Sound demo for Magnepan UBS subwoofer ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KQ6iD3CFtqg.html Axpona 2023, come see me in room 472 to audition Jay's new Typhon speaker with the Galion TS120SE. Forum feedback from people who were there that night : www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=65602
Thank you Thomas for putting this event together. It was great! I'm so sorry about your mic issues. Still feeling bad for being responsible of them. I agree with Loïc: Despite the great performance of the subwoofer, bass was airy and lacked a bit of authority. They should work on this still. Thank you for your videos. They are awesome.
Nah, don't worry about it. Regarding the authority, it could be because of the Vidar 2. They might get better control if they used a class D high-power amp or a better amp. I would love to try it on the Galion TS120.
@@ThomasAndStereo Nice! I recall their preamp to be a schiit. I had one freya plus. It had real bass only while using tubes. Looking forward to hearing the gallion
I was at Axpona for the demo. Simply stunning. I do not like subs but this was one I could live with! Super tight. No room bloat. HUGE bass when called for. Seamless blend with the martin logans (with the bass drivers removed). Still curious why they kept saying they were for dipole speakers because I'd love to try them with my existing box/cone speakers. Best subs at the show.
I had the opportunity during AXPONA 2022 to hear virtually the same type of demonstration in unfortunately a hotel room. Wendell played only two or three tracks, and of course admitted at the end the parlor trick of only playing the subwoofers. The subwoofers were interesting to hear for the very limited time and tracks offered. However, never heard the combination of the subwoofer and the LRS panels that were also in the room, so could never ascertain what synergy could potentially be gained. If this subwoofer was primarily designed to integrate with only panel speakers, it may or may not be a hit for Magnepan, again because of the abbreviated and incomplete presentations. Maybe the UBS would pair with other non panel speakers? Many questions unanswered.
spot on, i am confused too, why showing a system that show all the extra frequencies beyond bass and not show an example of integration. For me UBS is not a sub if we follow the dictionary definition.
That's an interesting question. AFAIK, no one has tried to mate them with dynamic speakers. If you did, you'd get a transition from omni to cardioid to figure 8. It could potentially offer some of the reduced excitation of room modes that makes dipole woofers so good, but OTOH it's always best if you can avoid changing polar pattern. Interesting experiment!
As admitting I have not heard the new subs yet but have owned many Magnepans, I have many questions with allowing a sub to play too up high in frequency. How will it interfere with the main speakers? How will it negatively affect the soundstage or add standing waves in the room as its frequency goes up into the main speaker frequency? The new UBS sub will obviously be providing sound waves that are out of time with the main speakers as they produce many of the same frequencies as the main speakers. Is this just a marketing ploy since it is generally accepted that one doesn't want the same frequencies coming from different areas for the best sound staging? I am sure there are more questions and hopefully some good answers but these questions do come to mind in this moment.
They'll have a crossover on them, so they won't be playing all the way up. The thing is, most subwooders can't get beyond 200 Hz or so. Thin panels need support higher up. These were originally designed for Magnepan's forthcoming spouse-friendly speaker, which has 12" wide panels, so they had to be designed with wide bandwidth. But the actual crossover point is going to depend on the speakers they mate with. These will work nicely with the 3.7i. The 20.7 and 30.7 probably don't need them, and they may be too expensive for the smaller models (less costly woofers are on their way).
@@Josh442 thanks Josh. I will be very interested to hear how the final product turns out for sure. Just had so many questions since this is not the standard that most use at the moment.
@@richh650 Absolutely! It's a novel approach. Even Magnepan isn't quite sure at this point how they'll be used. For the conventional panels, they seem to make most sense for use to bolster the midbass of the 3.7. They're on the pricey side for the smaller Maggies (more economical versions are on the way), and the 20.7 and 30.7 don't need them in most cases.
