I’m just finishing Krakauer’s book and even though I already know a lot of the dark aspects of mormonism it’s still so painful and sad to read! But also so well researched and written. I wonder if we’ll ever get a series (or movie, but preferably a series) of the true history of JS and the church. It’s such a fascinating story, I can’t believe it hasn’t been done yet!
Have you read the book Saints, or the Gospel Topics essays on the Church's website? Give the Church a chance to speak for itself. In a fair trial, the defense gets a chance to speak.
@@dobbysboggart6883 the church has had 200 years to not only speak, but erase and bury racist and misogynist teachings whenever people decide to question things for themselves. I spent the first 18 years of my life devoutly following the commandments and only studying church approved sources. The second I started doing follow up research on things I knew in my heart to be wrong and harmful, my eyes were opened to how much I’ve been lied to by the church and it’s followers. The church tries to speak louder than the people who disagree with it but that doesn’t mean it’s correct.
@@dobbysboggart6883 I also want to mention that the first red flags for me came not when I looked to outside sources, but when I heard damaging and false teachings coming from the pulpit of general conference and local church meetings and had a distinctly negative feeling about everything. I prayed to know if those things were true but I didn’t find true peace until after I left and was able to be a kinder, more understanding person, unrestrained by the beliefs and attitudes forced on me since childhood. The church didn’t give me a chance to hear the other side while I was growing up, so no thank you, I don’t believe they haven’t been given a proper chance to defend themselves.
@@dobbysboggart6883 Yes, I've read those and all the church's sources, and believed them wholeheartedly for most of my life! I understand where you are coming from. It's a really difficult thing to hear or begin learning they aren't honest. I wish you the best!
P.S. Have you seen the trailer for Chewed Gum (about the church silencing assault victims)? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YpzAs7iT66g.html
Zelph On the Shelf and Andrew Garfield...the crossover I never knew I needed! 🥰 Also, can Tanner please be an interior designer?? Because that room is everything!
Have you read the book? I love the chapter near the end when the Laffertys’ lawyers try to claim insanity and the court can’t distinguish between “legitimate”’religious beliefs and beliefs they signify mental illness. Both church leaders AND schizophrenics claim to talk to god, have visions, etc.
I recently had an interaction with someone about temples. I told the person that I think it's best if the temples are completely transparent so that people can make informed decisions about how to respond before going, among other things. The person basically just said "I'm sorry you feel that way."
I remember when my sister was about to get married, I'd left the church already but suddenly started being recommended videos about the temple experience, so I watched and was horrified. I told my cousin about it and he said "no way that's true." He asked his married friend ab it and the guy said "yes that does happen, it's freaky but you get used to it after a while." It was a bit disturbing to me that that's how ppl deal with it.
My abusive ex has Mormon and military and police and Balfour Beatty connections and is 7 years older than me and my churches covered up underaged marriage and abuse and military service and hacked my Facebook profile and posted abuse photos with the lead photo "Pain Is Good! Yaaaayy! What Would Jesus Do?!" and used family court to trash my reputation and give abusers credit for my accomplishments and research and inheritance and set up a conservatorship where they took my medical and legal rights away and renegotiated the family trust and kept everything in other people's names and my DNA matches show Smith is the most related name and my family was from Missouri. The church also pays off doctors to call abuse victims delusional bipolar schizophrenic with First Step Pediatrics pediatricians and child psychologists and psychiatrists and covers up abuse and trafficking.
When i was in primary there was a little rhyme about what to do during prayer, “we fold our arms and bow our head and listen while the prayer is said” so it is kinda a most people thing i think
Thanks for doing this review! I am looking forward to watching it. I read an opinion article on the Deseret news from someone who was deeply insulted by the fact that the show seemed to give the message that Mormonism breeds dangerous people. Your explanation in this video articulated really well why it is that it really is an attractive system for people who believe that they should follow all their feelings without thinking things through.
Except I would say that's a mischaracterization of 'Mormonism.' Nothing the Laffartys did could be justified in any way by LDS beliefs. The insult felt by some is that this religion attracts or breeds violent people. I find that highly suspect. The viewpoint of the original author of the book is that people who follow religion are irrational. That could be seen as insulting to many millions worldwide. But, how many violent, murderous Mormons does everyone know?
