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Excellent Video! Excuse me for butting in, I would love your initial thoughts. Have you ever tried - Paneevelyn Swinging Clubsman (should be on google have a look)? It is a great one of a kind guide for revealing an effortless golf swing technique without the headache. Ive heard some interesting things about it and my cooworker at very last got cool success with it.
Yup.. Fortunately, I gave this one up after only 20 years of working on it rather than 30. Lol! I've worked with "best" instructors in the game. I got better when I dumped that and started studying what good players do. That helped more than anything. Obviously, this doesn't apply to every great player but it applies to most. Another great video!
Great video! My power and accuracy have improved with this one swing thought. I was always trying to do the reverse K at address. Can’t wait for it to warm up so I can keep practicing!
My mentor who has was a long drive champion in college and was a teacher to a few long drive champions taught exactly what you're referencing. The reverse "K". His thoughts were to get as much mass behind the ball as possible to load up, but also to maintain the stability. Meaning not to sway off the ball. So you are just rotating around those points, maintaining the same position of your head back and through the ball. After impact allowing your weight transfer and momentum to pull you through to a nice finish. Ben Witter was his name. He sadly passed away a few years ago from a lifetime bout with cancer. Dude could flat out bomb it long before bombing it was the thing to do. I saw him regularly fly it close to 400 yds when technology wasn't really up to snuff yet. Dude could do stuff with a golf ball not even touring pros could do. He was also a celebrated trick shot artist.
Hi Shaun, just watched this video and isn't the pro at impact in the reverse K postion, understanding he did not set up like that , but it looks like it at impact, even it only seems that way due to body angles ??
Great Video! Sorry for the intrusion, I am interested in your initial thoughts. Have you researched - Paneevelyn Swinging Clubsman (google it)? It is a smashing one off product for revealing an effortless golf swing technique without the headache. Ive heard some extraordinary things about it and my cousin after many years got excellent success with it.
Nice and simple video guys! Have been trying to achieve and work the reverse k for ages and don't seem to be getting anywhere. Will give this a go from now on!
Great Video! Sorry for butting in, I would appreciate your opinion. Have you ever tried - Paneevelyn Swinging Clubsman (Have a quick look on google cant remember the place now)? It is a good one off guide for revealing an effortless golf swing technique without the normal expense. Ive heard some unbelievable things about it and my mate after many years got great results with it.
WOW, that little sway off the ball going back is my nemesis. When I stay over the top of it, I can hammer it. Thanks for showing it to me in simple terms.........
Ed Kelly me too! I do much better when I remember to keep eyes on ball w a slower back swing that’s aware of the weight loading into my back foot. I’ll even turn my back foot towards the target some when I’m really fed up to make sure I can’t sway. But ohhh man does it feel amazing when you load up the back foot nice and swing totally balanced smashing it out there for your best drive of the day😁 then ur buddies all try to do the same and end up out of bounds lol.
Can you do a video on Pro vs Am right foot position in swing. Does an improper right foot position lead to early extension, casting, over the top and other flaws?
No. I recently watched a video claiming by fixing the right heel lift can fix many faults. It claims Ams lift the right heel too early leading to early extension and spin the heel behind the toe on the follow thru instead of the heel being in a straight line hi above toe at follow thru. So by keeping the right heel planted until just before impact this can fix early extension and other faults, ie OTT, casting.... I was under the impression the weight is shifted to the left side toward the end of the backswing and the right heel pressure is little or may be lifted by the time left arm parallel or even earlier on the downswing.
@@Mitch-MD Gotcha... you're right based on the data. I would not recommend keeping the heel down (as general advice) as it has a very negative effect on hip rotation for so many golfers (among other things).
I noticed that with this pro’s swing the ball isn’t perfectly framed by the centre of their chest and pelvis. Does this only happen with irons and not happening here because this is a driver swing?
I think we teally need to start asking why. Why donthe pros change the angle on the downswing from hips and shoulders? Wouldn't that beore complicated and need more timing and what did he gain by not it from the beginning since he sacrificed the repeatability of his swing?
I "rediscovered" this yesterday on the course. Felt totally alien to me but the ballstriking was instantly better for the rest of my round. Have to fight the urge to push the lead hip toward the target so much.
This vid confused me at first look. Replayed it several times maybe I needed a line showing the hip movement as I cannot read the tiny writing! As usual this is one if not the go to site for info👍
Appreciate Video clip! Sorry for butting in, I would appreciate your thoughts. Have you considered - Paneevelyn Swinging Clubsman (search on google)? It is a great one of a kind product for revealing an effortless golf swing technique without the normal expense. Ive heard some unbelievable things about it and my good mate called Gray after a lifetime of fighting got excellent success with it.
