Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work & A Blunder | Part 2

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In this episode of "Mormonism Live," hosts Radio Free Mormon and Bill Reel dissect the claims made in the RU-vid video titled "Hebrew Evidence for The Book of Mormon | A Marvelous Work | Episode 2" by Scott Christopher and "Book of Mormon Central." The original video purports to uncover Hebrew evidences for the Book of Mormon, presenting them as compelling proof of its divine origin.
Chapters:
*04:00 Rabbi Joe Charnes’ take on Jacob 5
19:30 Don Perry - Hebraisms
52:30 Olive Horticulture
1:25:00 Moroni’s Promise
1:39:00 Callers
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30 июн 2024

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Комментарии : 267

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

Might you consider going to the original video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hXtUbMg0BXg.htmlsi=r0erVmucygtEC9Yg and letting Scott and Book of Mormon Central know that their deception around alleged evidence is noticed and is not ethical.

@LatterDayPup 3 месяца назад

Translation: Bombard their video and comment section with downvotes and abusive comments. Gotcha.

@sallygreenfield6991 3 месяца назад

@@LatterDayPup That's not what they said, and not what they meant. This is, in fact, the point of a comment section...

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

I didn't say that. Also that isn't wrong in and of itself. I said to leave a comment. Its how you notify content creators of your view and feelings about their content.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@LatterDayPup "Translation: Bombard their video and comment section with downvotes and abusive comments. Gotcha." Or, people can just refute the Mormon apologists' claims with facts and logic, like Bill and RFM did in this video.

@deweydewey6714 3 месяца назад

You guys are apostates that are so full of crap! Why don't you invite a real scholar, s Mormon one on your show? I know why, because they would make you guys look like the fools you are! One thing I would like to know is what are the details of the restoration of ALL things as you see it?!? A rabbi?!? Those are usually do blind that they can't seem to understand their own old testament!!! "What are these wounds in thy hands?" LOL You guys are so ignorant and stupid!!!

@casterrunner8709 3 месяца назад

You two are absolutely fabulous! Thank you! Eternally grateful!

@SleepySloth100 3 месяца назад

As a never-mo I must admit to struggling a little trying to get my brain round the wherefore and thouest’s got kinda confusing but just coz I’m still learning the lingo. Listened to the whole lot tho which shows the true power of engagement you guys have, even working with my tiny brain-cell! Thank you for all you do, you boys & Maven do a consistently stellar job. Love to you and all in the MD Inc family from across the pond in Scotland 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 ❤

@KendraAndTheLaw 3 месяца назад

The BOM says wheat and barley existed in mesoAmerican times in the Americans. It's beyond stupid. But clearly understandable for someone in the 1820s.

@user-qb1ot1xi8q 3 месяца назад

Never-Mormon here. No historical support for BOM and just more lifting ideas from the Bible (Romans 11). I actually watched this whole video last week. Didn't hear a single compelling argument. Thanks for examining this. Really enjoy the show.

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

Well said!

@monus782 3 месяца назад

As another non-Mormon when I decided to read the text like I’ve done with other scriptures like the Qu’ran I became less convinced of its truth claims the more I read, however I already knew about many of the issues around it brought up by this podcast so I guess my heart was super hardened by then. It was listening to apologists defending this text that convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible.

@kledjadauti2340 3 месяца назад

Bills reactions while playing this are hilarious😂

@tirdadderakhshani1940 2 месяца назад

The scene with the Spanish olive tree is priceless. How do these people look in the mirror every morning? The sheer level of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty is stunning.

@cyberdevil3000 3 месяца назад

Why would hypothetical hebraisms even matter in the Book of Mormom if it was supposedly written in reformed Egyptian? Are we supposed to believe that the writers of the Book of Mormon incorporated hebraisms into a language that is completely different from Hebrew and that those Hebraisms were then translated out of reformed Egyptian into English by Joseph Smith? The whole thing just seems ridiculous on the face of it

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

It was funny when Donald Parry said that those "Hebraisms" in the BOM "survived the translation". Duh, could it be that those "Hebraisms" are in the BOM because the BOM is plagiarized from the KJV Bible?

@canpow98 3 месяца назад

Such a good belly laugh at RFM’s joke - “How is Scott still an active Mormon after doing this show?”

@TexasRoadrunner 3 месяца назад

The yellow/golden backdrop reminds me of a school bus. The marvelous adventures of Bill and RFM....

@LatterDayInvestigator 3 месяца назад

No joke, as I started watching this just now, the skip-able ad before it was for the BoM Central show this video is critiquing. Haha

@CandlewickLibrary 3 месяца назад

It’s so crazy to watch this and know that the people that watch the show faithfully will just glaze right over the fact that the olive tree answers didn’t match. This will be faith building for so many people I think, and they won’t even realize it’s ridiculous.

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

Elevation Emotion and Belief Persistence has the brain finding a way

@shebamaree9026 3 месяца назад

satan loves emotions! we are to live in faith. read what Jesus says about bad shepherds!

@Wren402 3 месяца назад

Too bad LDS leaders can’t bring themselves to find something nice to say about other faiths like Rabbi Joe does.

@sallygreenfield6991 3 месяца назад

The tree of 40 fruits is at Syracuse University! My ~*Alma*~ Mater, and 60 miles from Palmyra. 😂

@user-jl3zb9ej6d 3 месяца назад

Great episode. One thing I would add on Hebrew cognates, there are examples of them in the Bible, which Joseph Smith could have noticed, and the use of Cognate Objects is also found in English literature. It is not limited to Hebrew.

