we may all have different answers for theological questions. one thing that is agreed upon is this- every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is lord. period.
Herein lies the problem with the legal orientation of western christianity. Modern day evangelicals see "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess" as a threat instead of a promise.
“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”-James 1:17
Hey...B.J. I,d be glad to help ya w/ all that....but it sounds like ya toooooo far gone...but that's not against the law....if you actually read & studied ( 2Tim 2:15) the material I put out there...& ya still don't get the dif ' btw. Free Will...& Robots...i,ll just thank ya for making my....point....try following The Apostle Paul...who commanded us to...." be followers of me as I also follow....Christ..." 1Cor 11:1 NOT Calvin...or any other....man...1Cor 2:1-16(V5) & here,s why....Gal 1:1-12(V6,9,)
God’s call goes out to all, yet He foreknew who would answer, and thus predestined the elect. Free will and God’s sovereignty are both biblical truths, though the harmonization of the two is not possible with our limited human understanding, similar to the trinity. God is beyond us and beyond our comprehension. He wills no evil and desires all to be saved, yet also wove the fabric of time. Christians aren’t called to comprehend everything about God, but to embrace the truths He HAS allowed us to understand through His word.
As John Stott and Charles Spurgeon recognized: the Bible teaches both free will and predestination. It's a Biblical paradox and they said they will teach both. I humbly agree.
And John Stott also realised that the Bible teaches death/ destruction and perishing, not burning forever in a place we call hell, that the Bible never once refers to in Hebrew or Greek. check out this video ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FoNbPN_bSRs.html
@@michaelnewzealand1888 Amen to that. Just as stated in John 3:16, we either perish or else we receive the gift of eternal life: ⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) We either come to repentance, or else we perish: ⚫ "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) ⚫ "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Jesus, in Luke 13:5) Examples of the wicked being destroyed, not "be"ing any more: ⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7). ⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). ⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7). ⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . . ⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6yC3c8KqxPU.html
@@TheBibleSays Hell is eternal.. unbelievers don't just cease away from existence. The Bible is every clear on that. ""Then He will say to those on His left, 'Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (demons);" - Mat 25:41 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was hurled into the lake of fire." - Rev 20:15 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake (resurrect), these to everlasting life, but some to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence)." - Dan 12:2 "If your hand causes you to stumble and sin, cut it off [that is, remove yourself from the source of temptation]! It is better for you to enter life crippled, than to have two hands and go into hell, into the unquenchable fire," - Mark 9:43 "save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom." - Jud 1:23 "And the beast (Antichrist) was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who, in his presence, had performed [amazing] signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were hurled alive into the lake of fire which blazes with brimstone." - Rev 19:20
@@joedyms What happens to the unsaved? The apostle Paul wrote: ⚫ "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life though Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23) There is nothing in that verse about eternal life in some sort of fiery "hell." Unless you receive the gift of eternal life you will perish in what is called the "second death," after resurrection for judgment. After that second death, there is no more hope of life or resurrection. You perish. You're destroyed. You don't exist any more. It's the end of you. Here's a few Bible verses about this: ⚫ "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be" (Psalms 37:10). ⚫ "When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalms 92:7). ⚫ "The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity" (Proverbs 10:29). ⚫ "As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation" (Proverbs 10:25). ⚫ "Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Though his excellency mount up to the heavens, and his head reach unto the clouds; Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he?" (Job 20:4-7). ⚫ "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch . . . ⚫ "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." (Malachi 4:1,3) John 3:16 says the same: we either receive the gift of eternal life, or we perish: ⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) So where does the fiery eternal "hell" idea come from? King James' translators added it to the Bible by using their word "hell" 23 times in the New Testament . . . in place of three different Greek words. Each of those three words has a different meaning . . . and none of those three refers to a place of fiery, perpetual torment. The three Greek words are: ▬ άδης (“hades” in English); appears as "hell" ten times and as "grave" once in the KJV New Testament; refers to the place of the dead, the grave, similar to the Hebrew word "she'ol" in the Old Testament ▬ γέεννα (“geenna” or “gehenna” in English); Appears as "hell" 12 times in the KJV New Testament; refers to the valley used as a dump outside Jerusalem in Jesus' time. Constant fire and maggots there permanently destroyed whatever was thrown in. ▬ ταρταρωσας a verb, an inflection or variant of ταρταρόω; (“tartaroo" in English); used only once: to describe fallen angels being put into a figurative pit or prison, to be held in restraint. You don't have to take my word for this. Look it up with online Bible study tools such as blueletterbible.org. Translators (especially King James Version, 1611) made a real mess when they used the word "hell" in place of these three Greek words. They had inherited their hell concept, by tradition, from the Catholic church. By using "hell" they were twisting the meanings of the Greek words to conform to their concept of a place of perpetual, fiery torment. Over time translators have recognized this error and footnoted their versions, noting the original Greek words, or even using the original Greek words - and not using the word "hell." Young's Literal Translation (YLT), for example, never uses the word "hell." Here's an example of Jesus speaking of "hell fire": ⚫ "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" (Mark 9:47) "Hell" in that verse is from that Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna," a reference to that dump outside Jerusalem. The trash and garbage was thrown there to be destroyed by the constant fire - "hell fire" - and worms - maggots - in the dump. *Jesus likened the destruction of the wicked to being cast into the dump for permanent, final destruction. They would be figuratively thrown into the dump for destruction.* The "lake of fire" in Revelation pictures the same, final destruction: ⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) Here's another verse where "hell" is from the Greek word γεέννῃ or "gehenna": ⚫ "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28) So, when Jesus said the soul can be destroyed in hell, what did He mean? First, "destroy" is from the Greek word ἀπόλλυμι ("apollymi") which means "to destroy fully" (from _Strong's Defintions_ ). And "hell" in that verse is from the Greek word γέεννα ("geenna" or "gehenna") which was the dump outside Jerusalem, where fire and maggots destroyed all the trash and bodies that were thrown in. *Jesus likened the fate of the unsaved* to being "thrown into the dump," into "hell [gehenna] fire" for destruction. In Matthew 25:46 Jesus describes the fate of the unsaved: ⚫ "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." When a criminal is executed, the punishment is not "everlasting" in the sense of being ongoing, perpetual punishing. No, the punishment is "everlasting" in the sense that it is permanent, complete and final and irrevocable. It will be the same for the unsaved; they will destroyed and that will be the end of them. Their punishment is finished and stands forever; it is not perpetual, ongoing punishing. The words "permanent" and "final" never appear in the KJV; "everlasting" is often used instead. It's a mistake to assume "everlasting" means an ongoing, perpetual process. It can refer to a permanent, finished and irreversible condition. The "lake of fire" in Revelation is like the gehenna "dump" fire. It pictures final, irrevocable destruction. Those persons who are "cast into the lake of fire" are destroyed. They are destroyed, through death; specifically the second death, after judgment. They have no further hope of life or resurrection. They will never "be" again: ⚫ "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) Even death and the grave (hades) will be destroyed by being figuratively "cast in the lake of fire": ⚫ "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14,15) After the final judgment and the destruction of the wicked, death is effectively destroyed-because everyone left will have received eternal life. And the grave (hades) is destroyed, because no one will be left in the grave awaiting resurrection for judgment. Paul wrote: ⚫ "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Corinthians 15:26) Death will be destroyed . . . after the wicked have been destroyed through death and the rest have received eternal life.
One must take all of the Bible into account when answering this question. From what I have thus learned, first consider that we were given free will. God knows the outcome of all of our lives. Remember, God was sorry that He made us due to our bent toward sinning and evil. We have to look at our lives as having multiple endings. God knows the outcome of each, but it's up to us to choose the right path and trust in Jesus, thereby giving us eternal life.
Free will. Willingly choosing God. Looking at the bible as a book end. In the beginning the heavens and earth were created, the end they are restored to how it started.
2 Peter 3:9 ‘The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.’
If you look at the very first of I and II Peter; it says that they are both addressed to God's Elect. So when 2 Peter 3:8-9 says that God is not willing that ALL should come to repentance.... it means ALL the ELECT.....not ALL of mankind. And ALL the Elect will get saved because Jesus saves ALL the sheep; not one more and not one less.
@@martinleon3145 But John 3:1-15 tells you what it takes for somebody to become a WHOSEVER! It takes God regenerating them through the Holy Spirit....God only regenerates the ELECT.....thats why Jesus told His disciples "You did not choose Me but I chose You!" Salvation worked in the OT the same way. God chose Israel out of all the nations on earth (Amos 3:2). God did not choose the Egyptians, the Babylonians, or the Assyrians. God chose only Israel! God does not choose to save everyone. That is not Biblical at all. God only saves ALL the Elect Sheep; not one more and not one less. Jesus says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; and I will raise them up on the last day!"
@@timclark2925 that would make God unjust. The true God is not that kind of God. To choose some souls for eternal life and throw all the others in eternal hell. That is unfair and unjust. To make people suffer eternally so he can manifest his power and give himself glory, that's tyrannical, narcissistic and unjust. Just who do you think God is?
@@dave7825 Your response is IDENTICAL to the one Paul writes in the Bible.....Just read Romans 9:14-21 "14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"
@@samjohnson9904 Reformed theology is proven by scripture,it is not a man made philosophy.I used to be mostly Arminian in my theology until I had both of my shoulders replaced and God gave me plenty of of time to pray and study and that's when He showed me the error of my belief.You really need to study it,Sam.
@@CBALLEN, in context, Paul is writing to Christians from the house of Chloe (the most carnal church in the NT) in regards to the advanced aspects of their spirituality. It's re-stated in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 and mirrored in Hebrews 5:10-14. The passage is about natural and spiritual as opposed to lost and saved as the Calvinist theology teaches. Simply, Paul is telling these Christians that they are not ready for the advanced teachings because they are not spiritually mature enough to grasp them.
Rom 11:33-34 O how deep are God’s riches, and wisdom, and knowledge! How unfathomable are his decisions and unexplainable are his ways! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become his adviser?
