it very much is like Ancestral Guardians Spirit Shield, which also uses the barb's reaction to mitigate damage (although it starts at 2d6 and gets better). the UA version definitely seemed more powerful for higher levels. being hit by 30 points of damage and reducing that by 15 is better than getting hit by 30 and reducing it by ~5-9 damage. but if you manage to use the damage mitigation every round over a couple rounds, then it may be better in the long run.
@@_claymore I didn't catch it. It does use your reaction, correct? A 5 damage reduction every turn is better than half damage for one turn. (Think of blade ward) Anyway, you can stack this damage mitigation with things like heavy armor master or barbarian (maybe)
@@dragonhearthx8369 a reduction of ~5 points every turn is definitely better than half damage on one turn. but a character has only one single reaction per round, so you can't use the mitigation more than once per round.
I’m 100% in agreement, I think Fathomless Plunge is just plain disappointing. Not only compared to Unleash the Depths but to other warlocks 14th level feature. Imagine playing for a year, finally reaching those high levels, all your friends are super excited by their newest high level feature, and you end up arguing with your dm about the abundance of bodies of water so you can get your 1 mile teleport.
Don't forget that the unearthed arcana had a time limit. Also if you're in a landlocked campaign, your telepathy and breathing underwater are not going to come up that much either.
@@dragonhearthx8369 if you're playing in a landlocked campaign, this subclass doesn't make the most sense to choose. At the same time, picking this subclass, more importantly this patron, kind of means you won't be playing a land-locked campaign.
I feel this is disappointing because it is very situational in the right campaign it would be pretty helpful but outside the right setting it is useless.
@@keldon_champion you know I wonder if you can choose where to appear around the body of water. If you can you could possibly travel across the ocean in an instant.
@@jacobdavis6604 Capstones, even when niche, should be impactful and not extremely difficult to pull off. That is just poor design. So many things have to be properly set up for the feature to even trigger, let alone for it to be useful. WotC dropped the ball hard on this one.
21:30 A pond is a pond. That's a soft limit so that people can't teleport to a glass of water they saw at the tavern. I think they could have kept the long range on that teleport tbh.
they could have simply specified the size with numbers, so there's no discussion what the minimum is. but somehow they love to be nebulous with certain wording for absolutely no reason.
If they just made it a body of water big enough to fit all the people being teleported that would make enough sense, but the distance nerf and stipulation that you had to be there recently would still make it much too situational for such a high level ability.
Why even play with the water restrictions if you can just use the UA version where the teleport was not limited to a particular body of water but any and all places you've seen in the last 24 hours? I mean if the place where I activate my Kraken Portal entrance has no bodies of water around it, why can't it open in another place without any bodies of water for the exit, as well?
Can’t wait for genie warlock; since the subclass was talked about for tashas I’ve had this character idea; angsty air genasi teenager, warlock of the genie, who’s patron is his overbearing djinn father. “I didn’t ask for these powers, DAD!”
I really like this subclass but I feel the same way about the capstone ability. I wonder though if you could maybe make a pond with create water before a big fight or stealth mission to have a guaranteed teleport out, personally as a DM I would allow it given how niche the usefulness of the ability is.
Yeah this is what I was thinking, use create water to make a small pond outside a lair or something. I agree, it’s so niche this strat should be allowed.
With Create and Destroy Water you could make you own pond before setting off down a dungeon. It's not a good solution, but could increase the amount of times you'd use it, even if it does cost a very precious spell slot
Create or Destroy Water using a 5th level slot would only make 50 gallons of water. The smallest hot tub I could find on homedepot.com holds about 200 gallons, which would take all your warlock slots to fill.
@@SybilantSquid So you have to spend hours making a pond just so your capstone can be useful? I am sorry, but that is terrible game design and poor balancing.
they also don't need to prepare spells, it only really is that unique because sorcerer and bards don't have expanded spells lists (since spells lists generally count as always prepared and they don't prepare them)
@@lilydespins2009 but that’s not how the base classes were designed My point was that warlocks hardly have something to be compared to, since the classes that would be similar (in the sense of not preparing spells) don’t inherently get expanded spell lists (like warlocks or clerics)
If I was a DM, that is something I would always rule. More options is not a broken concept when they only have a grand total of like 4 spell slots at max.
The new fathomless plunge seems very underwhelming. Even the wording is lame. "You vanish in a whirl of tentacles" vs "your patron tears through reality and pulls you through their realm." the first is just a simple ability while the second is a scary flavorful event that is not fully under your control, so the DM could play around with that. It's an opportunity for the patron to talk to the Warlock. Have you angered your patron? Maybe they'll pull you to their realm when you use this ability and won't let you go on to the intended target location... TLDR the old one was cooler.
