Escaping the NXIVM Cult - Sarah Edmondson & Nippy Ames - Mormon Stories 1507 

“When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly” ~Sarah and Nippy. LOVE!!!

My guess is if the women of Joseph Smiths time could be interviewed they would tell much the same story of coercion, manipulation, justification, sexual impropriety, emotional and physical intimidation and grooming by Joseph and his inner circle, both men and women. But since it happened 180 years ago, none is left to interview and the few records and journals we do have have been in the possession of the church so can't be trusted to tell everything. We know the church has a history of hiding, destroying and editing its own history to whitewash it. The stuff we do have is damning enough, just think about the stuff the church won't let come to light.

A quote I try to live by is this, "keep an open mind to everything but attach yourself to nothing". Because we are learning everyday, and move in and out of theories or ideas that resonate with us, we have to leave room to move on or develop different or new philosophies. If we get "stuck" we will surely drown and limit the experience of our souls journey. Something I have learned, is we are what we are seeking, a journey to rejoin our higher self and be a part of the collective or the universe. Drops of water that desire to return to the ocean we all came from, once our story or play has ended. 💫❤💫❤💫❤

“High demand organizations do not encourage emotional intimacy in marriages because they want you married to the organization, not to each other.”

These two are marriage goals. Such a great team and power couple. You can sense the mutual admiration and respect. Never undermining each other, always building each other up and building on what the other is saying. So wonderful and refreshing to see. They have been through hell together and came out stronger than ever.

Loved her on the NXIVM documentary, can't wait! Best wishes for healing to her and her husband

I seriously teared up soooo much during this. You two are such brilliant, emotionally intelligent and beautiful people.

Sarah and Nippy are amazing! I loved this podcast. It always amazes me how there are such parallels between Mormonism and other cults/high demand religions but its hard to see until the rose glasses are gone. Sarah - write that book!

This is an inspiring and intense story. I almost didn't listen because of the weirdness of the NXIVM cult. The last few minutes summarize the lessons for ex-Mormons as well as non-Mormons "When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly".

I’m only about 50 minutes in but I just had an aha moment. I never considered we evolved to feel dissatisfied so we didn’t die. As humans, we HAVE to feel uncomfortable in order to survive so that feeling isn’t me not being good enough, unhappy, or whatever lies I tell myself. I’m SUPPOSED to feel that way. That’s beautiful.

This was soooooo helpful to this ex-Mormon! Thank you so much to all of those involved.

I have never seen this couple, but I am super loving this "hippy nerd marries corporate jock, then they take down evil empire and live happily ever after vibes." It's probably just cause she chose glasses. Anyway, good job toppling the evil empire!

Ive watched so many of these cult shows and have always wondered how people get hood winked into these cults. Its just dawned on me, im not religiously vulnerable, but i could have easily been hood winked into this type of cult because we all want to learn new skills, develop and grow.

These two are courageous. I admire them. Recovering from this kind of abuse leading to mental and spiritual injury is difficult. That goodness they have each other as well as support from others. They are doing an adorable service to others with their choice to go public as they heal. I thank them.

These two are so cool and FUNNY :) Thanks for bringing them on. I love how comfortable each of you are in the episode.

Amazing! I think we all have a "hero's journey", or "dark night of the soul", so to speak, and we learn hard lessons sometimes, but this was part of the journey in order to help others, either avoid the trap, or have support when escaping. Thank all of you and your missions to inform, help and support others! ❤💫❤💫❤💫

Love hearing from Sarah and Nippy! Their podcast is great but I also enjoy when they are the ones interviewed. It’s honestly inspiring watching their lives change for the better when they dealt with so much. They over came so much together and it’s amazing to see.

This was riveting. Thanks so much for drawing the jaw dropping parallels with Mormonism.

Wow! Thank you Sarah and Nippy for sharing your story and being brave to speak out! You have allowed the truth to come out and for so many to see all the manipulations and sex abuse! Thank you John for pointing out the similarities with mormonism and Joseph Smith!

I so LOVE when you all come together! Mormon Stories, A Little Bit Culty and Scientology: Fair Game are my Top 3 podcasts. Thank you all for teaching and sharing your personal experiences with us! Take care.

Well I'm glad I set myself strait. During this entire episode, I thought Sarah was going to speak at a THRIVE / Le-vel (multi-level marketing scheme) event. I was under the impression that Carah sold products for the company and was a top-tier leader. During the entire episode, I was banging my head against the wall thinking the hosts and guests were all drawing ties between NXIVM and Mormonism, yet not seeing the similarities between the two and multi-level marketing schemes. As you may be aware, these "businesses" operate in ways so similar to faith based groups and cults and they tragically plague the Mormon community. Now that I know "your" Thrive and "their" Thrive are totally different, I'd love to hear a podcast about the link between MLMs and the Mormon community. And I'm super glad to respect you all again. I was sad during the two hours that I lost it.

