Is Under the Banner of Heaven ACCURATE?? | Part 2 

Read the book! The murderers were absolutely motivated by the brothers zelousness for actual church history and doctorine. The series and book are not intended to be a critique of Mormonism. Brenda's character and family in particular demonstrate a healthy/more modern and mainstream practice of the religion. The book really looks at the potential for extreme faith in religion to lead to some dark places.

I was in the church when the events happened, and the series gave me flashbacks. Talking down to women, interference with the law to preserve the church’s public image, and all the pressure on members brought back memories of my church experience.

I recommend you read “ RoughStone Rolling” by Richard Bushman and “No Man Knows My History” by Fawn Brodie. ..also “Studies from the Book of Mormon “ by BH Roberts. It’s a lot of reading but these three books are well documented.

Just an honest question: how can the church be true if so many ordinances have been changed? The church that JS created is nothing like the one now, so what makes it's true when so much has changed?

Allen bringing up church history is because Ron and Dan were actively searching for lost records… that include a lot of what’s in the flashbacks. That’s why they’re in there and that’s why Allen talks about it

Temples Mormon temple worship is sacred, not secret though strange to some, it's special to us. In the temple, we strive to come closer to Jesus Christ, learn more about God's plan for his children, and provide selfless acts of service for others. "Temples are beautiful inside & out.we as members believe them to be the house of the Lord, and a haven from the storms of life. Thus, a special feeling of peace and joy is felt by all who worship Inside temples around the world". Temples: Sacred places where those who are worthy may enter for further education and conduct ordinances (Preparation is required before entering a temple, as sacred ordinances and symbolisms otherwise would not be understood) Temples shall be in the midst of Christ's people forever - Ezekiel 37:26-28 Sacred things are taught by God personally in temples, things that are not known by others - Isaiah 2:2-3 Temples are the originating place of the Laws of Zion and Zion itself - Isaiah 2:3 Zion is a place of quiet habitation and it's temples and stakes shall always stand - Isaiah 33:20 Temples are quiet places of the Lord - Habakkuk 2:20 Throughout the Bible, the Lord has frequently told prophets to build temples for him to visit - 2 Samuel 7:5-6 The trumpet sounded from the temples - Joel 2:1 Sacred ordinances are carried out in Temples (12 bull font described) - Jer. 52:17 & 20 The lord designs his own temples, as he did with Solomon and Moses. This continues to this day. The teachings of the Lord are higher than typical mankind can perceive, requiring special instruction - Isaiah 55:8-9 Only those who are worthy may enter temples (requiring member worthiness interviews) - Psalms 24:3-5, 2 Chr. 23:19 Those bearing iniquity are not to enter temples, being at grave risk if they do - Exodus 28:43 King David was not even worthy to build the temple (let alone enter it), so his son Solomon had to build it - 1 Chr. 22:7-11 The temple's 12-oxen baptismal fonts (used for baptisms for the dead) described - 2 Chr. 4:2-10 & 4:15, Jer. 52:17 & 20 The temple always has been the sacred place to perform Baptisms for the dead - 1 Peter. 4:6, 1 Cor. 15:29, 2 Chr. 4:2-15 Hezekiah goes into a temple to communicate directly with God - Isaiah 37:14 Visions (and other sacred things) may be experienced in temples - Luke 1:22, Luke 2:27, Luke 2:46 Salt Lake City, the first temple, described as building in midst of mountains that nations will flock to and visit - Isaiah 2:2-3 Christ's own apostles are told that he can not disclose the full truth to them because they can not bear it - John 16:12 Temples are places where sacred ordinances are conducted in a proper environment, just as they always have been Baptisms for the dead - 1 Corinthians 15:29, 2 Chronicles 4:2-15, Jer. 52:17 & 20, 1 Peter 4:6, Heb. 11:40 Temple baptismal fonts on 12 oxen - 1 Kings 7:22-25, Chron. 4:2, Jer. 52:20 Washing - 2 Chronicles 4:6 Temple veil - Matthew 27:51 Anointings - Matthew 6:17, Exodus 28:41 Eternal marriage and relationship sealings (problem and solution) - Mark 12:18-25 and Matthew 16:13-19 Sealings by the Holy Spirit of Promise - Ephesians 1:13 Endowment: Christ shows his apostles "many signs" after resurrection (but intentionally left out of the Bible due to their sacred nature) - John 20:30 Adam’s prayer (at alter he built) - Psalms 54:2 Women veiled during temple prayer - 1 Cor. 11:5-6 Temples: Old Testament Trivia about Modern-Day Temples in Last Days When Utah was established as a state, the Mormons requested that the state be named "Deseret". The U.S. government, in spite of the Mormons, named it after the Ute Indians and called it Utah. Little did the government know that they had fulfilled prophecy, for the Indian name "Ute" translates to "top of the mountains" in native Ute Indian language. In Isaiah 2:2-3, we see that "And it shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the tops of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it." This is a direct scriptural reference to the Salt Lake Temple, which is surrounded by mountains, has people from all over the world traveling to it all year round, and is located in a place that is named "tops of the mountains" - not by the church, but by the Indians and the US government. So, the above scripture accurately translates to "...It shall come to pass in the last days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in Utah...". The temple construction had been completed in 1893, but the state of Utah wasn't named until 1896 by the government.

