Who Factually Saw the Gold Plates? Part Deux: A Marvelous Work And A Blunder [ML 186] 

Thanks to Dan Vogel for all the information, insights and expertise as always. Thank you Maven. You are an inspiration to us and you will be missed. Best wishes.

So good, guys. This was an episode for the ages. The epiphany moment for me was when you went through the commonalities of group hallucinations and the experience of the three witnesses and checked every single box. Vogel’s emphasis on Joseph Smith using the power of suggestion is right on the money. He had repeatedly primed these highly suggestable witnesses with statements during the Book of Mormon dictation and his revelations to have a visionary experience. Vogel’s other incredible point is that we can’t be sure they all saw the exact same thing, because once witnesses are able to collude they can contaminate each other’s memories. It’s interesting that in the recorded statements Whitmer is the only one that mentions a table with a bunch of stuff on it. The segment at the end where you and one of the callers were sharing visionary experiences was mind-blowing. People need to understand that visionary experiences are rather common, but there’s no objective evidence they are in any way real.

It's always great when Dan joins.

So...about 200 years ago (beginning in 1823), a guy named Joseph Smith began working on a project to create a book that he hoped would sell well when published. The book would have a fantastical origin story involving glowing angels, ancient Hebrews in America, gold plates, magic rocks and so on. To help sell the story, Joe enlisted the assistance of certain close relatives and associates, who were already invested in the project in one way or another, to be "witnesses" to certain evidence of the fantastical origin story. He prepared a statement for them all to ratify, in his words, not theirs. Ultimately, all of the "witnesses", except for his brothers, had disagreements with Joseph Smith...particularly after it became clear that he didn't want to share power and profits with them in the church business that he started up after it became clear that book sales were not going to amount to much. Ultimately, they all stopped following Joseph Smith (again, except for his brothers), essentially declaring him to be dishonest and a false and fallen prophet in the process. You really couldn't ask for a firmer faith foundation than this. Thank Gawd for the Three Witlesses and the Eight Witlesses.

Maven, that was a lot of profound insight. You will be missed, and please keep us posted on your future endeavors.

Wow Bill. Motorcycle story. Everybody wear your helmet. Even if you're riding a bicycle!!!!!! Thanks for sharing....❤❤🎉🎉

Oh no!! Maven I will follow you anywhere ❤❤

Missing you already, Maven. You are a powerful, loving, voice. Wishing you all the best.

Maven!!! You are one of my favorite pieces of this show and will be missed!!! ❤❤❤

Yay Maven🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉we will always ❤ you. You bring a lot to the table. Go Maven

Love you beautiful Maven.

By Mavin! You were a great asset to the show, and made your mark on post Mormon world!

Maven 💜 thank you!

❤ Dan. Gift of the ages.

Bill, please read Mark Twain's "The Mesmerizer". Twain in the end, after telling his mother the truth, she still didn't believe he wasn't psychic. Humorous and sad essay.

There is no way Moroni could go head-to-head with Tom Bombadil.

Love Bill’s point about the hypnotist (Joseph Smith) having experience via treasure digging. I think his experience selecting the suggestible subject from the skeptical ones is evidenced in many of the characters, dynamics and ideas found in the Book of Mormon, beginning with Lamen and Lemuel. Joseph condemns their hardheartedness and makes it clear that their skepticism is the reason they don’t enjoy the visions and the things of god that he (Nephi/Joseph) enjoys.

We love you Maven and best wishes.❤

Love the Cedar City Shakespeare Festival.

Yea!! A visit from Dan Vogel. 🎉❤😊

Noo Maven! This is super sad, you’re SUCH a wonderful addition & bring the woman’s perspective that has helped us feel seen. You will be *greatly missed.

Helmet not legally required at 21+ in Utah. I'm told the bigger your beard and louder your bike, the less helmet you need... 🤔 Wear your d4mn helmet anyways!

Imagine being a “historian” and taking people on a tour of events that never happened

maven deserved a better sendoff

RFM have you been to the Shakespearean Festival in Cedar City!? If not, it would be such a joy for you! It is an incredible festival!

Thanks!

Maven is leaving!? This is unfortunate for ML, because the female viewpoint is so needed. I kept thinking, even in this episode, how much I wished Maven would chime in and tell the boys how juvenile the "spank the monkey" jokes are to women.

33:04 and look how Joseph Smith took those people falling to the ground in revivals and put that aspect into the book of Mormon. In my 5+ decades in the Mormon church I have never seen anyone fall to the ground.

Well I levitated. Beat that!

In college my friend was taking printmaking, and her thumb went numb just from carving a wooden printing block. Definitely could believe this theory, if it wasn't from the rings maybe it was from the etchings!