My mother was a single mom raising us in a rural area. She was brave enough to demand to be excommunicated when she finally, after temple work and living the doctrine to the "T", decided it wasn't right for her. I am not sure why she left. She didn't leave loudly. But she was brave enough to accept nothing less than an excommunication, despite other advise and options. Maybe people can leave loudly when they have a spouse or others to leave with. My mother left alone. She was a convert, years prior. Maybe that helped. But she did a brave thing alone.

I hate the term “underage women” when they’re children. 14 is not an adult in any way, shape or form. I see this term being used to soften the blow when reporting crimes of grooming and SA because….why?!?

I'm so glad I listened all the way to the end, the gratitude and the healing that was evident in that last 5 or 10 minutes of conversation was just so moving. When Sarah said every time she saw the scar it motivated her to fight, it took my breath away. They are so brave and wonderful for sharing this with us. And thank you Dr. John, as always, your heart and insights and questions were right on the money. So real and loving. WONDERFUL episode!!

John, you said something in this podcast that may change my life. You said if we seek happiness we will always be disappointed. I have been chasing ‘happiness’ for years. I would be happy if this or this or this happened. I have heard live in the moment said a million different ways but the way you said this absolutely clicked. I am not not have I ever been Mormon (or deeply involved in any religion, really) but I want to say that I love your show and your words have impacted my life. ❤

Wow... loved this episode. Also binged watched the vow and DANG. THIS IS INSANE. looking Forward to season 2!

I love this nippy Guy. The way he talks about defending his family and protecting his family what Great character just the way a man should be with his wife and children!

Always great! The range of people and depth of thinking/feeling/processing helps me think through my own view of life/live/relationships.

I just recently watched the 2020 Starz documentary series ‘Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult’, which is a documentary of India Oxenberg’s life while an active member in NXIVM.

The host seems to really get this organization and topic and asks the right questions

When I watched the programs: Going Clear and The Vow, I am able to see Mormonism with so much clarity. So many parallels to the LDS church. This episode has reinforced my conviction to be outspoken about the negative and harmful parts of the LDS faith. This episode has been valuable to the peace in my heart and my personal strength. Mormonism tries so hard to be a “nice” cult and it breaks my heart because the LDS faith is harmful to many. And that the Q15 have so much power and money and influence….makes those walls feel impenetrable.

Lauren Salsman: “This thing will take you to the next level.” Sarah, “Wait, what I’ve been doing for 12 years isn’t enough?” Bingo, Second Anointing!

Wow this is incredible! I love how protective Nippy is of his family! So inspiring!!

Having been born and raised in a similar same type of cult, which destroyed my entire life and family. The damage from cults never leaves and sadly you loose everything. It's very real and this is happening even now in todays day and age to people just down your street....

I've said it a thousand times. The difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult ALWAYS has strings attached. It mimics spirituality in order to gain resources of some sort. Genuine religions are actually quite good for people imo. Lots of folks crave true spirituality. An example of a debatable "religion" as I've defined it would be Buddhism. Buddha didn't want money or resources unless you offered them. He never asked. His whole goal was to teach people why they were miserable and how they could escape the traps laid out by the world, but with no strings attached. He wanted enlightenment and freedom. No strings attached whatsoever. That would be a true religion.

I went to college (and still live in) Albany NY. My good friend in college lived in the same neighborhood as Raniere and all she knew was that they were weird. It wasn’t until after he was arrested that we learned how horrible it was- cults aren’t just “crazy people”- that’s putting a non-serious label on dangerous manipulative leaders AND blames victims. It was a crazy time when they were busted especially in my college community

Appreciate all you guys do!!! Thanks 😊

Only the 3rd time I've watched this interview!!! Love this so much. Love the chaos of everyone relating to eachother and just can't get words out fast enough because you sooooo relate just so much!!

The role of shame in controlling people should never be underestimated. When I realized I was transgender, one of the biggest hurdles for me was "Wow, how did I ignore that?" Like there were thoughts and feelings completely erased from my perception because they connected to something I had been taught to feel shame about, without even identifying the feeling of shame because it had been associated with those thoughts for so long. In authoritarian groups, that shame plays a similar role in getting people to ignore their guts and censor their feelings -- if the group is controlling you and it makes you feel bad, that feeling is BAD and based on "Life Problems'" or some other problem IN you and your feelings. And conveniently enough, the group and its hyper-controlling rules are posed as the solution to the shame they're intentionally amplifying. It restricts people's ability to think about the harm a cult is doing to them, because it's always a problem IN them and feels shameful to even examine outside cult thought-rules.

