Homocysteine Update, What's Optimal For Vitamin B12? 

Could you please provide studies? I've been trying to fix my MCV for 8 years without success, so this helps me a lot.

Thanks Ben B!

Thanks @sandy-qw4np!

Thanks IblisTheMage!

Yep, that's on the to-do measurement list, at least for diet vs blood levels.

Hi ilmo strömberg, and thanks! cronometer.com (not sponsored!), and then I enter the macro, micro, and total food amounts into an Excel sheet in conjunction with blood test data.

Thanks MichalS1984Y. For some reason RU-vid deletes external comments (but not mine!?) that have links in them, but I saw your other comment in my email. It's not coffee, as I rarely drink that (1x/month or less). It's not niacin or fiber, which I closely monitor and aren't strongly correlated with homocysteine. In contrast, higher levels of omega 6, and a higher 6:3 ratio are correlated with higher Hcy in my data. For my next blood test, I'll likely raise (I'm still exploring all the correlations) O3 and reduce O6 to see if this affects Hcy. It's possible I may not need B12 or higher protein to lower it, we'll see... btw, I have a more recent video for homocysteine! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-MOCQa1epzlg.html

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thank you Mike! I have watched it already. It is excellent. Cheers! Michal Sporek

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Another question I forgot to ask - is there any scientific evidence about microbiota link to ellevated homocysteine levels? I'm on a path to optimize my result and thinking about what options I might have. I have ordered a test for MTHFR mutation as this might have impact.

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Continuing the conversation about homocysteine levels - I have made a genetic test myself to figure out today the MTHFR gene mutation (C667T). I guess I'm on a right path with this. Decided to go on a supplmentation of metylated forms of B group vitamins. Will see how it looks in 8-12 weeks from now. Expecting some improvement.

What is your blood sugar like?

According to research quoted by Dr. Stanfield, we must eat fruits whole, not the juice alone.

Yes, great points. I'm thinking about a Part II for why higher blood levels of B12 are associated with an increased mortality risk, including some of that data.

No. Look at and control for all confounding factors and variables and b12 itself has no increased risk, in fact it's protective. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-KjDYAyr8K6w.html

Beef liver has to be the best

Thanks BobJ357, I use methylcobalamin from Jarrow (not sponsored).

Matjes. DHA/EPA/B12 with very little saturated fats and cholesterol and without Neu5Gc. 2 ounces a day.

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thanks Michael! 👍

@@erastvandoren Zinc and selenium also.

Hey Al Sharif, as I mentioned in the video, B12 seems to have the biggest impact. Also, protein intake (see this video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-y6joAp_UghQ.html)

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thank you

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I am vegan, so this subject matters for me. Based on what I've read, B2 and intake of methionine matter, too. And, i just saw this on a 1-minute search: Conversion of homocysteine to SAMe requires adequate levels of folate, vitamin B12, vitamin B2, zinc, TMG (trimethylglycine from choline), and magnesium. What I gathered, was that, in my life, it seemed wiser to greatly lessen my methionine intake and/or to balance it well with lysine (I think it is nearly a 1:3 ratio...1: 2,8, to be more exact). For me, getting rid of most flour is how I do it (I am already vegan, so, of course no animal products). I am not a scientist, but got most of my info from scientific studies and i am a detail freak. I have not got my homocysteine levels checked, though. Another idea (one I'd like to implement myself) is to add choline by adding liquid lecithin to homemade sauces. When I worked at Joe's Crab Shack, i read the coleslaw sauce's ingredients and liquid lecithin was a main ingredient - it makes it thicker. It isn't that cheap. 30 years ago in NYC i paid $8 for a small bottle. But, it has almost no taste to it, so is an excellent idea for sauces and dips - especially for raw veg.

Yes, true. But those effects are dwarfed by high-dose supplementation. For ex., my intake is > 10mcg/day without supplementation.

I kinda doubt someone would reach very high levels of B12 from meat, he would have to eat mostly liver. Mmh might be wrong on that.

@@Battery-kf4vu I'm sure eating meat can bring b12 up to 400.

@@rationalsage1084 Have you measured it? Without supplementation I'm at ~10 mcg/d, but I haven't measured blood levels yet to know.

@@rationalsage1084 400pg/ml? Sure, but that is not a problematic level. Point is, much more people take B12 supplements than eat liver every day.

1 Thorne capsule = 400mcg of methylcobalamin. Even just 400 mcg of methylcobaamin daily put me at 1.800 blood level. Though according to the supplement study in the video, people did ok up to 1000 mcg. Though we don't know what form of b12 they were taking in the study.

All correlations for diet and nutrients with biomarkers are on the Correlations Tier on Patreon, but B12 is significantly correlated with lower homocysteine in my data (r=-0.58, p< 0.0001, 32 blood tests). That said, with 1000 mcg of methyl-B12/d, homocysteine is reduced only by ~10%, so other factors are involved (in my case). Yes on the methylation/remethylation pathways, and I've tried almost everything related-serine+B6, folate+b12+b6, TMG, increasing, choline, increasing non-traditional methyl donors (proline betaine, tryptophan betaine, trigonelline), but I'm working another hypothesis, with that video coming soon!

It would definitely be useful, especially considering the link for methionine with lifespan. I could track methionine levels, but I haven't recorded that info in an Excel file for any of the past 6 years. Also, a limiting factor is that cronometer.com (not sponsored!) doesn't have amino acid levels for all of its foods, so if I did track methionine intake, it may be incomplete.

