The Sparrows take away Margaery for protecting her brother and lying in front of the seven... S05E06 Kill The Boy. Disclaimer I do not own any footage or audio. All rights go HBO (Home Box Office)
Break the ice that's why they're there. As it's been pointed out they're only appearing now because without tywin or Joffrey who'd probably brutally slaughter them in their sleep, they can basically do whatever they want. Tommen is weak and pliant so he'd probably consider it rude not to admit them and cersei is busy and occupied. In the books they appear as far back as clash of kings since the war becomes so bad that the people start using religion to preach against it and arya and brienne start wandering around and seeing it. Like brienne when she goes looking for Sansa sees a dwarf minister preaching about the seven.
Tommen was a weak little boy who had no idea of what it took to be a king...... Funny how the sparrows waited for both Joffrey and Tywin to die before making their appearance...
he rode on the coat tails of Tywin. That is the only reason why something like this didn't happen earlier. No one else in that god damn family had any sense besides Tyrion
@@cs-zr9xy joffrey was a sick fuck. even without tywin, the high septon would NOT have popped out if joffrey was still alive he woulda had ilyn pane and a buncha other guards chopping up their body parts
The logic in that claim. OF COURSE Oliver would know Loras had a birthmark. Squires help dress them in the morning? That claim is absolute bullshit. To hell with these logistics.
I agree but squires didn't go below the underclothes. Remember in those days many people were almost-never-nudes. OFTEN PEOPLE EVEN BATHED in their "smallclothes" so no a squire would not have seen the area it is located.
+James Repstock "often" doesn't mean never. "oh yeah that time I fell from my horse and my clothes tore and you saw my ass." you can tell a million stories of someone that was around you almost every day for years accidently walking in on you naked
Doing so was very, very, very rare in the medieval world. Keep in mind often WIVES didn't even see a man fully nude- simply because people went to bed with smallclothes on and even had sex in them. It would be taboo to see another man naked- shameful even just for that part.
This scene is good and stuff, but I'm still annoyed with how they totally fucked over Loras' storyline and his personality... In the book, he wasn't just banging Renly for the fun of it. They were truly in love, and when Renly died Loras took an oath of celibacy, saying that "Once the sun sets, no candle can replace it". He then goes off to fight the remaining Stannis supporters on Dragonstone, and gets injured. But in the show, they completely revolve his story around the fact that he's gay, and they make him bang every other gay guy he sees as if he can't help it, and then they arrest him for being gay, and it's all about being gay, while in the book being gay wasn't even that much of a sin to the Sparrows. It's the total destruction of a good character.
You should be used to D&D destroying characters by now. At this point, the show is just fanfiction for the novels. Though I still enjoy the show for what it is.
jontyriondaenerys according to the writers him and renly were in a relationship and probably the most stable. When loras is with olyvar to him it means nothing because he's only drowning his sorrows. He's never going to love again so he's trying to make himself feel better. Him and olyvar is kinda along the lines of you having a really bad breakup and you start eating ice cream and drinking bourbon or you get a really hard test at school and start smoking to relieve the stress. He was in love with renly just he did olyvar for the fun of it and now the faith is using it against him. Remember he's going through what's pretty much a kangaroo court so olyvar could say something along the lines of "I got violated by him!" without any proof or witness and if he swears it by the guards to them it's true. Remember that they arrested loras with no evidence, only on a rumor, since the books gave so little evidence that GRRM himself had to say they were dating, which would be the same thing as the chief of police arresting the quiet kid at school on a murder charge without any proof because the entire class thinks he did it when really he could just be a shy kid who wears black. Yes loras was gay but nobody really knew about it per say.
But it is interesting thematically , it goes to shows that for all of his shortcomings Jeoffrey still had some good sides and that even if Tommen is a good person it doesn't mean he is fit to be a king .
@@PacifyKy joffery would of had the sparrows string up and displayed and then announced anyone not praying to him would face the same and the sept is now the Sept of Joffery
I hate to say it but Tywin should have lived to teach Tommen to be tougher. He is the only one, besides maybe Tyrion, that would be honest with him and give him some backbone. Tommen could have been a descent king with them around since he is already very kind.