@erintucker934 3 месяца назад

Great job lady and gentlemen as always! Both entertaining and enraging. Oyyy

@rockthemic12 3 месяца назад

Showing an ancient example of the name Alma just helps refute the claim that the use of the name is an anachronism. But, I agree with Bill and RFM’s conclusion that it doesn’t support the claim that the Book of Mormon has an ancient origin.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Bill showed that the name Alma was common in Joseph Smith's milieu. Since rural people weren't consistent in spelling of names, I wonder if the name wasn't really supposed to be Elmer. As in Elmer Fudd. :-)

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521In 1917, a psychologist named Walter Prince wrote an article hypothesizing about the way that Joseph Smith may have generated names for various characters, often drawing inspiration from names of people and events that were prominent in his life and environs and, in many cases, reworking them (either consciously or subconsciously) in order to avoid being too obvious. A name like Sam could get through, even though it was also the name of Joe's brother, because it was biblical. Alvin and Emma would be two names that would keep popping up in Joe's mind, but they would be rejected because they weren't biblical enough or strange enough...but they would have enough power to propel a name like ALMA (ALvin and emMA) into his mind as a suitable choice. Prince also hypothesized that the over abundance of names that included "MOR" and "ON" syllables in them suggested that the story of William MORgAN was very prominent in Joe's mind. And the name AMMORON was a case where even the AM from the name williAM was included. Prince also demonstrated how Joe would change a couple letters in an attempt to disguise an obvious source/original name, such as changing an "s" to an "h" so that Masonry becomes Mahonri and Master Mason becomes Master Mahan.

@rickyricky4738 3 месяца назад

This is the freaking mormon ad that I keep getting in my youtube feed. 😄

@tylerboyce6502 3 месяца назад

Funny.. while watching this podcast and when you cut to a segment of the original show, I noticed the "skip" button down in the corner and realized that it was a commercial for the original, during your show about the show 😮...

@DancingQueenie 3 месяца назад

Why olive trees in the BofM? They were introduced to the Americas in the 18th century AD! Lehi/Nephi would’ve known olive trees but every generation after them would have no idea. How about an avocado tree allegory?

@Enos_Envy 3 месяца назад

So funny when they say calling olive orchards, "vineyards" only further validates the BoM. lol

@TheCollapsedPsi 3 месяца назад

These evidences really make me sigh a sigh.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

I did see what you did say there.

@whitesalamander 3 месяца назад

You two Elders of Exmo dusted your feet off on Scott Gordon and The Daniel C-no-evidence Peterson😂

@edbutzwiggle4227 3 месяца назад

Informative and hilarious. Thanks y’all.

@user-hl9hl9ei1r 3 месяца назад

I allways ejoyed "hebrew evodence" for mormonism as a hebrew speaker. I watched the original video when it came out, and was quite underwhelmed as i found it vary "narrow"... Im glad you covered these lame appologetics - very low hanging fruit. I would like to add a nail to Alma's coffin - Alma is used as proof of the hebrew origin (of the reformed egyptian) BOM. But by 132 ce the spoken language of jews was not hebrew, but Arameic. I allways waited for the better apologetic claim to surface - the use of the term "vineyard" to describe an olive grove. The hebrew word KEREM is used both for a grape vineyard (KEREM ANAVIM) and for an olive grove (KEREM ZEITIM). The use of "vineyard" is a poor translation of the KJV translators of Isayah that is not correctrd by JS in his "most correct book". It is a vineyard where he borrows from the old testemant (originaly in hebrew) and an orchard where he borrows from the new testemant (originaly greek). There are no grapes in this allegory - olives have allways been FRUIT in jewish tradition, jews bless olives as "fruit of the tree" the same as apples and oranges. Bill's asumption on this matter is incorrect. As for wild olives - they are uncommon, and yeild poor olives. Nobody in his right mind would graft them onto a domesticated variety. It serms that JS was as proficient in translation as he was in agriculture😂 I would like to propose an alternative levantine horticultural allegory: "And it came to pass that the almond tree gave only bitter almonds. The farmer chose to cut it down and graft onto it a graft from a sweet almond tree. The graft healed and grew, and yeilded sweet almonds for one season. But alas, for thereafter it again yeilded bitter almonds - thus is the way of the almond tree. The roots and the stem of the bitter almonds will poison whichever fruit shall grow from its bitter source".

@MalcolmLeitch1 3 месяца назад

On the subject of names in the Book of Mormon, one thing that I have never seen addressed is the fact that almost every name in the BofM is easy to pronounce. Compared to names on the Old Testament where peoples names are almost always hard to pronounce and longer than most Western names like names in the BofM.

@JeffNealsPlace 3 месяца назад

Hey Bill, are we not all living in Bizarro World.. lol. I have some pretty interesting theories on this. Glad to finally hear someone besides myself use that term.

@ellieroo6719 3 месяца назад

19:46 Why do they even go to “Hebraisms”? Shouldn’t they be presenting Reformed Egyptiaisms?

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Or Mayanisms? :-)

@KendraAndTheLaw 3 месяца назад

And why don't they ask the current "prophets, seers and revelators" for some answers? The Mormon Jesus must be on a very long vacation. Hehehe.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

Yeah, it is "A Marvelous Work and a Blunder". But it is also "A Marvelous Work and a Plunder". You gotta hand it to the leaders of the thing. They know how to take doctrinal/theological lemons and turn them into financial lemonade. (Ensign Peak chimes in: "Yeah, how you like them lemons now!? This ain't your daddy's prophet's lemonade stand!")

@bartonbagnes4605 3 месяца назад

You described this channel perfectly.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@bartonbagnes4605 Did you pay your tithing this week? Because the LDS church really needs your widow's mite, seeing as how they just forked over $192 million to buy properties from the RLDS church.