I put the ball at the heel of leading foot, in the clip seems like the ball is few inches back of the heel? Also when should I cock my wrists during backswing?
Was hoping you could conduct the same analysis on the Rotary Swing based on Chuck Quinton’s swing concepts. Rotary Swing is one of the most successful on line training websites. Seeing his swing using your graphics would be helpful.
Just for clarity, these are actual golfers making these swings wearing a 3D motion capture suit. We've captured golfers who've come to work with us who've been doing about every modern method out there.
correction I call it the middle body I see the golf swing break down as the UPPER, MIDDLE AND LOWER BODIES from there i just connect the movements together. .....
Athletic Motion Golf number one, how does the posture (spine) change in 3d space throughout the swing: pro vs am? Two, how does the amount of arm lift relate to posture in pros only? It seems some pros have a bent over posture with deeper, lower arms. Some pros are more upright with a much higher arm lift. What does the kinetic chain look like for each, is there a timing distance, etc.
1. Is something we have planned in the hopper, but I'm not sure exactly when it will be released. 2. Is something that might be released next. It will be a quite unique look at the the left arm movement through the swing. The difference in posture and arm depth has a ton to do balancing "steep" and "shallow" elements of the swing. Lots of combo can work so long as the balance pretty well. Timing is ALWAYS a critical element, but because the swing happens in just less than a second... the timing in a good swing is pretty consistent across all the different "looks."
So glad to hear you say in the pro swing the upper body has a movement that moves outside the lower body. I've been looking for someone to prove my point on the subject. as you have there is science to explain why it happens...Btw it does it in the backswing as well and it will NOT effect the ability to shift weight; actually it allows the weight shift to better match your breathing rhythm..... good job!!!!!!!
Could you consider doing this video again but from an above the golfers head perspective? I think it’s important to understand where the centres are moving not only on the x axis (target to backward) but also on the y axis is (ball to behind the back). I think only seeing it from front on masks an important nuance. Huge fan of your work btw! Just think this one didn’t tell the whole story.
😭, seen and liked this video, five months ago, ... poor amateur is doing what sooooo many of us do, and reason is, it feels so powerful. he's early hinging the wrist, ....I'm just now drilling to do what the pro is doing, v maintain take away. keeping the right arm on top of the left and hinge late. it's so much better
Too bad. He had a right handed grip called the claw. In his own words he expanded his impact zone far more then any golfer so much to the point that he said he combed the ground with his club and the ball simply went away. He had a unique lateralized swing that prevents any one from spinning out of control to the left. And when ask why he sets his club head so far away from the ball; he said no particular reason. I think he held back the truth on that one. Natural golf teaches the Moe Norman swing; but I doubt if they ever produced another Moe. If they had I think they would have contacted you to wire this person up. In the mean time I will just keep searching for the swing myself. Thanks for reading.
In my opinion you are not describing the reverse K correctly. Obviously getting your chest over your right foot is a bad move. But so is letting your hips sway away from the target. I believe the reverse K speaks more to keeping your hips centered then letting them sway backwards. To someone who is swing that would almost feel like a bump towards the target.
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Enjoying the videos, but this should really be titled "Why the Reverse K Position Sucks Ass" (for example), as it doesn't address lateral motion in terms of pressure/weight shift in the downswing, which the current title implies.
I'm not sure that this video is really that relevant. Look at both swings at impact and see if you can see any differences. Admittedly, that is only a front view and doesn't show the swing plain. But generally speaking, how you get to a good position is not nearly as important as just getting to that position. When I played more golf and had a 4 handicap I could deliberately do everything the professional teachers said was wrong and still end up at a good position at impact.
My name is Patrick Miller. I know that this have anything to do with this video. But I was wondering if you have a video that measures the distance of the hands at the top of the back swing from the swing center. And then the distance of the hands from the swing center at p. 5, and at impact. What I'm trying to figure out is. Once the hands reach the top of the back swing if that distance changes through impact
Great questions, and no, we haven’t done a video on that but we should. The right arm (trail arm) will be the bent the most at the top, so it could be said that’s when the hands would be closest to the center. The right arm straightens during the downswing so the hands should be moving away from the center all the way to impact.
I watched this video this morning and I had to go try my driver without the reverse k set-up. I shot my best ever score of 42 over 9 holes. Why do others teach the reverse k? I've never hit my driver so consistently sweet.
Great analysis. Love data and biomechanics. Could you please explain in a bit more detail the move or feeling to have to have the upper body behind lower body somewhere in mid downswing. Thanks!