Yeah I think he is too sweet sometimes, like not standing up to Cersei when he wanted Margaery and Loras out of prison. He needed to put her in her place. He doesn't know when he is being manipulated. I assume "rich hag" means Margaery haha. However, I think it would be good for Tommen to have Margaery teaching him what she knows about politics because she is very good at it. She also gives him confidence which would have helped along with Tywin's lessons on politics and being tougher.
+Leonardo Marques Yeah, Kevan definitely stood up to Cersei at the beginning of the season. Hopefully he will start mentoring Tommen but I'm not sure if the writers will repeat that since they already had Tywin do that.
+GameOfThrones Expert I bet you a cookie that the very next scene of Margaery she will already be in the Red Keep again. In the show her sin is bad but no one can really say THAT BAD. Plus the people love the Tyrells. In the books this didn't happen and she'll be forgiven- considering a Tyrell army is outside the city. She and Cersei may even pretend to be cordial, but both know their enemies. Cersei will be increasingly erratic and eventually someone will end her (not before she has Olenna killed).
+GameOfThrones Expert I bet you a cookie that the very next scene of Margaery she will already be in the Red Keep again. In the show her sin is bad but no one can really say THAT BAD. Plus the people love the Tyrells. In the books this didn't happen and she'll be forgiven- considering a Tyrell army is outside the city. She and Cersei may even pretend to be cordial, but both know their enemies. Cersei will be increasingly erratic and eventually someone will end her (not before she has Olenna killed).
I'm sorry but: 1. The Tyrell army combined with Tommen's army could have decimated the Faith for doing this 2. That guy was a squire and therefore it would be perfectly normal for him to know that Loras had a birth mark???
Thousands of begging brothers and sisters (armed)were in kings landing.the king himself raised the faith Militia...they can hold arms, arrest people and punish them.the Tyrell army and the kings guards had to fight in the sept of baelor where margyrey was held hostage
not only this the tyrell's had an army but vanished in season 7 and somehow the entire family including lords loyal to the tyrells were conveniently all in the sept when it was blown up, ridiculous never seen such bad writing just to get rid of a powerful house that would have steam rolled the Lannister's with their vast wealth and huge military might.
Love how the Kingsguard readily grab their swords and advance the moment the sparrows try to seize Queen Margaery. It makes it even more frustrating because Tommen had to actively signal for them to stand down. Had they intervened it would've been very bad news for the sparrows (those wooden sticks would've done f*ck all to full plate armor and they'd have gotten cut down). Margaery really should've just been Queen Regnant, the realm would've been far better off.
One of the times Tommen showed wisdom beyond his years. If they would've butchered every sparrow there it would've become quite a crapshow. Although... Cersei got away with thing on a similar or even larger scale, and no one ended up batting an eyelash. The one GoT common denominator has always been that the one in power owns all.
Yeah but the marriage was unconsummated so technically it was null and void. Olenna should've let her in on her plans and Margaery shoulda smashed Joffrey right on the alter. No one would've suspected a thing
In the books a Tyrell army IS in the surrounding area so... yeah the Sparrows aren't fucking suicidal. Margaery is treated nicely and will be forgiven for her crimes!!
He won't die until the end. He will watch the entire kingdom tear itself apart and will be there to edge Sansa onto the destroyed throne. But Sansa will have learned from him and will betray him so that she can rule alone.
+MEXEROS X I don't think he thought we was going to be king when he was younger and as Cersei hasn't had much influence on him (and his sister) it seems that they grew up very differently to the other Lannisters. Also I think that he feels if he attacked the sparrows the rest of Kings Landing would hate him even more.
4:18 I love this moment It's a perfect example of the price of weakness. Sometimes avoiding conflict makes those who depend on you suffer. It's a lesson I see a lot of leaders don't understand. Sometimes you have to fight (I know tommens only a kid so he gets a pass, but many many adults make the same mistake)
There was 2 Kingsguard, and from what I counted 6 sparrows? With the Queen-Mother, Queen, King, and heir to Highgarden sitting in between them. If swords started swinging odds are the multiple women, and young child would have gotten hurt or possibly killed. The kingsguard may have also lost that fight too. Best choice would have been to wait and return with Red cloaks or Gold cloaks.