The thing is this: God doesn't owe you anything, he can do whatever he wants with you just like he can with me. He can also predestine you to hell just as he can predestine you to salvation. Why should God adapt to your "humanism"? Paul already said : Listen carefully ! Romans 9:11-25: "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of 'Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Ya`akov have I loved, but Esav have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with 'Elohim? 'Elohim forbid. 15 For he saith to Mosheh, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of 'Elohim that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Havahn for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against 'Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if 'Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Havahn us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the goyim? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved." Couldn't it be said more clearly? Does not God have the power to show mercy when he wants to ? And again, is it true that everyone is lost because of his own fault? Although it is God who directs! Proverbs 16:4: "4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:9: "9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." IMPORTANT: without himself being the author of evil. Especially if everyone were in hell, it would be deserved because after all, we are saved by grace ? Or are we ? So even if only one stepped it would still be heartfelt on his part! Of course, because the signs of God's sovereignty and human will in the Holy Scriptures, i.e. in the Bible, will always remain a mystery. Reply to the video :
"No one will be in hell who doesnt deserve to be there." How could I deserve anything if it my actions, thoughts, and words were pre-determined by God's choice? If I deserve something, I must have done something to gain the status of me deserving that thing, but if I dont have a choice, how do I deserve anything? Did God predestine me to deserve hell? If so, then I dont know if that's a God worthy of my worship.
My friend this man is a confused old man. Love God with all your might, trust that he loves you and will continue to work on you as long as you surrender to him. Admit you are a sinner whose sins need to be washed away. Know that all deserve hell because all have sinned, however god has called the whole world to know him and repent, yet many do not becuase they love there sin and are wilfully ignorant. Anyone can be born again as god draws every man to repentance,so repent and live pleasing to god and enjoy a relationship with him and you will be with him for all eternity. I cant mention everything as it would be too long but that's the jist
God is simply an evil being who wants all to burn in hell forever and ever. Its possible that "heaven" and salvation are just a trick. Theres 0 evidence god isnt evil.
Your actions are a result of the free will God gave you. A lot of people choose to deny that free will exists because, if it doesn’t, then that means all of our actions are seen from a puppet master viewpoint. This way, we can claim no responsibility over our actions as they were “predestined” and we have absolutely no control over them. This is false. I’m choosing out of my free will to type this message to you to help you understand why free will is a very real thing. You choose to sit up in your bed in the morning and make breakfast. You choose that you want eggs, and then you use your free will to say “nevermind I don’t want eggs, I want bacon”. You exercise your free will every second of your life. Many like to deny that free will exists because denying it then gives them an excuse to accuse God of being evil. How could God say he loves us, then make it so that we have 0 control over our actions, both right and wrong, and then damn us to eternal suffering because of actions we don’t have control over to begin with? Free will is very real my friend. Many people want to understand how free will, Gods sovereignty and predestination all work hand in hand. Their mistake is when they refuse to accept that they won’t understand it 100%. It’s unfathomable to our human minds to understand entirely.
@@hezikiawilliams392 The problem with your point of you is God's omniscience, specially with the first human sin. God knew beforehead everything Adam was going to do even before he created him. All humanity is cursed because of that first sin. I'm a Belieber myself but I can't deny this is hard to understand.. and your argument doesn't give a answer to it.
Notice how people who reject the things Piper discusses here have zero verses in the bible to back up their argument, you reject the word of God. Some even reveal that they actually hate the real Jesus and have created some kind of idol named jesus that makes more sense to their unregenerate human logic. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways" Isaiah 55:8. Your ideas of what God should and shouldn't do mean absolutely nothing.
Well I guess you need to hope your right.. Are you one of the elect? How do you know? I mean how do you really know, in an assurance sense? How do you identify others who aren't? How do you truly know your not one of those 'others' who aren't.. and thar your deceived and on route for he'll?
The Glory is given to God as he gave each of us the freedom to choose heaven or hell... faith in God or denial .... all praise be to God our heavenly father.
Well that isn’t what John Piper believes from what I can see, I may be wrong, but he doesn’t believe in free will which is what you need to make a free decision. You must believe in both free will and predestination to correctly understand the bible, it teaches both as if they are somehow in unison.
The way he talks about it makes it seem like he thinks he's better than those in Hell even though he deserves it. And you can't get around the fact that if God chose some to go to Heaven then he chose others for Hell
@@broj5495 Nah....Noah and his fam were 'saved' and the rest of the world 'perished' without any atonement for sin. If the Arc is a type for Christ...how come there was no human sacrifice then as an atonement? Ifso facto....Noah and fam were saved without atonement.
@@broj5495 Hi matie...thanks 4 your reply saying: "They used animals as an atonement for sin before Jesus: Quoting from the OT: "For I desire a steadfast love, and NOT sacrifice. The knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings (Hosea 6:6) Many places in Rabbinic literature emphasise that performing charitable deeds, praying, and studying Torah are more meritorious than animal sacrifice. AND that the former can replace animal sacrifice when the Temple is not active. Jews have always believed in ritual atonement through deeds of loving kindness. Thanks for being civil Broj. Say...do you ring Matt Dillahunty on the Atheist Experience as Brojo?
Not predestined to go to hell, but God certainly pre knows what our choices will be. Though He gives us every opportunity and reason to change direction. He will not force us to conform. We are not His pets we are His children. He has given the respect letting us choose.
That’s the big debate. Did God predestine is to make these free will choices or are they actually free will choices and God has to work through the Choices of men. It’s a very difficult subject to get into because it’s hard to say what God did and does
Why would God allow someone to be born if He knew ahead of time that the person would end up in hell? It would more merciful for the person not to be born.
That’s exactly what Jesus said about Judas, but Judas was still used to bring glory to God. The whole point is that God can do as he pleases with his created beings. He doesn’t send someone to hell. They choose to go to hell, but God is so powerful that he is able to bring himself glory through a sinner who has rejected him. Read Romans and explains this perfectly.
“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die. Ezekiel 18:21-24 NIV
The biblical doctrine teaches both predestination and humanity as totally free actors with full responsibility over our actions, and it also shows God's intervention in other people's lives to force a turn of events in order to fulfill prophecy. Yea, it's a mess. Yes, it's a paradox. There's no way around it. Many people cannot believe, even less worship God because of these unanswered topics. Yet, God doesn't move a finger to give us the answer. It's like this is a play that has to end before we get the answer, and when the play is over and we can achieve the knowledge of the questions we have pondered over for so long, God says it will be too late. Every time I hear someone say that the bible is so clear and consistent in its message I roll my eyes.
The Bible teaches free will and predestination, this is true, however, it does not teach predestination to salvation or damnation. It teaches predestination for those "in him" to be conformed to the image of his son.
Imagine, for a moment, having six children. You had the power to make them all happy (pre-destine them to happiness). Instead, you get the bright idea to butcher five of them in front of the one remaining. You do this because the one remaining child will now think more highly of you because they will learn that you are not merely a loving father but a heartless murder too - who has arbitrarily chosen not to butcher you. You can also imagine, as God tosses your children into the fire, how filled with joy you will become as you selfishly say "thank you God for picking them and not me". Does it need to be pointed out that a more horrific view of God could not be imagined? If God commands you to love your enemies while he hates them is that not hypocrisy of the greatest magnitude.
Imagine that you were a king whose citizens killed and attacked your only child. The king would be fully just in punishing the criminals, but in his great mercy he decided to save some of them. Those who he saved would be evermore grateful since their king had mercy.
God does love his enemies. He showed his love in this, that while we were still sinners, he died for us. Anyone who goes to hell WILLINGLY chooses to rebel and not accept him.
@@jvigel2101 You're confusing popular evangelicalism (which also paints a horrible picture of God, but that's another discussion) with traditional Calvinism - which is what the speaker in this video promotes and which I am responding to. In traditional Calvinism, God does not love his enemies. He hates them the way he hated Esau and all the others He predestined to eternal hell.
Whoever said unbelievers are the children of God? Indeed they are not. John 8 is clear that those who are God's children will hear His voice and believe. Those who are not His children are children of the devil and simply will not follow.
@@wildbill6536 Ah, so God doesn't kill his own children for his glory - just your children. Of course, that makes everything fine. Also, who decided who his children are? HE did!! Whatever you call them, they are humans who have the potential to experience both love or torment. Why does it make a difference what title God decides to put on those HE CHOSE to save and those HE CHOSE to butcher in hell? God DECIDED to love some and torment others. Not because some were his children and some were not. It was God who decided who would burn in hell and God who decided that they would not be his children. Please stop defending your filthy Satan-god who hates most of the people you love - maybe even you, you can't be sure yet.
The answer begins at 3:34 God is *MOST GLORIFIED* by displaying His full range of perfection, including displaying His *Wrath* attribute for His *Elect* audience, to show them just how much *luck,* I mean *grace* they were given for not being predestined to be burned forever, like the other billions that were. God could've predestined them as well, but He didn't, *THAT* action of God makes His grace shine more brightly, in the eyes of Calvinist theologians.
@@primeobjective5469 Most Calvinists say that man is unable to choose to serve God, which is why God predestined some to choose him and some to be sent to hell...essentially. I partially agree; on our own, we're not capable but with God, all things are possible. He gave us all the ability to choose Him, and as we know, all don't choose him. This is what makes worship possible. It's interesting that God's sovreignty is spoken about so much but we don't give God credit for His creation. He gave us the ability to choose or reject Him. Romans 1:20 - For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.