@@Booklat1In the UA version you literally call your patron into this world to do your bidding, which would be a bad idea if you're not on good terms with them. Anyways, I would give many obvious warnings before kidnapping the player (or possibly the entire party) and even then build it as an encounter they can prepare for and that is winnable. You'll be at least lvl 14 when that happens so you'll have many tools at your disposal. If the player(s) don't want to deal with such conflicts in their game that would have been discussed beforehand, likely resulting in: 1. solutions to the problem that are more readily available 2. a patron who has goals that align with the party or 3. a patron who has a less personal connection with the warlock and doesn't care much what they do. I wouldn't force it on an unwilling player, I just find the storytelling potential of the UA version much more interesting.
@@LethalLemonade I mean, if they took the opportunity to make something fun then great I’m just a bit too aware of people trying to exploit features into situations that will harm characters. Personally I think it would be fine to make the ability work like the warlock’s 20th lvl ability (not restoring slots but kinda giving you this moment to talk with your patron)
@@Booklat1 You're right. You are a bit too aware of that. A good DM would make an incredible and memorable experience for their players by having them come face-to-face with the Warlock's patron. Whether it's a brief conversation and catching up with your Cosmic Narwhal or it's the Colossal Kraken interrogating the Warlock as to why there haven't been any sacrifices to him lately. D&D is a cooperative story-telling game, and things like this can make for interesting arcs, pit-stops, etc.
This warlock pairs so well with lance of lethargy. I can already see a Warlock build with this subclass that casts slow through invocation, summons a tentacle as a bonus action, and slows everything
Use Hunger of Hadar first to trap them in difficult terrain and have repelling blast to push them back in first. If you have a familiar from pact of the tome or pact of the chain you can get one with blindsight and see through it so you can still target things inside.
I'm redesigning and combining the two to make it balanced and not as easily abused for long distance travel. If you want, I'll post the full edit, but it's essentially: start with the UA version, make it so you can only choose one option per day but if you choose Transport you can use it once per short rest (or twice per long rest if you prefer), change the teleport range to 10 miles, remove the "must have seen it within the last 24 hours" nonsense. Now it's usable and not as broken
My changes for Fathomless Plunge are: As an action you can teleport yourself and up to 5 creatures within 30 feet of you. You can teleport up to 10 miles to places you have seem either in person or through the use of some kind of divination. If there is a body of water large enough for you to submerge yourself in that is within range, you can teleport there without needing to see it. Tentacles warp around you and your targets, taking you to your destination and leaving you all any unoccupied squares. If you teleported to a body of water you have not seen, you and your targets will appear in unoccupied squares within 30 feet of the water. Creatures that are hostile to you that are not grappled or restrained can make a DEX saving throw against your spell save DC to avoid being teleported. On a success they move out of the tentacles grasp and are not teleported. You regain this ability after finishing a short or long rest.
I like the transition from modifier to prof bonus. It makes you powerful as you progress in your story rather than being something innate from your attributes. I personally prefer growing into my power rather than being capped at level 4 ASI if i rolled well. It also has the added bonus of making multi Class less Mad.
I would keep the "body of water you've seen" requirement of the capstone ability, but I would allow it to work any distance. That could be pretty cool in the right campaign
The stat modifier to prof bonus is a weird change to make this deep into the edition without revising previous classes/subclasses too. It makes these new subclasses work fundamentally different from the old ones. We're at the point that 5e kinda needs a 5.5, but we got a...5.1 optional?
Are you complaining that they are iterating on design and exploring new space mechanically? Are you saying they should have all new features use the same design concepts that they originally had? They shouldn't be allowed to explore new design space unless it's in a new edition? What kind of complaint is this?
@@JelloBrand how dare I have opinions on the internet!!!! I don't like two different design philosophies operating in the same ed. It makes tashas classes feel very inconsistent with the core. I would have liked to see proposed optional class/spec features, like they did for beastmaster but no other existing spec, that would bring the existing stuff in line with tashas stuff. This would make using tashas allow you to bring the game to 5.25 ed, with consistent application of stuff like prof bonus per long rest usage on features. Given how light tashas is on new content, I am disappointed to not see this. It would have taken maybe one page per class. Now I either have to home brew it myself, or deal with the inelegant asymmetry of two different design philosophies operating in the same game, which I hate for aesthetic reasons. (Or ofc, not use these subclasses at all). I hope holding an opinion on game design is acceptable to you.
@@greglohman6750 I for one am hoping that they start retroactively applying the proficiency times per long rest. Especially to the Way of the Four Elements monk.