@@ethanragbir8311 Nah I'd order the kings guard to grab that old fucker with no hesitation. Threaten him with his life and order him to release her or his head rolls right there and then we then evacuate the building all while my kings guard are holding him hostage then once we're outside the building on horse back depending on how I'm feeling might kill him anyway might let him go either way we're running back to my throne room gathering the citys watch gold cloaks all the kings guard the tyrell army red cloaks as well as whatever lannister men we can find and we're killing every last sparrow in that building. Then the next day I'd pipe out Queen Margaery all whilst thinking about what a boss I was and how I handled that well.
@@ethanragbir8311 If he doesn't release her needless to say he dies and so does cersei and probably olenna and margaery herself maybe loras could survive because he has some fighting skill. Tommen should probably be able to run.
Lizzy Violet this is a kangaroo court. The faith pretty much arrested loras on a rumor the same way the cops could arrest an old man because the neighborhood kids think he's a murderer when really he could just be a hermit or wants to keep his blinds closed. In the system of the faith it's guilty til proven innocent but with the crown it's innocent til proven guilty. Also it's possible that olyvar was under a plea deal; he testifies against loras and the faith won't harass him since if the theory that the high sparrow was only after the position for power has any merit this might be the merit.
A part of me has always wondered why the Tyrells simply didn't have Cersei assassinated shortly after Tywin was killed as she was shown repeatedly to be an obstacle and Kevan was pretty much in charge of the war effort by that point. Cersei was literally the Queen Mother and beyond that held no utility or benefit to the conflict for either side.
Because the showrunners nerfed Tyrells in the series, they don't even have the same army size as they have in the books (show army: around 12k men, book army: 70-80k men). It's evident that they had no clue what to do with the Tyrells after the show passed the books, so they wasted a season and killed them off in the next. It called shitty writing
The simple answer is they believed she no longer mattered. Tommin liked Margery, Cersi knew this and loved Tommin. The greatest mistake Olena made was not realizing how big a fool Cersi was. Its hard to guage if Tywin was more perceptive or just had more face time with his daughter.
I really fucking hate Cersei. Not only did she let her own personal feelings against a person get in the way of what is best for everyone, and not only did she exploit the Tyrell's family morale, but she also exploited her son's feebleness to get what she wanted.
The fifth season belonged to Cersei Lannister. It was coming of age of the hidden monster she really was and the final 3 seasons didn't get anywhere to bring a satisfactory end to her story.
Thats what I thought! That move was so stupid! At least her father had the ability for politics! She is just ambitious but not as smart as she thinks she is!
It’s not fake outrage it’s similar interest if they allow a squire to bring that house down it can happen to them since they allowed it but since she protested it was to protect herself and her family in the future
@@DamionTyrougelol bro cerise was literally behind the whole trial and everything. She said that being facetious, to show the proof of how he knew. She didn’t have similar interest at all. She wanted them locked up
@@DamionTyrouge Bro did you even watch the show? She's the one who caused all this to happen, she knew that Margeary was getting too powerful, to stop Margeary she gave power to the high sparrow. Since Cersei is impulsive and doesn't think about the consequences of her actions, giving power to those fanatics backfired in the end.
@@thedarkerknight2188 a queen has king's ear (and not just an ear). If she plays her cards right, she can be the second most influential person in the kingdom.
@@anaremelam5998 Except kings don't have only one queen, and if he is good king he will never let a woman have power. Women as queens always created problems.