I would be very interested in watching the Brenda Lafferty case in a documentary setting, similar to what was done in "Murder Among the Mormons."

Super interesting that no one really remembered the “other detectives” name, Because they always say it so fast🙄. Maybe this show isn’t too far off after all..

This show has opened my eyes to BY in episode 5 .... excited to see what you think.

"It's almost like it's showing how Dan uses his faith and religion as a means to get to a political end." Can we think of any others who have done that? Can we objectively differentiate between those who have and those who have not?

24:55 I’d like to see an episode where the contents of your question shelves are discussed.

You guys are back?! Yippee I’m so happy! 😁

I have a cousin who watched this and has lost his mind. Will someone please talk about the actual accuracy of this show

I absolutely hate that line with the grandma saying that the Jews who don’t find Christ will be in the telestial kingdom with hitler, like 1. It’s inaccurate and comes out of nowhere and 2. other religions literally believe that if you don’t find Christ you will burn in hell forever, but no, we’re the bad and weird ones for letting everyone be in a kingdom of glory.

Watching this series so often felt like watching "The Singles Ward" juxtaposed with "The God Makers."

Curious what your credentials are to be adding your options aside from being a member?

The temple stuff and the church history ties into the show. I understand why its offensive to current Mormons, but I also see why it's vitally important if you are going to tell the story. It shows that blood atonement wasn't only taught but a required promise during this time period. It was until 1990. You promised to allow murder toward yourself and others if you broke your covenants.

Damn i first hears about mormen thing in the show and i am terrified from you guys

But is it weird because it makes you feel uncomfortable with your church? I'm not trying to come for anyone I'm just asking if you have really tried to watch with unbiasedness?

I will do anything I will go anywhere reminded me of that song "I will go where you want me to go" do what you want me to do, say what you want me say. I'll be what you want me to be dear lord. Thanks to the mormon church i have PTSD from my mission.

She says Hitler is in the terrestrial kingdom because the church did a baptism for the dead for him.

And the president of the church is supposed to be guided by god to talk about/change what’s in the church. So yes, if you believe the prophet gets divine guidance then you essentially are reaching out to god through his prophet

The reason that Adam focuses on the history is because the brothers are leaning towards the early days, trying to get the church back to it's original roots. Just as these guys were delusional there is a load of members who are in the LDS church that is delusional. All they have to say is that they got a revelation from GOD and you are just supposed to believe it. . . Does that sound right?

Do you honestly believe the gold plates and seer stones as the origin story for the Book of Mormon? Really? Does it actually make any sense to you?

I think you strike at the heart of the series when you acknowledge the Church's difficult history and admit you yourselves have questions about the Church and its past. I grew up in a protestant Christian church where I was discouraged-- and even silenced-- from questioning scriptural paradoxes, biblical misogyny, and the role of Christianity in our nation's bloody genocides and enslavements. I hope that the dogmatic nature of all major religions will ebb as young people like yourselves embrace transparency and pursue those aspects of spirituality that inspire people to lead meaningful, compassionate lives. I wonder how much your own faith-- and Brenda's sister's love-- clouded your perception of the series. Even as an atheist, I found Brenda's faith inspiring and pure.

