0:00 Intro 8:55 Spoiler free start 10:29 Eternal cities 46:00 Story Trailer 1:00:57 NotBK 1:15:52 Those who live in death 1:21:57 Preview Spoilers start Quelaag's channel: / @quelaag
This is so good I need more of these 2 talking lore. Quelaag is amazing at bringing in sooo much info that gets my brain working in a thousand different directions but she often gets so lost in the weeds it can be hard to get her to land on solid ground so having rat her to help keep her reigned in is so nice haha. Yall need a dedicated podcast
Honestly I'm a quelaag fan but the format she noramlly uses isn't my speed so this is the perfect way to experience both of you. Conversation is so much more stimulating than lecture for me and the longer the better.
Turtle pope has that line about how radagon was kind of a nobody and that people were confused when Marika made him Elden lord. Could this allude to him spending the Godfrey era in the land of shadow working on marika’s behalf, only to be called back to end the carian war?
so radagon is like marika's rizzler ? she used him to seduce two separate societies into ruin thats kinda baller. what if in the end she was seduced by him which ruined her golden order as well?
@@EmissaryOfSmeagol he was fighting in the wars, it said he did come from the capitol into Liurnia with a bunch of soldiers, he’s just largely absent from the lore beforehand. And now we have reason to believe he may have been involved with pre-golden order events
So good. I love that there wasn’t anything truly unhinged like “Melina is Radagon’s half brother” or “Marika is Radahn’s horse” or whatever. That stuff is fun and all, but I’m kinda over it.
Omen being connected to the sun is so interesting but also feels like one of those “staring at us the whole time” things considering the dung eater is obsessed with omen and wears that sun medallion.
@@abereu8405 nope, i just listened and didnt pay attnetion to any of it. all i heard was like 100 plus weapons, the throwables are R2s not an AoW, and that the dlc may be half the size of the base game according to Iron Pineapple. thats it, literally all i know and i didnt look at a single frame of the vid
wait wait wait maybe ranni betrayed marika? if the plan was to proper kill godwyn to turn him into a martyr, and ranni betrayed the plan to die in body and now there's this unforseen result of godwyn turning into that abomination, ranni got what she wanted and marika had the final nail in the coffin to shatter the elden ring
Awesome to have Queelag! I think she put out some interesting points. Like Astel not being the punishment but crashing in after they are already underground. Some other points, Nox means Night in Latin, if the Nox came from the Numen, my guess is that they started being called "Nox" after being banished underground, when they started to live in "eternal night". The betrayal, something tells me we're going to hear more about it in the DLC. With currently knowledge, from the trailer voice-overs, I think the Numen may have helped Marika (which is a Numen too), create something (Figerslayer Blade, maybe?) to destroy the Order that was currently in charge when they arrived. Somehow, Marika ascended as a God, probably betraying her people in the process, and the Numen were banished underground, becoming the Nox. This would also make sense when we think the of the Night of the Black Knives, and how the "Scions of the Eternal Cities" would help Ranni slay the gods, Marika's kin. Probably out of revenge for what she's done to them to ascend to Godhood. This is just speculation, of course, my thoughts on how all these things connect.
If Marika and The Greater Will are fully in league, and Marika was a co-conspirator in the NotBK, then Iji wouldn't need his tin-foil hat to protect himself from the GW's remote-kill-via-radio-wave, and Ranni wouldn't need to kill her Empyrean flesh. Iji wears his tin foil specifically to prevent the GW from learning about Ranni's plot to kill her Fingers.
Marika just wanted to protect her children, including the lands between inhabitants, by being an overprotective mother. The GW was an over controlling absentee father that secretly just wanted to spread his golden seeds. So she got a divorce after he failed to protect her children, and broke the ring with a hammer, instead of just selling it to a pawn shop. (Elden ring in like 15 seconds)
@@EmissaryOfSmeagolya just cus this confirmed it to me when I heard it from miss chalice scrounging it up on bandais website "One grim night in the depths of winter, a flock of unknown assassins stole across the Lands Between. In a coetaneous attack, this foul covenant snuffed out the lives of many of the God-Queen’s kin throughout the empire, too numerous and too scattered for her godly protection to save. The assassins’ targets were multifold, but none was as devastating a loss to the Eternal Queen as that of Godwyn the Golden. After his death, the Elden Ring was somehow shattered, and the order of the world broke with it."
