about the dlc and timelines.

I bet smoughtown is pretty handsome you know like awooga boomchika-bow-wow you know what I mean chat?

I loregasmed a couple times, boys. Wonderful talk 🤙 Fucking stoked for the 21st

So, i just had the strangest idea about the upcoming DLC; What if Messmer is really Godwyn? Like a poisoned and corrupted aspect of his, that Miquella is trying to safe? As we will be able to meet Miquella there, despite his body being still inside the coucoon, it stands to reason that the shadowland is reachable throgh ones dreams. Now, Godwyn is courently in a similar situation, while still suffering from the deathblight, you can also see some physical similarities between him and Messmer. But thats all just specultion of course and there are some glaring lore-bits, that dont quite line up...

its so crazy its been 2 years

Loved this podcast. I love the idea of Melina and Messmer being twins. Melina burnt and bodyless and Messmer who is cursed to burn.

I love it when you two get together. Love you both separately too dont get me wrong lol. But when you both start swapping ideas, its a great time!

The whole thing about drawing lines between the towers that hide the shadow lands reads like those old Nomad Colossus videos and the “Intersecting Points” theory.

I am not a podcast person typically but this is great. (edit: add indefinite article)

I saw a theory from a smaller lore channel that suggested Mequella IS Torrent. It’s based on a mythology of a shapeshifter who takes the form of a the specific breed of horse Torrent is. It was wild and so good 😂

It was fun seeing Rata go full Gideon here and jam his face straight into the theory-crafting. I do kinda wonder if Rata is having a hard time knowing what the game is about more broadly because of his life experience though. To me the game is about legacy and unburdening oneself from the past. I keep asking people if they've ever noticed the similarities between Marika and a middle aged Japanese video game developer. Marika is basically Miyazaki. They built their kingdoms. They sent their "children" out into the world. They were tried and tested. And now they are at a point in their lives where they are stepping back and delegating responsibility to new people. Elden Ring, in my view, is a sort of coming to terms with the process of ageing and taking on different roles. Miyazaki is now the head of From and he has to grow the company in ways that he alone cannot accomplish. He's clearly arranging things such that others can take the lead and still produce games of the quality we've come to expect from From. Marika is doing the same sorts of things but on a grander, more melodramatic scale. Instead of video games, it's her children.

My absolute crackpot theory about Messmer is that he isn't Marika's child at all, but rather an adopted child of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I won't go over every detail but he has the physiology of a Godskin (long arms, pale skin, snake features) and seems instrumental in the very beginning of Marika's reign, when she presumably defeated the GEQ for the throne. There are a lot of Roman elements in the history of Elden Ring & adoption was a very common way for Romans to ensure succession. After Marika had Maliketh slaughter the GEQ's children, it's possible she left one alive (like the Fire Giant) and adopted him to legitimize her rule. EDIT: Made this comment before I finished y'alls discussion. Messmer as Marika's firstborn was my initial impression. It would kind of make sense with his Satan/Lucifer vibes but still wonder about his association with fire.

Something I haven’t seen many people talk about and I find very interesting is the bear roar incantation they showed us. It’s resemblance to dragon roar incantations makes me wonder if those old theories about Rune Bears actually being dragons have some truth to them.

23:18 don’t remember any teasers if Messir was born before or after the conquest. Also possible Messir born and later took long over after the conquest, birth order is inconclusive until more lore is released.

I hope the DLC explains what Marikas motivation even was for shattering the Elden Ring. Seems like an important piece of the puzzle that's basically never explained.

for the conversation at around 54:00, I think that the Shadow may be some sort of Spirit World/Divine Realm/Numen Realm and that the Lands Between is quite literally the land between the physical/mortal world and the spirit world. That makes the Lands Between a kind of holy land/mount olympus in a way.

Radagon being born within marika during the war with the fire giants could explain his appearance and feelings toward them.

Great Work! I am pretty sure they hired a new voice actress to play Miquella, I believe her name is "Naomi _______" can't remember last name. Thanks for the powerful lore discussion!!

You work perfectly for a podcast

it would be neat to finish Rogier's original quest. Uncovering the plot about the night of the black knives and the shattering. Poor guy lost his way when Fia gave him comfort when he needed it but we can take that mantle and bring light to this grand scheme !

The Marian Apparitions are really cool. As a Catholic, I find them an inspiring message of the unity of all people in Christ. It's also really interesting as a lens to see the symbolism of other cultures.

Here is an idea, perhaps the shadow land was shaded away when the ring was shattered and all memories of the place removed. Perhaps something happened with the night of the black knives during a large battle and to end it merica hid it away...

I wonder if the shadow erdtree is the Helphen tree that the Helphen Steeple makes mention of. Possibly having the crucible wrapping around it