Hemi 5.7 MDS delete, Lessons Learned 

That’s awesome! I am glad this helped you out! Thanks for the comment!

Started the MDS delete on my brother's hemi last night. Glad I watched this video. When I get the valve covers on I'm going to do a compression test on all cylinders just so I don't have to backtrack. Thanks for the video.

Did you replace cam bearings

There are small things people do with Tow/Haul mode and such that people claim with turn off ads while driving. You can also turn it off with a tuner, in my case the cam was already damaged, so I did the delete while in there.

A Pulsar in line engine tuner gives the option to turn off tat 4cylinder option and it just plugs straight in

I Have an in-line engine tuner that turns it off but it was not cheap (Pulsar)

There are easy ways to disable it such as tow/haul or using the gear limiter. However, the main issue with doing that is that it doesn't address the oiling issue, especially at idle. By removing the solenoids, it increases the oil flow and pressure to the lifters 100% of the time. With the mds, the higher pressure is only applied to the lifters during mds activation which is what causes them to work.

@@secretdad544 l

Thanks for the info! That’s good to know!

How come no check engine light for a misfire when this happens??

Thanks for sharing.

I hope it was helpful.

@@wheelinoutwest It was, I’ve been avoiding newer Mopar gas engines for a while because of the horrific reputation of MDS so I stuck with Diesels. But I wanted a lighter commuter and heard you could delete MDS. No one else covered the lessons learned with this swap. So once again thanks!

Thats good to know, there have been quite a few people have this same issue, hopefully it helps someone going through a similar issue.

Good luck with your project!

Man get it checked first. This cam issue is blown waaaay the hell out of proportion . There are many well documented high mileage hemi rams .

Thanks for the feedback, multiple others have stated having the same issue as well, so I am glad that you got something from it!

It's because when you disable the MDS, the lifter ports with the MDS lifters are now not pressurized causing poor lifter/roller lubrication and rubes down the cam and can cause a bent pushrod.....

Thanks, I appreciate it!

Thanks!

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the comment, glad it was helpful!

Thanks for the input, the holders would be a great idea!!

I tried the rubber fuel line holders...didn't work too well, so I simply tightened and kept checking and repositioning the rods as I went along until they didn't pop out and the rockers were on tight.

@@DL101ca yeah it’s not fun anyway you do it really. If I ever have to do one again I’m lifting the cab off the truck to work on the engine. It don’t take long and the A/C can stay connected. Given you have a hoist. It’s worth me being able to see what I’m doing better. Plus the rads and fans suck to mess with one less thing of you lift the cab

Thanks for watching!

@@wheelinoutwest your welcome very much

We were able to get ours running, so there is still hope for yours! Good luck!

How did it go Zeke? I'm not too far away from diving in

@@Spoofaged it was honestly not bad. I was really impressed how easy it was to work on this engine. It is up and running. Just getting all the parts in was the pain. Sent the heads off to get redone. Installed everything and it’s running. I was about 1500 bucks in. Hope it last at least another 20k miles lol. Good luck

@@zekemontgomery6678 that's good to hear. I made mine a bit easier to work on when I put the electric fan in. Freed up a ton of room and actually cools when I'm sitting in traffic again, so win win. Putting some shorty headers in today to get rid of the exhaust leak so I can actually hear how bad mine is. Trying to squeeze another month or 2 out of it so when I go to do it, it's not 100 degrees outside

Thats interesting, thanks for sharing.

Nice, glad you could find it!

As soon as I corrected the issue, of the pushrod not seated it ran perfectly the next time I fired it up.