@@umwhoalol the only reason I can think of, as to why Marika would shatter herself and condemn her fractured body to eons of crucifixion, was if she no longer wanted to associate with the GW. For what reason... I don't think anyone can say. But, it certainly makes sense to me that it could have been over her grief at the loss of her "Golden" child. You and I are on the same wavelength homie 🤝
@@EmissaryOfSmeagol if your wife saw u didn't protect her favorite kid....or any of her children...do you think she would stay with you? Ya know? Lol if I was her I'd get a divorce too, I wouldn't wanna be associated with mogh either, the secret evil twin in the basement. 😂
ENB shout out! I feel like I'm the only person who remembers him being _the_ guy, since he literally worked with FromSoftware for their official guides. He and Vaati were essentially the only two people doing serious analysis on Souls stuff at the time, but ENB was focused on guides + lore while Vaati was focusing solely on lore. Then his life unfortunately turned to shit.. and we kinda lost him to life. And now we only remember Vaati.
Epic Name Bro! ENB was the father of Tarnished Archaeologist. Good call out by Queelag shows her roots in the community. Good podcast, well done Rat. Isn't it all about sex (life), marriage and breeding? The story keeps inverting these three themes over again. Sex is the inversion of death. Breeding is the inversion genocide. Marriage is the inversion separation. Death becomes necessary with the proliferation of sex. Genocide becomes necessary with the proliferation of breeding. Same with marriage and separation. However, the game suggest when you invert the inversion it doesn't regress to the original state! Life inverts to death. However, Death inverts to shadow! Isn't it also weird that Arcane (stat) indirectly affects both madness and sleep. The game lore suggest sleep counter acts madness. Even the stats have this inversion.
I have a suspicion/hope/cope that Godwyn is the really big reveal that From has kept completely secret. I can't imagine he's not an integral part of the DLC plot, either as one of Miquella's main objectives, or as an actual character. It seems plausible that the metaphysics of the LoS would allow his soul to exist there, banished and separated from his body. The Eclipse seemed to be integral to Miquella's scheme, which would tie in with the Radahn requirement due to it requiring celestial movement, and I wonder if the Eclipse alignment somehow permits a connection between TLB/LoS.
i very much agree that he has to appear somewhere. when you look at pre erdtree death rituals and practices, the supposed "true deaths" in the age of the rune of death still being one with the whole elden ring, the soul doesn't simply disappear, the soul still remains in some way so what happened to godwyns soul?? it couldn't have simply disappeared into nothingness or have been destroyed that's not how death in this world works
@@raymondcaswell5622 i think he would maybe appear first in a spiritual form, somewhat similar to what his original form was but corrupted as a bossfight, and his second phase will somehow show him changing form and activating his death powers
This was amazing. I would love to see a part 2. Also have Tarnished Archeologist come on the podcast, I think that would be another fascinating episode
Yes more of this, this was so interesting to hear about the conclusions that you both have drawn from things that I've never been able to make heads or tails of
The underground cities remind me of the annunaki and atlantis, a great cataclysm ending their civilization and the survivors teaching tribal humans their ways. This would explain how advanced architecture and city planning appear out of seemingly nowhere.
or someone just came up with the idea, seems alot more likely than some ancient race of people, otherwise there would be more of it, and it wouldnt have come out of no where.