Maybe, and to account for that I'm going to keep an eye on biomarker-B12 correlations.

Hey Oli, I pay attention to all that when making the videos, but if I do all that, I risk making these videos too technically heavy and boring...

Yes, that's true, but we can all replicate the approach to identify what potentially impacts what, rather than blind hope based on RCTs. It all comes back to n=1 studies in the end.

How do you reconcile that with the data showing an increased all-cause mortality risk for blood B12 levels > 400 pg/mL?

Folks need to look into magnesium taurate , quercetin, boron in regards to homocysteine

I would check your microbiota. And talk with a doctor.

@@lost0071000 how? Which microbiota kit?

@@tommyortiz6623 I don't know any kit. I would try magnesium and probiotics. And check with a doctor who may suggest a colonoscopy.

There's more to the story than that in the video...

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Dietary b12 increases morality while supplements do not. That indicates it is not the b12 itself but something else that is common in foods high in b12.

@@TheBwithers I wish it were that simple-very high B12 levels are found in critically ill patients, and I doubt that's diet related: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28025528/

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 It might be somewhat simple if there are three independent reasons for the varied results amongst dietary intake, supplements, and disease status 1. High dietary intake may be a surrogate for high animal protein which may increase mortality. It's a reasonable theory. 2. Supplemental B12 up to 1000 mcg may not detrimentally affect health, at least according to the one study you cited. This may be because B12 in this case is not inflated due to disease or high animal product intake (It would be nice if there were additional studies to confirm that supplmental B12 up to 1000 mcg does not negatively affect health). 3. High B12 may be an indicator of bad health in critically ill patients because their livers or other bodily functions are failing. "Some studies have indicated that elevated serum levels of vitamin B12 might be a sign of a serious and life-threatening disease. Such falsely high valued of serum vitamin B12 levels are observed in myeloproliferative disease, acute hepatitis, severe alcoholic liver disease, and cirrhosis." It might be reasonable to presume liver disease might cause B12 problems since several years worth of B12 are stored in the liver per the Merk manual. I don't know what the myeloproliferative connection might be. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21899932/ www.merckmanuals.com/home/disorders-of-nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12-deficiency#:~:text=(See%20also%20Overview%20of%20Vitamins,to%205%20years%20to%20exhaust. Anyway, those are some possible theories

@@jackbuaer3828 Yes, great points. #3 may go into a future B12 video, and imo is the under-reported part of the B12 story.

I can directly look at the correlation for homocysteine with HDL and total cholesterol in my data (13 blood tests since 2017): weak nonsignificant correlation with HDL (r = 0.19), but higher homocysteine is significantly correlated with lower total cholesterol (r=0.57).

Definitely David!

Jarrow, this exact product: www.iherb.com/pr/jarrow-formulas-methyl-b-12-methyl-folate-lemon-100-chewable-tablets/69333?gclid=Cj0KCQjwsdiTBhD5ARIsAIpW8CL4E8d4sp4Fm-2vAjQntWaLOS096WCNLsKXWPbqaFg6Be8I3ChjTZ8aAllDEALw_wcB

Yes, definitely possible

I wouldn't say solved it, as my current homocysteine is still above my 2005 - 2009 average. B12 is correlated with a 20% reduction, which is going in the right direction, but there's more reducing to be done, and I'm looking into how to do that in my data.

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I am very interested to hear the results of that research. As for now, your approach is to take 1000ug every other day? I'm asking because I have the same problem I have these pills which are 1000ug and cannot be split, so I'd also like to cut my B12. Just take it every other day? (edit 11/21. Duh I just realized my pills are 500mcg. I'm taking vitacost B12 500mcg.

@@surfreadjumpsleep Yes, I'm taking it every other day, for now. I may experiment with every 3rd day, but I haven't made that decision yet.

I recently took B12 supplementation out of my approach (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-hPmx2AOOT7U.html), we'll see how the data looks on the next blood test.

Lower doses didn't make a dent on homocysteine... No worries, I'm working on a video that will focus on methyl donors, and not just TMG

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 only meant as a starting point .

Without supplementation, my B12 intake is < 10 mcg/d, which would put me ~400 pg/mL, which is not associated with an increased all-cause mortality risk. I didn't include it in this video, but very high B12 blood levels may be reflective of poor health: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21899932/

The study referenced at 7:32 with the graph is an association study that excluded people who supplemented with B12, meaning they had to get those elevated blood levels via diet alone (or they somehow lacked the ability to use the B12 they had therefore it was building up) which supports the idea that maybe these subjects had high animal food diets /low plant food intake. Maybe the high blood levels of B12 are just a proxy for something else.

@@abritrn Thank you for this very useful piece of information

Homocysteine activates mTOR, so it's likely to be bad for longevity... pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28148781/

@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Yeah, that was my argument, or... Not quite. I'd B12 is setting Homocysteine, and Homocysteine is bad for health, then a balanced physiological state should upregulate B12 absorption.. in that case any reasoning about an association of B12 with mortality is going into the wrong direction

Body does not make B12, and in this range he is likely be super saturated with it, hence no influence of any would be regulation

You can make that argument about every supplement or drug. Is it net beneficial for systemic health, neutral, or detrimental? For me, at least for now, it seems to be beneficial, as it's not only correlated with lower homocysteine in my data, but 3 other biomarkers in the right direction, with 2 going in the wrong direction, out of 20 comparisons.