@@greglohman6750 okay I'm not arguing with someone who changes the debate from "we need a 5.5e" to "I think they should've given each class optional features to make it semi 5.25" That's just inconsistent. I was arguing against the need for a new edition when exploring new design space should be encouraged. I'm sorry you think a few subclasses using different design (especially as minor as prof. Bonus over main stat bonus) warrants a new edition because it is aesthetically unpleasant to you. Also how do you have to "deal with the inconsistencies" it's not like you will be thinking "Oh well in the PHB some clerics use Wis mod for this thing, but since this Tasha's subclass uses prof. I don't know what to do?" You can have your opinion, I am just debating its validity. I think we as fans of the game should embrace the exploration of new design instead of refuting it and saying they should've just made a new edition and kept things in line with the old way. But you are entitled to your opinion and I mean no disrespect by debating this with you. Since your reply came off as defensive, I will apologize if my initial comment felt like I attacked you, that was not my intention.
What’s great about “oceanic soul” is that it says “any creature” that is also fully submerged can understand your speech. You can still talk to fish. You can still be aquaman.
I am playing a swashbuckler/fathomless warlock with a sailor background. She made a deal to save her ship and in exchange she agreed that in 10yrs she would join ‘The Forgotten Fleet,’ which is a bunch of undead sailors who do her patrons bidding. However neither members of the forgotten fleet nor her patron can set foot on land. So, 10yrs later, she is on the run, forced to never set foot on the sea again. Warlocks have such excellent RP potential, and I love the flavor of the fathomless.
I would say that "a body of water" that you can teleport to would have to be one where your party could realistically all stand in, so a decent sized pond would work or a long river would work if you teleport in a line, but a glass of water wouldn't work 🤷♀️
Yeah, if I were a DM judging that ability I'd say anything the party could all stand in together, and has a relatively constant presence (so not a puddle in town square) would work. It does have interesting applications if ocean travel is a focus of the campaign
I think an important change for all warlocks would be that any warlock with pact of the blade to be able to attack with their charisma with their pact weapon. Hexblade still gets it early and gets the medium armor first, so this doesn't take away much from hexblade, plus hexblade still has enough of its own stuff. Plus it just makes more sense, it gives more to the other sub classes. It would be sweet to be a paladin and multi class into a celestial warlock to get an even closer relationship to your god, and focuses on charisma for their weapon and spells.
My DM gave me a custom evocative that added my Charisma modifier to attack and damage rolls, and let me stack it with the evocative that adds my Charisma modifier as necrotic damage. Then I got a Rot Blade, which is a +2 Reskinned Flame Brand greatsword that does necrotic rather than fire damage. Which means every successful attack is 2d6 slashing plus 2d6 necrotic plus 5 necrotic plus 7 damage. Who needs Eldritch Blast?
I would discourage (but never ban) one of my players from choosing this unless the campaign had a focus on water travel. It doesn't have to be a full on Water World setting...but making it a pirates or world exploration game would be better for a full 20 lv Warlock of this pact.
I would definitely talk to the player. But if we're going to LVL 20 and they've chosen this and we don't have some kind of water adventure at some point, I think that would be a failing on my part. A warlock's backstory is more strongly connected to their patron/subclass compared to some classes and if I'm writing an adventure for a party that will last till LVL 20, I'm going to be using their abilities and class features and backstory for ideas.
You would be surprised how much water should up, sewers, moats, rivers, lakes, and all sorts of things. If water doesn’t come up at least 8 times in your game then you aren’t a very creative person nor are you thinking about maps. A lot of the time water is an obstacle. It should be. It’s a fun one. The swim speed chracters will be happy and so will the athletics people and your wizard who chose jump.
I just don't understand the nerf to the 10th level ability in terms of letting it be cold or lightning damage, or getting rid of an ENTIRE PARAGRAPH off the 14th level ability (on top of the frankly unnecessary nerf to the distance traveled). Like, if they had just nerfed the Guardian Coil it'd have been fine, but, good lord. Kicking a subclass while it's down. Frankly I'd just let my players use the nerfed Guardian Coil, but give them the original 10th and 14th level abilities of the UA. Maybe buff the AoE of the UA 10th to match Evards. Anything but going with this new raw printing.
I think there are two main reason for the switch from attribute bonus to proficiency bonus uses of powers. The proficiency bonus has a minimum of 2 while attribute bonuses can be 0 or less giving no uses, this eliminates the "(minimum 1)" boiler plate. Second proficiency bonus provides a steady and predictable power progression with level which makes is a lot easier to balance the powers.
If you do makes a video about fixing the Warlock class, do check out Treant Monk’s videos on the subject. Chris makes PDFs of his changes and then walks through them in video format.
I think the thing about this subclass is it’s very dependent on the campaign you’re playing. An Egyptian inspired tomb world set in a lifeless desert would put a ton of limitations on this subclass...but running this during island hopping theros or ghosts of saltmarsh campaign could see so much utility! I think they nailed how thematic this subclass is
I couldn't think of a good idea for this warlock patron at first. but I've been playing a Yuan-ti pure blood (with the last UA rules) with Dendar as her patron, and just themed all the tentacles to snakes. The highly aquatic nature of this warlock patron works great thematically for snakes/serpents as well although it dose go a bit beyond with water breathing. This published version looks like it will work just as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out on the table.