the show is so fucking illogical sometimes its aggravating. if this happened in the books with marg getting arrested for lying and loras arrested (heir in the show, not in books), olenna would have all the power of the reach come to kings landing and demand that they are released or the city will be slaughtered. the power of the reach is so underwhelming in the show it breaks the immersion
@@the2dudes1 It pissed me off too even if Randyll Tarly betrayed them the other bannermen would not and they would still have more than jamie and randyll forces.Tarly would never betray the tyrells too he is loyal like the umbers are loyal to the starks.Oh speaking of that too thats another thing that pissed me off the umbers betraying the starks for the boltons fuck d and d
@@johnnyboogalo4897 Yep the writing is just horrendous once they past the books. D and D truly stopped caring and just wanted to finish the series without caring how illogical and nonsensical the writing became
This shows how important it is to have a well-organized protection plan for the king and for the king‘s family. Only two guards behind him are a bad protection even though we are aware that the high sparrow was not a threat a few moments before. On top of that, we can see a lot of sparrows in this room... never let it happen that people, who don’t seem like they are totally on your side, surround you. At least four kings guards, well-positioned (quarter) and maybe 5-6 Lannister soldiers near of this room would have solved this problematic situation here. Well, their weapons would‘ve been a bit ineffective (small room, less space to wield with a sword), but their high-end training would‘ve been appropriate enough for those bald people armed with a club.
Those two armoured guards with swords could have killed every monk with a cudgel in that room and carved a path to the nearest exit for the king and queen. Tommen is a fraidy cat and calls them off.
+Ainsley McArthur I BET THAT PRESENT THAT BAELISH GAVE OLEENA (THE HANDSOME YOUNG MAN) GOT CERSEI THROWN IN THE SHITTER..LOLOL VENGEANCE IS BITTER SWEET ..I HOPE HER ACCOMMODATIONS ARE EXCITABLE AS WELL ..( : o)
The whole Margery arresting thing doesn't really make sense, she was arrested for lying to protect her brother, she never committed any crimes. Cersei committed incest w/ her cousin and jaime ( but they don't know that) and all she had to do was walk naked and boom she's free but Margery has to stand trial for a crime she didn't even commit? wtf? why doesnt she get the chance to walk or another punishment, seems like some bs they came of with to drive the plot.
Garry Murdoch Oh really? I thought Cersei was off the hook forever, even tho I think Margery should be able to be free easier because she didn't commit the crime, also She said " to the best of her knowledge" and they still arrested her, it was to the best of her knowledge, also Olivar said she walked in on them but he could be lying ( even tho we know its true, and if they try to argue the birthmark thing, well she's his sister, she could have seen it whenever so, she should be able to be free easily
Victor Okere ok makes sense, but Margery didn't even sin, she also said to the best of her knowledge, so the guy could be lying ( even tho we know hes not)
It just occured to me. If incriminating evidence was the fact that he had a birthmark on his thigh, Loras could have argued that the squire just learnt of it while he was helping Loras get dressed or put on his armour or something. Isn't that what squires are supposed to do?
A logical and calculated observation, too bad he acted in the opposite manner by lashing out in anger. Bad things happening suck but it’s the way you handle them that matters
It wouldn't have mattered, the High Sparrow was only looking for enough justification to arrest them (according to their own rules) and he believed he had it. The real illogic is how easily he pulled it off, which is explained away by Tommen being weak and gullible. It's clumsily done if you apply fridge logic but in hindsight it's very clear that the writing was already getting sloppy at this point, even while they were still in book territory.
Cersei was so blinded by her spite and rage it made her stupid and extremely short-sighted, if the seven (sparrows) became bold enough to arrest the wife of the king, How could she possibly think that anyone of nobility would be safe ??
All Tommen had to do was yell "kingsguard" and those gold cloaks would have ended that whole circus and it would have given Tommen a badass character moment. But we all know this whole thing was Cersei's grand plan to keep control of the capital.
Ridiculous that a squire knowing the knight they squired for (which literally involves dressing the man) has a birthmark is somehow considered irrefutable evidence that they're having sex, with Loras lunging at him instead of laughing off the absurdity of that level of proof. Then they arrest Margery simply because Olyvar claims she knew about it, which is even less proof than for Loras. It really shows how the show dropped off long before season 8, this is just nonsensical.
tbf it seems the faith were looking for any reason to arrest loras and margery so even if he made that claim i don't think it would've made a difference
@@JimHopper-xk6oqLike yes, but also if Tommen says no, they can't do anything (if they do, all other lords will take revenge immediately and they'd all be dead). Loras' absurd reaction implies he's guilty, solidifying in Tommen's mind that they're following the law and he stays silent. Had they made even a remotely compelling case for why this trial is nonsense, Tommen would've taken their side. Regardless, this just further highlights how stupid it is they just walked into a room with the high sparrow and a bunch of goons with literally no guards of their own. Where's the kingsguard? Where are any Tyrell troops? How could they possibly put themselves in that position, then proceed to not defend themselves in any way and get arrested? Then later, Cersei has the gall to think the High Sparrow would never arrest her despite him arresting the literal queen with virtually no evidence when there is very clearly more evidence against Cersei (which she knows because her cousin who she had sex with is one of his goons). This polotline was horrendous - trying to defend any part of it just raises more questions then you get to the bottom of the hole and realize "oh yeah, the writers just didn't give half a shit and cobbled this together because they wanted to work on Star Wars" and it all starts making sense.