This was very helpful for me. I began my escaped from evangelical church 25 yrs ago. The similarities of this chat, Mormonism, JW. and even political parties. etc, etc are vivid. I will order your book tomorrow. Wish we could meet.

Thank you, again. Watching from Alaska. Tracked this from the beginning. 👍

A great interview. Thank you all.

I loved that she paid back all her students before she and closed her center before she left. Then, she worked to shut down the whole company.

Loved the documentary about it; love hearing stories similar to all that you talk about

I was in the jehovah's witness from age 11 to my 40ish tryed taking my life at 14 only just stoped I'm 53 now lots of meds glad I'm in England it would cost a fortune but I'm getting help now its hurt me for life

John such a good, informative podcast. Thank you for sharing!

"I am enough" blows all cults out the water. ❤️❤️ Let go and let God. Fascinating discussion. 🙌🙏

WoOoOow!!! I feel alot better about leaving my cult now that I know their struggle. 😭 I feel STRONG! I feel a true release of guilt!!! 🥲😭😀🌞🌜✨ I feel full-circle healing. Thank you, sweet people!

Now this will be an interesting and dare I say EPIC episode 👍

I read & learn about a lot of crazy stuff. During the process of learning about NXIVM, I had nightmares on a regular basis. I had to take breaks from it.

good interview..so important!

One of my favorite episodes of Mormon Stories, thanks for this content!

I am so thankful for Mormon Stories! ❤️

Wonderful guests, wonderful host, great show!!!

This was fantastic. Thank you

Love your interview style. ❤️

Wow! Fantastic episode

Such an interesting podcast! Nearly 3 hours flew by so quickly. I’ll be watching The Vow next because I am so intrigued by this. Thank you Sarah & Nippy for sharing your story. And John, you are a great host!

Such courage in sharing!

This was so interesting. Great interview.

Excellent. Helpful. Thank you.

Men who call themselves “ Alpha males “ give me the ick lol

Listening to Nippy Ames, about how he never fully bought in because those preaching were less successful than him reminds me so much of John C. Bennett, who was way more successful than those who were trying to control him within the church...

When I was 11 my mom was going to join a cult and take me n my little brother… (leaving my dad n older brother behind) I called my grandma and all her family came down from hrs away and got her to change her mind.. she was in deep depression and as an 11 year old o tho it sounded to good to be true and ratted her out lol

Awesome episode ❤️✌🏼

As a non-religious person, all these things are fascinating. I do chores around the house listening to these things. I lefr the catholic church at age 9 and felt all tose people I knew were insane. It took me a long time to understand the need for religion and I now respect those who do it. But these extrem cases ... damn.

Very interesting. Thank you. Controlling behavior by narcissistic abuser/controllers can be so difficult to escape from--especially when no one has taught you/me how to identify/avoid the predictable dangers.

The truly weird thing is that Nicky Clyne and other women are still out there making apologist arguments for Raniere. It's surreal to me. But thank you Sarah and Nippy for your time and truth.

Thank you for affirming my personal departure from a high demand pastor.

Thanks for being voices of warning. This happens to BILLIONS of people around the world every day and a BIG THANKS to John and the team at Mormon Stories for another great episode. Feelings of loss of community are actually loss of what we thought we had and not the reality of what we were actually experiencing. BTW....is there a chance the you guys could change the name of the podcast to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stories"? Just asking the question. 🤣

I'm so happy that Sara and Nippy stayed together 🥰

Thank you. !!!!!

Such a good podcast! Thank you all! Sarah, Nippy, Carah, and John. Such a beneficial addition to our collective knowledge.

Oaks not being embarrassed by telling a lie that can immediately be refuted with evidence by multiple people. “Shifter?” Tell people who have always believed they’d be with their loved ones after this life-most humans who believe there’s an afterlife believe that-that, no, God will separate them UNLESS they submit to a ritual the leader has invented, and which subsequent leaders will monetize by requiring a hefty fee.

We can raise our kids to be critical thinkers and emotionally healthy people as much as we possibly can but because there is always a cult/MLM seeking recruits, they will be exposed and all we can do is hope they remember the red flags and recognize their own vulnerabilities. This topic has kept me up at night as well. Edited: missing word

Great interview! 🙂👍

I think it’s incredible what they’ve accomplished in helping to take down this disgusting abusive organization. However, I also picked up on a lot of misogynistic language and attitudes coming from Nippy- and classist crap. I sincerely hope he can deconstruct those very destructive ideas.

Why does that guy pull up his nose so close to his mic?🤧🤧🤧🤢🤮

I had never heard of this cult. Thanks for this sharing.