The BBEG of my last campaign was a Fathomless Warlock, and let me tell you. It was terrifying. My characters thought he was summoning Great Old ones because *tentacles* but then he would just casually walk on water, or teleport through water and it was truly horrifying. As the BBEG he had some crazy scary items too, and was also multiclassed but yeah. I'd say it's a good subclass based on that horrifyingly incredible experience
Yeah that capestone turned out kinda screwy. I think the best solution would have been for the developers to choose either 1 mile -> teleport wherever you want, or 100 miles -> teleport to a body of water. Limiting it in both ways just made it impractical.
Because of the spell slot mechanic it's harder to fix the Warlock than just gaining the additional spells as bonus spells. When I've thought about it I also look at adding bonus invocations (at 5th, 11th and 16th level) that you get automatically based on your pact, so Blade gets Thirsting blade at 5th, Deadly Blade (reskinned Vampiric) at 11th and an actual Vampiric Blade (you gain half the damage you do as temp HP) at 16th. In addition rewriting a lot of the invocations to make them worth taking, so for example the one that allows you to cast Jump at will at 9th becomes "You gain the Jump spell and can cast it once per long rest without expending a spell slot, this becomes once per short rest at 5th level in this class and at will at 9th".
The Fathomless is just a variation of Lovecraftian themes. While Great Old One is more generalist, the Fathomless has some roots in ancient folklore and is WAY more thematically interesting. Also, think of it like this, Lovecraft had a love of making horror around the "unknown". His stories focus on realms that are not well understood during his times, mostly what lies beyond the stars, and what hides beneath the deep trenches of the ocean. The difference between both is as great as Azathoth and Dagon. Great Old One is what lies beyond the stars (Astral Plane), Fathomless is what hides within great bodies of water (Water Plane, Shadowsea of the Abyss). I wanted to make a warlock like this like a year ago, and had to homebrew some stuff to make it work. With this subclass I wouldn't have had to do that. So ye, I like it :D
Famthomless Plunge's usefulness would be determined by the campaign setting. In most campaigns, it would be very limited, but in a swashbuckling pirate themed campaign, it would see more usage since most of the campaign would be around the ocean, giving you a free 1 mile teleport in any direction on a short rest. It would make traveling easier for characters without natural swim speeds, since most would take forever to swim a mile. Also it doesn't seem limited by altitude, so teleport to an area underwater like an undersea cave or underwater ruins that are within range.
Proficiency vs ability modifier is a moot debate. I'm glad they're using both, and I think it could actually encourage multiclassing. As I said in another comment, it all comes down to the ability in question, whether a (nearly) flat bonus or value (of +4, let's say) is balanced at all levels, or whether the scaling nature of proficiency would be more appropriate. This option broadens the range of potential abilities given to subclasses, especially their lvl 1-3 ability.
I’d allow Fathomless Plunge to work on unconscious allies and also allow the party to be teleported to any body of water within that mile. For fun maybe even out of water in something small like a cup. Just have them explode out of tentacles that erupted from the liquid. Would make for a fun and useful escape feature that way.
I was playing a Warlock, picked up 1 level Cleric of Trickery, got some flavor, and fit in back story. I think that ended up being super handy. Hey, fighter let me cancel your disadvantage when your sneaking, and roll an extra 1d4 on that check as well. Also, I used my warlock spells slots for Cure spells and the 2 levels 1 cleric spells for low-level warlock spells that did not get anything extra from my higher level warlock spells. When at level 4, in one day you can cast 8x 2nd level cure spells, cause the fighter needs better armor, you quickly become the favorite.
I would say, with taking create and destroy water with fathomless plunge gives you a short rest anchor point teleport, basically creating a pool of water outside a dungeon to bamf yourself out of when you want to be done.
Personally, having abilities key off prof. bonus makes sense to me. As you get more powerful, you'll develop greater control over your abilities, whatever source they come from.
@@mattf5935 Admittedly, though, with modifier based features, a fighter multiclassing could more easily have multiple 20s in ability scores. And a level 19 fighter giving up their 4th Extra Attack for a dip in another class might as well get more uses of whatever that class has.
Prof instead of modifier balances out characters at earlier levels that have huge difference in their stat assignment. The inconsistency of using one or another is still bothering me. :(
absolutely did in Homebrew we just added the patrons spell list to the warlock I was using cuz it seemed kind of stupid to have a patron with special spells and have to choose between them and the ordinary spells that a warlock gets to choose from
I agree that the feature fathomless plunge is unncessary restrictive. Though, you could use create water/mold earth in order to artificially create an area that should qualify for that teleport, if it works as I think it does.. You might argue that it's a little more on the weak side, but at least it is a good enough escape route. Requires a little planning, of course.