This scene crystallized years ago what a bunch of hacks D&D were and foreshadowed the mediocre last season. In GRR Martin's feudal world and even the real historical feudal world, lords and lady's have retainers with them wherever they go. A rabble of militants can't arrest the queen right under the nose of her lady grandmother. They would get cut down by dozens of bodyguards. Instead in the books the faith arrest her at the Great Sept when Margaery goes to pray and is presumably lightly attended in a surprise attack. But as soon as as her father and his army march on King's Landing they release Margaery to Randyll Tarly's custody because they know full well the Tyrell would sack the city and kill everyone if anything was done to Margaery. The only reason Cersei is forced to march naked through King's Landing on the other hand is because neither her uncle nor her brother come to her aid with the Lannister army. This scene is devoid of logic.
This situation would never happen if Tywin was around. Remember this happened only because the idiot Cersei thought she could use the sparrows to serve her interests, believed she somehow was immune to their religious fanaticism, and believed that the religious fanatics won't have a problem with her - despite the fat that her incestual relationship was a public knowledge at this point (or at least a publically known known rumour).
You can definitely see when the show went too far from the books. The quality drop after season 4 is amounting. Realism was sacrificed for development that was meant to surprise and get the audience talking. It was normal for squires to see those they served naked as much as a handmaiden to the lady they serve. During Louis XIVs reign, the more intimate and personal a subjects role was with Louis, the higher the honour was of that post. Loras was not some entirely impulsive fool whos entire personality revolved around how he was gay. He was a skilled and calculating warrior who wouldn't have acted so transparently.
pretty much this, why would it be weird for a squire to know about a birthmark when it's literally their job to wash, dress and undress whomever they serve? If you had any significant status in medieval society, you had someone to do all the boring things like washing, dressing, shaving, wiping your arse etc for you.
Cersei was so smug about apointing the high sparrow as high septon when he was going after people she didn't like but then it backfired on her so damn hard.
Cersei was an idiot. Considering her own antics, her reputation, the well known rumours about her incest - bringing a bunch of religious fanatics to power was a suidical move. It's like an openly gay jewish prostitute supporting muslim extremists to piss off her catholic neighbour. It may even work, but it's sure as fuck gonna backfire.
Squires see lords naked all the time, for example, in the books Theon slept naked while sharing the room with Wax. They didn't have evidence for a trial, they just needed a reason to imprison them and force a confession.
Not a shock that witch trials and inquisitions had more focus on repentance and less on burden of proof. If Loras kept cool and said it was from when he was changing or bathing who knows?
@@tommenbaratheon3612 yes Tommen sorry but your great grandfather like you was not meant to rule . He ruled because his elder brothers got killed , like you . He tried to please everyone at the detriment of his own interest like you . He was weak willed when confronted with violence or « those who know better » like you . And last but not least he listened primarily to the bad pussy …like you .
No matter, how often I rewatch this scene...I just can't get over how Tommen just sits there and lets them manhandle Margery. With several knights in full armor right behind them 🤯. One decisive order and there would have been a bloodbath among the Sparrows.
"Justice without strength is empty, strength without justice is violence. To be strong to protect yourself and others is your goal." - many wise men, probably
Dean-Charles Chapman, who portrays Tommen Baratheon, portrayed another character(Martyn Lannister for 2 episodes in 2013) who laid with a boy in an early episode. He was killed and then Dean returned to portray Tommen (16 episodes, 2014-2016) . Good thing the Sparrow didn't investigate that.