JWJ BROS the Bible mentions in the grave that no one that goes their is honoring the father, neither good or bad because they are unconscious beings at that point until Christ resurrects them and I believe that not the he’ll doctrine
Jesus gave a terrifying warning when he said "Many will say to me on the last day and say Lord Lord, didn't we do many works in your name, and I will say to them, depart from me for I never knew you" (i.e. had a love relationship with you). This is an incredibly tough statement indeed, as the meaning of Jesus's words are terrifying. He is saying some people will genuinely think they had a love relationship with God, only to get the horrific shock that they NEVER had a relationship with God .... EVER!!! These are without doubt the most "scary words" in the entire bible, and seriously frightens many people including me. Therefore Time for some close examination of my our hearts and souls. Is our relationship with Jesus, the Son of God genuine or not? Personally I know in my heart that Jesus really is God incarnate, and he truly was sent by God the Father. He died on that cross where he took the penalty for sin, for those who would ever believe in him. Therefore he took an "eternal punishment" for every individual soul who has genuine faith in him. The big question we all need to ask is "did he take MY personal punishment, upon himself on the cross". I "know" my faith in Jesus is genuine as I know Jesus is truly God and truly man, but even Satan and his followers know this. Justfication is by FAITH ALONE and I genuinely pray for the forgiveness of my sins. I often wonder what will Jesus say to me on that last day. With all my heart I hope he says "welcome, come into my Kingdom". Because In the end faith in Christ in this world is paramount. Everything else is just noise in comparison. God bless everybody.
-A man doesn’t choose what he will believe. Show him the Truth and that will make him believe. -But a man can deny or reject Truth at his own demise. If he selfishly suppresses Truth he will doom those that can’t receive The Truth. If a man is saved, God saved him! It was God’s plan, God’s sending, God’s Son suffering, dying and resurrecting. It’s God’s Spirit that was sent, that changes a man’s heart, yes and mind. The Spirit of God moves in a messenger and compels him to proclaim the Good News to you and it’s the Spirit that enters your mind and heart and persuades you to believe. It’s the Truth that MAKES you believe. It’s not your choice and you for sure are not responsible for the change in your own life. It’s God who works in you, to send, to plant, to water and to grow Love for Jesus first and then for The Father. It’s God faithfulness that births Faith in you! It’s God’s Mercy, Grace, and Love that births Love in you! It’s God’s Son and his faithfulness to his father, it’s Gods Son and his love for his father that saved you! It’s this message that breaks through a man’s Pride and humbles them. You can take no credit for your salvation… But… You can deny or reject the truth and perish… You get all the credit for your rejection! Pastor John Stop saying it’s God’s fault men perish! It’s God’s desire non will Perish! He is patient with man’s rejection and denial. But he will Judge us if we reject The Truth and suppress it from others. In love I share this!
The thing is this: God doesn't owe you anything, he can do whatever he wants with you just like he can with me. He can also predestine you to hell just as he can predestine you to salvation. Why should God adapt to your "humanism"? Paul already said : Listen carefully ! Romans 9:11-25: "11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of 'Elohim according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Ya`akov have I loved, but Esav have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with 'Elohim? 'Elohim forbid. 15 For he saith to Mosheh, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of 'Elohim that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Havahn for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against 'Elohim? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if 'Elohim, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Havahn us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the goyim? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved." Couldn't it be said more clearly? Does not God have the power to show mercy when he wants to ? And again, is it true that everyone is lost because of his own fault? Although it is God who directs! Proverbs 16:4: "4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:9: "9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." IMPORTANT: without himself being the author of evil. Especially if everyone were in hell, it would be deserved because after all, we are saved by grace ? Or are we ? So even if only one stepped it would still be heartfelt on his part! Of course, because the signs of God's sovereignty and human will in the Holy Scriptures, i.e. in the Bible, will always remain a mystery. Reply to the video :
@@FollowerOfTheLight2782 Calvinists are wrong but so are Traditionists. We agree no one is saved by choice, decision, the will of man, or acceptance. God saves us by his choice, by His grace, and through His Faithfulness. In 2 Peter 3 we are told regarding the Judgement coming upon Israel who rejected Jesus and the Prophets... 8 Dear friends, don't forget that for the Lord one day is the same as 1,000 years, and 1,000 years is the same as one day. 9 The Lord isn't slow about keeping his promises, as some people think he is. In fact, God is patient, because he wants everyone to turn from sin and no one to be lost. 1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, I ask you to pray for everyone. Ask God to help and bless them all and tell God how thankful you are for each of them. 2Pray for kings and others in power, so we may live quiet and peaceful lives as we worship and honor God. 3 This kind of prayer is good, and it pleases God our Savior. 4 God wants everyone to be saved and to know the whole truth, which is,... Are those verses True or not? The scripture you provided says God saves us and God can condemn who he wants but he doesn't condemn anyone who doesn't first deny or reject him. Once they rejected him, God kept them from hearing the word. I was caught up in Calvinism but I kept reading as you will and I eventually began to understand the work of God's sovereignty in this world. I appreciate Calvinism because they are half-right. God saves us. Traditionalists are half right as well Men are responsible for rejecting or denying the Gospel. It's very clear once you begin to see it. I get just as offended at Leight Flowers always teaching we must choose, receive, and accept Christ. The responsibility for another's belief in God is on The Church. No one will be saved if we aren't obedient to the Spirit at work in us compelling us to share what Christ did for us. Has the message of the Cross captured our hearts and minds because of the Grace, Mercy, and Love of God? Then share the Love for Christ that's alive in your heart. If not, no one will believe and no one will be saved.
“No one in hell will be there without deserving to be there” doesn’t seem logical when they are there by predestination. And plus all have sinned and fallen short of glory, so of course everyone that’s there deserves hell. John states that as if you got to heaven if you deserve to be there and you go to hell if you don’t. I would rather say everyone in heaven is there because they don’t deserve to be there, Jesus Christ died for their sins, his grace brings salvation “for all those who believe” there would be no reason for Christ sacrifice if you were predestined to “deserve” heaven.
“This creature from the dirt, defied the Living God! And the punishment was too severe?! What’s wrong with you people! ...We have forgotten who we are and we have forgotten who God is.” - R. C. Sproul
God's punishment is not too severe. Death and destruction and perishing are totally biblical and appropriate. The twisted sick Eternal torment that is wrongly ascribed to God is not only too severe it's terrible. Do born again Christians believe in torture? Did medieval Catholics and extreme Muslims? Yes, and their theology complements their actions. Let's get rid of this lie forever. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-FoNbPN_bSRs.html
No. We have not forgotten. Perhaps Sproul has forgotten about the mercy of God and His desire that none shall perish. Why is it that so many Christians think that God is filled with more rage than love? God is love. God is life. God is light. In my opinion, to think that the Holy God that loves us all beyond our capacity to understand and has instructed us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us would torture anyone for eternity is an insult to the character of God.
Piper says that God created the universe to display the full range of his perfections including wrath, power, judgment, justice, etc., Let's think about this. If God needed to make the universe to do just as such, then that means the He is dependent of something. That would not make Him God. I don't believe God needed to do anything, but instead, because of His love, He decided to create a universe and conscious beings to willingly reciprocate that same love.
+brivera6462 But they didn't willingly reciprocate that same love. They broke the only rule He gave them. In fact, since they were made completely good, they didn't do anything wrong, and they couldn't. Breaking that one rule was the only thing they could do that was wrong. AND THEY DID IT! AND SHORTLY AFTER THEY WERE MADE. The only means to help them was for God Himself to become man and take the punishment Himself.
+deezynar with all due respect, you don't make yourself too clear with whatever point you want to make. I assume you are referring to Adam and Eve in the garden, correct? Then you said they couldn't do anything wrong but then did something wrong (contradiction). I'm sorry but I am completely lost with your response.
brivera6462 They were not normal people. They were not like you and me. God made them without sin, THEY WERE UNABLE TO SIN, EXCEPT for that ONE THING. It is not complicated. They had only one thing to avoid and they were on it like white on rice in a nanosecond.
Where are you getting your information from because that is clearly not scriptural. Adam and Eve were just as human as you and I. Also, what you stated about not being able to sin BUT THEY SINNED by disobeying God is a clear self-contradiction on your part. You say that had one thing to avoid-- meaning they had a choice. If you have read the Bible you will see that it is our Free Will to choose that will determine our eternal destiny. Adam had just as much of a choice to obey or disobey God's command as we do to choose to accept or reject Jesus' gift of salvation. Once again, I do not know where you are getting your information from but please check the validity of your sources or your ability to interpret. I do not say that to offend but more as a constructive response.
brivera6462 You are in serious error if you believe that pre-fall Adam was just like you and I. What I have said previously is very simple, and right from the bible. "God saw all that He made, and it was very good." Man was made "very good." That means Adam and Eve couldn't sin. Everything they wanted to do was in line with God's will. God made one test for them that they could potentially do that would be against His will, eat the fruit that will give them something they lacked. They already had goodness, it was evil that they knew nothing about. Adam was not like us until after he rebelled. Adam had no free will to sin before he ate the fruit, except in that one, very specific action. After Adam's rebellion, mankind is spiritually dead. In fact, spiritual death is passed from father to child. It means that no man will choose God, because all are conceived with a hate for God. Mary was made to be pregnant by God, because spiritual death comes through men. The virgin birth is based on this. Jesus was like Adam was before the fall. Because Jesus stayed obedient, and took the punishment meant for those who God predestined, they will have spiritual life given to them for the first time in their lives.
kudos to Tony who has to say basically the same exact line at the end of every single podcast xD already more than 1000 times to date. Feeling sorry for ya, it's ok to play a recording ;) thank you guys so much for your answers regarding predestination, free-will and God's sovereignty and grace.
Piper never really answers the question. So, God gets glory by rescuing people from the dark backdrop of sin and judgement, but what about PREDESTINATION? If he predestined people to hell, he's still the bad guy to those who are "incapable" of choosing him, which ought to make us question his goodness. That doesn't make him a God who "loved the world," but a cruel dictator who randomly selects who gets a slice of the goods or not. Sounds more like the Muslim image of God... The other question that comes to mind listening to Piper is, "If we are predestined and saved from said backdrop of sin and judgement, is God the author of sin?" Truly, if we have no choice in the matter and God destined people to damnation then he would also have to be the author of evil because he "elected" before the foundation of the world. Sooo, he made people to be damned for his glory therefore making him the author of sin and evil?