I’m pretty sure that the “relearn” thing is a little exaggerated. I had to replace my engine wiring harness and went through almighty hell looking for ANY cracks, shorts,breaks, etc on my original after doing the same on the used replacement, as no OEMs exist. I found NONE on either and when I first fired it up

I just finished up a cam/lifters install on a hemi. Before I attempted it. Just like you. Research. Then bought a kit. I did not do a delete. Customers choice. Before I attempted to just fix the lifter issues. I pulled the lifters and cam. Found cam was getting signs of damage. So a new cam and lifters. I found torqued specs all over. But I had to sort thru the ones who were very unclear on instructions. I think many assumptions are taken that people who take on a job like this is simple to everyone. I took time to organize my parts in bags. Then the tireless job of cleaning parts with my pressure washer. The customers truck was very very dirty. Top end. But I got my parts and started my task. I learned the heads are only right and left only. After trying to reinstall the exhaust manifolds. And I thought I had it nailed. My stupid mistake. Bought new gaskets and bolts. Hunckerd down. Got the job done. Before I fired up the engine. I turned the engine over several times by hand to watch each of the valves were moving and remembered the short push rods were the intake. I used a mirror to line each one up. Even though...the very last exhaust push rod was not moving. I loosen up the exhaust train. Reset the push rod and retested it. Now all my intake and exhaust valves were moving. I button it up. Then I started the engine. I ran it for a minute or so. Making sure my oil pressure came up first. After about 5 starts. I finally got the engine up and running. It took about 30 minutes to finally warm up. Constantly checking oil and water temperature and levels. Checking for leaks. I didn't drive the truck until about 2 hours of checking and rechecking. Then my test drive. But no more ticking noises. After my customer got the truck. I went back to see why my lifters were stuck ? I took apart the bad lifter on #1 exhaust. After 255k on the engine. Just normal failed lifters and cam going bad. The owners wife didn't want to give up her truck. So they are glad they made the choice.

That sounds like a good deal!

Don’t even have to take the exhaust manifolds off then

I agree it’s best out of the vehicle, which I typically do when I am working on the bottom end. However, this motor in a grand Cherokee is very tight, the bolts to the trans are a huge pita to get to. I dident feel the extra effort to pull it completely out, was worth it for this project.

No, it does have some different tunes, but I just kept it all on the 87 octane tune. There is a tune for 91, but am not sure if it adds much HP.

It’s 3 options to get rid of the mds is to Buy the Diablo tune or get it properly tuned or just do the complete mds delete…

I have heard of that. In this instance the damage was already done.

Actually on my first hemi head gasket job I had one of the exhaust pushrods in the wrong hole 😲 could not figure out why it wouldn't stay running

I agree about piston 1 being TDC and the cam at 12 o clock. I am sure my timing was fine the first time, but since it would not idle, that was the first thing that came to mind, I never thought the pushrod would have been the problem.

Easy to just check by turning the crank by hand before starting it to make sure pistons aren't hitting the valves.

@@DL101ca Thats a good point, I did that without spark plugs the first time, to be sure nothing was going to hit.

Do you think if your one tooth off on the crank the valves would hit?

I just left them unplugged, and zip tied them to secure them to something.

Yes, I did have to move the A/C lines out of the way, you need all the room you can get! Thanks!

Well, I had already pulled everything off the front of the motor, to recheck the timing, and everything was fine.

Thanks!

I left the original pump, but I should have at least replaced it.

The pressure can't be increased because the pump is crank driven. It has its own regulated pressure based on rpm

When I bought the kit, it was around $1200 to $1400.

If you are pulling the intake and replacing one, you might as well replace them all. They do not come out easy, and require some effort, the plastic becomes fragile, and they break apart.

I would run an engine oil cleaner, change the oil and filter and run with the new oil for awhile to see if the code comes back. The solenoids can get clogged and will be slow to deactivate. I would even change the oil twice before attempting to change the solenoids.

I am not familiar with the Trinity, I used the diablsport. It was very easy to shut off with the Diablo sport. I would do a quick search on google.

I believe it did a good job catching it. Its been a few months of daily use, and the oil looks good, and the motor runs smooth.

I took my time with it, and really cleaned the heads well, plus I was working with my niece and had her removing bolts, etc. I think it could be done in a long weekend. The problem is the getting to certain bolts, that are time consuming to pull off. Because I ran into issues, it took me a lot longer than it should have.

No, I did not notice low oil pressure, it all seemed to be pretty good.

Mine is good cold, but warm at idle runs around 16. Prolly gonna do the hellcat pump when I do the mds delete cam and lifter swap. Supposedly it fixes the low volume/pressure at idle, but my rings might be getting worn a bit but not really interested in a full rebuild just yet

That’s interesting, if the cam pin is breaking, something is not happy🤔. These motors are pretty picky about timing, so if it was running good, but still broke a pin, I am not sure.