Excited to see it. I was on my mission right after it was released. I tracted into a guy who was super insistent that I take his copy of the book. He was so insistent and when I finally bought the book and brought it home my heart was pounding.
As a 47 year old exmormon, I am getting tired of telling millenial Mormons that in the eighties, clasping hands with interlocked fingers, during prayer, was pretty commonplace. I in fact remember having primary lessons in the early eighties about appropriate ways, and not-so-appropriate ways, to hold/fold one's arms/hands for prayer. Black did not get this detail wrong.
That's crazy. Do you know why it changed? I'm 22, and we were always taught that you could do either, but there was sort of an implication that clasping hands was inferior somehow.
@@YogiTheBearMan not sure I understand your point. What does a 90s sacrament meeting have to do with a show set in 1984? Not only is the timeframe wrong, but the setting is also wrong. In the show, the Pyre and Lafferty families are depicted praying, kneeling around a bed and sitting at their dinner tables. A sacrament meeting from the 90s would inform us how exactly?
About magical thinking and convoluted tests of faith, that brings me back to a rather brilliant bit by the late great Bill Hicks about "dinosaur bones" A mandatory watch. Easy to find on the interwebs
This show has Deseret News pretty upset. Been seeing articles disparaging it, and saying it's dangerous toward "Latter Day Saints" because it paints all Mormons as dangerous, but Mormons aren't at all dangerous and never have been... yeah, that article was a pretty wild, and bad read by somebody that obviously never read the book (and since he somehow managed to tie in Richard Dawkins and "other atheistic types" he has obviously never listened to anything Dawkins has said or wrote either) .
@tapir rider ... The Mountain Meadows Massacre was an isolated incident that Brigham Young tried to prevent. From what I understand, Ted Bundy had started committing murders before he joined the Church, and his motive wasn't religious. Misleading Vividness is one of the logical fallacies that prejudice is built upon.
For the complete opposite of Under the Banner of Heaven I’d love to see y’all read and review David Duchovny’s latest book, the protagonist is flds. It’s such a bizarre batshit book but hilarious.
I felt the same! I was like, why are we making ourselves small? The body language looked very cold and stiff. My step grandma converted me (she got an 8 yr old step grandkids, lucky her) and when I asked about it, she had no answer accept: it hekps you be more reverent
As a Latter-day Saint, I think that, as long as your posture is reverent, it doesn't matter if your arms are folded, or if your hands are clasped, or if you are holding the hand of your spouse.
I defiantly want to see more movies and TV shows that actually shows the world the ceremonies in the Temple, especially the Sealing marriage ceremony and the creepy baptism for the dead one. I want ALL of the their secrets exposed so the world will see how messed up and crazy their beliefs are and hopefully it will cause more people to leave the church and less new people joining the church. How is exposing the truth "disrespectful" LDS members knows that is everyone knows how weird their ceremonies are, that less people will be willing to join their church.
I noticed the hand folding too! Definitely not Mormon. According to Lindsay Hansen Park, that was an intentional choice by DLB to make the prayers look more relatable to nonMormon Christians. If you notice, the person praying folds their arms and everyone listening clasps their hands. Apparently that was the compromise between authenticity and relatability to outsiders.
Interesting. Someone in the comments said it used to be normal in Mormonism in the 80s. I feel like maintaining reliability is an odd goal for this show to have, like they didn't exactly portray Mormonism as normal, so why is folding arms where they drew the line??? Lol
I am neurodivergent, so I want to live in a world where I can just be true to who I am, but I know that I have to mask and conform to what others expect because, otherwise, I will likely be rejected. This is one of those things that I recognize is incredibly unfair about the world. I have to change who I am socially to make others more comfortable, but no one ever does research or learns things to make me more comfortable. Okay, I am done. I am stepping off of my soap box. That said, it's still true. #ThanksForComingToMyTEDTalk P.S. I am watching the show, and enjoying it so far.