I'm a self confessed Magnepan fan boy and I'm super excited about this product. I was thrilled that you did a new video about this as I'm hungry for new info. Unfortunately, nothing (new) to see here. You must have picked your focus group by addresses that included "Under a rock" as a place of residence. Wendell has been travelling the country now for months, pulling this little trick on listeners. The fact that not even one person in the room has seen any of the videos on line makes me question their knowledge of the existence of Magnepan. ( maybe a little salty with the last comment ). I don't need Wendell to reveal any technical secrets nor the expected price but the two things I'd like to know now is firstly, how will these units be incorporated into a stereo? Will I need an external crossover box or an extra stereo power amp? Or is this all incorporated in that mysterious breakout box that no one seems to want to talk about? Will this pull REL's little trick for connection? In other words, am I waiting for something that I wont be able to incorporate into my system? Some of us already have our "end game" amplifiers. No matter how good these woofers are, I can't/won't replace my Luxman. This brings me to my second burning question, when? I don't expect day/month/year, that would be silly as even they probably, at this stage, don't know. What I think they can tell us is if this is months away or years away from release. If it's months away, I'll wait. If it's a couple of years or more away, I'll get a pair of little RELs (like I was about to do when I first heard about their new project) get my use out of them until this Maggie system becomes available and wear the cost of selling the RELs. Adding some extra bass to my stereo system is the last thing I need to do after years of putting it together. Being stuck in Limbo like this is infuriating. I'm sure you would also like to know these things or you know but are banned from saying. Maybe you could use your connections to the wise heads at Magnepan, and tell them that their secrecy in this is not doing them any favours with their customer base. Good luck with that.
I gave similar feedback too, we need a bit more info. People were asking the same questions at the event and hopefully, we will get more info. Wendell did answer some of the questions, for example, I think there are 16 woofers in dipole configuration and so forth but don't quote me on it as I was not paying attention since I was too busy filming. I would guess the project is at the final stage as they are inviting the press to come to audition them at Axpona.
@@ThomasAndStereo Thanks Thomas, I know that you'll get us the info as soon as you can. It's not that I'm impatient but there's a lot of great gear out there that I cannot incorporate into my system and it would be nice to know where I stand with these woofers. I'm holding the last piece of a puzzle that I've been solving for a long time and now I'm frozen in my tracks. Arghhh!!!! I have expensive decisions to make. Apart from the subs, I was planning to upgrade my 1.7s to 3.7i's next year. First world problems but I'm oh so close to the finish line. Thanks for your great work. This is the time you should be working on a power amp to drive these things. I'll be your first customer.
I'd say the product is at the late stages of production engineering -- I'm talking issues like how do you keep the gleaming magnets from showing through the grille cloth, that kind of thing. But even when the design has been finalized, it will take some time to get production ramped up. I know that's vague, but it's all I know. I can tell you that whatever happens, you'll be able to keep your amp. As far as I know, there still hasn't been a final decision on whether it will need a second amp or have a plate amp. The main problem is that they were designed to be as compact as possible, so there isn't much room for a plate amp. AFAIK, still TBD.
@@Josh442 I think you're right about the time frame. I'll be going ahead with a pair of REL 's. Even if it's released relatively soon, the waiting period for actually getting one will be quite long. Not too worried about aesthetics. More worried about integration methods.
@@wetcat833 I think that's a good, safe choice. They can integrate well if proper attention is paid to setup. Another thing you might consider is the GR Research H-frame dipoles. They're big, but they're apparently very good.
Not at all, they were able to identified the soundstage was not as deep, a bit dry, imaging was not precise and so forth, so they knew something was 'wrong'
I listen to the demo at the Toronto Audio Fest. I really don't see the point of having a woofer going so high as it makes the integration with the mains more challenging. Definitely is fast, not necessary punchy. I sense Magnepan is having some doubts on how to enter the market as it needs an extra amp + DSP.
Agree 100% exactly my point too, technically it is not a subwoofer. According to Webster a subwoofer is a loudspeaker responsive only to the lowest acoustic frequencies
It won't be run that high in practice -- there will be a crossover on it as with any woofer. This was designed for use with their forthcoming spouse-friendly speaker with a panel only 12" wide, so it has to play higher than an ordinary woofer would. But in fact, the wide bandwidth has other advantages.