Romans 1-3 makes it clear that mankind rejects what is made known by God to them. Don't let Calvinists use Romans 9-11 as their proof text for election. Romans 9-11 is talking about Israel, not individuals chosen for salvation or damnation. Piper is teaching lies, as does John MacArthur and all of their ilk. The hate the true gospel that is for all men because it robs them of their own glory.
***** Wow, bro. It's a pretty hard statement, but I think you hit the nail on the head with Calvinists, at least the extreme ones who believe in literal double predestination (it's my understanding that some believe God elected some but simply "passed over" the others rather than actually literally predestining them to death). Far as I'm concerned, with guys like Robert Morey, John MacAurthur and so many others, they are hindering people from hearing the Gospel rather than spreading it forth to a needful world. It's almost like they're saying, "hah hah, I'm special, and you're not." (Although I admit there are a few who seem to at least be humble enough to say they think they deserve death, too; they were just blessed to be chosen.) And if you object, they just say "who are you to question God?" (Although we question their view of God, not God Himself, of course.) And only so because, hey, as long as they're one of the elect, they're safe, right? Not like they need to worry about anyone else. Calvinism just feels like an obvious form of pride to me. And if we believers who believe in free will to choose the Gospel (or believe in God's sovereignty according to Universalism) are heretics like I've heard some - not all - Calvinists accuse, well, hey, what can we do it about it, right? According to their view of the Gospel, God WANTED us to believe in something heretical so we'd never come to Him, because apparently making us stay in sin and unbelief glorifies Him. The Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Calvinism: Good News for a precious few, REALLY REALLY bad news for everyone else.
Agreed, the question isn't answered. It's frustrating as the answers to this question get danced around like it did. I get putting borders around a question heavy like this, but the question wasn't addressed.
Romans 9-11 has a very happy ending: "God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all. … From Him, and through Him and to Him are all things." (Romans 11:32,36a)
God created us and wants everyone to be saved . He gives plenty of opportunities to get get saved thru His son Jesus. They beat Jesus , spit on Him and died a horrible death , a sacrifice for our sins. God gives us free will to choose.
That’s true, saying ur no longer a Calvinist really is saying I just no longer believe or agree with the Word of God. Well I’d say then with that t hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us
Me too I can except there is some mystery to things without reaorting to Calvin's 5 points which paint a bleak picture but also have massive theological holes in. I except we can't understand everything
Jesus said: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". So: am I wooed gently by the grace of a loving God, that brings me to a place where I can freely choose? Or am I prevailed upon overwhelmingly by the power of a sovereign God, that makes my decision inevitable? I doubt that the age-old debate between those who adopt the theology of unconditional election, and those who hold Arminius’ ‘free will’ worldview, will ever be settled, at least not before we meet God face to face. Perhaps both views can somehow be reconciled, in a way that we can’t yet understand? In centering their theology around a strictly literal view of scriptures like Romans 9:18-20, Calvinists come to view the glory of God as being exemplified in the exercise of His sovereign power. While Arminians, in taking a more liberal view, and basing their theology on scriptures like Joshua 24:15 and Philippians 2:5-8, come to view the glory of God as being exemplified in His love and condescension. So, is God all-powerful or all-loving? My understanding of the scriptures tells me that He is both. I would like to make three points: 1. It’s imperative that we always remain open-minded to revelation of the Holy Spirit, and are willing to continuously overhaul our own theological stance, to whatever extent an infinitely wise God would have us do so. As soon as we become uncompromisingly set in our views, we are no longer able to be taught. 2. Ultimately our trust must be grounded in God Himself - and His ability to judge both justly and mercifully - and not in our own doctrinal interpretations, which are in some way compromised by our sinfulness. Salvation lies in the person of He who said "I am the way, the truth and the life", not in any specific doctrine. ("You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.") 3. Neither the Calvinist nor Arminian views undermine the glorious truth of Romans 10:13 “everybody who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. I take it as read that “everybody who” literally means “everybody who”. So if I may restate this: if you call on the name of the Lord, you are saved, regardless of whatever combination of events - and to what extent they were ordained by God, or were freely chosen by you - brought you to that point. And you may rest assured that your decision to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior glorifies God, irrespective of whatever theological views you might hold.
Or is he saying, it is not possible without God? No one gets hired as an employee unless the employer draws applicants with "help wanted" adds. Does that mean you don't get to have an interview? It is still ALL GOD. I believe they are both understandable P O V's. I have concluded that reformed rejects freewill because we just can't fully understand it. No one can, no matter their theology. I have come to see it like this. Calvinist perspective will be correct AFTER the close of probation or when eternity begins. Freewill is right now. Calvinism will have it more correct in eternity. Either way, freewill is plainly inferred in scripture, yet is a mystery whether we accept it or not. I would just fear that by accepting Calvinism, and I was wrong, I would be guilty of assuming my will for God's, therefore imagining myself as God, in a sense. This notion can work the other way as well. One is hopefully being zealous for God's will no matter the theological perspective.
jamie Russell Jamie, many thanks for your reply. If pressed, I would lean toward a theology that involves libertarian free will, as I see this as a necessary characteristic of perfect love; but I happily admit that it’s shaped by my own philosophical intuitions as much as a literal view of scripture. I agree that concepts like ‘love’ and ‘free will’ have abstract and existential aspects that elude a purely intellectual exegesis of the written word. Ultimately, I believe that all answers are embodied in the nature and character of God, as reflected in the person of Jesus (“anyone who has seen me has seen the Father”). Meanwhile, I see through a glass darkly, and I believe that the best I can do is approach God with the disposition and expectations of a little child (“Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” Mark 10:15).
@@SamTipton Yes,He will draw not only JEWS,but Gentiles too,but this doesn't mean every individual Jew and Gentile.Jesus died for many of ALL MEN.Rev 5; 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Jesus died for and actually redeemed US(God's elect) to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED,TONGUE,PEOPLE,and NATION.Jesus didn't die for everyone in every nation.Jesus knew exactly who He was dying to forgive,He knew each name and He actually purchased these individuals with His blood,their salvation was finished at the cross and 100% of the people Jesus died for will be with Him in Heaven,none will be lost to Hell.This is why salvation is 100% the Lord's doing and 0% man's.No one seeks God,none are good,no not even one and it's for this reason that God must give us a new heart first and God then grants repentance and belief.These are things no natural man cares about or wants.So man's free will can do nothing but send him to Hell,never Heaven.
@@CBALLEN I agree with your interpretation of "all men" But i have to respond to the other thing. God calls us to be Holy as he is Holy. We can abstain from sin, it is our duty as soliders of Christ to struggle against sin in the spiritual battle of this life. We're to put on the whole armor of God and stand. We're to die to the sin. Christians are told to mortify the deads of the flesh. Put to death our members on the earth, think on eternal things. The spirit aids greatly, but it does not force us into obedience. Sin is deceitful and Satan knows how to trick men. Don't believe the lie that we can't help it. We are to be transformed, we are to aid to our faith virtue and to virtue knowledge and to knowledge self control, etc. That psalm is clearly hyperbole and before the cross. God will's for us is sanctification (1 Thessalonians 4:3). We cannot be sinless (1 John 1:8). God gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). God became sin that we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). Christ has made it possible for man to be perfect and righteous. Those who walk according to the spirit are sons of God. Romans 8:13-14 I think. Romans 12:2 -- This is a command. We play a role in it otherwise its not a sacrifice or a spiritual service. WE must struggle against sin (Hebrews 12:4) Read Christ's message to the church at Sardis in Revelation 3. He says their works aren't perfect yet and they should hold fast and repent. That seems to contradict your statement about 0% man. We must believe, confess, repent, be baptized, and hold fast. We must turn to God and he will turn to us. Your teaching has the smell of some weak preaching, a by product of people with itching ears.
@@ervabarnesii4892 True. God is Holy: can't tolerate sin, that's why we oughta be washed in the blood. God is love: that is why he sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins. God is just: that is why he punished Jesus Christ the just in our place, us, the unjusts. Jesus Christ tasted the holy wrath of God the Father in our place. All things seems to revolve around God being love and holy.
Only a person that’s rebelling against God would be offended by this. Seek him with all your heart and you will find. None of us deserve Heaven. So if God decides to save some and not others he isn’t wrong or unjust .
No but the offence comes in the last part where he says because of hell we’ll be more overjoyed in heaven and that just comes off sadistic to me. God takes no pleasure in the death of the unrighteous. That is what I believe and that is the God I worship and serve.
@@dmr4702 We need to read the Bible from start to finish tho. It's scary stuff, but Piper is mostly correct. Except the Eternal concious torment view of hell. I can see annihilationism clearly in the Bible ( which is also scary, even though more merciful ).
@@CappieBG True we should read the bible from start to finish, but I’ve read a fair amount of the bible and I see clearly how God works his purposes through man’s own decisions, I think coming to a conclusion like believing it’s all just a big play and God gave us the illusion that we make free choices just for us to never be given a choice sounds like it would compromise God’s integrity. God is not a God of confusion, to be a Calvinist you still must live life as if you have a choice and have the mindset that you have a choice, why would God make that a fact if he would tell us that we have no choice. One of the reasons God’s work is so fascinating is because he works through man’s own free will, he works out his purposes through people’s own choices, he strengthens our own position yes, does he choose our position? I don’t believe so. Jesus spoke in parables so that the Pharisees couldn’t understand what he was saying: “this is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.” - Mathew 13:13 He knew that they would have a chance to listen if he told them straight up, but he was allowing their own hardness of heart to keep them in their own ways in order that his purpose could work through their own will.
if everyone is in a rebellion against God, it means they are His enemies...God commands us to love everyone, even our enemies.... so if i love all my enemies(and by that i mean that i wish for them nothing buut the best, and them to be with God forever and ever), i'm greater than God, Who just love some of His enemies and give them grace to be saved?