Never thought of it like that.About the Mimic Tear and the fact its a copy of us but its its own person. Or own copy with a will of its own. Reminds me of the No bodies in Kingdom Hearts lore. Yes it takes the same inspirations as Elden Ring as well. Same with Final Fantasy and Persona. Naruto too! And yes it goes a lot deeper. Even down to the cosmic connections. Roxas and Sora are basically like Marika and Radagon in that aspect if he is a mimic tear. The cut quest reminds me so much of Sora and Roxas being from the same heart yet seperate souls, wills.
wait a minute that actually makes sense. same with the rest of the nobodies. Now that i think about it Kingdom hearts lore does fit into Elden ring in some ways besides that. Erd Tree seems like the Moon heart how all souls go into one! what would the heartless be tho in elden ring?
@@GaryJuuce That would prolly be "Those who live indeath" like Godwyn. A plauge. Heartless are basically dark energy and dark matter made manifest combined with eldritch horror/zombie concept of changing you into them. Godwyn and his entire undead horde would basically fit that description. Ranni would be the exact opposite like Xehanort possessing Terra in Birth By Sleep, infact her ending mirrors that of the ending of Kingdom hearts 1 with how Hollow bastion is inside a black hole while the end of the world is a neutron star or something of that nature like a gravastar. Heartless come from space. So i wonder what cosmic horrors her ending brings about. D is one body and 2 souls, like Sora in KH2 with Roxas or KH1 with Kairi inside him. The Erd Tree and Kingdom Hearts Moon that "All becomes one" is all inspired by "The Anima Mundi" or World Soul Final Fantasy 7s lifestream is also based on it as well too! And as for the Eclipse at Castle Sol, Moon and Alchemy, they all tie into it as well. KH also has a moon, and they share similarities too like the eclipse would supposedly help godwyn regain his soul or something. Kingdom Hearts idea of a soul goes into a moon shaped like a heart. if it is complete a great reset happens supposedly. I wonder if the Eclipse would have something similiar happen. KH also has realm of Death&Sleep and they meet just like in Elden Ring as well. Both have connections to alchemy in other ways too like soras crown and key, like how the erd tree has a lock that must be opened. How many Warriors of Light? 7. How many Shard Bearers of the Runes in Elden Ring? Seven. So does that mean in Elden Ring we are the darkness ending the age of Light? maybe could give ya a hint to KH4 too! 7 foretellers of false light fated to bring ruin to the world. Oh and Zelda uses this too, 7 sages. BotW and Tears of the Kingdom has a lot of Alchemy connections too. connections go deeper than that too im sure as if i did id be here all day. maybe i should do a video on all the similarities of KH, Zelda and Elden Ring?
@@BioAlpha5 Yeah a video of the similarities would be awesome! I had no idea there was all those similarities until you mentioned it! Might as well do a video on the Back hole neutron star stuff because that sounds intriguing as well. About Kingdom hearts i mean. Zelda would be cool too honestly. Lore hunting is a blast. Cant wait for Shadow of the Erdtree.
Quelaag is on the camp that Marika changed and Radagon embodies the aspect of who she once was. We don't talk with Marika or Radagon for a reason. That's why we need to understand their connections with everyone in order to draw the best picture we can and I seriously doubt that we will get a straight answer from the DLC.
I believe that the underground's oddities can be explained by the underground being a remnant of the Lands Between's prior form--which is why it shares a lot of traits with the Mountaintop of the Giants, for instance. To explain; I've always interpreted the Lands Between as a sort of pagan after life, co-opted by multiple groups throughout the eras into different real-world cultural variants of the after life--you have a Greco Roman era with greek influences, a Norse era or conquerors and keeps, all the way to the more catholic era with the Golden Order and its big cathedrals and gold leaves. Given the Golden Order's state of power is emphasized by the Erdtree itself, being untouched by that influence (through either a lack of root contact, or lack of light) could theoretically remove its influence on natural order (as enforced by the power of the Elden Ring), and, in the absence of that light, a spirit world flourishes below ground--as well as in the Mountaintop of the Giants above it, where the rays of its light also don't cast. 'Sunlight' seems less relevant, to me than the lack of contact with the Erdtree's rays of light. Without those, you're basically outside of its influence--so, for instance; burning bodies produces Ghost Flame (which can also seemingly be seen in Catacombs.)