Also the 100miles in 24 hours is really hard to do unless you have a really fast mode of travel. Cause you could only teleport within 100miles to a place you have visited within 24 hours. But yeah they should have just made it say 10miles get rid of the water and 24hr requirements
Aside from writing an entire errata on 5e my group has come to accept a table rule that if an ability would mention modifier per long rest or proficiency per long rest it is now both and you take which ever is higher. Either dump some stats and get the benefits later or have higher stats earlier but lose out on other stats.
A lot has been said about Prof. Bonus vs. Ability Score. One thing that should be mentioned is that you still usually benefit from a high Ability Score, since it usually applies to any saving throw or attack roll, so its like like its a waste. Its also not hard to get a 18-20 Ability score at an early level... so it sort of feels bad that a level 5 PC can use an ability the same number of times as a level 20. Functionally, its a substitute for any "You gain extra uses for this ability at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level." but in a Multi class friendly way.
The expanded spells list is much more similar to what a bard gets with Magical Secrets. The number of options increases, but you still have to pick something and live with it for a while. It's fine if you just don't like the mechanics, but they're not particularly strange. Of course, something being "a standand" doesn't rule out still sucking.
As a whole, I feel like this class was created as WOTC’s response to Fjord on Critical Role - it feels very niche in that sort of way (expanding a bit in that sense due to the rebranding from “Lurker in the Deep” to “Fathomless”). That said, it’s a lot of awesome flavor for your abilities, and (like others have said) if anyone wants to run one in my campaigns, you can use the Unearthed Arcana’s capstone, ‘cause that’s a nasty nerf. I can totally get the thematics of the hardlock on water, but if you’re going to restrict me on where I can teleport to, give me the range to actually teleport. If you want to restrict the range, don’t hardlock me to only be able to teleport around water. Also, given how nerfed this ability was, they totally should have made it a Proficiency Bonus number of times per Long or Short rest, so long as you can, given the distance and restriction. ...but yeah, if you don’t like it, it’s not like WOTC can stop you from changing it up for your games.
Okay, even though my homebrew thing is focus on the genie warlock. This is a good reference for what I'm doing for my fix, your patron has the spell list you call upon your patron to cast the spell they are added to your spell list, they do not count as against your spell list. Granted, the downside is that you have to heavily relying on your patron's power levels, but then there's more thematic supply the personality of your patron ongoing. As for the final ability I say do a bit of flavor adjustments. Like you summoned a portal of water beneath you, that is roughly 1 mile wide. All those that are willing to go with you can travel within that particular portal to another body of water that you know of. Would be a little bit better. I mean a free mass teleport would be really good, especially if you're like doing of being carrying procession or something. Or you can flavor the point that hey now you can teleport entire ship, most ships aren't going to be a mile-long. I would say just a minor reworkings would be making that final ability really good.
Fathomless Plunge: make it 100 miles and the water restricition seems fine by me. That will make the maping of lakes and rivers a nice side quest. Just have the number of your local limnologist at the ready to solve any "is this a body of water" disputes.
Fill a portable with water. Boom. Instant pond. :P Though in all seriousness it's primarily going to be useful in a nautical campaign which allows teleporting around the ocean. But the one mile limit is ridiculously small.
Change the water limitation to a body of water at least 30‘ x 30‘ feet and change the distance to 100 miles or at least 10 ( or just to be thematic you could change it to 10 nautical miles)
I personally have always been giving all the subclass spells to my warlock players when I DM, it just seems logical since all other subclasses do the same and have never had any problems. On another note, I don’t mind the other changes that were made to this subclass, other than I liked when sacrificing a tentacle meant cutting damage in half, but the last feature was just so good and flavorful in the UA, but the new version just seems bland and not as useful.
I agree. When I first began dming I had not played many of the classes so when my warlock player said the spells didnt get prepared I was dumbfounded and just immediately changed it. So far it has not been a problem
The proficiency bonus thing makes sense to me, kinda prevents those over powered early level characters that got high stats in creation from abusing them
I think I would DM rule that the capstone would be a body of water within 10 miles. It is mass teleport so damn strong but any river or large creek/stream (5 foot wide or more) seems reasonable. Basically this does as worded mean a large puddle could be a "pond" if it harbors life.