I like the show

The sister of Brenda Lafferty said that the show got a lot of things wrong about her. The director and show creators said they visited Brenda's family so that the whole truth could come out. However, along with the fact that Brenda's former husband is still an active member of the Church (still goes to the temple as well) shows that the show got a lot of things wrong about the case

The Church History was used as justifications for the murder. To understand Blood Atonement, you have to understand how it came to be. The history is a device. It comes from the book.

Other religions don't have secret rights and ceremonies. Greek Fraternities and Sororities do and so do Freemasons. That's what makes Mormonism seem so cultish. I've been listening to the podcast Post-Mormon at the Movies discuss these episodes and it's two exMormons, a current LDS and his wife who is deconstructing. They are all from different areas of the country (she is from Salt Lake and grew up in that neighborhood) and they have a very different take on the things that jump out vs what is accurate depending on where they were raised and what their own families were like. You should check it out.

Yeah, I agree, showing the temple is a violation.

Thank you for making these videos! It's so important to show another perspective. By giving a genuine review from an LDS point of view, you are helping to combat all of the misinformation laid out in the show. There are a lot of people who will be curious after watching "Under the Banner of Heaven," who will want to do their own research. I know I was hung up on church history for years. The Spirit was literally dragging me to baptism and I was fighting it so hard. This channel helped me work through the tough stuff to finally be able to live the gospel. Keep it up, guys! 👏🏻

Why did they portray Joseph Smith as wearing fancy clothes he was a farmer. Farmers back then did not wear fancy clothes.

Honestly, I don't understand why showing temple practices is considered offensive. I grew up in the Catholic church and we have a bunch of traditions and rituals too. Even if they're shown in a negative way, I wouldn't feel offended that they showed it because it's actually what we did Also, talking about the Catholic church, there are a bunch of shows and movies out there talking about the pedophilia in the church, the "worship" of Mary, evil nuns, etc. None of them really offended me because they're partly true (not the evil nuns lol) but also because I know it doesn't reflect the majority of us.

A "panel" with no outside opinion is just an echo chamber. I'd be happy to have a discussion with any one of these guys to tell them how dangerous this can be.

looking up the writer for this Show is Dustin Lance Black, he grew up LDS but felt like he did not fit in as he was gay, he wrote for HBO's TV Show, big love. sounds like an Axe Grinder

It’s stuff like this that makes me wonder how inaccurate Hollywood makes a lot of things. If they really got this much stuff wrong about the church or manipulated little things into bigger things, it does make me question ideas on TV that are being presented as real. Like I can’t help but think of the “white savior” trope (if you don’t know what that means, it means movies where Black people are treated terribly and white people come in and defend them. A lot of Black people don’t love this type of narrative because it’s considered a bit of a micro aggression and not entirely true in most racial situations). Like I can see how people thought it made for great story telling and maybe they even thought they were trying to spread awareness but instead it just painted sort of a false picture of black struggles (please take what I said with a grain of salt though, as I am white myself and don’t want to speak for something I’m not. I am just paraphrasing things I’ve heard Black people talk about). I’m also honestly kind of skeptical of the Netflix FLDS documentary. I haven’t seen it yet, but I just don’t really trust shows that go out of their way to be overly negative towards a group. I don’t agree with some of that church’s teachings, but I know that there are a lot of individuals within that church who are good people and actually mean no harm. I can say that for just about any group. This show clearly has a problem with the church and feels like other people need to have a problem with the church too. The only people I know who enjoyed the show are people who are already angry at the church. But it’s kind of odd to me because there are so many blatant inaccuracies that I thought a lot of people who grew up in the church know are inaccuracies. But either they apparently didn’t learn that or they don’t seem to care that it’s inaccurate. I just find it dangerous though to not have facts straight when you are making some pretty big negative accusations. I feel like I could go on forever about this but I will leave it here 😂

This is interesting. As a non-LDS Christian, I found the Temple sequences to be very beautiful and moving, grumpy temple worker not withstanding.