In people's eyes, the God is the enemy, they treat him like that cause they are blinded. But God loves all and all he wants is to be acknowledged as their Lord that gave them life and a chance to be saved through Jesus and by his grace. God could sweep everything away but he has patience with us sinners. He's showing us great mercy. It's just incredible when I think about it as I'm writing this.
I have faith in God, yet just like anyone else can, I have questions. Here's one: So, I was nothing. I asked for nothing because I was nothing, non-existent. Then, God allowed for me to exist. Then, I grow to learn that I either do good and well by God's word/law if I want to be saved and enter heaven or I don't follow as instructed and I "burn" in hell. How do I have "freedom of choice" when the choices are only two and my opinion to the matter was none and neither was I given the choice to exist and participate in this stressful event of "do or die"?
God does not predestine anyone to hell. It is His will that all people would go to heaven but He created us with a free will so we can choose where we spend eternity.
When you think about how a loving Father could have pulled everyone out of the eternal fire but chose not to, I’m sure that brings warm fuzzies to your heart!
@@guillermodominguez8643 that’s a side argument. The issue I’m addressing is how God could have pulled everyone out and chose not to. It’s like being a Dad, seeing 3 of your kids drowning, and only pulling out 1. Assume all your kids are bad. Most people would call that Father sick, but when it comes to God everything gets spiritualized and suddenly it’s fine. As you’re probably aware I think Calvinism is a distortion of the scriptures.
@@chriscagle4226 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
@@chriscagle4226 Why not reverse the analogy? Imagine you are watching a court case where 3 criminals have been convicted and are being sentenced to prison for life. But the judge is merciful and lets one go free. Most people would say that is a bad judge. From this analogy we see that God rightfully should punish everyone but chose not to. So is God an unjust judge for saving anyone? Of course not, he is loving for saving anyone at all. Your argument doesn't hold water.
@@Kid_Blue the problem with your analogy is that the judge didn’t create those people, and that assumes the criminals had a choice. In the case of the Bible, we are born pre-condemned. In the case of Calvinism, most people will never have the option of salvation (referring to the wide road / narrow road which insulates most wind up in hell). Calvinism also teaches that those saved are actually saved against their will (they would have never chosen God had not God intervened). So you can see that the cards are stacked against the majority of humanity.
For God so loved the world ,he gave his only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Accept it or reject it .your choice.
I was a Calvinist for 20 years until Andrew Farley demolished Calvinism in 6 minutes. To sum it up, predestination is only mentioned in Ephesians and Romans. The significance of this is that these two epistles were written to Gentiles. Remember that at the time most believers were Jews. The predestination Paul is referring to is that God predestined that the Jewish messiah, Jesus Christ, would make salvation available to the Gentiles too. Check out that video; it’s amazing!!
ACTS 15:11 NKJV "“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”" Welcome back to Calvinism LOL. (this is just me half joking, brother. As long as you are in Christ, that brings me great joy. keep well)
I'm a Christian, I'm not buying it either. We have free will or we don't. I respect some Calvanist preachers who love the word, but predestination is error, and it turns unbelievers off for good reason.
@Backcountry Bobcat God chose people for good reason. One reason was they were willing, though most often reluctant. Another reason, stated often enough, is to give God the glory because they were most often pretty unsuited. Think Moses being slow of speech and not eloquent, so God provided Aaron as a helper. Most every disciple was very willing, but a total ragtag team of fishermen, tax collectors etc. Only Paul and Luke were men of letters. Again, if there is no partiality w/ God, why would he randomly pick some for destruction, some for election? There's no love or free will in that. It's makes God and autistic player, treating us like a boy who pulls the wings off flies just to see what will happen. I don't serve that God. I'm not sure why Calvinists settle for that in many ways, but it can create a lot of arrogance at being elected and many of us have noted a lot of cold heartedness among them. It's a harsh doctrine. But hey, if you are elected, just cuz God said, there's no need to be very loving, gracious and all the rest.
The Bible says to dust you are and to dust you will return what what exactly the h*ll is going to burn if we are made from dust... that's my line of argument yours doesn't make sense it actually contradicts with what the Bible teaches .. Gehena is A greek word for hell why do those 2 words have diffent meanings tell me???
People need to distinguish between preDETERMINATION and preDESTINATION. No one's fate has been pre-determined; we all face judgment. Judgment would be a farce if our fates were predetermined ahead of time. God's will, His intention, is that all would be saved. The what He has pre-destined - intends - for all. Unfortunately many will choose their own path - the wide way that leads to destruction" instead. Here's the destiny God wants - intends - for ALL: ⚫ "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, *not willing that any should perish,* but that *all* should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9) ⚫ "Who will have *all* men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:4) ⚫ "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever* believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
this guy avoids the real question. glorifying God is what people do, when they praise and worship him. the Bible says God does not glory in the destruction of anyone. answer that pastor John?????
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life. John Ch. 3 v 16. Whosoever means whosoever. There is absolutely no where to indicate that God has predestined anyone to Hell.
Even in the story of Cain & Abel, God told Cain that if he CHOSE to do what is right, he would be accepted. And in the story of Esau & Jacob, Esau had the birth right until he CHOSE to barter it away to Jacob for a bowl of soup. In both cases, Cain & Esau had free will to choose. And they CHOSE to disobey & disregard God. Maybe they were genetically predisposed to SIN more than Abel & Jacob. Maybe God blessed their DNA to be predisposed for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Just as Joseph was. And so he was hated by his brothers. His robe was a metaphor for DNA. Both are woven. Bc who actually wants to murder their brother for a garment or even shoes. And maybe God blesses their DNA from the start bc He knows they will ultimately walk with Him? Bc God knows the beginning from the ending. In Joseph's case, his brothers were also blessed but Joseph was especially blessed & favored by God. When God blesses somebody, He blesses their DNA
@@wakeywakey8603 God’s sovereignty and Man’s responsibility are two different sides of the same coin. The issue with choice is- who is sovereign, man or God? It’s hard to see Esau had a full choice in light of Romans 9:11-21 “for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?” Just worth looking at Ephesians 1:4-5 “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” - we see that God’s choice matters more than man’s choice.
True...whoever believes goes to heaven....God made every human with free will. He knows who will choose Him. ..just like He knew Eve would eat the apple..and Lucifer would fall. God knew all of this. Its His design for His purpose which is ultimately good. We dont need to understand it but pray for His mercy.
@@alexdshepherd God's sovereignty has zero to do with man's responsibility or free will. My choice to repent or not does NOT take away from God's omniscience or omnipotence
God doesn't need to show anybody mercy, he would be just to send everyone to hell? so how does it glorify God to predestine people to hell? a better question to ask is- why does God have mercy on ANYONE?
Because He loves them. He does love the world. However the way He loves the elect is like the way a husband has a love for his bride. Its a love that sets her apart. Its a love that distinguishes her. No other woman could ever have the same effect on him. because this groom is not an adulterer so there is no openness in the marriage and his devotion to His bride is traced back before the creation of the world. He is all knowing (omniscient) and is beyond time space and matter. beyond time meaning In the beginning God was already there. He created the heavens (space). and He's beyond everything including the foundation of the world. My question for anyone having trouble understanding God's predetermination of everything (not just people) is what is his purpose for evil?
don't believe it man. we have free will which god will not violate. we choose our destiny. Jesus Christ died for all mankind not just the elect and the bible says he became our sin, he took the punishment for EVERY man's sins. its literally up to us if we wanna be with him or not
My wife and I were just discussing this the other night. It amazes us that when people argue against this clear teaching in the Bible (as so many responses here do). The fact is, these doctrines are SO CLEAR in scripture...CRYSTAL CLEAR....hard to swallow, I can understand that, but clear nonetheless. In fact, every page of the Gospel of John alone emphasizes, emphatically that we are totally depraved, unconditionally elected my almighty God, that Christ death was a particular one, that God's grace is effectual and that we are secure and preserved in our salvation. It is SO clear. Crystal. God gets ALL the glory.
The flaw in Piper's reasoning is that he fails to understand that God's patience is always towards salvation, not damnation. Romans 9:22 must be read in the context of 2 pet 3:15 where Peter explicitly explains Paul's understanding of God's patience. God genuinely wants all to be saved and patiently longs for that, but those that refuse God's patient outward call are going to end up damned. God's glory resides in his love and patience toward the lost, not in the intent of their damnation. Piper fails to understand the true nature of God's love and patience. Bear in mind that Piper's understanding of Romans 9 is a historic novelty as of the 16th century. There were no Calvinists prior to the Reformation. It is a theological aberration, not orthodoxy.
I'm reading these comments and I find it bitter as fuck that the people who sound the most inhumane are speaking for a creator that's supposed to love all. Very rarely does ANYONE deserve to go to hell, if hell is being accurately described and the people saying "they deserve it" sound demented.
Sorry, IvyViper, but you are using reasoning based on a humanistic standpoint to determine what is morally right for a holy God. That simply never works because these standpoints originate from completely diametrically opposed starting points. I used to attempt to quantify questions such as yours based on a personal/social "moralistic" codex based on my opinions of what I thought were right and wrong. The inherent problem with such thinking is that God is not a man and does not think as fallen, sinful man does--He is holy, just, and faithful. EVERYBODY deserves Hell for sinning against God (Romans 3:23). However, NOBODY has to (John 3:16-18)! Jesus Christ's blood pays for our sins (Romans 6:23) if we leave our life of sin and rebellion and start a new life (become reborn - John 3:3) with Him. That's why Christians celebrate Resurrection Day, aka Easter. Hallelujah!