That would actually make a great video explaining that in greater detail... but for time being... that action of the upper getting behind the lower later in the downswing should be the result a huge pressure spike in the front foot which creates that bend coming into the ball. The damage is done when that bend is put in during transition.
We have a number of that we've compared, but 3 come to mind. These 3 players have pretty significantly different body types and sizes, none of them have the same "looking" move, but all have won on tour. But looking at their swings on GEARS relative to their upper torso's relationship to the lower's, they have them on top of one another until late downswing (which is when they should deviate).
Really interesting video. But how is the pros head so far left (when looking at him) to his centre chest? In fact looking closer the chest lines looks to be over to the right of the chest not centre. Some kind of optical illusion?
In the conventional swing , ALL problems start when the player tries to develop centripetal acceleration !!! Moe Norman produced c.a.in the easiest manner IMO ! OVER and OVER !
I have enjoyed a few of your video's. Knowing the positions and flow is so helpful.... Then, for me, the challenge becomes athletically loading (smoothly twisting the spring). Feeling the loading of the spring first in the lower abs, then chest, shoulders, arms, then both hands (club in 'triangle'), then smoothly firing the abs a bit. If i reverse everything smoothly it tends to work out. Since golf is not my first language (learned later in life), my pre-shot routine is a test backswings that load the , with a good shoulder turn and i feel my hands are in the right spot to deliver the golf club.... and then during the swing i try to replicate but focus on the precise loading, firing (including weight shift before the top of the backswing) of the lower abs. Curious for those where golf is also a second language, how do you think about loading and unloading the spring?
Hi have you made a computer analyst of Moe Norman's swing? If so I would love to see it. I believed I have developed a darn good and easy lateralized golf swing for myself and possibly others after carefully observing Moe Norman clinics on You Tube. I believe his stretch out arms was his own preference and not needed to carry out his trail arm single axis lateralized golf swing. Thanks and have a great day
Hi Thomas - thanks for watching👍 These are actually captured swings of real golfers wearing reflective markers all over the body and club that gets recorded by 8 cameras. All 8 of those videos are processed to create the 3D images we show in our videos... it's way more complex than that, but that's basically how it's done. Unfortunately, to do Moe's swing he would have to be suited up and make swings. Since the tech wasn't available when he was still alive, I don't think we'll have any concrete evidence of what he actually did during his swing.
Some of the greatest swings in the history if the game been lateral correct? Jack Nicklaus Payne Stewart Mickey Wright Colin Montgomery Johnny Miller Mike Austin Can definitely be used for power and control. Seemed like their dominant power source was lateral or a shift back and down.
@@AthleticMotionGolf Thank you for the reply! I watched it over again. This may not be directly related to the video, but as this video showed the forward shift with the pro, I'd like to ask you what initiates the downswing. Some as Jim Hardy said that it starts with a slight bump/lateral shift to the left and then the entire unwind swing happens (paraphrasing my understanding of it).
I love the AMG videos but sometimes they crack me up. "As you can see from this squiggly line, the pros move their hips ever so slightly all over the place, but in a different squiggly way from your hips. Now, all you have to do is get your body to fit into these data points and you too can be better at golf. "
I have to disagree ! Most golfers dont have the flexibility, technique, strength, athletic ability as tour players so this will probably wont work for the majority of people watching this. this is for tour players not you!!
Respectfully, you could not be more wrong, lol. We work with golfers EVERY day, regular golfers, who can and do learn to do this and are better for it. We DO NOT make videos for tour players, we make them for regular golfers.
Never heard of reverse k but I’ve seen it on the course, not being able to point your chest to where you want to driver the strike seems like a recipe for hitting errant shots.
What your saying you don't really need Gears or K-Vest to see. Of course those two set ups are different. Pro's have a much lower angle of attack and are willing to give up distance for control. They drive the ball lower. And you see that in the setup you are showing. The reason the reverse K is popular for amateurs is that it helps create an upward angle of attack which leads to more carry.
That's one of the common myths in the game... pros actually hit it higher than ams. They are trying to add distance just like ams. The pro in this video has an upward angle of attack. Setting up in a reverse K is not the best way increase angle of attack or carry.
I have a big problem with lateral motion. My upper body moves forward and I hit all manner of bad shots. I have been pushing out with my feet to brace my lower body which keeps my upper body more centered. Is this a good practice? Love your videos. Do you have any viewing suggestions?
The "when" is really key with lateral motion. All the great ballstrikers have it, they just have it early. Have you had a chance to see these yet? ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-j6SkUz3bxUY.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-4Y0YQvu-7mo.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UTPKZqLQQKU.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-YsnqL35TSF8.html
'exactly' might have been too strong from my point. but in principle looks similar. This is great that you can truly see all this in 3d, thank you for posting it, now just have to find where I can 'suit up' and see what mine looks like.