I was baptized in 1969, in Brazil, but many of my friends married Americans that served mission down there (men and women), my wife's family joined the church in the middle of the seventies in Minnesota, by the way, my family on my mom side was form Jewish lineage, and my grandpa and several of my friends were Jewish converts (Ashkenazi and Sephardi) and we felt pretty much offended, because we were insulted by that film saying that our ancestors (many of them survived or were killed during the Shoah), would go to the Telestial kingdom and stay with Hitler. Complete nonsense! Thanks kids to put some light on the subject.

🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍🤍

I experienced a very snappy/mean temple worker in the Provo Utah temple. Completely ruined my day... (Leave it to Provo... 🙄)

MOST religions that aren’t creepy don’t have secret rites. You could attend a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, or Jewish wedding ceremony, every part of it. Nobody minds if you aren’t a member. Same for Baptism for religions that do it. But not Mormons.

Even back in the 80s no Bishop's office looked anything that elaborate.

If something that happened routinely in temple ceremonies 40 years ago makes you uncomfortable, how can you not feel conflicted about the Joseph Smith's claims about the temple fundamentally? Many changes have happened since JS came on the scene... at what point do we break from JS altogether?

Catholics have been on earth for 2000 years. You can trace every bishop of Rome Successor of St Peter to the first bishop of Rome which yes is St Peter Jesus Apostle. Jesus Christ started the Catholic Church. The true Apostolic church. 2000 years. The True Church of Christ.

How can you say religion had nothing to do with it? They were excommunicated for their heretical views. I can understand why some want to deny that because your Church wants to play down the church’s history in favor of modern interpretations. You don’t want to think about your church’s view of polygamy or black people because it’s politically inconvenient. Supposedly your prophets have had very convenient visions or whatever that undo the visions of previous prophets. Can’t you see this convenient revisionism for what it is?

Secret handshakes through a sheet is creepy.

This ironic thing is that out of all the things you could have a problem with, this is what you’ve chosen to rant about. Glad you guys are enjoying the show.

Straight up, guy in the middle is gay. I'd bet my life. No judgement, just hilarious in the context

I really love your videos and you guys but there's just one thing which kinda bothers me. You keep using"Mormens" in your titles. Please change that. Just a little reminder what President Nelson said in 2018: "Thus, the name of the Church is not negotiable. When the Savior clearly states what the name of His Church should be and even precedes His declaration with, “Thus shall my church be called,” He is serious. And if we allow nicknames to be used or adopt or even sponsor those nicknames ourselves, He is offended."

Funny thing about it is those people who make movies making the church look creepy will still get a kingdom in heaven. Amazing isnt it

Seems like calling the series “absolute fiction,” is in regards to the actual accuracy of the crimes and people involved, but is it absolute fiction in regards to the lds church? Seems like that’s a separate issue and it might just be uncomfortable to watch your faith look creepy to others. I don’t feel like you can therefore call every single thing in the show absolute fiction, especially things about church history or church practices. Seems like that route is an easy way to not acknowledge the weird parts of the church that the show depicts

Notice how the only things they say are "accurate" things in the show is stuff that puts the church in a good light and all the "bad" things are JusT NoT TruE... I'm glad that none of the mormon people are rude or off-putting or that everything just seems creepy... If you're not brought up in this religion IT IS CREEPY!!!! And as a non-member religious leader has been VERY rude to my friends and me in the past because we told them we had no interest. So please stop discrediting others experiences with your own