"Sir, they locked up the queen mother." Joffrey" I want my best men working on the best possible torture in response, public, and find their family members in the city to watch... and bring my mother back."
@@mitjamackenzie1219 it works in every way.... It implies that a true king or a queen shouldn't need to constantly remind people of their kingship.... No circumstances would ever make them so powerless that they need to declare their status....
@@rash123d7 I agree now. When I wrote the comment I was quite new to Game Of Thrones, but for a while now I've changed my mind. Margery isn't a true queen, because her whole strategy isn't to be the leader, but instead to control the leader. If Tommen would have died before Margery she would probably have found another husband and let him have the power and try to control him. That is why Margery isn't a true queen. Her downfall had a lot to do with Tommen because she put herself in a position where she was dependent on Tommen. And the boy was too scared to do anything.
Here's what I'd do if I were Tommen. 1. Before Margaery is led out of the room, command the Kingsguard to make the Sparrows release her. 2. Have the Kingsguard escort the Tyrells and Cersei to the Red Keep. Tell them to return with 3 more Kingsguard and some 300 Goldcloaks. That leaves me alone in the Sept, but I don't think the High Sparrow is willing to harm a boy who has not yet committed any serious sin. Besides, you know, KING. 3. Assure the High Sparrow that I won't prevent him from conducting the trial. After all, I too want to know if my queen is a lying biatch. I'll keep an eye on the Tyrells myself. He can have Olyvar if he wants. 4. Probably sign some conveniently-worded promise to that effect, if the High Sparrow insists (I don't think he will). 5. When the KG are back, ask for the High Sparrow's benediction, then leave. 6. In the Red Keep, tell the Tyrells that sorry, these are some serious accusations I heard, so we're having a trial. Prepare a strong case for the defence. 7. Hold the trial in a place where shit won't get out of my control. Ensure the Tyrells' safety. 8. If the sentence is too harsh, mitigate it, citing some precedent, or custom, or verse in the Seven-Pointed Star re king's mercy, the lack of strain in the quality thereof, divine right of the kings, blah blah blah. The Tyrells will not be happy about this and Cersei won't be hoist with her own petard. But the freakin' Lord of the 7 Kingdoms won't be such a total pushover.
+Isak Källsmyr He's definitely older. And he's not just any teen, he's a prince, brought up in a palace. Remember how different Bran was when put in charge as acting lord of Winterfell?
Lol. It was an illogical mess and it just kept getting worse and worse. What kind of useless king doesn't call his kingaguard next to him to intervene and stop these few inept religous preachers from taking his queen? Why would a birth mark on Lori's thigh be seen as evidence against him having relations with his male squire? His squire would be required to simply help him get dressed, undressed ect everyday. Urgh its painful how bad the show got after season 4
Should have let Joffrey live for this moment. Tywim taught him wisdom but he should have taught him backbone and how to stand his ground. If I were him, I would have slayed all of them. Nobody touching my Magaery like that
What I want is a "What If...?" series based on GoT, and the first episode would be "What if Joffrey was alive when the Sparrows tried to take kings landing?"
I don’t understand Tommen. First they show them as some kind of hidden Napoleon when he speaks with Tywin at Joffrey’s wake, but then he devolves into a passive pansy right after. He had a spark of promise, initially.
Tomen is such a baby why does he just tell his guards to save margery. He such a fool in this episode. If margery was my wife i would have fought until my last breath.
@@SirKolassToo innocent to see his wife and mother get imprisoned and do nothing? Even a 10 years old would had done more than him. Come on, Lyanna Mormont was younger than him and she had more balls than him, and understood war better than what he'd ever could have. His age or "innocence" aren't a excuse. He was a pathetic king, with a pathetic death.
Margaery and Olenna were Iconic the way Margaery didn’t even talk much in this scene but when they took her away she stole the scene and Olenna looking at Cersei cheifs Kiss!! Poor Tyrell family i loved them 😭😭😂
He even said he was his servant so of course he'd know about the birth mark and the fact the king did NOTHING made me so angry . That's his wife he loves and he doesn't care
Interestingly, Loras probably could have got off the hook here by pointing out that his squire would probably have seen him changing. While I get that Loras is a buffoon, I'm more surprised Margaery didn't this out