@bartonbagnes4605 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521 Whether I paid tithing as commanded in the Bible, and how much, is between God and myself. And paying tithing is not about whether the church needs tithing. It's about obedience to God. And in the future we will yet again be required to give everything to the church to be evenly distributed according to needs, as was done by the church of Jesus Christ right after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, as shown in Acts 5. If you knew what the Bible says you would never speak against tithing or even bring it up.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@bartonbagnes4605 "paying tithing is not about whether the church needs tithing. It's about obedience to God." What you call obedience, I call gullibility. " If you knew what the Bible says you would never speak against tithing or even bring it up." LOL. I was a Mormon for the first 42 years of my life. I learned and taught about the law of tithing and the verse in Malachi a half century ago on my LDS mission. The larger question on the table is not whether you should pay tithing, but whether you should give it to a money-hungry org that already has a reported wealth of $200 billion.

@bartonbagnes4605 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521 Money hungry? That's hilarious. You perfectly well that no member gets any more or less depending on how much Tithing is paid. 100 years ago this church was in debt. Even in the 80s they didn't have much wealth. But in the last few decades time and again they have invested early in things before they exploded in value, and sold them at the peak value. Clearly God is preparing for something major, something that will probably devastate most of those who aren't as prepared. For this church is not a reactive church like all the others, it is a proactive church, often doing things that seem strange or unnecessary until after something major happens, and it turns out to be exactly what was needed to be ready for them.

@Slammu640 3 месяца назад

Ok so the horticulture guy reminded me of a BYU paper I read years ago about the BoM taking place at Baja California bc the climate was most similar to Israel's for growing crops. Super interesting

@HelloUser1 3 месяца назад

"Now with TWICE the Hebrew!"

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Oy vey!

@Jaycee0105 3 месяца назад

I posted this link to Book of Mormon’s Marvelous Work and a Wonder RU-vid. I wonder how long they will keep my comment up there 🤔

@perryekimae 3 месяца назад

6:45 Can we all just celebrate how kind and generous Rabbi Joe Charnes was in engaging with these apologists. Just the nicest possible guy. I was so impressed with how patient and magnanimous he was in giving the Book of Mormon as much credit as he possibly could. Secular blessings be upon him! 7:30 First thing I noticed too RFM. Articulated my feelings so well! 14:48 Nail on the head, Maven! 22:32 Oh man, they cut out his first response and jumped right to Sidal's law, which is silly enough for this space. His first response is about the "many ands", which can easily be refuted by referencing Armaments, chapter 2, verses 9 to 21. As to the Sidal's law example provided, that verse in 2 Nephi 28 is very obviously referring to Isaiah 28. It also refers to Luke. So, maybe not the best evidence of a 6th century BCE origin of that passage... But yeah, Bill is spot on for why this line of apologetics, broadly, is a non-starter for the Book of Mormon at its present level of evidentiary support. 41:07 Love this refresh on the Alma takedown. They couldn't even go with an interesting one like "Jershon"? Seriously? I could make a more compelling apologetic case. 45:05 The cognate verbs claim is beyond silly. Leans on English cognate verbs because he can't show a Hebrew one that would make better sense of the text than it stands as translated. 49:09 And it came to pass constitutes 2% of the first edition of the Book of Mormon. 1:19:13 Zenos is the most influential vanishing Old Testament prophet of the them all. To influence so many other texts and just vanish from history is almost more impressive than anything else. Or, ya know, Joseph made it up. Great stuff! Love seeing apologetics fall apart under the weight of its own BS.

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

Yes, I think Rabbi Joe Charnes seems like a genuinely good person, and frankly if you're trying to build interfaith relationships, especially with such a narcissistic one as Mormonism, you have to handle them with kid gloves. Given Mormonism's anti semitic past, Rabbi Joe is a good influence on Mormons if it teaches them to be kinder

@perryekimae 3 месяца назад

@@amazinmaven Kid gloves is a fantastic way of describing it. For the Central team to not even realize how grossly antisemitic Jacob 5 is, and for Rabbi Charnes to handle the situation with such grace is frankly impressive. The full interview was like 30 minutes of kids gloves treatment of Mormonism. I don't think the Central team appreciates that fact.

@ShulaMG 3 месяца назад

I’m 15 minutes in. Maven is so right. A few minutes later, good for you, Bill. As for the rest, this is a great critique. Does the original film host think he is adept at the Jedi Mind Trick?

@Jaycee0105 3 месяца назад

It’s annoying that the commercials for this video is The Church’s version of the Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

@sleepycalico 3 месяца назад

MAVEN, probably others have already said this, but, yes, that beautiful multi-grafted tree will thrive and it would be an excellent choice for a small yard. Each of the grafts will remain true to its original fruit. That's where JS got it wrong: He thought the fruit on the graft would take on the characteristics of the tree to which it was grafted. My Dad used to graft different fruits on to one tree. He was on an acre, so he didn't need to, but he enjoyed it as a gardening project and showing them off to visitors. I see these multi-grafted trees for sale sometimes at big gardening centers.

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

I'm gonna add the multi-fruit tree to my "dream home" list along with my koi pond!

@CJ-hw6br 3 месяца назад

20:10 Is it just me, or is the phrase “narrowest book” grammatically incorrect in this instance? Shouldn’t it be “thinnest book?” I suppose it might depend on point of view.

@dianamoss159 3 месяца назад

Maybe they mean narrow-minded.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

He was probably thinking of where to stick the useless book in the event that the author gifted it to him...and remembered that there was a narrow gap between the roof of his shed and the wall at one corner, and the book looked to be the perfect size to jam into it to keep bugs from easily getting into the shed. Thin would be the preferred word to describe the front-to-back dimension of the book. But when thinking of a space to cram it into, narrow would be appropriate. ;o)

@hattswank5313 3 месяца назад

That voice is so alluring, though. All part of the design. He could read you recipes and it would sound appealing.