Being able to feel shame and embarrasment is a symptom of empathy, I think. You see how something you did looks from an outside perspective and how it affects other people, and it makes you feel bad. Its never ok to shame others, especially not kids, but it is healthy and important to experience those feelings every now and then. And it is horrifying that we in society admire people who act without showing remorse or shame or embarrasment. Edit: I see shame being discussed in different ways throughout. Just want to make it clear that my comment was aimed at the description of how they saw Keith in the very start of the video.

I was deep in Landmark for over eight years and I relate to a lot of this…

I watched just the first episode of the vow last night. I didn’t really understand the whole idea behind NXIVM..I wonder where I can find a good thorough explanation of it but the footage they put in the show from it was fascinating like it looked really good for all those people. They all looked really happy in it and I just wonder like how allllll those people are now and it collapsed…that is so traumatizing. They experienced all that growth, community, they were sooo invested in it and in themselves and all those leaders validated them all the time.

Lack of embarrassment… Isn’t that something a narcissist or a psychopath would easily skip?

Be Here NOW

I think being religious is not all bad for all people. but I think as you call High Demand DOES produce guilt even for people who were not raised in that level of strictness. I was raised as a liberal Jew and I realized at a very early age that I had a spiritual connection, belief in "God" that was not being addressed by Reform Judaism. As I became more observant (but never fully) I started feeling guilty that I wasn't doing enough of the things that were demanded in the Old Testament that we follow.I've always been the middle of the road kind of person and like balance in beliefs. I have a friend who became orthodox and so I began to feel guilty. It's been about 30 years now and I'm finally okay with who I am in my mid-50s. I like the idea of the protection of a high power and I believe it. But I think that sense of divine in the universe is so much broader than any religion. Even Judaism that believes that God does not have a form, Orthodoxy believes it's so strongly that we can't write the word G oh d. I know my spiritual connection is strong without orthoxy, I experience it all the time everyday. I believe God is loving. We are called The chosen people because we were the group of people that said yes to Moses when he shared what God had told him. We don't believe in proselytizing because as a people we were persecuted throughout history. I have always questioned and and Judaism encourages it. I have always believed the Bible was written by people who were inspired and historically accurate in many ways. I also believe that it can be interpreted in a modern way. I have always loved comparing religions! My dad followed the guru in wild world before that guru went to Oregon. I was never involved in it myself but it was hard for me when he was. I was 10 and my parents were divorced. He always used beliefs and ideas to manipulate. He's toxic and now I'm a licensed therapist/advocate. I was a wreck in my teens and twenties from major emotional abuse but I made lemonade in a lot of ways but there are always scars. Sometimes I'm surprised at how healthy I am taking into account, my childhood traumas.

Underaged women are not women. They are underaged girls, or ….children. The word you are looking for is children.

The similarities between Keith and JS is frightening.

Fantastic!!!!

So glad these two are out and helped take down Raniere. Of course I don't know him personally, but Nippy still seems sad and angry. Hope he's worked through those things by now.

After watching this documentary and seeing how Keith Raniere used women to groom and condition other women, it made me think about how Elizabeth Durfee and other "Mothers in Israel" recruited women to join Joseph in spiritual wifery. I don't find it a coincidence that the Relief Society was organized when polygamy was the most public and prominent.

I love this show thank you

"We weren't encouraged to get married. We were discouraged from getting married." "Yeah well that's because Keith wanted. . .what he wanted." 0.0

Sounds so similar with Landmark Forum!

Levels and ranks in reputable studies indicate small attainable goals. This makes many things possible.

contrary to my initial comment I actually watched this entire podcast and it was really good

Allison Mack was in Nexium. She plead guilty and is serving 3 years in jail. She was also a recruiter.

One of John's most all time sensicle comments begins at around the 51:00 minute mark. Well stated.

I watched both NEXVIM docs. I saw the one Sarah and Nippy were in several times.

The hole can be filled, but it takes deprogramming from what society teaches us. More money, more respect, more friends, more material things, will only ever work for a fleeting moment. We see this and convince ourselves it just need to be bigger and we will succeed. The problem is, if you see that as your identity, you may lose all of it in an instant and who would you be then? The only way to fill that hole is to turn inward and find the solid, ever-present, quiet part of ourselves. Once we start identifying with that everything else starts to fall in place. We start living in the moment, the seeking falls away, internal peace enfolds our being. A higher version of ourselves is not being more successful in this world, but knowing this core of strength within every human being is what we really are and that is enough. Love resides there. Our inner voice arises from there. To raise children without that hole is not realistic. Maybe our only purpose in this world is to turn inward and realize we need no guru. Everything we need is already within.

Wow, this is helping me to deconstruct a Health Coach whom has some similar sales techniques, but she's not a socio-path.