Such a joy and surprise to hear you converse with each other, so strange to hear Queelag talk to another person live. Really nice talk. Thank you both!
Just wanted to leave this here to say that y’all bouncing off one another was lovely to listen to in the background at work. Definitely need her on future podcasts! Cut it short because I’ve been able to stop myself from listening to any of the preview videos on the dlc, but I enjoyed everything before as always! See everyone June 21st! 🫡🫡
A martyr isn't someone who dies to further a cause, it's someone who dies because of their beliefs. The honor of martyrdom is the idea of "i would sooner die than recant my beliefs". The tragic side of martyrdom happened a lot in the second world war, where lots of people were simply killed without even having a chance to recant.
@@ratatoskr6324 from our perspective he doesn't look like a martyr, but from the perspective of certain factions he might look like one. From our perspective, he died as a sacrifice to Ranni's plans, but if even one of the parties who were involved in the perpetration of the night if the black knives targeted him because of his loyalties or beliefs, then he would objectively be a martyr. As I understand it, we don't currently have enough information regarding the true motives of all involved to be able to draw such a conclusion. From a more subjective viewpoint it's a bit more interesting though. Even if we never learn of Godwyn's thoughts or beliefs, if there is a faction that decides to revere him, such as those who live in death, they may consider him to be a martyr. I'm not sure if they actually do, but they have every right to.
So with the outer gods, I really think cosmic HP Lovecraft lore is very intentionally in here. You have entities that do not think like a mortal or any terrestrial creature does. To the point where they want the stars to align they want this heavenly body or Majority of a world to be in order to reflect them, but their consciousness is so alien that they know they need something local to Actualize that concept. They’re too foreign to exist themselves so they send emissaries and influence capable beings. That’s what it feels like to me anyway.
The outet gods are not Lovecraftian being from outet space, outer just mean they are outside of the golden order doctrin, and another note, the GW is not an outer god.
@@vincenzobulla113 OK but barely, technically. Just because the formless mother is implied to be living in a higher dimension as a living field/force everywhere.(like any particle on the standard model in normal 3+1 dimensions and standard physics- which represent a real life universal force, as a mathematically applicable force to every point in space- a field.) But the actual technicality of that, moreso than even actual science like the laws of physics that the game implies exist- is instead much more referential to berserk than anything else about how the world actually works, which in itself in berserk is like a 40 sentences total anyways. That's just- humans psyche and archetypes are given power by natural spirit world, shintoism, to drive the narrative, and end up creating a hellworld. But how they styled it in storytelling was, like bloodborne, more hp Lovecraft inspired to absolutely give that an as option(alien/annunanki-higher-dimensional-squid-gods) for understanding the story.
I think Fia is from The Land of Shadow where Marika and the erdtree are reviled and thus she was expelled to The Lands Between when she received Marika’s grace
Probably the most concise theory of what’s going on with the Eternal Cities I’ve heard. A lot of the other lore hunters seem to have given up on trying to explain the giant thrones and shied away from Sellia.
What is more fearsome than a true believer? Someone who ultimately and always puts fear to the side when wholly appropriate, and always acts from a place of genuine love? How can anyone deny that type of power?
@@pastorofmuppets4552 No, but are they made with it? Best way to deflect malicious harm committed and directed toward me, an efficient way to deal with it would be to deflect that choice/action away from myself, and ideally, toward another that means me harm... And since we're talking video games, and I'm just guessing here, a good way to manufacture such a tool would be via "bewitchment".
Bewitch: to enchant or delight. The bewitching branch enchants and delights the individual it is used on... Essentially focusing and distilling the intent held by whoever it is used on. If that individual is intent on default violence and I believe in love... I think it best for all we get what we want... I only differ in that default violence is best exercised as far away from me as possible.
Would love to see yall talk again after beating the DLC. Perhaps a raw reaction to the dlc with Quelaag, Zio and Smough would be fun. I think talking to Tarnished Archaeologist would be fun after we’ve all had a few weeks to heavily analyze.