As someone who played a lot of the Lurker in the Deep, there are goods and bads. The proficiency bonus change is a bit sad but is balanced with Guardian Coil not disappearing after its use. One of the biggest things for me was the change for Devouring Maw. Contrary to popular belief, I found Devouring Maw quite underwhelming mechanically, purely because it didn’t restrain targets if they enter or start their turn in the area, whereas Evard’s does. The capstone ability is a bit of a let down but overall I think the class hasn’t been gutted in any sense. Just changed. Btw Ted, love the content. Keep it up ❤️
So on the 14th level teleport, a couple of points for consideration. The ocean is one body of water larger than a pond, as such if you are within a mile of the coast, you could use this ability to travel to literally the other side of the planet, meaning if they wanted to tie it to water (which makes more thematic sense than just "here, have a teleport" for an aquatic patron) then requiring you to be physically close to the ocean to pull this off makes sense as a limiting factor. Second point, I frankly find it rather unlikely that a player would have a fathomless warlock in a campaign where they aren't hanging out around water for a significant period at least. I see this class being played in subaqauatic games, in pirate or naval games, etc. I don't see this being played in a desert game, and let's be real here, if you aren't in a desert (which a tundra is technically a desert) and you can't easily get within a mile of a pond size or larger body of water in real life, then I have no clue where in the world you would be. Granted pond isn't a super well defined term, but I would define a pond as basically a puddle one could conceivably swim in, because ponds are generally rain fed like puddles, as opposed to fed by a river, aquafer, or plumbing, but notably large enough that folks swim or fish in them (generally). Now, as for whether a river or stream qualifies as a body of water, that's a bit more of a subject for debate, AFAIK, but based on my current understanding I'd say they technically don't qualify, but as I think running water like that isn't considered a "body" per se, but I could easily be wrong about that; that said, as a DM I'd look into it, and if my definitions are correct, then I'd rule that a river is big enough but a stream or creek might not be, because AFAIK streams and creeks aren't deep enough to swim in but a river is. That I feel is the real sticking point for a class like this, is if you ask the question of "could someone conceivably swim here" and the answer is yes the ability works. I would also let it work with swimming pools and large baths (like a bath house, or possibly super rich guy bath tub, again you need to conceivably swim there), even though I would argue that that goes against the flavor, and if I was running a serious campaign I'd disallow it, but the idea is just too funny not to allow and let's be real here, I wouldn't run a super serious game because that sounds stressful af and I have way too much fun dropping gags and inside jokes into my games to stop.
What about a well? Does that constitute an a pond or bigger since almost all of it is underground except for the one location where it can be reached by the surface
i think that proficiency bonus vs spellstat is going to be useful for half-caster or MaD classes which tend to have limited stats like ranger or paladin, but it's definitly a nerf for full spellcasting classes or SAD classes since you will start with 2 uses instead of 3, and will pretty much be 1 use behing until lv 13
I never liked fathomless much tbh. I always though you could fit the same flavor by taking GOO and that gift of the depths invocation. I rather wish they added more invocations to customize you environmental adaptability, i find it so fitting for warlocks
I feel like the teleportation within a mile could be you can choose the body of water you've seen or if you haven't, it will be a random water source within that limit that's large enough to hold all the transporters
I think the reason some subclasses are using proficiency and others use a stat comes down to how fast does wtc wants you to be able to max out this ability. As pointed out, with proper optimization you could get 4 uses of something ability score based at level 1, and then at level 4, you max it out. At that point, you have hit the peak of uses. By shifting to prof. bonus wtc guarantees that the ability will scale more evenly, not just get a bunch of uses and then stop having the skill improve. That also might explain why in this book some things stat ability score based while others changed, if wtc thought it was balanced to have 3-4 uses at level 1 and then hit 5 uses at levels 4/8 then it can be ability score based but if they wanted the ability to slowly rank up, then prof. based.
The thing i liked with devouring maw that it allowed me as well to cast hunger of hadar on top of it almost entirely locking several enemies in their place dealing massive amount after both effects are active.. Kinda bummed out by the change.
I think class features that require concentration shouldn't stop you from casting a concentration spell. But I guess that would remove the whole point of the wording on that ability as it says it uses concentration but it can't be broken with damage or whatever. Kinda lame.
My thoughts... Tentacles of the Deep: This feels like a mechanical flop to me, not only did you loose damage choice, but you also have to use your action in order to use it (a problem I had with the UA too) which forces you to move it on your bonus action every turn if you want to get full use out of it and still have your action free to do other things. Gift of the Sea: Useful and thematic, but You lose out on an epic roleplay ability that could be extremely useful during an aquatic campaign (Have you not seen Jason Mamoa's Aquaman, because that's what this ability makes you) Oceanic Soul: I would argue that this ability was better in the UA since, instead of hard capping it, they made it so that your swim speed could base it off your walking speed, and there are a plethora of ways to manipulate that in the current standing of the game. And while the "any creature is also fully submerged can understand you" is nice, it stipulates that you both have to be in order to work where as before you could be sitting on a boat and talking to the school of dolphins that were passing by. Guardian Coil: I can understand why they nerfed it, but a d8 isn't going to protect you in any meaningful way at later levels. Grasping Tentacles: Your entire 10th level ability is equal to an eldritch invocation you would be getting at this level anyways. This ability is so lame that it makes me sad at how lazy it is, especially when comparing it to what you got in the UA. Fathomless Plunge: What Ted said. Final thoughts: This subclass is a complete shit show compared to what it was in the UA, the only interesting thing you get from the official version is the Grasping Tentacles ability at 10th level, and like I said, that's no better than a high level invocation. So as far as my table goes, anyone who wants to play this will be using the UA version and I'll just make Grasping Tentacles a 15th level invocation.