No, you turn off the mds with the controller supplied with the kit, and you do not get a check engine light. I am not sure about passing emissions with the kit?

What kit did you use bro I’m trying to find a non mds kit on my 2013 charger 5.7 or would the ams racing kit fit my car as well?

It’s hard to say, but I have heard the repair from the dealer would be around 5k.

@@wheelinoutwest That's a whole another vehicle..😬😬😬

@@runit5772 you ain't buying nothing reliable for 5k lol

@@kenbass346 I drove 6 years and about 80k miles in 2001 Jeep Cherokee that cost me $1000. Only thing I did was put tires on it, and a window motor. Oh and I still have it and it's still running with 302k on the odometer, but the AC EVAP and the heater coil need replaced since about 3k miles or so ago. Now I'm here watching a video about swapping a cam in my newer, way more expensive, less miles ram.

@@Spoofaged today ment

Hey what’s up , I have a 2012 ram 1500 5.7 , had the same issue with the MDS system, I did replace the liffters and cam shaft, use a non MDS lifters with the original cam shaft (buy new one from mopar) and u just need to turn off the MDS system with a Diablo tune, take out the solenoids that activate the MDS and use plugs (buy in amazon or eBay) locate on top off the block ( below the intake) and it should run just fine ( turn off the MDS system before replace the parts) I hope this information helps u

Not sure, but I would think you would have to delete the mds solenoids as well, hence the tune.

However I change the oil every 4000-5000 miles without hesitation

That’s great!

Yes, I had read about that.

Thanks! Good luck with your project!

Yes, you just take the middle bolt out, and it all comes off as one assembly. I installed it on the new cam, it only fits one way, then install and torque to spec.

Hi Jake, to be clear, you already have swapped out the cam and lifters, or you were going to? If you look at my Cam in the video, it was wore down pretty bad, when it wears down the metal would end up in your engine, and hopefully the filter catches it, before going through the bearings. Its hard to say if it caused any other damage with out taking the engine apart and having a good look at it.

@@wheelinoutwest hey I haven’t changed the cam or the lifters yet cause that’s what failed, I took out my mds solenoids and they are clean also I took out my vvt solenoid and it’s also clean, I am going to take out my oil pan to check it out, I am thinking of just flushing out the engine and putting a new cam and lifters in it. Is that a good idea or just get a new motor ?

@@jakebowmen764 What you listed is what I did, and it has been working just fine. After I ran mine for a few miles, I changed the oil filter again, and then changed it again after a few months. Mine has been working fine, my niece uses it to commute around town. The MDS kit is pretty reasonable, and I also changed the water pump, battery, harmonic balancer, serpentine belt and some other things, so it cost me in total around $2000. Crate motors are great, but they seem to range from around 4 to 7 K, and used motors could have the same issue. I guess it depends on how much you want to spend, but my bottom end on the motor did not seem to be damaged.

@@wheelinoutwest Thank you!

The mds delete is a kit, that removes the solenoids for operating the mds, and replaces the cam, lifters, etc. the kit is pretty reasonable from AMS racing.

@@wheelinoutwest could i get the stage 3 cam off texas speed and the mds delete from ams

I never replaced the springs, I used what was in the motor, the kit came with everything I needed.

Thank you very much!

There are some videos on line, that show how it works, it through ports in the block.

That’s to mechanically delete the mds, you can shut it off electronically with a tuner. I only did this because I had to tear into the engine and replace the cam anyway.

@@wheelinoutwest That's what I thought, your video kind of threw me for a loop, didn't realize you were replacing the cam regardless. Are there any risks just deleting the MDS with a tuner? I'm a little nervous about it to be honest.

@@mplslawnguy3389 Not the I am aware of. The oiling system should work just fine. I would suggest reading some online forums and such, there is some great info about it. There is also a video that illustrates how the mds system works, that is really good too.

I don’t see why not, I just used the suggested oil.

Yes, you just put it back to the stock location, which is pretty easy once you read the manual, or watch a video.

Thanks for the replay one last question if I take off the passenger head can I check the cam from there to look for damage or is it hidden? I am more of a body man than mechanic

Can I inspect the cam when I take off the passenger side head?