Recent experience has taught me one thing the voice dictation these devices is pretty good I'm not typing any of my comments anymore but I'll tell you this listening to this video and what everyone had to say is made me really curious about hearing one of those things I will go check out the price on those magnepan subs and possibly buy one
Thanks for another interesting video Thomas! Have Magnepan shared any technical details about the construction? I.e. woofer sizes, woofer material, are they servo driven, etc? Also, have they mentioned how low the subwoofer can go down to? As much as I appreciate DSP (which I use at home) there are limits to what can be achieved given small baffle size they seem to be using. I’m curious how that translates to sub’s low bass performance (20-40Hz).
Extension is going to depend on the room (it always does), but these are woofers rather than subwoofers. They're designed to be compact and unobtrusive. The challenge was to make a dipole woofer that is small but has high bandwidth and that mates well with planar panels. A conventional subwoofer would do well for the bottom octave, because it's below the modal range in most rooms so dipole bass loses its main advantage.
Your video, as always, was great. I too have heard these subs, with Magnepan LRS+, and it sounds awesome. I do, however, have an issue. This has been displayed now for a number of years and there has been ZERO information on price, availability, time till introduction. and more. The question begs to be asked; Will it ever be a commercial reality and if so when and how much? DSP? Amplifier requirements? I am a huge Magnepan fan. I've owned 5 different pair over time and currently use and love my 3.7i's. I feel it is time to either.....or get off.....!
I hear you. I know they are at the stage where they are inviting the press to go listen at Axpona so that should mean they are at the final stage. Afterall, unless you product is ready, you don't invite the press.
@@ThomasAndStereo Although I do not think I am a good potential buyer I hope so because their credibility, I feel, will be compromised if they do not. I heard them last year at APOXNA and I was impressed. Unfortunately, I will not be there this year as I have Myrtle Beach golf trip. I honestly would rather go to APOXNA!
Most curious about the UBS system. Wanting to know more about their DSP implementation. I own the 3.7i Maggies and yes they do bass, but not the sub extension that so many artists utilize these days. Until the day comes that these are in production I have a pair of Tekton 4-10 subs. Best money I’ve ever spent in hi-end audio. Two arrays of 4 10” subs are very quick and DO keep up with the 3.7i panels.
It seems like thiers just no getting around the surface area that would be required of a dipole sub. The speed ability of a dipole like an LRS .... no doubt that's why its triangle shaped . I'm in the US so I want the LRS+ but do have concerns obviously about its low end output. Maybe an isobaric single chamber dipole configuration would work.
Thomas, regarding the material being played at this demonstration was it only stabs and hits, did they play any complete pieces of music, pop, classical, jazz etc etc. Please could you confirm on that subject, thanks.
They played the Japanese drum, one classical and then one song with vocal from Diana K. When they powered up the ML, they played the classical music piece.
I cant find a price on the internet. Ir a target release date. I ve owned maggies in the past. With final subs 8inch. Very close but not perfect. If these deliver im getting me a set lrs+ and the ubs
What's all that talk about faster or slower subwoofers? I mean, frequency is the reciprocate of time. And if e.g. a bass guitar is faster, it ain't olayin that deep anymore. I used to have electrostatic LS myself. And some day I watched out to build me a sub to join thembelow 120 Hz. Sure the woofers had a high(er) sensitivity, but can there be faster or slower subwoofers? On more or less precise woofers I might agree with.
Well it is not like the song is playing faster, it is the sensation the sub is fast. Meaning the woofer start and stop instantaneously so the decay is shorter with the bass. Call it whatever you want, call it fast, hamburger or cheeseburger, it does not matter, as long as everyone at the show had the same 'language' and understood each other.
Where did you get this jury? Who isn't aware by now of this Magnepan parlour trick? Is it possible that a room full of audiophiles can't detect that the music has no hf content? 🎵🤔🎵 Intrigued nonetheless. With DSP, so many drivers and amps the UBS won't be as affordable as the LRS. Thanks guys!
I post an invite on my community page. Many of them were not aware, there were maybe 1 or 2 who told me they were aware but they told me, despite being aware, they were still impressed.