@Hilla3of5 3 месяца назад

One of the YT adds was for the very program being analyzed here. All I could do is sit and laugh at it before skipping it to get back to more analysis. 😂 Makes their PR appear pretty desperate to show up here.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

There are rumors going around claiming that Scott Christopher is a thespian...and may have actually engaged in thespian activities when this video was made.

@vegadog3053 3 месяца назад

I'm confused. Did we get any spanish olives out of this? I should like to taste the fruit for myself.

@barryrichins 3 месяца назад

Faith without evidence is void. What I at present know about the Book of Mormon makes it almost a joke. I have spent too much time in the field and have read too many accredited academics in genetics, archaeology, paleontology, linguistics, and history to consider the Book of Mormon a serious work of scripture or history, religious or secular.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

That is why not a single non-Mormon scholar since the BOM was published has supported the premise that it's authentic.

@CJ-hw6br 3 месяца назад

As always - when it comes down to the pray-to-know pitch (Moroni’s Promise) - IF I get the happy feels that the BoM is true, is it okay to join a branch of Mormonism that isn’t the Brighamite’s? 🧐 I’m guessing… no.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

I'm always amazed at how little effort the "true believers" put into examining that formula for "knowing" to consider whether it could even remotely be a valid method for determining whether something is or isn't true in any reality-based sense. For one thing, it has an inherently illogical circularity built into it. Readers are instructed by the book to rely on an unproven method suggested to them by the book...to determine whether or not the book is what it claims to be and the book implies, without any evidence whatsoever, that the method suggested is unquestionably valid. And the method says nothing about looking for independent verification in the form of real-world corroboration, based on facts, the application of basic logic and the existence of actual things mentioned by the book. Nope. It instructs people to rely on the one thing that is impossible to quantify, measure, date, triangulate, corroborate or relate to the real world---namely, subjective feelings. It gets even worse in the way that the formula has been and continues to be applied by the leaders of the Church, based on the following interpretation: (1) if you pray and get a good feeling, that is the Holy Ghost telling you that it's true (and the assertion that good feeling = Holy Ghost is what is called a "bald assertion"); (2) if you pray and get no particular feeling, that just means you have to keep trying because the Holy Ghost wants to give you confirmation but, for some reason, you're just not in tune with the Holy Ghost (so it's your fault that you haven't gotten confirmation yet from the Holy Ghost); and (3) if you pray and you get feelings telling you that the Book of Mormon is fake, phony and false...well, that's the Devil telling you that (and of course if THE DEVIL is telling you that it's fake, phony and false...then it obviously must be true, you know, because the Devil always lies. So, in reality, the formula for knowing is based on the premise that the Book of Mormon is absolutely what it claims to be so any other answer has to be wrong.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

"Moroni's promise" is just an aspect of Joseph Smith's folk magic/con artistry. In the 1820s, during his bogus treasure-digging activities, he would perform magical incantations with his acolytes with the intent of locating the buried treasure. If anyone in the group moved or spoke or did anything to break the spell, the slippery treasure would sink further into the ground and not be obtained. The purpose of such spells is to mentally and emotionally place the burden of the legitimacy of the claim onto the acolytes, rather than on the magician. "Moroni's promise" is the same. If the reader of the BOM doesn't get that warm fuzzy feeling that it's true, it's because of his/her personal failings or unworthiness. But if the reader DOES get that warm fuzzy feeling, he becomes a troo believer, and it's difficult for them to break their minds free of that cult mind control. ALL forms of con artistry use the same basic technique. The "con" in "con man" refers to "confidence." Once the con man gains the trust of his marks, he can take advantage of them mentally, emotionally, and financially. Mormonism as a whole is nothing but a gigantic con game. Other cults such as Scientology employ the same techniques.

@Alnava-ml3wn 3 месяца назад

Even a broken clock ⏰ is right twice a day. Scott Christoper wasn’t right even once.

@kentthalman4459 3 месяца назад

I remember seeing Scott Christopher on other online commercial videos. Is he just an actor?

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

He is! It's not his real last name but his stage name, even

@OuttaMyMind911 3 месяца назад

If Jacob 5 is truly a “literary masterpiece” like the video’s host claims, then where is the recognition in academic circles? The BoM has been around for about a couple hundred years now. Where are the college literature courses that have a BoM section in the curriculum? Where are the universities that teach about the ancient history of the Americas and use the BoM as a guide because of the “greatness of the evidence”? Spoiler alert. None do. Because there isn’t any good evidence to support these claims. I’ll even bet BYU academics don’t insert the BoM into areas outside the actual religion classes.

@monus782 3 месяца назад

I can only speak for myself as a non-Mormon but when I decided to read the Book of Mormon, alongside other religious texts such as the Qu’ran, there were parts of it that fascinated me but I definitely wouldn’t call it a literary masterpiece either especially after going through all the “and it came to pass” repetitions. The more I read it the less convinced I became of its truth claims (same for the Qu’ran btw) but that may have been because I already knew about all the issues regarding the text brought up by podcasts like this one. However I left Christianity in general mostly because of the lack of historical evidence over many of the stories in the Bible so I guess my heart was already super hardened by then and I’m probably incapable of hearing the Spirit according to Mormon lore.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@monus782 I suggest you read Alexander Campbell's 1831 critique of the Book of Mormon.

@steveambrose2349 3 месяца назад

Isn’t it fair to say that most any book that speaks positively of a God can be said to be a book that claims to be the most correct on earth and that a person could possibly get closer to god by reading it? Thus it is faith, not fact, that propels a person to believe in it. Thus culture and teachings are what makes a person think something is real.