I'm glad Quelaag brought up color. I assume day and night exist as major poles and a bunch of colors blend inbetween the two as seen on the clock, but there's more colors than just on there like black. Rannis quest line seemingly has you take the yellow suns pole away so only cold blue remains
One interpretation is that the Nameless Eternal city was a Numen city that was once above ground where Leyndell is now. This city was banished underground after use or creation of the Finger Slayer blade. Those Numen who survived the banishment traveled down the two rivers Ainsel and Siofra in coffins. They then founded the two cities of Nokron and Nokstella where the rivers led them, becoming the Nox. In both the Astel Remembrance and Black Moon descriptions, they mention a singular eternal city. This was the nameless eternal city. I also speculate there was a faction split within the Numen culture, between the tree-worshipping numen who stayed above, and the moon-worshipping numen who were banished and became the nox. Marika is descended from the tree-worshipping numen, who exist today as the perfumers.
Really enjoyed this cast she puts some really cool spins and insight from her knowledge. It be great if there were some slides next time that point to what both are referring to just to jog my memory as to where to look at the lore and where their perspectives are coming from.
my opinion about Godwyn is that he was supposed to die a true death, reintegrate the erdtree through the roots and either reincarnate as a demi god of death or reestablish the rune of death into the system, which could be Marika’s plan to right her wrongs. But since it was split in two, he’s got the undeath part and ranni the fate part of destined death. (her mending rune is probably the moon itself)
Dropping my view here too about the 'golden strands' Marika pulls out in the story trailer are not strands or threads. She is pulling out a piece of fabric! Once you realize it's cloth it's super obvious and easy to see in the video. Visually think of it like an 'invisiblity cloak' where all we can really see is the edges of the folds where light is being reflected. In the big shot where she has her hands up the fabric deforms just like the big parachutes kids play with as a group in elementary school.
The Eurogamer cover of the game confirms the theory about the Lands Between and the Realm of Shadows. Spoilers warning:‼️ The Realm of Shadow IS the missing middle part of the Lands Between. “In the early stages of my journey through the Land of Shadow, I came across a tower called the Pillar of Suppression, at the top of which read: "The very center of the Lands Between. All manners of Death wash up here, only to be suppressed." It seems this place has been deliberately hidden from view by the Golden Order, to conceal anything that might trouble the prevailing belief system.” Also the thing with Marika’s Blessing is incorrect and wasn’t about Miquella but instead Messmer (honestly, thank god😅,the amount of rethinking I would have to do would have been absurd.) Vaati has addressed this.
Godwyn was called "the Golden". He was an important figure in the Golden Order, a religious organization. Yes, his murder automatically makes him a martyr.
thats literally not the definition of a martyr at all... if someone randomly decided to kill the current pope he wouldn't be a martyr, however many saints and jesus himself are considered martyrs was because their deaths served a greater purpose. jesus was sacrificed to save all humanity, his death had a purpose, if he was just a son of god who died because people didn't like god or some shit he wouldn't be a martyr
@@chriswilshoemaker5742your definition is correct, but you just jumped to a conclusion. Where is it stated that Godwyn's murder happened BECAUSE of his faith/position in the golden order? Because if it didn't, just being part of a religion doesn't turn him into a martyr.
If the context of martyr in this situation is to die for one's beliefs as an example for others, then maybe Godwin believed in death and was willing to sacrifice part of himself toward that end.
The Frenzied Flame ending strikes me as basically someone kickstarting a Big Crunch that'll cause the universe to return to the singularity it was before it lost whatever cohesion kept it together. Sort of like the hypothesized potential end to our own universe by the same name.
I am 100% down for a part 2 of this discussion. I feel like you guys were going in a good direction and didn't really get to touch on all the new things we've gotten to see from the previews yet.
The discussion about the underground areas makes me think a lot of modern day Rome where you have Roman Ruins and the Colessium in the middle of the modern city right next to the Vatican with St. Peter's and the Sistine Chapel