I think this "excitement" over the UBS is just overblown. It is mainly a full range speaker placed on the side wall to re-enforced bass and complemented or compensated by mid/treble driver located to provide a more defined/accurate soundstage?
These are real world reactions. It is overblown only if it does not meet your expectations, however, what are the expectations for these subwoofers? Most full-range speakers are not dipole, and until someone hears what a dipole speaker can do, it is hard to tell if it is overblown or not. Sure, you might be disappointed with them when you hear them but I would say it all depends on your expectation.
They're designed to be placed along a sidewall. A corner would not be good, dipoles like to be out in the room some. Deep -- they're woofers rather than subwoofers. If you want flat to 20 Hz, you want a conventional sealed sub (or maybe the big H-frame dipoles from GR Research -- but man, those are big!).
Regarding using subs at home with that single driver speaker. Use passive subs that the cone will go higher up the spectrum and then use an external active variable crossover that will allow you crossover at the 500 hz point between two amps and bingo you have won the jackpot.
Thomas ... why do you call this a subwoofer? Magnepan doesn't call them subs but simply ultra-wideband bass systems. When you call them subs, you give the impression to people that their bass is comparable to regular subwoofers, able to play at 30Hz and below at high SPLs. Do you know how low the UBS go? Great videos. BTW!
I have Magnepan 1.7i’s with Anthem STR integrated using ARC room correction. I’ve tried Rel t7X and now looking at RSL speedwoofer 10s mk2, rythmik f12 SE, and some open baffle subs made by GR research. My fear with the Maggie subs is that they are fast enough to keep up with the 1.7is but will lack the extension, dynamics, and impact of a traditional sub. I don’t mean to imply home theater levels of foundation shaking bass but at least some impact which open baffle seems to struggle with.
I hear you, the only way to really know is to test it at my home with my amps. The extension might be affected by the Vidar 2 at the show. Also, who knows, the final version might be tweaked more for extension since they don't need it to go as high up as they did at the demo.
They have lots of impact, but they aren't going to be flat to 20 Hz -- they're woofers rather than subwoofers. And they won't give you the gut thump of a dynamic. What they are is more natural sounding than a sealed sub. I hear the GR Research H-frames are excellent, by the way. They don't sound quite as good as the UBS, but they'll go deeper and may be suited to a larger room -- you can always stack them. The same rule applies, though -- dipole bass will be more natural, while a sealed sub will have more impact. One compromise is a swarm of four properly-placed sealed subs -- that can sound as natural as a pair of dipoles. But it starts to get costly . . .
8:38 "Getting use to it" - this is exactly what happens when people say their speakers are breaking it. There is no break-in heard. It's all in the mind.
I agree 100% and this also applies to electronics in most cases! Whenever I mention this in forums people say I'm crazy! It's people's hearing adjusting to new sounds, not the equipment!
In this case, it was not about break in, just the presentation is so different than what he expected. It is like if you are used to normal speakers and suddenly listen to Omnidirectional speakers, it takes time to get used to.
Totally agree! break in is a total myth. Manufactures tell people they need to play their speakers X amount of hours (eg 100) and by then the exchange policy expires and the owner is Use to them anyway. It's such a sleazy sales tactic. I've read of ABX testing of new out of the box speakers vs ones that have been played over 1,000 hours and nobody was able to tell the difference.
@@summerforever6736 I don't disagree that it could loosen up over time ( a very short time, like an hour or so), but I 100% disagree it makes any difference in SQ
Electronics break in is a myth, but speaker break in isn't. The compliance of a speaker increases when it's first used, so bass response improves during the break-in period. This is true of both planars and dynamics. In the planar, the thermal cycling affects the mylar film and the low frequency extension of a Maggie will improve by about 5 Hz.
Why would they set the subwoofer so high? Won't it be difficult to integrate? And what the group heard was more of woofers maybe not subwoofers, kind of like most of RELs (sub)woofers which mostly lack in the sub category.