I think if you're gonna make it 1 mile it should be unlimited or have multiple uses, otherwise just make it closer to the 100 mile teleport we had or get rid of the distance entirely and keep the body of water limitation (maybe that you've seen within the last x amount of time if that's too powerful?)
I think it makes sense that your patron, who is a deep underwater being, can only teleport you to places near water. It would be really nonsensical for them to bring you to a land locked city with no big water sources around.
I totally feel that starting rant on the expanded spell list versus always available added spells for the Warlock. Playing a Celestial Pact Warlock right now, and taking the spells I want from it to be thematic has been extremely limiting to my general potency/flexibility in combat (as well as utility outside combat). I mean, I kinda wanted to focus on Eldritch Blast and healing anyway, but for a while there I had to provoke opportunity attacks on purpose since my only "offensive" slot spell was Hellish Rebuke (flavored as a bit of divine retribution, cause I'm not going to let Warlock's unambiguously named spells keep me down, too ...also because there's already a Cleric in the party), so I could have cut out the middle man and skipped a heal if I wasn't bogged down with Cure Wounds, Protection from Evil and Good, and Lesser Restoration in situations I don't need them. There's a mechanical element to why the divine full casters use prepared lists instead of learning spells. The other problem about expanding the spell list over granting additional always known Pact Spells is that it excludes the option of including thematic choices from those already available on the Warlock spell list for that design, which in turn also limited what was on the Warlock spell list.
@@rothgartheviking858 if that lvl 10 ability doesnt move you, then what about at lvl 6 you get resistance to a damage type and u can fly! i know Aarakokra exist but there stats are horrible anyway and the Dms will almost always ban them, but a flying speed+hover and resistance is really good! and if that doesnt move you! then what about spells versatility ! man Genie warlock has alooot of spells to chose from look at there expanded spell list its amazing! and u can do alot with ur vessel too! in short : u can infiltrate with it and u can kinda teleport with it too :D u can take the ring vessel and get inside it with ur party then make your rogue wear it! when the rogue infiltrates and get inside those savage mountain orcs fort! you can just appear!!!! with all your party with you! isnt that amazing? think about it for a moment and you will see what i mean! its awesome
I think something you may be missing with Fathomless Plunge is that at 14th level it’s not that difficult for a wizard in your party to create a small body of water with a few specific spells or magic items. I don’t think the ability is very good by itself, but crafty players could use it to get free teleports every short rest.
The problem with that is that you are relying on your Wizard to make your CAPSTONE ability useful. Imagine your players having to build a pond outside of every dungeon just to make your ability feel useful. Almost no other subclass in the game is that reliant on something extremely situational.
The one benefit of fathomless plunge is that you can use it no matter how long it's been. The UA version would have the same problem as the official version in that if you're in a landlocked area, it's doubtful you've seen a significant body of water in the last 24 hours. I agree that it's a little weak, but the UA version didn't really make much sense. Chances are, any body of water you've seen in the past 24 hours would be well within 100 miles. I would keep it as being limited to a body of water, though I would increase the range to about 5 miles. As it is, it's clear this subclass is meant for a water based campaign where you would likely almost ALWAYS be with a mile of water.
6th lol.... but see that’s what I’m saying, balance in this game is off. Warlocks have two spell slots for a long time. I think they should have a very large spells known.
i think warlocks absolutely need more spell slots tbh and possibly more spells known. how can you be anything other than an hexblade if you can do your thing like 2 times a day at most?
@@whyteshadow57 well still, a short rest is an hour which is not always available. And warlock is a cool idea and is very different from sorcerer or wizard
@@whyteshadow57 Sometimes the DM only allows long rest to long rest, which is common in AL play. When you can't squeak in 2-3 short rests per adventuring day, the Warlock tends to struggle keeping up with other casters, which is one of the primary reasons for Hexblade to be so popular.
Warlocks having to have 2 spell slots for 10 levels is terrible. Warlocks do need a bit of a rework in how they go about things as most people just do not play the game WotC originally intended.
I later the maw with black tentacles and have my dm fits. Two different saves or checks to break restrained was so op and hilarious! He's pleased by the change but im a little miffed. I mean I get it but damn that hurt. Also the new level 14 ability is b.s. for all the reasons you mentioned. The damage wasn't even that big a deal. About the same as fireball but only 5 npcs. The good part was mocking them prone b4 your melee characters went to work on them.