Problems with this theology: a) Paints God as incomplete... He "needed" to show is wrath, so created imperfect/destined to sin beings? That is not a perfect God. b) The "darkness" that brings out the "light" more is not a good perspective of God either. If He is light, there is no need for darkness to show how good the light actually is. c) Piper never once mentioned "love" as the motive for God to create humans or really at all in this message. Love is the key to who God is. It is central. It is WHO He is. d) I would not be appreciative to a God who says "look at all these sinners going to hell, aren't you glad you aren't one of them?" I would say "no, I love my neighbor as myself, I can't be happy that you picked me and not all those others". God is not vindictive or petty like that. He earnestly desires that all may be saved. (1 Timothy 2:4)
Then who did John see in revelation getting thrown in the lake of fire? Real people or make belief? If they were real then it's obvious to see that God already knows who's going to hell.
Piper does nothing but evade the question. He says there will be no one in hell who has repented, but his doctrine teaches that you can't repent unless God makes you. He also has the cheek to say the bible doesn't EVER state that God predestine people to hell, which is true, but he believes it regardless, because Calvin is a higher authority to him than scripture.
I don't think he evades the question at all. I just think many don't like his response. Yes it is God who grants repentance but he is not obligated to save everyone. That's what makes him a sovereign ruler. He can do what he pleases. That may sound "Unjust" but God is not unjust he is the very definition of Justice. And yes the Bible does not clearly say blatantly that people are "prestined to hell" but there is definitely scriptural support for the doctrine itself. What many people don't understand is that Calvinist are not calvinist because of John Calvin. Calvinist are calvinist because when it comes to biblical exegesis it complety harmonizes with what Calvin taught. Same with Luther, same with Wyclifee.
First, I would like to praise Pastor Piper for trying to answer such a difficult question. He has tried hard and does offer some reasons. However I am still totally unconvinced. Let me make a couple of points. The real question here hinges on a Calvinist view of salvation. Why does God create the vast bulk of human beings for a short finite time here of earth - where they may be happy and fulfilled or more probably where they will not be - and then to consign them to eternal torture of excruciating agony without giving them any chance of avoiding that eternal destiny? If God does that, could we see Him as all-benevolent or would we have to see Him as a monster? John Piper says that the delight and joy of those in Heaven will be all the greater against the black backdrop of the others consigned to perdition. But God could change that backdrop if He wished. Imagine a lottery where if you win you get to live in a palace and everything is perfect but if you lose you have no food and you starve to death. Each week, a new winner takes his or her place in unimaginable luxury and gets an extra kick out of watching the losers die. How sick is that and how sadistic must a person be who could think up a game like that? If I was forced to embrace Calvinism, I don't know if my faith could survive it. Thank the Lord for Jacobus Arminius who used the Bible and reason to develop and structure a system which means Christ died for us all and each of us has the chance to accept the free gift of salvation through God's grace and love.
If I were to accept arminianism while maintaining a proper view of my sin -for the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), idk how I wouldn't be crushed by the weight of that. If one sin deserves death and we all sin many many many times daily, how can people who think one can lose their salvation not think they've lost their salvation or lose it all the time? If one believes one can lose their salvation then they must believe hebrews 6:4-6 says that if you lose your salvation "it is impossible to restore them again to repentance". That would mean if you lose it you could never get it back. Thank God that's not what Hebrews 6 is about since being "enlightened" nowhere in the bible actually means saved, and IF saved then you will not lose your salvation. John 10:27-30 verse 28 "I give them ETERNAL LIFE, and THEY WILL NEVER EVER EVER EVER PERISH, and no one will snatch them out of My hand." Emphasis my own of course to try to really get the message of that clear. And verse 29 brings it home. Anyway, if we are able to lose our salvation, which clearly the scriptures do not teach that, then every single one of us would my friend. None of us would ever have a chance. Jesus didn't die for some of our (the elect, Romans 9) sins. He died for all of them knowing what all we would do. We all break the two greatest commandments every single day man. We don't love God the way we should every single moment every single day and we don't love our neighbors as ourself as we should every single moment every single day. If there's anything we would lose our salvation over, surely it would be from breaking the 2 greatest commandments. Thank God for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. His promises that what He started, He WILL bring it to completion (Philippians 1:6). Without that doctrine, how can any of the other doctrines that go along with salvation be enjoyed if The Lord will not absolutely keep those whom He has saved? What does justification and being made righteous and all the rest matter if we are able to lose it? Understand my friend, salvation starts with The Lord. Repentance is a gift from God. Salvation is maintained by The Lord through the power of His Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirits ministry of sanctification, and ultimately God is the one who brings us to glory. Beginning, middle and end... ALL God. Turn from the heresies of arminianism brother. Although Arminians will deny it, that false doctrine is a very self-righteous doctrine. There's a mindset that comes with it that their sins aren't nearly as big and serious as they are (since I've never met an Arminian who would say they've lost their salvation over the sins they committed just in the first few hours of being awake that day) while not viewing as big and as serious Christ's finished work on the cross.
@@Res187Evil rofl. Wow. Apostasy is a thing. The Bible talks about it. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you "lose" your salvation if you sin. Walking away from God or losing your faith is NOT a single sin you committed ("ops, I took two samples at Costco..."). You want to claim that the entire world of believers for 6,500 years where all heretics until John Calvin saved us with his gospel that he wrote from magical invisible tablets that he read with his magical invisible glasses? Seriously, that makes no sense. Judaism doesn't believe in anything even close to Calvinism and the world didn't even know about Calvinism until the 1500s. I think you've been blinded brother.
@@huntsman528 Reformed Christians believe it's the original Apostles doctrine, and the only one truly taught by scripture. It's not a new concept, just one that was lost for a time while the Catholic Church expanded.
@@ChristopherChavez Even Calvin says Augustine is the only early church father to talk about calvinistic beliefs. And he didn't preach that until the end of his life. It also appears to have come from gnostic and Manichean religions, which is what Augustine believed prior to converting to Christianity.
@@huntsman528 Who said anything at all about Calvin? Everything I wrote on I backed up with scripture & not the words of a man. Although I am reformed in my theology, I do not consider myself Calvinist. Argue against the actual scriptures I used rather than using a strawman fallacy to take attention off the real issue so we can have legitimate, and hopefully beneficial, discourse. I agree apostasy is real. It's clearly in the scriptures, but apostasy only shows the person was never saved to begin with. True born-again Christians saved by the power of the Holy Spirit can not undue what God has done. Unless you want to say mans choices are higher & stronger than Gods...?
Frej von Fräähsen If it causes hatred for anything, it's the sin in our own lives. God hates sin, therefore we (Christians) hate sin; God loves people, so we love people... Christians hate the sin, not the sinner. I'm sorry if you feel it's the other way around. Please look into reading the Gospel, it teaches some amazing things and gives an understanding of what real love is better than any other book you or I can ever read. Luke 6:32-36, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." Also, read 1 John 4:7-21, keep in mind John is talking directly to people that already claim to follow Christendom, so make sure to put it in cultural perspective; it's importance to understand the audience to which he is writing. Hopefully these few verse will give you a small glimpse at what Christianity is about. I would again encourage you to read at least the first 4 parts of the New Testament, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John... then see if you still feel that the Christian belief system is focused on building hatred.
You read a book and claim ownership of, and knowing the thoughts of, a supreme being. I don't acknowledge the authority of the Bible or christians or your so called "god". I am infinitely grateful that I was raised in a rational and secular country that doesn't use god as a legitimizing force for owning guns or killing gays/ blacks/ arabs. Your faith has advocated owning of slaves and violence against others. I will never ever see your lifestyle as a force for good in the world.
Frej von Fräähsen That's all fine and good, the great thing is we are able, each of us, to make that choice for ourselves. The problem is, that we are force fed other things that we "must believe" in order to be considered rational human beings. That in itself, is that opposite of rationality, it's basically thought slavery. People should be allowed to come to their own conclusions based on the evidence they analyze, not what someone tells them to believe. I'm not sure which country you are talking about when you talk about one that legitimizes using force for owning guns, killing gays, blacks, arabs... I think the few theocracies out there are in eastern Asia; so I'm not well versed on them. If you believe Christianity has advocated owning slaves; I would say you have misread or misunderstood many important parts of the Bible. The slavery of the OT and even that which is eluded to in the NT was not the same as slavery in the pre-American Civil War era. I'd encourage you to do research on that believe making vague and less than accurate comments about it. Lastly, read Philemon in the NT. It's a short book of the Bible, specifically verses 15-16. It most definitely does not advocating slavery. I encourage you to read the entire book and speak with a pastor or other Christians on the subject. These conversations are received better in person, rather than this informal youtube messaging.
With all due respect to Pastor John for his faithful ministry....this teaching is diabolical and diametrically opposed to the concept of a loving God. How can a loving God predestine people to hell? How can He give His beloved creation no opportunity to be saved for no other reason than that He 'overlooks' them? The thought is horrifying and not in any way a reflection of His unlimited love for His creation. ‘The Lord is…..patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance.’ 2 Peter 3:9 'The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands ALL people everywhere to repent' Acts 17:30 He would even leave the 99 safely in the fold to seek out the lost. Thank God.
@AVB2 The differences here are: 1. God, by His determined purpose and foreknowledge allowed His sinless son Jesus to take the punishment in our place by dying on the cross, but he was not punished permanently. He rose again and lives forever. 2. Jesus had a choice to not go through with it but chose to do so. 3. Calvinism asserts that sinners who are ‘passed over’ by God (in other words not loved by God) are permanently severely punished without any choice in the matter. This doctrine does not reflect the love of God and turns the unbeliever away. Sad.
@AVB2 I agree, Jesus never disobeyed His Father....because He chose not to. Maybe you overlooked that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.' Hebrews 4:15 Thus he was tempted to sin, but chose not to. For example, He was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, but chose not to yield to temptation. Matthew 4:1-11 He was also tempted to refuse to go to the cross, but chose to go. '....and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.' Matthew 26:39 Jesus faced choices to obey or disobey His Father and so do we, especially whether to be saved or not. May God bless you brother.😀
To understand the question you have to ask, what is hell? Then, what is God's plan for mankind? Note: Any time a Bible teacher says," I believe", run away. All the answers you need are in the Bible.