@monus782 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521I’ve heard of it before but I’ll take a look, from what I’ve glimpsed it sounds interesting and it shows that even in Smith’s day people could already see what he really was up to

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@monus782 It's on the internet. You should read it.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

The whole line of argumentation about "Hebraisms" somehow proving the authenticity of the Book of Mormon as a genuine ancient record is ludicrous. For one thing, they always conveniently avoid mentioning the fact that virtually the entirety of the literature and literary conventions existing in Joseph Smith's day was inextricably connected to the Bible (both Old Testament and New Testament) and countless works of literature based thereon, including theological treatises, sermons, works of fiction (such as Dante's "Inferno", Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress" and Milton's "Paradise Lost" -- just as 3 easy examples). Educated people (e.g. Hyrum Smith and Oliver Cowdery) would have been educated to a significant extent with the use of Bible-related literature. Many theological seminaries and institutions existed and the study of Hebrew was a standard feature of the curriculum (just as much as the study of ancient Greek, etc.). Another thing they often gloss over is the fact that pointing out certain literary conventions that existed in ancient Hebraic literature is meaningless if such literary conventions are not and never were EXCLUSIVE to that literary tradition and are, in fact, found in variations in multiple languages and cultures.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Not to mention that the BOM is heavily plagiarized from the KJV Bible.

@sudosuga 2 месяца назад

@Mormon Discussion @00:20:10 Please write that empty book. Something like: Title: A Comprehensive guide. The Archaeological, linguistic, and DNA evidences for the Book of Mormon. Cover art: Pictures of Inca, Maya'n and Anasazi sites. Table of Contents: "After 200 yrs of academic research, Nothing has been found." Footnotes: List of anachronisms, Mormon Discussion podcasts Etc. A companion book we can place in Marriot rooms. Lets flood the world! For behold. How great shall be your joy, if you save but one soul from the tentacles of the Mormon corporation.

@InternationalMysteries360 3 месяца назад

I’m a nevermo who has become hooked on this stuff, you and Mormon Stories in particular. I would just like to point out that because you all rightly figured out Joe made it up, this does not translate to all religions and shouldn’t be compared. I have been Episcopal all my life, and I haven’t never heard any of this craziness. An example is you pointed out that the human phenomenon of elevation is interpreted by the Mormon church as the Holy Ghost, therefore, you said a Holy Spirit does not exists. What if it is that everyone can get a feeling of the Holy Spirit, this merely proves Mormonism isn’t the “one true church.” My point is, because that was false, doesn’t mean everything is false. Carah Burrell needs to learn this as well. Sandra Tanner, for example has examined other forms of Christianity and found them to be much more valuable. You do a great job of exposing these falsities, but please stop equivocating with things that aren’t equivalent. I could go on really😊. Generally great show and actually had me laughing in places. Thank you.

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

How do you know they aren't equivocal? The foundational doctrine of Christianity is problematic. The idea that a loving, all powerful parent will kill their favorite child in order to accept all other children or torture them forever is psychotic.

@InternationalMysteries360 3 месяца назад

@@amazinmaven I don't know what happened to my reply, but I will do it again. I think there is a huge distinction. My church for example, looks to the New Testament and the message of Jesus which is simple: love one another. It is quite different than the complicated message of a white guy who read it in a hat and created a happy family sect. This does not seem the same as claiming Jesus came to America, cursed all the people of color but thumbs up to white people. Why would he have to appear to America? That's souns like manifest destiny to me. With respect to the OT, in part it depends if you view God as a paternal figure who does only what the collective "you" think is right, or if you view God as nothing more than a majic man granting wishes. I maintain its much more complex than that, which why it's been studied for centuries. As I said in the present day, churches like mine focus on the simple message of Jesus not the seemingly manufactured complex story, where revelation is only given to old white guys. I do not see a parallel at all. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

@drakelazerus 3 месяца назад

“You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe”― Carl Sagan

@andrewalma 3 месяца назад

❤

@ginafrancis4950 3 месяца назад

Yes!! Thank you! Gotta love Carl Sagan!❤

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Gee, just think about how much faith a true believing Scientologist must have in order to believe in Xenu the evil galactic warlord.

@leecooper3852 3 месяца назад

The 2 Nephi 28:30 is a direct quote from Isaiah 28:13...both say..."here a little there a little".. In the rest of the verse, nowhere else in the Bible does the bible say that... on top of that 2 Nephi 28 is the same as Isaiah 28... It's as though they've just compared the Bible verse for verse and wrote some paraphrase to the book of mormon, Mixing and matching according to the topic, but reading down the Bible to produce something different, in a different order, while using the same terminology that's found in the king James version.

@markvonwisco7369 3 месяца назад

"Jewish Rabbi?" Is there such a thing as non-Jewish Rabbis?

@thermionic1234567 3 месяца назад

I’m sick of this phrase as well. Right up there with “free gift” and “buy one, get one free.”

@CJ-hw6br 3 месяца назад

We’ll forward this question to the Department of Redundancy Department.

@TalismanianDevil 3 месяца назад

Apparently, Joseph Smith’s Hebrew God wasn’t proficient when it came to alloys either. Brass is a metal alloy composed of copper and zinc. Brass can’t be used in a compass because it throws off the magnetic field of the instrument. It’s called “Lenz’s Law”. The Liahona would have been useless with regard to Lehi’s navigation.