I think TBMs today believe in a caricature of what the endowment once was. It's been so contorted and watered down from what it initially was that modern TBM's beliefs about it fall more in the realm of victims of deceit and uninformed consent at this point rather than anything abusive per say. I mean, the kinds of feelings and envisionings that the endowment and sealing gives members nowadays is very blissful and joyful, nothing dreadful. At least, apart from the idea that their complacent/unrepentant family members won't be with them. So I'm always promoting the idea of respecting peoples' freedom to believe what they believe (respecting freedom of thought) even if I don't agree or respect the beliefs themselves. Of course that doesn't mean I won't contend against those beliefs if they ever find their way into a conversation with me. But when it comes to temple activity, believers are asking outsiders to respect their _privacy_ of beliefs or privacy of thought (or ideological privacy, whatever you want to call it). Now there are probably moral-based exceptions to respecting privacy of thought, like if terrorists are plotting an attack on a group of people, that's probably pretty important that someone intercept that information before it gets carried out. But in the case of LDS temple activity, this is not a thing. It does not threaten anyone's safety or, at least anymore, anyone's personal bodily boundaries. edit: And there are plenty of incentives/deterrents in place by the government for the church not to risk all that it has and owns for the sake of threatening any group of people despite its request for ideological privacy in society. And sure, I wouldn't be surprised that, if all members knew about its origins and the inappropriate procedures that were apart of it in the past, there would be some cognitive dissonance with most people in supporting and/or participating in these activities. I mean, I think you could probably argue that the church tries to stay abreast with what it can get away with in the privacy of it's own buildings without incurring a lawsuit or investigation upon itself. And thankfully enough for the members, the more disreputable aspects of its private temple activity has pretty much been removed.
I've read people, both Mormon and vocal ex-Mormons, speak out against not just this Hulu series but the book as well. The book has long been criticized in fact. Including by many voices that usually speak out against the church or call for it to be better. Apparently the researching done by Krakauer in the book was a bit shoddy. Not LDS but I can understand the frustration with practically every show or movie about Mormons being only about FLDS and polygamy or some type of extremism. Thoughts? Enjoyed this video, though.
I enjoyed the new show but my only nit pick is the husband character Allen, he seems more concerned about telling Jeb church history rather than finding out who killed his family.
WHAT? Why would ex Mormons not like that they are showing what happens the inside of the Temple in the show? I with that the marriage sealing ceremony in the Temple would be in mainstream movies. I want the whole world to see the long thin white dresses that the bride and groom has to wear and the weird green half apron... I want those scenes to be in as many things as possible..
I think they want to hold the church to the same standard as other churches. Like if they think it would be disrespectful to show another religion's ceremonies, then it would be disrespectful to do to Mormons. I think there's a pressure to be super fair, so you don't look like a "bitter, anti-mormon exmo," but personally, I don't think it would be disrespectful to anyone, but I especially think it should be exposed if the ceremony is abusive, like the temple ceremonies are. Though, I am upset that my nevermo friends will know what temple outfits look like now because I've always found their reactions very entertaining when I tell them 😂
My friend recently converted to Mormonism, and while that's fine and everything she's super liberal and I'm concerned that she won't last a moment in the church. She's only recently convered
@@urboisammy2323 Please help her out of it before she gets brainwashed. Perhaps you should invite her over to watch the "Under the Banner of Heaven" series together?
@@KidsandKittens217 Possibly. I want her to know that I'm not trying to talk her out of believing in god, but just out of something that is super harmful and extremely demanding
@@urboisammy2323 Sounds like you have a good attitude. It might help her if she were to realize early on that Mormonism requires that every member be PERFECT. This religion will constantly tell her she is not good enough, because, in reality, no human being is capable of being perfect. Still the LDS church repeats this over & over, that you must be perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Perfectionism is something people have to turn to therapists for help with. Believing you need to be perfect is not a healthy way to live. Some Mormons develop OCD, others just become very depressed because they cannot reach the expectations of what they believe God demands. Utah has a very high rate of women, especially, on antidepressants. Also, very slowly over time, you'll see her personality change as she adopts the attitudes drilled into her in church and in all the church publications. She will likely become unwilling to look at any information available from sources other than the church, about the church, or any of its leaders, the Book of Mormon, or the history of the church. Maybe it will help if you read the Book of Mormon with her? There are several websites on the internet that host a copy of the original 1830 version of the Book of Mormon. This is the version Joseph Smith approved of for printing. In it you will see the claim that Native Americans will become WHITE if they are baptized and obey Mormon teachings (this claim was later changed around 1970 due to the racism of it). Be sure to read with her an early version of the Book of Mormon. You can find a good website that takes a skeptical look at the Book of Mormon at www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/index.htm This site should give you some ideas of good questions to ask her as you read together. If you read the Book of Mormon with her and ask her questions about it maybe this will help her to think things through more fully before she gets in so deep that she loses her ability to reason. I hope this helps.