You guys are silly in a lot of your talking points. But a few of them are valid and actually have to do with being a review of the movie and not just things that bug you. That bishop's office was actually pretty accurate for the '80s, there are so many old church buildings in the Utah valley, that are not at all like the cookie cutter buildings of today that you probably have only ever seen. You say the whole thing is offensive to the LDS church. Well you are right, but it is pretty much spot on with the accuracy. Sorry it makes you uncomfortable that the comparisons to the LDS church are actually what fueled this murder, which is what the story is about. The movie wasn't just like hey let's talk about all the weird things about the LDS church for no reason at all. Have to see you have to see it in context, and you are looking at it on the surface level of hey it's offensive. It's just like the book of Mormon musical, it is offensive to all religions really, but they are not wrong on most points for accuracy to the LDS church. Eagle scout. Glad they got they part right 🙄 In the movie, it wasn't necessary to show the meaning behind the endowment ceremony, they just needed to show the part that was literally related to the plot, and the murder method. Even if it isn't something that is done in the temple today, it was done in the temple all the way up to 1990, so there is relevance. When Allen laugherty was bringing up all the points of church history, he was doing it because he was involved with his brothers in all of their meetings, and he knew that they were looking back on the earlier teachings of the church, so yes his comments are relevant. What do you mean what evidence points to our church history? The church history before there were split-offs to fundamentalism, are exactly the things that the Lafferty's were studying, that led to the murder. as far as pyre being a fictional character, obviously every conversation was fictional, but do you not understand the purpose of a literary device? Pirate was a fictional character that served as the instrument to bring all of the facts of the story together, it represented all the research that had been done to solve the case. The one thing I think you got right, is when you said the one thing "I think is that Dan Lafferty is using his religious beliefs to get to a political end." At least you are acknowledging that maybe the religious beliefs have to do with the story. If you watch a lot of other reviews of the series, the vast majority of utahans that grew up in the church in the '80s said that the use of heavenly father, and brother and sister, and the other things that feel weird that nobody says today, we're actually common back then. They say yes, we totally used to talk that way. If you do a little research, and watch some interviews with Dustin Black, he must certainly does have some issues with the LDS Church, specifically regarding his mother and the way she was treated in the church, and the subservience of women. The reference to what you said was sarcastically being told to put your questions on the shelf, is a very real thing. Members that ask leaders about their questions about church history, are most often told to not address those questions. They either don't have the answers, or don't want people to go down the path of finding out ugly truths. Even though they claim the truths are there to be found and that they have been there all along, they still tell you to not worry about it. All of that being said, I do understand your offense to the massive amounts of references to church history, however you have to understand that a lot of people inside and outside the LDS church who have or have not researched it, do see how bizarre and possibly unbelievable these details are. And whether or not you are offended, these things most certainly did have to do with the true story of the Lafferty murder, and some details on different levels than others.

playing that music over anything makes everything so much creepier. When they started playing that music over the temple scene I felt so disgusted. This series has been taking unnecessary and undeserved shots at the church.

I am not Elvia sitting room but one thing that I didn't like about this wabout this was the portrayal of the temple workers. Those are some of the sweetest people I have ever met in my entire life and there is no way that intimidating energy was ever in the temple of the Lord

I urge everyone to read the reply of the author to the LDS "review" of his book. I learned long ago that there is truth and them there's LDS truth. LOL Whether it's Smith's conduct, polygamy, the Book of Abraham, lack of archaeological or DNA evidence, numerous errors in the BOM, blood atonement, racism, etc the church has an "explanation". We are talking about a movie version of a book - a huge difference. Krakauer reveals a subculture but is it never stated that there are numerous sects - Strangites, Fundamentalist, Community of Christ, Bickertenites (and more) all claiming to be original and based on "revelation" (another big element in the story). The LDS says these revelations are false (but theirs, of course, are true). It's telling that Fundamentalist follow original teachings and traditions of the church. Many LDS critics complained about the invented Det Pyre character and his loss of faith. I thought it accurate considering I've seen the same thing in those who began investigating the origins of Mormonism or who went on expensive "historical digs" that would prove the BOM's stories. A neighbor, a chemist, I was surprise to learn was once an active Mormon but the DNA fiasco cemented his belief that it was all fiction.

I'm with you guys. My heart goes out to those who have left our faith and I do think that there are problems with how people address hard topic in the church. I am also very disappointed that there is a show that 1. shows temple ordinances in a very insidious light and 2. just seems to take so many cheep shots at the church in general. This show could have been really great. I was kinda disappointed to see some articles and realize that the creators of this show don't have good feelings toward the church. It's also kind of funny because, in those articles, it seems like the creators wanted to reveal the truth of the church and stick it to the man. But in the end it just comes off as disrespectful and even cringey from what you have descried. I hope that we can get media that explores the church in a more thoughtful and nuanced way in the future.