@celicalostandfound 3 месяца назад

Interestingly there are King Jameism in Isaiah. For instance KJV Isaiah 49:25 "But thus saith the Lord, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.". Key word is "Terrible". There is some scholarly arguments for why, one being King James was not fond of being referred to as being a Tyrant. When the translators of the KJV were translating it they were aware of this and came upon the word "Tyranea" meaning "Tyrant". They changed it to "Terrible". Whatever the reason it is clear the KJV translators replaced that word "Tryant" to "Terrible" throughout the KJV of the Bible. Now tell me, why does the word "Terrible" find it's way into 1 Nephi 21:25 (See Isaiah 49), when it should have been translated from the brass plates? My wife who is still an active member likes to read from the ESV version of the Bible that attempts to be the closest literal translation. Funny enough that version says "Tyrant" not "Terrible". Things that make you go Hmmmmmm... or BS!!

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

One of my favorite BOM anachronims is where Jesus gives his sermon on the mount to the Book of Mormon people in the Americas, including the line "And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain." That's where the credo "Go the extra mile" comes from. It's an anachronism because the line in Jesus's actual sermon to the Israelites refers to a requirement of Roman-occupied Judea at the time. If a Roman soldier for instance, wanted a Jew to carry an item for them, the Jews were required to carry it for one mile. Because no Romans occupied the "Book of Mormon lands" as a ruling force, the line had no meaning to the "Book of Mormon people." So that's a slip-up that Joseph Smith made while plagiarizing Bible stories to create his fictional history. The BOM is chock-full of such anachronisms.

@celicalostandfound 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521 For me this is a subtle anachronism and not a glaring one. Allow me to put on my "apologist" hat. You could say that this was a lesson Jesus learned in Jerusalem and brought a broader message of forgiveness for "whosoever". Having said that (Critic hat back on) you are right. The supposed people in the Americas would have had no idea what "going the extra mile" Roman concept was and it would have made no sense to them.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@celicalostandfound I'm glad you agree with me, but it is definitely a glaring anachronism. It clearly shows that Joseph Smith copied those words from his KJV Bible, rather than translating them from ancient golden plates. Because the alleged "Book of Mormon people" did not have a foreign army occupying their land, nor any requirement to carry a foreign soldier's burdens for a mile, the statement held no meaning for them. That is just one of many irreconciliable anchronisms in the BOM which show that it's fiction.

@Wren402 3 месяца назад

You can analyze the text like this in a literature class. I took a bible as literature class in college where we did this. It doesn’t make it true.

@mikelangley3919 3 месяца назад

Guys what about this so called deed that they found in a cave. Is there anyway of finding out if that actually exists with the name "ALMA" in it?

@barryrichins 3 месяца назад

If I, as a literature professor, were to compare Don Quijote to the Book of Mor;mon, I would say Cervantes develops well-rounded characters and the author of the Book of Mormon writes flat characters with no depth. Cervantes writes with great detail, and the reader knows where Quijote is in Spain. In the Bom, we never know where the characters are. As far as I know, their are no anachronisms in Don Quijote, yet the BOM Is full of them. Just one is enough to prove the BOM is not ancient. Don Quijote develops a sense of drama that guides to the unraveling of the story that is generally satisfying to readers. The BOM, to me, is quite hard to follow, especially the minor book's writer's words and who all the groups of people are. In the BOM, the addition of "all" the Isaiah chapter serves little more than filler and is boring to read. The BOM is full of plagiarism. There may be plagiarism in Don Quijote, and if there is, it is not obvious to me. Parts of the BOM are not well thought out. For example, If one of the air-tight Jaredite barges were to turn over while at sea, all of the food containers, water barrels or skins, bedding, human excretion pots, animal excretion, furniture, adults, children, and livestock, including bees, will tumble together. The horses and cattle will kick and lunge, and the mad bees will sting every one in the barge. Those that are not killed will die of wounds, thirst, infection or starvation by the end of the week after the turnover. The only comparison I can make of the BOM and Don Quijote is that of a comic book and a book that,second to the Bible, is the most published book in the world. I have read the book and acted in the Man of La Mancha: loved doing both.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

100 years ago, the Mormon historian BH Roberts commented on the poor depth of the BOM characters. Alexander Campbell's 1831 critique of the BOM also had a lot to say about the poor quality of the writing.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

In the Book of Mormon, all of the "good guys" are basically just cardboard characters that deliver sermons. You don't need to really know anything about them except that they "have great faith" and "love the Lord" and stuff like that...or they were bad and then repented. Ammon is a good example. Typical utterance from Ammon: "I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God." Realizing how boring his sermonoidal preach-o-tronic characters are, Joseph Smith usually tries to spice things up with miracles and superpowers that come out of nowhere as a reward for the cardboard character's exceedingly great faith and penchant for turning everything into a preaching opportunity. In Ammon's case, he was suddenly (and inexplicably) able to literally disarm 100 livestock rustlers...all by himself. It's not hard to imagine how Joseph Smith's characters would have been portrayed in a modern setting: "For behold, Ammon desired to earn money in order to feed the needy, wherefore he did obtain employment at a convenience store. One day, it came to pass that his supervisor complimented him on how diligently and expertly he had been maintaining the Slushee beverage machine. In response Ammon declared: "It is not for my glory that I maintain the Slushee machine with great diligence, but rather it is in gratitude to the most high Lord of us all, for he doth cause the Slushee beverages to be rendered unto all who can afford them insomuch as the refreshment derived therefrom can turn the minds of this stiff-necked people and remind them of the eternal refreshment of salvation that can be had by all those who repent and deliver their hearts unto the Son of Gawd in humility and with a contrite spirit." Upon hearing this Ammon's supervisor muttered: "Yeah, whatever, Ammon. Just keep up the good work with the Slushee machine...and don't forget to clean up the dog poop near the ice cream freezer."