My thoughts on Ability Modifier (AM) vs Proficiency Bonus (PB) times per long rest: How often you can do something is not inherently linked to how well you can do something. I might be able to chuck a bunch of heavy rocks in a relatively short amount of time (high Strength), but that doesn't mean that I can chuck the rock in a way that reliably hits a target (PB). I've seen a lot of arguments that it makes the character feel like their ability is progressively getting stronger. This baffles me because _PB already does this._ It affects your attack rolls and your saving throw DCs, as well as ability checks. PB has always been a mechanic that progressively makes things better over time; that logic should not be applied to lock you out of using your cool ability that much more often, because the game is already built to make you feel like you're getting more powerful over time. I've seen a lot of arguments that it's unfair for players who roll low scores or don't powerbuild. This is _entirely_ a table-by-table issue, and should be adjudicated by the DM or handled with group discussion. The DM should help a player build a character in a way that is going to feel satisfying to play, and that includes suggesting what stat increases to put where. By the same token, I fully believe that the game should reward you for investing in a character. A good wizard is smart enough to wield the most potent of arcane magic, so a good wizard character should be encouraged to attain a high Intelligence score. There's no reason that a rogue should be able to dip one level into wizard and automatically get as many uses of a wizard feature as a wizard who had dedicated his life to the class, _unless_ the rogue also takes the initiative (not a pun) to attain a high Intelligence. I'm largely against multiclassing in general, but that is a personal preference, so I try to remove it from my reasoning. Finally, anyone complaining about MAD (Multiple Ability score Dependency) does not understand that that is an _intentional balancing mechanic._ The barbarian class would be even more powerful than it is already is it weren't already intentionally built to be MAD; that's why its capstone rewards you with ability score increases! It's a fitting reward for sticking with MAD through 20 levels! Using PB to "ease" MAD is completely missing the point. I know that I'm apparently in the minority here, but I wanted to put into words why the shift from AM to PB bugs me so freaking much. There's nothing I, alone, can do to change the course 5e seems to be on (outside of homebrew and DM adjudication), but maybe now anyone who is vehemently *for* PB over AM can understand why there is some resistance in the playerbase. To anyone who made it this far: Thank you for your time.
As someone who got interested in the UA and found a game to play it with, I can confidently say: Wizards, please get the guy who made the original fairy barbarian and jojo monk back as the lead designer. Yeah sure, abilities were broken, but at the very least they were FUN. Dayum I hate all the nerfs... Lurker was already a rather weak subclass (Hexblade? Clestial healing?) with situational abilities, they didn't need to nerf it harder.
This is one of those subclasses you have to think about the campaign before you pick it, similar to a lesser degree the storm sorcerer...like is the campaign on the water? Pirates? Then yeah this is amazing and always love abilities. Land locked dessert? Under dark? Maybe pick something else. It’s not a bad thing but also not a great thing either
A pond would be a standing body of water that is qualifiable as a wetland (is standing for at least 2 weeks). Most of the time, you can find those. Somewhere. Anywhere, other than a Desert. If you're not in a Desert you can probably find a stream with a standing pool somewhere. If you're in any lush ecosystem you can teleport a mile as a get out of jail free card, which is invalueable. You can't counter it, and the Biggest limitation on it is that your patron Literally has no influence over the majority of a Desert unless you happen to know there's an oasis nearby. Plus, on the Ocean or even just a small Sea/large Lake you have a omnidirectional mile teleport.
Is a frozen pond a pond? Is a stream that pools a little to create a pool of water but does continue flowing a pond? Is a pond that's mostly dried up with a muddy bottom a pond?
@@RokuroCarisu "Squirming, ebony tentacles fill a 20-foot square on ground that you can see within range." First sentence of the spell. Always read the full spell before you think you know it.
I think the initial reason for expanded pact list spells not being known was that the other examples are all prepared casters. The recent forays with sorcerer and ranger are obviously a step in the right direction for known casters - even certain bards??
TL/DR: Rolling stats sometimes was very unfair when you didnt want to choose a specific race, so a player could have +2 on their main stat while another one had +4, now that disparity closes and I honestly dont know why Wizards is implementing the per proficiency mod for so few classes. I find it really weird that they switch it up now without balancing the old classes. I think it's a neat idea to balance the characters in a party (i've had it happen multiple times that some character started with 18-20 on their main stat and another struggled with getting a 16, because they didnt want to choose a race with their main stat as the main increase. (Both stats rolled) Now that Changes a bit due to the Ancestry shenanigans, so I find it even weirder that Wizards choose to try out this system apparently. Could they not have done something like this in a UA?
God, this is why I love my life right now, my girlfriend just got the special edition version of Toshas, and I know the second she puts it down, I’m picking it right up.
You already get teleportation circle as a warlock now, the old capstone doesn't seem "exploitable" in comparison. Doesn't seem like the change gained them anything.