the way you describe the temple ceremonies is off bruh im sorry 1.) clothes stay on and no genitals are touched. 2.) there is no punishment for not going through the temple.. the temple is pretty transparent these days and the things that are kept “sacred” or “secret” or how ever you wanna call it, aren’t mind blowing or taboo. I genuinely can’t think of anything that would make someone feel violated after being in the temple
He clearly said that the ceremonies originated from coercive behaviour when Joseph Smith stripped people and touched genitals not that it's still happening today. But that is where the ceremonies come from.
I love nature documentaries, but I couldn’t stomach watching one narrated by a war criminal who drone bombed innocent children. If he had narrated it from a prison cell in The Hague, I might have been ok giving it a chance.
As an exmormon, I wouldn't say that it's unacceptable to show Mormon Temple videos. However I think to be consistent, you have to refuse to show respect to anyone's sacred tradition. Like you can't say it's alright to show Mormon Temple videos but not okay to make fun of traditional native American religious rites. All religions are fake in my view. In any case I would never say to someone's face that their religion is silly or fake. But making a show or documentary that mocks or portrays unfavorably someone's religion is something I don't know how to handle. That's not anything I create, so I haven't put much thought into it. Oh, another thing of course is that modern Mormons do not know or think that the endowment is about gross sexual coercion. It means something different to them. And that deserves some consideration
valid points. i think the difference is that most native american rituals im familiar with aren’t secret (and thus not as prone to coercion) by nature. to make fun of them would of course be wrong, but an accurate display is just an accurate display. mormons don’t like having their rituals accurately displayed (and equate such with mockery) because it forces them to reckon with the weird, violent, and coercive aspects of their ceremonies. Whether they like it or not, their rituals DO have roots in theocratic violence that continue to impact mormon communities today. Under the Banner of Heaven does a masterful job of showing it.
@@ZelphOntheShelf true, the secrecy is a problem. I just really doubt that there is any religion that doesn't have major elements of control and coercion. Red flags go off in my head when I hear anyone romanticizing traditional/aboriginal religions or cultures as if it was Europeans that invented violence, coercion and social control.
@@annunciataparchesi1832 I said that because Mormons consider showing the temple ceremony to be a mockery. It may not seem so to outsiders, but to mormons it seems so
Am baffled at how so many are willing to believe propaganda that is grossly reductive toward a whole community. We are now in the twenty-first century yet find ourselves among a population that would sew Stars of David to the clothing of an entire group and then immediately look the other way.
@@aubreetanner9543 yes they did / especially grim considering that the show creator is gay / gay people were actively actually persecuted during the holocaust/ had to wear pink triangles
@@rosepetal34 I feel like we've gotten to a point in society where everyone's heard a bad holocaust comparison, yet somehow people still aren't stopping and asking themselves "Is what I'm upset about at all comparable to the holocaust?" before saying it.
My parents participate in temple rituals all the time. They are peaceful, beautiful, and dignified. No violence, no abuse. How about going to some information sources by the Church and by faithful members? If you only go by the slander of detractors, then of course you'll get a negative picture.
We were both endowed members. And the temple ceremonies have changed a lot since Joseph Smith’s time. Back in the beginning they still taught that the godhead was one being (not three, as Joseph changed his ideas on that later on), had to be naked, etc. In recent years the ceremony has changed to be less violent, slightly less sexist etc. All of this despite Joseph saying that if the ceremony ever changed, the church would be in apostasy. The church is not open about all of these changes, for obvious reasons, and are not a credible source.