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

A reference to olives and olive trees as "evidence" of the Book of Mormon's ancient origins? They may as well cite references to "dust" and "dirt" as "evidence". They could certainly make the same kind of video about it. "So here we are in the Holy Land and we are interviewing an expert in ancient history, who will confirm to us that in ancient times dust and dirt had great significance in this special corner of the world." (And how could Joseph Smith, an illiterate, ignorant, uneducated farm boy in New York, possibly have known of the connections that dust and dirt would have to the people who lived in the area of Jerusalem in 600 BCE? Next week, we will explore proofs showing that dust and dirt also existed in ancient times in the Americas, just as indicated by numerous passages in the Book of Mormon.)

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

The parable of the olive tree is in Paul's epistle to the Romans.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521Yes...and there is that (the 20-ton, hot-pink elephant in the room that the apologists hope people won't notice). ;o) Playing along with the starting premises of their lines of apologetic argumentation often means having to pretend that Joseph Smith never saw the Bible in his life until AFTER the Book of Mormon was published (except for that one odd incident when he was 14-years old, carefully reading and pondering the words of the Epistle of James, while somehow forgetting that he was an illiterate, uneducated farm-boy who couldn't even write his own name...and only recovering his ignorance and extreme illiteracy after being treated to a Kolobian divine projection light show out in the middle of the scraggly woods, aka the "First Hallucination" or the exceedingly amazing thing that he forgot to mention to anyone until about 10 years after it happened) .

@Havenforhealing Месяц назад

Scott didn't accept the correction of the olive grove owner's own name. Then completely ignores the correction on how olive trees grow! Dude is completely oblivious and patronizing through his entire interview.! So flippant with the only actual expert he has had on the show so far... " This is the owner.. and what not"

@ETBlair 3 месяца назад

Alma means soul in Spanish

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

That rabbi near the start of this video lost all credibility with me from the start. He says that he has attended a lot of LDS ward meetings. That indicates that he is not "all there". Hell, even MORMONS don't like attending ward meetings. :-)

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

He is an interfaith advocate and activist so that's why. I would agree it would be strange for an average Rabbi to do just on their own. Without that context, believers for sure will interpret that statement as Rabbi Joe being impressed with us and coming to feel "the spirit"

@jamestrek2570 3 месяца назад

“if anything proves the Book of Mormon is true it’s in describing ancient olive horticulture”. Bahahahha

@countrywestern2272 3 месяца назад

Yeah for me “and it came to pass” is evidence of Josephs inexperience with writing he thought that was cool and that’s what he knew at the time so he used it as much as he could. Lol.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

For me "and it came to pass" is indicative of an excessive fondness for refried beans and onions.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

Yeah, it's like when someone wants to imitate an accent, there are certain go-to phrases and words that they use. People trying to imitate a southern accent in the U.S. will keep repeating "y'all" over and over. Americans trying to imitate a British accent may overuse the word "brilliant" (or if they're going for a posh version, overuse the word "rather" ("I found it to be a rather distasteful affair")). In Joe's case, he was trying to imitate "scriptural" English and "and it came to pass" was one of his main go-to phrases for that.

@countrywestern2272 3 месяца назад

@@TEAM__POSEID0N 😂😂😂

@countrywestern2272 3 месяца назад

@@TEAM__POSEID0N so true!

@ginafrancis4950 3 месяца назад

@@TEAM__POSEID0N😂

@rickskeptical 3 месяца назад

1:01:30 "Amazingly similar to Jacob 5", yeah in that they have two words in common "olive" and "tree". How obtuse can he be? This should be a "beacon on a hill" to show how disingenuous apologists can be. This was not an oversight. Any high schooler making a documentary would have caught such a glaring diametrically opposed idea and erased it from the documentary. They are counting on the faithful using any thing at all to strengthen their faith, not presenting some sort of supporting evidence of the BoM.

@TorqueDonkeyTeethLewith 3 месяца назад

Um....... THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID! but go ahead and give the man a copy of tBoM. I'm sure the olive guy needs another fiction book for his bookshelf.

@TheSaintelias 3 месяца назад

Apologists would have been married to truth, a long time ago, if not for Rabbi Joe.

@bradschultz1799 3 месяца назад

How on earth can believing member walk away after watching this and truly feel like they just learned and witnessed evidence of this work. Putting my believing hat back on for this episode, I would have been left completely disappointed and unimpressed. Such a hard sell Scott is doing. Just a huge pile of polished crap. 💩

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Most troo believing Mormons are so indoctrinated that they think that apologetic material like this is just wonderful.

@jeremiahgreen5161 3 месяца назад

So two episodes and nothing so far?

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

Yep

@KendraAndTheLaw 3 месяца назад

BOM is bunk

@sonyalazanya7 3 месяца назад

Well i mean, c'mon, the carpenters are kinda ancient 😅

@bendyrland7213 3 месяца назад

This is insane.

@DancingQueenie 3 месяца назад

JS was a farmer and understood grafting but not olive trees. He never saw an olive tree. Never.

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

Nothing about the story requires that he did

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

LOL. Joseph Smith had a KJV Bible. That is where the parable of the olive tree is found. Joseph plagiarized a lot of stuff from the Bible, such as the story of the beheading of John the Baptist, which he lifted out of its context and inserted into a story involving a different set of characters in his Book of Ether. The fact that Smith blatantly plagiarized even one item from a prior work and altered it to place into his book proves that his entire book is a fraud.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

I think a case can be made that he had some experience with farming and understood grafting. But his main occupation was as a treasure finder who understood grifting.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

The parable of the olive tree is in Paul's epistle to the Romans in the New Testament. Joseph Smith owned a KJV Bible. So maybe you could deduce where Joseph Smith got the story from.