@@ThomasAndStereo still confused... just because they can, (some subs go up past 150 too), there still is the question of integration past a low point. And then there is the question of was this demo going past 30 or even 50 Hz to begin with as the chest thumping sounds at 50-60 Hz might have all that were heard in this demo, bringing keeping this bass driver in the solely in the woofer but not the sub woofers category like the majority of RELs. I guess I will have to get more information when available.
Well its a little fun, they found out that you can only make and open baffle linesource planar to work with a linearray open baffle dynamic woofer. Thats old news in the diy world.
@@ThomasAndStereo well I do I am working on a 2 meter magnostatic tweeter/midrange planar now crossed over to 9 8'' SB Acoustics fullrange. And magnepan are a planar linesource .
Any random japanese drum or chinese drum track should do. If you can find this www.discogs.com/release/7085659-Various-Usher-The-Diamond-Revolution- Track 2 is good to test speed, track one is not bad.
Create the Galion 2/3/4 way Active Crossover. Hifi active subs are a hack/botch due to the fact that the sub is being crossed but the main listening monitors are not. Sorry everyone but both need to be crossed over for it to work correctly.
Thanks for the video, but i just have a few observations, first using the term "subwoofer" for a speakers that reproduce more than bass frequencies is not a subwoofer. So the the term ultra wide band subwoofer is an oxymoron. Thats why the audience was surprised because they are just expecting sub frequencies from a "subwoofer". If the speakers reproduced other frequencies then call it a speaker system. I found the session kind of gimmicky. If you are going to sell this as a "subwoofer" he should have shown them integrated with the speakers. What would be the point of a sub that can reproduced above 500k or whatever if you don't show the audience a proper example on how would this integrate in a normal system. Sounds to me that UBS would be suited for speaker with actually no bass if you are bragging on how well it reproduced higher frequencies. Maybe i am missing something, and but if you just want to show how fast it is, why it was not shown with actual speakers playing. Why everybody was so surprised, because it is a speaker not a sub. . just my two cents.
Well, it is designed as a woofer -- it won't be used wideband in practice. They just wanted to show off the fact that the woofer is so fast. Where the wide bandwidth is important is in mating with narrow planar panels.
Thomas, it would be very very interesting to see some sound engineers being put to this test. Sound engineers are not like joe public. You should try it, call up some studios. You might have to get a stack of beers to go with the food. 🐔🐄 🐑🍔🍺🍺🍺
From the moment a soundwave hits the microphone diaphragm it has to then go down a very large chain of events until it hits the end users ear drum. If you have a clarinet for example being played right in front of you the chain of events are as small as it gets. Hifi will never sound convincingly real due to the chain of events from beginning to end. We have a long long way to go for 100% audio playback perfection. The industry from the recording studio to the hifi shop would have to be re-written.
@@ThomasAndStereo Rel Carbon Specials have 4" excursion (2" front, 2" back) S812 on steroids, 10-15 percent better. Uses same amp and woofer thats in the No 31
I don't get these kind of demo's or reviews, we hear nothing and hear only a discussion or somebody is telling what we also could have read in a magazine. I want live demo's and talking about what you've heard in the song from the different dynamics and low, mid and high parts etc. And what you supposed to hear perhaps. Is it a secret to demo stuff? Then don't bother trying to sell it.
@@ThomasAndStereo I am serious. Hence I may be able to see their usefulness for panel speakers which lack slam and weight in the upper bass but not for anything else, not even for most standmounts with the possible exception of LS3/5A sized sealed monitors. Certainly not for sub bass duty. In the panel case, I expect the panels would need to be high passed to about the midrange frequencies to be able to blend smoothly.
@@razisn Sure, they were designed to mate with planar dipoles. They aren't intended to replace your RELs! Though dipole bass will sound more natural with any speaker, since it excites fewer room modes.
Spent 25 minutes listening to this video and heard almost nothing about what the subs are like when properly implemented. Neat trick about playing the subs full range but honestly, who cares? I get that it speaks to their technical quickness and resolution, but why go through this whole exercise at this length, I really wanted to hear about the performance of the subwoofers properly implemented in a system, not the magic trick to fool people