@Athletic Motion ...If your asking why bump your hips slightly to your left at address here is a video explaining it the title of the video is" Hip bump explained!! Its by Adam Porzak
@@RomanEmpire16 the ball is forward with a driver so we already setup behind it. Trail hand is lower on the grip so there’s already tilt. And nothing about bumping aids in turning. In fact there a lot of evidence to the contrary. I can’t recall any of the pros we have data on doing it yet they all have those same elements in their swings. I understand it can be a preference, just looking for the measurable why or benefit over no bump.
@Athletic Motion Golf i don't really understand your reply did you watch the video I mentioned? Adam Porzak is a reputable instructor he explains why there should be a hip bump at address not a bump on the downswing I was just wondering what your take is on having that hip bump at address shaping that reverse k look and allowing you to have room swinging back
Shaune - what’s the forward bend and left side bend numbers of the pro vs amateur ? I’ve been using KVest recently and on video I look like the pro but KVest says I have way too much backward bend at the top. When I get the amount of forward bend they want I look more like the amateur in your video.
Every great player has the pelvis in front of the torso at that point in the swing, and do so for a couple reasons... one being the vertical force generated as the club approaches impact. That is not a reverse K, especially with regards to what is being discussed in this video.
Thanks for fixing my swing, I’ve developed over 40 yrs what Most people thought was a great swing, I get compliments all the time, by good golfers, I have good balance and tempo. What they and I didn’t realise was that my down ward plane was above my backswing plane. I have always struggled with controlling my slice. By raising my hands and takeaway to my middle shoulder, then pulling shaft down, im finally dropping it into the slot... wow now swing speed is up, effortless draw, more lag....
I was thinking the same thing.....it makes sense to know who's swing is being analysed, as not knowing detracts from the value. I saw a GEARS video comparing Ian Poulter and Ricky Fowler -made a huge difference.
Lol well one is playing a draw and the other is playing a fade that’s one reason both those swings are different when you set up for a fade you don’t lean the golf club forward you only do that with draws because it helps get your swing path starting to right
Great video! It has changed my ideas about the correct setup. But, it also raises the question: In an anatomical sense how does the pro get his head behind the ball. It would seem that this might be done by shifting the two center forward and leaving the head back; as opposed to the reverse-k method of shifting the hip center forward of the upper body center. Is there a simple drill that you could recommend in order to achieve the correct setup? One idea for another video might be to get the pro to go through his setup procedure on gears and review how he does it.
Yes I see although your "amateur positions the ball in the same position relative to the left foot as the pro in the video. But, I get the point. I am inadvertently shifting my hips forward in order the club head further back in my stance. Perhaps in order to get the right position I should feel more weight on my front foot as in your early extension example. I should add; my natural error is a push fade. Thanks for the tip and the great info in your videos.
Who ever promoted the K position was dumb and did not watch a lot of pros. I tried that K position for years and could not go nowhere. Since I changed few months ago, I have better ball flight.
The pros are great...and they are also talented. Amateurs did not invent the "reverse k". Instead, pros gave us the "reverse k" in the past. Just because the pros are doing something, it does not make it correct for amateurs. I am not saying the "reverse k" is right or wrong. Think of it this way, if you decide to play all shots from an open stance, then you might find it easier to hit down on the ball and also to hit the ball higher off the ground. BUT, you might find that you slice the ball and hit fat when you miss. If you decide to hit from a closed stance, you might hit your short irons crisper and further. BUT, you might have difficulty getting your 5 iron airborne. NOW, with that in mind, think about what the pros are trying to do by swinging this way in the video presented. Then, if you think about it, you will understand why most of the PROS are swinging this way. As Arnold Palmer said, "Swing YOUR swing."
It's actually just the opposite. We work with amateurs every day and get them moving like this. There is zero value in us making a video that does would not be useful to the everyday golfer. What's discussed in this video is very beneficial and VERY doable for amateur golfers from every age and skill level.
We can't show the hundred plus pro swings the data is based on so we always choose a pro who represents the movement. NONE of our pros vs ams are based on one pro or one am, that would be useless👍
@@AthleticMotionGolf can't please everyone hey. The reason I said anything is because it's helpful to see that there is some shift in the hips, just different between different people (joint angles, etc). It can get a bit confusing when there's one shot of one pro on one club (eg an approach P Wedge) having almost 0 hip movement, when another pro trying to go full effort on a tee off (3W or 1W) is going to have more hip lateral movement. Still appreciate you showing the videos. Thanks for the content.