@utahagentz 3 месяца назад

Is Scripture Central paid by The LDS Church? Curious.

@user-gb9if8gl4s 3 месяца назад

Derren Brown demonstrates how people of different cultures and faiths can all claim divine confirmation by "converting" a woman in front of your eyes. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6-xBFjQjFG4.html This Fear and Faith series episode has the woman's story scattered between other segments, with the moment of divine communion happening just after the 36 min mark. What do you think?

@aw9680 3 месяца назад

The body language of the apologists says more than their words. They are squirming and averting their eyes.

@claudetterush1086 3 месяца назад

C'mon, give Brother Joseph a break.

@Ana-hz5fw 3 месяца назад

Scott is such a shill.

@TEAM__POSEID0N 3 месяца назад

He's a thespian.

@devinhildebrandt2709 3 месяца назад

I always love listening to a couple of unqualified individuals call hundreds of works of scholarship wrong.

@MormonDiscussion 3 месяца назад

scholarship? which point did we make that seems false to you?

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

Can you give us a list of qualified scholars who affirm that the Book of Mormon is an authentic history of ancient people?

@LatterDayPup 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521Gonna be hard when your definition of “qualified” all hinges on wether they already agree with you.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@LatterDayPup LOL. If the Book of Mormon is an authentic history of a group of ancient Hebrews who occupied the Americas for 1000 years, that should be true for EVERYBODY---not just for believers in one minor religious sect. If the BOM is authentic, there should be as much physical evidence for those people's existence as there is for the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Code of Hammurabai, the Epic of Gilgamesh, the ancient Norse sagas, and similar groups. There is no question among scholars that all of those cultures existed. We know their cities, and we have ancient artifacts found in those cities. We have artifacts of a 1000-year old Norse settlement in Newfoundland, even though that settlement may have only comprised a few dozen people and only lasted a year or two. So where can we learn about the artifacts of that huge BOM civilzation in legitimate scholarly works? Why are Mormons the only people on planet earth who believe that that ancient civilization existed?

@TalismanianDevil 3 месяца назад

The Liahona is a non-starter, friend. Brass can’t be used in a compass. It’s an alloy of copper and zinc that throws off the magnetic field of the entire instrument. See “Lenz’s Law”. Lehi wouldn’t have made it out of the Gulf of Aqaba.

@tgrogan6049 3 месяца назад

How much did they pay the Rabbi?

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

A thousand shekels.

@amazinmaven 3 месяца назад

He is an interfaith advocate

@KendraAndTheLaw 3 месяца назад

Three bagels and a salmon locks with cream cheese. But I'm not judging. Those are quite hard to resist.

@bartonbagnes4605 3 месяца назад

10 minutes in and you give your first "evidence" against what is being said, and no pointing out at the 8 minute mark that he is using an unbiased and unrehearsed witness, doesn't count as a evidence against, it only strengthens the evidence for The Book Of Mormon. If this is the best you can do, you need a new line of work or hobby. A blunder is an accurate description of your attempts to discredit The Book Of Mormon.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

LOL. Can you give us a list of qualified scholars who affirm that the Book of Mormon is an authentic history of ancient people?

@bartonbagnes4605 3 месяца назад

@@randyjordan5521 I could name lots of scholars at least as qualified, and you would reject them all, whether they are members or not. It is common in science to cancel anyone who suggests anything that doesn't fit the current official theories. It took the death of the head of the Smithsonian, who refused to accept anything older than 4,000B.C, that included Clovis First. And the experts continue to deny until so much evidence builds up that it becomes more embarrassing to continue to do so. The experts said that the natives in the Americas were all primitive savages, until complex Temples and cities were discovered in Mesoamerica, and later all over the Americas, the most recent being those in the Amazon. Time and time again, The Book Of Mormon gets proven accurate, and the critiques get proven wrong. Of the original 205 Anachronisms, that's things said not to exist when and where something says, only 32 have yet to be proven. That's on par with the Anachronisms of the Bible. And that's with almost all archeological work finished in the Middle East, while only 1% has been done in the Americas and only one tenth of that is fully done. So lots more to discover, and everything so far has only worked in favor of The Book Of Mormon.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@bartonbagnes4605 "I could name lots of scholars at least as qualified, and you would reject them all, whether they are members or not." OK, sport. Give us a list of non-Mormon scholars of American archaeology/anthropology who agree that the BOM is an authentic history of ancient Americans.

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@bartonbagnes4605 "The experts said that the natives in the Americas were all primitive savages, until complex Temples and cities were discovered in Mesoamerica, and later all over the Americas, the most recent being those in the Amazon." Those ancient ruins began to be found and documented first by John Lloyd Stephens in the 1830s. Which ancient cities, temples, etc. which have been uncovered and researched have been proven to be "Book of Mormon sites"?

@randyjordan5521 3 месяца назад

@@bartonbagnes4605 " Time and time again, The Book Of Mormon gets proven accurate, and the critiques get proven wrong." That is a statement based on wishful thinking and religious belief, not actual fact. That is why I asked you for a list of non-Mormon scholars who concur that the BOM is authentic. If there are none, then the BOM is fiction and is merely a religious work, not a historical one. If there was actual physical evidence to support the BOM, Mormon apologists wouldn't have to rely on these silly arguments such as those mocked in this video. Just a couple of days ago, I watched an apologetic video titled "HEARTLAND ARTIFACTS - Many Witnesses" which listed several items which the host said were evidence for the BOM. Every single item he mentioned has been determined to be a hoax. When Book of Mormon apologists here in 2024 resort to rehashing material that has been debunked for decades, that means that they have no actual evidence to support the book.