I feel like y’all really miss the point of this series. It’s not about the church today it’s about it’s history and how it was then. This makes you uncomfortable and so defensive because it’s the truth about your churches history. If they showed how the temple is now that would not be accurate. Also they are addressing extreme Mormons, Mormon fundamentalists… so yes in a normal case you wouldn’t jump to scripture and history to solve a case but cases like this need that knowledge and sympathy to get the answers they need. You feel discomfort about the past of your religion because it’s unknown and shameful and just like in American history swiped under the rug to make it seem like the white men are the heroes rather than those that were hostile. We must accept our history in order to not relive it. This is an important time for this show with freedoms being taken away from women currently. The most accurate family that represents modern Mormonism is Brenda’s family because they were more forward thinking and moving forward with the times and church, while Utah had always been the last to change and where FLDS are the most prevalent.

I left the church, but I ended up just not watching 3 and 4 since the writing is terrible and it's unimmersive / boring. Though to be fair, most religions don't care about rites and rituals / prayers being filmed. Hell, everyone in Hajj films it, and back in India the same thing is done. I think that's just an LDS thing honestly.

All religions have different degrees of fundamentalism depending on time and place, so to say that this is not your experience with LDS is probably true, but it doesn't mean that it is universally true for everyone. I'm an agnostic/determinist, so I empathize with your desire to defend what probably seems like an attack on your faith. You can't help that your experiences and relationships within LDS are so positive and in no way would influence you to commit violence. If you had been born in a different time and place and been taught the faith by people with less modern sensibilities, your beliefs and thus your life choices would be very different. Very curious to see your reactions to the final episodes. People of all religions, free yourselves from the shackles of ancient superstitions!

It's weird because its reflecting lds culture and beliefs which is normal to think it's weird because it is it's only offensive because you believe in the lds church which is normal for lds member s to feel offended by the weird truth and history about the church I think you guys are just looking for reasons to dislike it because it your lds and it makes the religion seem very strange

You say things aren’t applicable today. That’s the problem with your religion. You keep changing. The Bible doesn’t change.

It seems like the church is pretty integral to what happened to Brenda. Like I don’t think it’s possible to stray when discussing excommunicated fundies. 🤷🏾‍♀️ especially when church leaders burdened the victim with “saving” the fundies… 🫠

I also find this series cringeworthy, but to be fair to the comment that any religious ceremony would be offensive if shown, well most religions I know of do not have ceremonies that need to be done behind closed doors.

Baptizing the death for people who never asked for it is creepy and offensive.

So many conflicting interpretations, so many different ideas of theology, so many different versions of the history, customs etc. This is the problem with most religions, everyone has their own perception of what's being taught. This is the what happened to the Lafferty's with their overbearing zealot father and a mother who believed he was their king they raised those boys to believe what THEY believed and sent them over the edge in their pursuit of self fulfilling dogma.

This is the antithesis of the "Saints" approach, instead of a compelling accurate nattarive woven through story, it is a purposeful misrepresentation woven through story, not hard to see what force is behind this,

If you make it about Mormons, it's way more click bait-y.

Dustin Lance Black has years of promoting this agenda. Just research him, and his past work.

It represents your church accurately

My biggest problem with this show (besides the fact that it is trying to use a real life tragedy to push an agenda that has almost nothing to do with the real life situation) is that it presents church history in a completely unfair and at times a completely inaccurate way. I really hope that people don’t use this show as an educational device about the church, hopefully they just watch it for what it is, a true crime drama.

I wonder if Schizophrenia or Psychosis runs in the Lafferty family. These weren't the actions of sane men. They needed therapy and meds.

The bottom line is that this shows target audience are ex-mos and edgy athiests. They find a story about a guy digging through church history and losing his faith inspiring. It speaks to their experience and perspective And in all honesty that's fine. There's plenty of LDS content we enjoy/find inspiring that ex-mos/edgy athiest can't relate to. However, it does mean that this show is not for us believing LDS people

Do you ever get tired of answering the same questions over, and over again? It's as if one good response to a persons question. Isn't enough. Stop the insanity.

You should definitely do an episode on the peacemaker. The show’s portrayal of it was just completely ahistorical

That series is such a joke

You all DID baptize Hitler to your faith.

At this point, anyone still saying this show is an accurate representation of our faith is a liar and a deceiver.

You're in a cult, gain some self awareness.

WHY on earth do you guys still keep using the word Mormon when multiple prophets have commanded us not to, have told us it offends the Savior and is flat wrong?!! C'mon, STOP using Mormon's name, we're Saints!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!