Eze_18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? It glorifies God to create human beings as sinners and send them to hell, yet He takes no pleasure in sending them to hell, but He decides to create them to send them straight to hell anyway? Makes perfect sense, John.
The Calvanistic view is clearly in the bible. "All my Father GIVES ME will COME to me and I will raise them up on the last day". "The will of him who sent me is that of all he has GIVEN ME I lose NONE"
One thing I don’t believe in, regarding Calvinism, is predestination. I don’t believe it is biblical. Our Lord Jesus Christ desires that NONE should perish and that ALL should come to repentance.
I’m amazed that this video decided to pop up in my recommendations today because I asked God this very same question today. I was angry and I thought this very same question and that if God wouldn’t have made mankind then there would have not been any suffering in life or death but even in knowing that I still wanted to love Him and have a relationship with God. Then God asked me if I could take take their place in hell would I do it? So I said if it was all of them then yes because it would be better for one to suffer than for the many, and God said to me that that is what He did. And when He said that I was ashamed, embarrassed and humbled I could only say fair point I felt so bad. May God bless and strengthen all of you.
“and God said to me that that is what He did”. What do you think this means? I don’t understand what exactly you meant here. Do you mean God told you that no one will actually go to hell?
@@mostawesomeflyer6164 no I believe if you don’t accept Jesus or you take the mark of the beast then you do go to hell. What I think He meant was that Jesus gave us the way out but we have to choose to take it.
Praise God!!! He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the Cross and bare the sins of us ALL. He suffered so we would not have to. However many people choose not to believe or accept this because God also gave us ALL a free will to choose and accept His sacrifice and free gift. Thank you Jesus!!! May God continue to be with you Josh as u keep your eyes on Him
God didn't predestine any of his children for Hell,read the parable of the wheat and the tares and take it literally,not everyone in the world is of God,Jesus planted HIS children,the wheat in the world and the enemy planted his children,the tares in the world,Jesus Christ is going to SAVE ALL OF HIS CHILDREN! and not one of them will be lost. Bob.
@@kritikasampleone7457 I agree with Janet, Christ said MY sheep hear my voice. In other ocassions he told men that they were of their FATHER the devil. Imagine me saying that to someone. Those are strong words. and these are only 2 examples. Its a very deep subject that i would like to know more about... but it does seem that their are children of lucifer. Look at Cain for example, or Nimrod etc. However they are all still Gods creation, but evil is the backdrop to show his glory.
We always try and imply that we are so upright and fair that we would never be like GOD and throw someone in outer darkness to burn in Hell forever and forever. We are more fair and compassionate than GOD can ever be. But it was GOD who gave His only begotten Son to die on a rugged cross for our sins, not us who claim we are so loving and caring. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD, we deserve exactly what we get.
It was also god who made people to be tortured. God sent christ to save us from Himself. It seems so pointless, all of it. None of us asked to be on this earth, yet we all deserve torture? Under Gods own moral code that is pure evil
God can do whatever He desires and wants. That is our position. We can only be humble and listen and obey by and through Him. It is the most difficult subject and anyone who understands this or think he does needs to think again. This is humanlike to think we can but we cant. Just trust in Him. Nothing more we can do. And thats also very difficult to do. For me atleast.
Chilling. In other words,in order for God to be able to display His justice, He has to have some, if not most of the people He created, brought into being for the purpose of being damned. To be fully God, He has to have someone to torture to display Himself. Not only that. Those (not in any way different or deserving from the damned), will have their joys of heaven enhanced as they watch their loved ones and others twist and scream because it could and should have been them also but they were "picked". What a glorious gospel. How wonderful these doctrines of grace. The Saviour once said, "I know you, that you do not have the Love of God in you...."
@@ChristopherChavez Oh I think many(not all) do and would go to the Rom 9 "for this purpose I have raised you up..."argument in order to propose that God has to be able to "display" His wrath and punishment as He wills as part of His Nature. In order for Him to do that, He has to have some/many created for that purpose.
At 2:55 he dodges the essential question that is at the heart of this issue: "by his permission or design, however you want to want to describe it..." Permission vs design is the essential issue, and they are far, far different things. If God grants permission to sin; he grants permission to not sin. If God designed sin and did not give mankind permission to not sin, then God chose that there would be no righteous people and that all of his creation would "deserve to be in hell;" and that they would not have the ability to choose differently. So that would be on God, not on mankind. That's the core problem for Calvinists.
Okay but I see a contradiction here: if we in heaven are humbled because we realize we don’t deserve to be there and that we’re actually no better than the sinners who went to hell, then that implies we deserve to go to hell too. But John started off his answer by saying that there won’t be anyone in hell who doesn’t deserve to be there, implying that they are far worse off than we are. How do we reconcile these two things? If we all are equally deserving of hell, then why does he make a point of saying that the ones who go to hell are especially bad and in full rebellion against God. Doesn’t he also teach that we ALL equally bad and in rebellion towards God?
I didn't hear much exegesis apart from Romans 9:22-23 about wrath. Nothing about "whosoever will" or Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world. He mostly just told us what his theology is. That's not exegesis.
Here is some exegesis then πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων in John 3:16 literally means "everyone believing". There is no Greek equivalent for "whosoever" in the arbitrary sense. This is consistent with the John 1:12-13 that reveals to us that those who believe are born from God and not the will of man.
I actually like John Piper, even if I disagree with him. But since you took it upon yourself to present the case for the Reformed view I'll respond to you. The issue is free will, regardless of the wording. Does God predestine some for heaven and others for hell, or do we determine our destiny through our choices as "everyone believing" would indicate? Your reference to John 1:12,13 supports the free will view IMO. "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Those who receive Him are born of God by choice. Babies born into this world have no choice. Their birth was determined by their parents, so the choice was made for them in contrast to the spiritual birth believers in Jesus experience.
Haha yes I have taken upon myself . Before I respond, I really like John Piper too (especially when it comes to the reformed position) but there are a hand full of things that I do not find my self agreeing with him on such continuationism. If you would like to further the discussion, would you like to have it on private message?
NOBODY is predestined to Hell. Ever. If you think God predestines people to Hell, you are not believing the word of God, nor do you know the heart of God. Please read 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:1-4 for more understanding. How could God grant us free will if He would defeat it by fate/predestination? His will (Jeremiah 29:11-13) for our lives is not always done. Regardless, ultimately, it's not if anyone knows OF Jesus, but how many are truly known by Jesus. (Luke 13:22-28)
Dkabakjian18 Of course the word of God applies to us the same today as it did in ancient times. Are you a cessationist? Do you think God changes His mind? Do you not understand the prophetic gift? Do you reject the Holy Spirit? Your statement about how the passage of Jeremiah does not apply to us today is foolish and reveals a deep lack of knowledge of God's heart for us. (Hebrews 13:8)
Do you think that everything that happens is God's sovereign will? Nobody should. However, God has a plan for our lives just as certainly Satan does. The plan we agree to must come to pass is the one we fulfill. "Many plans a man has in his heart, but it's the Lord who determines his steps." In summation, God's word through Jeremiah was not even realized in the lives of all Jews, but God's promises are always 'Yes and Amen' in Jesus. I fully agree with you in that God does not bless us to simply make us healthy, wealthy, and wise, but He blesses us so His will for our lives can come to fruition.
Your answer is that the god of the bible sends people to eternal suffering just so that he can show off how powerful he is? Why would a good being do that? And how is it good that you get to experience a more intense feeling of grace at the price of other people experiencing eternal suffering? You're literally describing some dystopian nightmare.
You know, My biggest pet peeve is, when in discussion, people get so arrogant and pretend like they talk like a person in a book would - you just end up sounding pretentious. One example is "One must..." or when you say, "My friend". But aside from that, Calvinism or Arminianism - it literally doesn't matter because at the end of the day, the Bible tells us to repent, follow God, loving Him with everything we have and are, and to go out and make disciples. Regardless, we have a job we have to do, that's why Calvinism and Arminianism are hardly salvational issues. Even though they tie directly to salvation, you don't have to believe in one or the other to be saved. At the end of the day, you are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ Jesus, and you are to continue seeking Him and you are to go out and make disciples. You cannot escape the sovereignty of God or the words such as "predestination" or "election". Does God elect some and not others to surely be saved? Yes He does - that is completely scriptural. Are all who are saved a part of the elect? Maybe not, who knows. Does God specifically predestine people go to hell? I personally don't think so, although He, in His sovereignty knows who will accept Him and won't accept Him, but God "Desires that all men be saved" (1 Timothy 2:3,4). The BIG QUESTION: IF, and I say IF, God predestines people to go to Hell, does that make Him evil? Or, if He is sovereign and knows who will go to Hell, but in the end He doesn't save them, is He evil for not saving them? (Hell, eternal damnation, eternal death, whatever you believe - let's just stick with "not saved") *NO*. God is GOOD. To say that He is EVIL for saving some and not others is saying, "I don't believe sin is really that bad". Keep in mind, God is the only One who is good - we are evil and wicked no matter how good we appear unless we are in Christ. If someone dies, and you believed them to be a good person, but they were not sealed in Christ, they were not a good person - they were wicked and evil because their sins were not forgiven. Should you still mourn and be heart broken over their death? Paul certainly was over those who were not saved but died (can't remember where, if you know, let me know! :D). Now, this is hard to be consistent with. If I have a physical, blood sister who dies not knowing Christ, my heart will be broken and I too would want to not go on in life - but it's justice, whether I like it or not. If you say that "It isn't fair for some to be chosen to go to heaven and some go to Hell (or eternal death)" then you have a skewed perspective of sin and how bad it really is because what "isn't fair" is that God is giving you a pass from death and forgiving you having come down as the Son and died for you, taking your place - THAT is NOT fair. Calvinist, or Arminian, it does not matter. We know what constitutes salvation and we know what we are to do on this earth - love God with all your heart, seek Him unto the end, and make disciples. If you choose to say, "Oh I'd never evangelize cause they will get saved no matter what" then you are horribly deceived and, whether you are right or wrong, you are disobeying God. Or if you choose to say, "Once saved, always saved, grace abounds so I'll keep on sinning and have the best of both worlds!" I would urge you to reexamine if you truly have salvation. It is good to pick a side and learn whether or not you would agree with eternal security or falling away, but once it starts affecting your relationship with Christ negatively or your obedience to Him - it has become a problem and a terrible, terrible distraction having now become a tool of the Enemy to fool you. Be wise and continue in the faith! Blessings from ya boiiiii Aaron.