Love you Maven!! You’re amazing!! I wish you so much happiness❤ We will stay in touch

Maven, I will miss you! So many things you have said were SO relatable to me personally. I admire your passion and bravery. Take care ❤

For all these supposed visions and artifacts that the witnesses saw, all we have as a tangible item relating to the BOM is a chocolate colored “Seer Stone”! Upon that ROCK is the LDS church built!

1:45:57 I was in Brazil at the same time as the caller. The largest territorial mission in the world at that time (85-87) was Brazil, Brasilia Mission lead by Demar Staniscia.

Thank you for all you do, Maven. Best luck no matter where you go.

Back in 1982, the leaders of my high school’s Young Life group held a prayer meeting which bestowed the Gift of Speaking In Tongues to 10 new converts + myself (an Unbeliever). The leaders asked if I still believed I could demonstrate Speaking In Tongues without them bestowing God’s Gift. I said, “Yes.” They said, “Impossible! Now you are making sounds that the Human voice cannot utter without God’s Gift.” I said, “It’s just gibberish nonsense.” They said, “It just seems that way to you because you have not received the Gift of Interpretation. One of the leaders, Joanna, believed she was speaking a form of Aramaic, but she would have to try to find some way to corroborate that because no one had spoken it for over one thousand years. My best friend, Jeff, believed he had been Gifted the ability to speak Latin. (Spanish was our 2nd language.) During my lunch period, I would sit in on a Latin class, so I knew his gibberish was not only not a true language, but also certainly was not anywhere close to being Latin. But…all of those young ladies and young men (17-18) emphatically stated that they could speak the Lord’s Language. We now know that the Human brain is still developing until around age 25. Even in the 20th and 21st centuries, young men and women fervently believing in magical thinking is not surprising - in the 19th century, decades before Darwin’s scientific discoveries… magical thinking and folk magic were more common than the scientific method.

Bill have lzughed so hard when my daughter and goddaughter were talking so much trash I had to be helped off my chair and carried to bed. Laughed myself to good old sleep😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

A question for Dan on his hypothesis that Joseph made the plates: If he had to sneak all the materials out to the woods anyway, why would he give himself the pressure of actually making the plates while others are waiting for him to emerge from the woods? If it’s like a magic trick why would he not have his trick prepared beforehand? Honest question. I appreciate how well the hypothesis fits and the questions that it answers. I just think there are several stories that are better explained by an absence of physical plates. It leaves me torn on what I believe.

Gotta get Bryce Blakenagel in on this discussion with his psycodelic theories in Kirtland....

Still don't understand monkey references. Sources please somebody??? Where do I dig next???😮😮😮

Maven does a great job of projecting her daddy issues on to all the members of the male sex of the species.👍 Also her testimony voice as she thanks people at the end of the nice touch.🙃 And of course, we can't forget Bill's Bishop/Counselor meeting ending voice, that's just the cherry on the top. 🍒

Excellent show the past two weeks guys! I've really appreciated all the information and have found myself feeling more and more anger toward the lds church for all the lies they've told. Now I get to process it all, which isn't easy, but necessary. Thank you for your part in my deconstruction. As for Maven's last words, while I've appreciated her viewpoint on several things in the past, it's sad, to say the least, for her blaming everyone in support of keeping babies alive when it's been the choice of the woman to not prevent pregnancy from happening in the first place. Yes, of course, if a woman is raped, endured incest, or her life is in jeopardy from the pregnancy, these are all valid reasons to terminate a pregnancy. But to just kill a baby growing inside a woman just because she selfishly doesn't want it when she fully new that if she engaged those procreative parts of her, that this could happen, that is just wrong. And it's a shame Maven thinks it's okay to kill babies and she blames people who are in support of saving these victims from their death, yet she claims, in the same conversation she's against "blaming" victims. That baby didn't have a choice to be created by the mother choosing to have sex with a man and now she supports taking that baby's rights to live away, therefore making them the ultimate victim. That is wrong-wrong-wrong!!! I'm glad it's her last show b/c I'm tired of hearing nonsense like this for sure and I'm glad Bill doesn't fully agree with her.

2:16:24 this isn't perhaps the best articulation of the anti-abortion stance... ironically, the sentiment expressed a few minutes before about having a more robust perspective on personhood is what anti-abortion folks are about; also, treating female perspectives on marriage, abortion, and even patriarchy as a monolith isn't accurate or fair

Maven seems to only be able to strawman the pro-life position. Perhaps if she tried to understand their true position, she might not see the world/men in such a negative way. Also, it’s hard to be morally lectured at by someone who believes killing a baby at 9 months of pregnancy is okay.

I wonder why, Bill, you felt the need to say what you said after Maven spoke? It sounded like you minimized her statement. Consider the optics: white privileged male who is her boss, cutting her off with your final say on the matter. Just consider.