It came out around 2005, if it has mds it would have a different cam, etc. you would have to remove the intake, and look at the valley, to see if it has the block off plugs, or the mds solenoids.

@@wheelinoutwest well I guess I’ll never know, I’m not taking off the intake. My Jeep runs perfect, I don’t want to mess with it. I’m going to take my VIN number to the dealer and see if they can tell me. Thanks.

Yes, in this case, the cam was already damaged and and had to be replaced anyway.

I was replacing the cam and lifters, as they were damaged from a failed lifter. While I was in there, it was just as easy to delete the MDS.

@@wheelinoutwest How many miles did the engine go before the lifter failed?

@@tone3560 Around 130,000

Sorry if it was not clear, the pushrod was not seated correctly, so the valve was not opening. I pulled off the rocker assembly put it all back together and it worked great.

@@wheelinoutwest thankyou so much for the onfo my friend

I had the same problem when I replaced athena cam in my Ram but with # 3. The head design makes it really easy to put the pushrod in the wrong position so that it isn't seated in the lifter but is in a crevice of the head itself. After you torque down the rocker, it will hold the valve open.

@@jamesthomas7977 Thanks for sharing! It seems like an easy thing to have happen!

The reason I replaced them, was because the bad lifter took out the cam lobe, so I had to tear into everything anyway, so it was a good time to replace it all anyway.

Thats quite possible, it was the furthest back cylinder, so it looked like it was in place, but is was not.

Thanks, it has still been running good. I think the Hemi is a good motor overall.

I believe it was around $1200.

I have heard numbers around 5-6 thousand, but I am not sure.

​@@wheelinoutwestThanks

I used the Diablosport tuner, and it is able to shut off the mds on any PCM, mine was not unlocked. But you should verify with Diablosport to make sure it would work for you.

@@wheelinoutwest Thankyou for the info. I will try that. Subbed to your channel.

@@reddog3544 Appreciate it!

@@reddog3544 I think 2015 and up dodge locked the pcm so you can’t tune it yourself

@@nickrobinson9503 You are right Nick

I would replace the soloenoids with the block off, the solenoids activate the mds, if you leave them in, I would be worried they could starve the lifter of oil.

@@wheelinoutwest Thank you WOW, I have done so not sure why it won’t start thinking timing chain at this point.. Also getting a lot of error codes P3434 P3401 P2323.

@@rolankelly9683 sounds similar to what I ran into, if you have a compression tester, I would check each cylinder while cranking it. That is how I found one of the pushrods was not seated.

@@wheelinoutwest Thanks WOW I will definitely try that.

Things are good, the vehicle is back at my brother in laws, but last I heard it’s still hood. I think it worth doing, as long as the bottom end of the motor is still good, which it should be.

*still good

Thanks!

Not sure, I used the tuner with the kit.

Thanks, they can be a real pain!

Does 6.1 cam gives extra hp ? Or it is just non mds cam same as 5.7 ?

The 6.1 is a non vvt engine, you will lose hp putting a non vvt cam in a vvt engine if it’s a 2009 or newer. If it’s the older 5.7 then it’s ok after new lifters and valve springs. The article talks about the head and block differences between non vvt and vvt. www.enginebuildermag.com/2019/08/unlocking-the-mysteries-of-the-5-7l-gen-iii-hemi/

With the conversion to VCT, the cams for these engines employ a completely different cam core assembly with a much longer front cam bearing journal that includes two annulus grooves cut into the journal to supply oil to the phaser mounted on the front of the cam that controls the VCT. Of course, this means that early cams cannot be interchanged with 2009 and later versions as they physically will not fit the block. So this negates any idea of using a more aggressive 6.4L Hemi cam in an early 5.7L truck engine, for example. However, all VCT engines use the same cam journal sizing so these cams can be interchanged which offers opportunities to place a more aggressive cam in 5.7L truck engine from a passenger car application. This means, of course, avoiding the use of any MDS camshafts. In the early ‘03-‘08 5.7L and SRT 6.1L engines, the camshaft is retained with a small 4-bolt plate and the timing chain assembly also used a specific tensioner and guide system. This was necessary because of the greater distance between the cam and crankshaft. With the redesign in 2009 and VCT, the front cam retainer plate became larger, retained with four bolts, and the tensioner and guide system was also changed. These systems are not interchangeable as they are specific to either early or late cylinder blocks. www.holley.com/blog/post/everything_you_wanted_to_know_about_gen_iii_hemi_engines/

You can try to secure them off to the side, but I just left them disconnected. I turned off the MDS on the Diablosport tuner, and have not received a code.