It’s sad because people like Piper are more willing to support Calvinism by the scriptures then to teach truth even when it contradicts Calvinism because of what he has been taught in seminary
Proverbs 19:11b "It is to one’s _glory_ to _overlook_ an offense." The more offenses God overlooks, the more God forgives and restores, the more glory God gets. God doesn´t get glory from eternally torturing people nor from letting them walk into eternal torture themselves. That sort of thing destroys God´s glory and makes him out to be the devil.
Calvinism sounds purely evil to me. You can't preach God's grace and God's love while simultaneously believing that you are chosen and the man next to you isn't chosen by the God of the universe.
God called every human to be saved ...But few accept ...Jesus taught against calvanism when HE said preach the Gospel to EVERY human and he/she who believes will be saved
Calvinism is basically Augustinian theology taken to its logical conclusions. A lot of Augustinian theology is inspired by the Manichean Gnosticism of his life before he converted to Christianity. Calvinism is in many ways the Gnosticisation of Christianity.
@@nickoliphant8646 God wrote all of human history before time and we are all the characters living out what He wrote for us.Ps 139;16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.
He definitely did not answer the question. The subject of the question is how is God glorified by sending some to an everlasting eternal life of torment? He talked around the circumference of the question. Perhaps another way of asking the same question is are all people pre-destined to go to hell? If yes then what makes the difference why some are going to heaven? If some are not pre-destined to go to heaven then the remainder are “pre-destined” by a loving God, for hell so his answer should have been a simple yes. But more importantly how is God glorified by predestining some to an everlasting eternal torment.
Here's the answer someone (a reprobate) might give on that day . . . I had no choice; I've found out, since dying, that you O God, predestined me to be on my way to hell now and there's nothing I could have done about it... because I now know that you didn't choose to 'cause me' to be born again and repent... I don't understand it God!?... With respect O Lord, I know I deserve to be here, but I didn't ask to be born... I was born broken... Into a broken world where so much goes against the knowledge of You... A world where it is so easy to disbelieve and be governed and guided by immediate sensual gratification... and so hard to believe and choose the good... It's not fair... At all... Throw me in the fire O Lord ! If you were a God that interacted with His creation in a way that all other Christians - bar the Calvinists - claim that you do... This would be fair... But you - through NO DOING OF MY OWN - determined me to do all that I did on earth, for the sole purpose of bringing glory to Yourself now in my "just" condemnation ? If I had a mirror on me now O God, I would point it back at you, and in justice, You surely, in truth, would be the one Who justly consigned Yourself to the flames... Calvinism is proof of just how important it is for us to feel "safe" within the consensus of an interpretive tradition... and the joy that comes through being part of something bigger than ourselves. Any of us can come under dodgy teaching, and John Calvin's novel system (because he was at a pivotal and influential moment in history) unfortunately received cult like reverence among certain reformers and has thus influenced many many thousands afterwards. The real consensus of the mind of the Church on the matters of foreknowledge, predestination and the place of grace and free will in the entirety of salvation was clearly reached and taught amongst the post apostolic and Ante - Nicene Father's. The whole of the ancient church in both the east and the west, and also the majority of Protestants today, utterly reject Augustine's novel view of predestination in the early 5th century, and the "determinism" of Calvin in the 16th. Arguing with a fan of reformed / deformed theology is like arguing with a non Christian cultist (though obvs "Calvinists" are deeply consevative and Christian) ... You can't reason with someone who's brainwashed. They "swallow" the hard pill of "the terrible doctrine" out of reverance for God. They have also received a very warped and lopsided view of Christian history which "seems" to uphold Augustine and Calvin as the heroes and bastions of "true orthodoxy"... (oh the irony) ... a history lesson which is bias and has no actual basis in reality. (the JW's / Arians would have more of a case from history, and their doctrines (though wrong) make more Scriptural, philisophical and logical sense than those of some of the reformers) Divine determinism - to the point that Calvin took it - is irrational and horrific. In love ! Peace to all in Christ X
You don’t seem to understand the Sovereignty of God, nor does it seem that you have any idea of His holiness. You have constructed an argument to your own self-justification. How does this help you?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9:22-23, NASB)
he is just because He has extended his grace and eternal life to ALL humans, but we all have free will as humans to choose God, but not all will choose Him.....
Under Calvinist belief, God decrees everything - God decrees sinners exist and be in a state of Rebellion. John Piper says no one in hell will have an excuse. Well doesn't it seem like a pretty good excuse that God decreed them to be that way? I have never seen a Calvinist answer this except to say this is somehow justice so God can show His wrath forever. Is this Good that God should purpose the universe such that endless torment&torture would exist? And this is glorious? Glory for God because He decrees sinners be eternally tortured for doing exactly as He decreed? NO
Amazing to me that this could in any way reflect scripture. The deserving only go to hell, yet Piper espouses that no ability is in mankind except by the foreordained will of God. Evil and sinning are fulfilling the will of God.
Here's a thought. Mankind is outrageous. So it is God's decision to redeem whoever He wants to instead of simply throwing us all away. Since we are slaves of the flesh but have some limited free will, God knows you personally. Knows what you will do and will think and how you will respond to grace and truth. Logically, knowing who will respond fruitfully, they are chosen, elected, for heaven.
@@TheFinalJigsaw For God so loved the elect, and only the elect, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever was predestined to believe in him should not perish. Meanwhile, everyone else was created for the sole purpose of occupying Hell. Yeah, that’s quite a gospel message. That’s why Calvinists hide their true beliefs when evangelizing. There is no Gospel under Calvinism. If you’re elect, you were never in danger of going to Hell. If you’re not of the elect, then there is no good news, and you never had a Savior.
Guys, the very basic thing with calvinism: The Called/Church/believers in Christ and the message regarding salvation, will be saved. Before creation of the world, God established the destination, it was predetermined, for those he calls (those He knows/those who know Him--those in an intimate relationship with Him) to justify and glorify. Basically you're chosen if you believe in Him.... We have grace, we need to take it and have faith in Jesus that He died for your sins and that you're saved as a result(Jesus is God), you can just jump onto it and voila. (not gonna get too much into stuffs, but yea, just study and realize that things in the bible aren't just vainly written there) Hope this helps in any way. :)
1. Revelation 22:17 says, “Whosoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.” Calvinism, however says it actually means: The ones I (God) chose, will take of the water of life. 2. John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: For God so loved the ones He chose, that He gave His only begotten Son, that those He chose WILL have everlasting life. 3. Joshua 24:15 says, “…choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve…But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: There is no choice, rather, God will decide whether or not one will serve the Lord. 4. 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” Calvinism, however, says this verse actually means: The Lord is not willing that any of the ones He has chosen should perish, but that all of the ones He has chosen should come to repentance. 5. Matthew6:8-10 says, “…therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done.” This is a prayer. If God’s will was already being done as per Calvinism, then why do we need to pray that it will happen? 6. Hebrews 3:12-14 says, “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end…” This is a call to not harden our hearts and depart from the living God, and to hold our confidence in Christ steadfast until the end. According to Calvinism, we can’t make that decision; God has already decided. 7. John 1:29 says, “The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: The Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the few that God has chosen. 8. 1st Timothy 1:15 says, “This is a faithful saying …that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners…” Calvinism, however says this verse actually means: Jesus came into the world to save (ONLY) the sinners God has already chosen. 9. 1ST John 19 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, the ones He has chosen WILL confess their sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness. Calvinism calls confession a synergistic work; meaning a work of faith added to what God has already done. Also, there is no IF in Calvinism. 10. Revelation 3:20 says, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.” Calvinism says, this verse really means, “…when the one I have chosen hears my voice, he will open the door…”
Most unconvincing. An analogy: if my two sons recklessly refuse to wear lifejackets, and their boat capsizes and they are drowning, it is ludicrous to suggest it puts me in a good light at all for choosing to save one and not the other! Wouldn't the saved son's gratitude be shadowed by the shame of having a monstrous father? John casts a very bad light on God. I wonder if he really believes, deep down, what he's saying, or whether his assent to Calvinistic systematic theology is just intellectual, because he can't see any way around the biblical texts?
John Mackey III Wrong context? Why? Can not be used an example? I just did! Can be used in reverse? If it can be used in reverse, then phrase it in reverse so we can see what you mean.
Analogies where one is a father and then comparing that to the relationship between man and God is invalid. You do not stand above your sons the same as God stands above creation. If you don't save both you are a bad father you are a bad father for using them as such a poorly executed analogy. How about you use playdoh as an analogy. I doubt you will see what i mean. So in reverse. It glorifies God when He punishes those who freely choose to be His enemy. God having not guaranteed their salvation gets glory in their condemnation.
John Mackey III You have used the words "freely choose" in your above rebuttal. If God has "chosen" some for heaven and others for hell, as you teach, how could those he did not choose be responsible and deserve such a terrible fate? Sorry, but again, I believe the scriptures clearly teach that God LOVES ALL PEOPLE and his Holy Spirit speaks to ALL people concerning the need for the Savior, Jesus Christ (We are talking about those who have heard the Gospel of Jesus). It is man's "choice" to follow God's Spirit to the cross or he can reject from following Christ and refuse God's wooing at his own peril. There are NO theological gymnastics required in this position.