It can't be removed as the Cam sensor is part of it, leave them unplugged, won't bother anything.

@@wheelinoutwest Job successful. My hemi is now running with zero codes. 25miles so far. thanks for vid and info

@@gregm90 that is great news, glad to hear!

If you just get the diablo tuner before anything goes bad and delete the mds you shouldn't need to replace any parts correct or am I wrong?

I am glad to hear!

My Niece was driving this mainly around town, I have not checked the MPG yet, but if I do, I will update you.

Thanks!

I just ordered it from AMS racing. They have different options.

I am not sure, I have never heard that.

@@wheelinoutwest It's sold in Mexico.

Manual trans does NOT utilize mds

I am sorry, I am not for sure.

Many people believe the mds causes oiling issues. My cam was already ruined, so while replacing it, I deleted the mds as well.

The kits range in price, but mine was about $1100. The kit took me longer than it should, since I ran into problems, I was not in any hurry, so it spent a month in my garage, I was also teaching my niece, which took more time. If someone focused on it, and did not have any distractions, they could do it much faster.

@@wheelinoutwest nice , what exactley mds delete does ? I just got a jeep with HEMI last year , it is 2005 with over 180.000 miles , should i do it ?

Yes, I did. This was not a step by step video, , but more of a lessons learned, on how easy it is to misplace a pushrod.

@@wheelinoutwest I was told that soaking the lifter would stop it from starting have u ever heard of that?

@@rolankelly9683 I had not heard that. There is much debate online about soaking, but it seems to be the preferred method. Another thing people do is to prime them by cranking the engine, and not firing it.

@@wheelinoutwest Thank you for your spouse it was a first for me too.. But you soak yours and it work so I’m good with that.. 👍

@@wheelinoutwest So do you have error codes showing for the deactivated solenoids when you replaced with caps?

Well, I inherited the vehicle, don’t know the history on it. It’s good yours has lasted.

I hope you found it helpful! Thanks for the comment!

I am in at the end of installing a new crate motor in my 2007 Charger RT. I put the solenoid delete plugs in place. Will it run right without a tune? Or will it run like crap? Thanks guys.

@@Barrylickin I’ve read that it depends! So I finish doing the 2015 Ram and I turned it on and it ran fine ! It’s been a month and still running good

@@Barrylickin if you have questions message me , I couldn’t tune the 2015 ram with Hp tunner it pcm has to be unlocked first so soon when I get the unlocked pcm I’ll delete the MSD but the truck has been running really good

Bummer, how far along are you?

I did what you did a compression check cylinder 8 pressure was low. It was a bent, pushrod it was not in the lifter I got it running great now

Thank you so much for the video it really helps me

Yep

I do agree this is a widespread issue on the 5.7, but this was a donor vehicle for my niece.

The 6.4 also have this issue the only ones now that don't have this issue is the hellcats cause they do not have MDS

6.4 same problem 😕

@@laszlogaspar1244 Sorry to hear!

Cool, thanks

You could do that, the kit also comes with the mds solenoid delete, and cam shaft as well.

We were given this vehicle in a non running status, for our niece. The kit for the MDS delete included everything I needed to repair it, I did not own the vehicle, or no the maintenance history on it prior to installing the kit. Although my sister in law who owned the vehicle prior, was pretty meticulous about oil changes, she owned it since it was new.

Thanks for sharing, I agree they are a good motor.

the new RT Durango with Tow N Go package can tow 8700 Pounds

I have a 07 also I'm slowly working on

I have a 09 ram 1500 5.7 over 300000 never had a bolt turned on it.

I just bought a 09 aspen what all did you get to rebuild it the engine I wanna kick some dust up 🙂