Hubris & Chaos: A Conversation with Rory Stewart (Episode  

Sam Harris and Rory Stewart - brilliant.

Glad more outside the UK will hear Rory. He’s well to the right of me, but a truly good guy with so much knowledge of the Middle East and politics.

For me, this is easily the best episode of the last 6-12 months.

This guest is outstanding

Rory Stewart is one of those sensible humans who have the ability to make great changes in world politcs if given the chance

I love Rory‘s podcast. He’s a fascinating person.

I think it’s becoming more and more not possible to not be a member. This episode is going to force me to subscribe!

Rory Stewart shines a light on why western nations got it wrong in trying to help developing nations find their feet.

Great, 2 great men. Love Rory, he's 100% genuine, he was our local MP in Cumbria

Sam, Afghanistan is a country of disparate mostly uneducated tribes. It has never had a central government. That makes it pretty much impossible to " Nation Build " there.

Harris has phenomenal guests!!

This was great. I do a lot of walking and am very impressed with his achievements.

Brilliant man.

His podcast "the rest is politics" is great :)

Thanks.

Reading Rory’s latest book at the moment. Great read.

If the Chinese ever get a mind to go into Afghanistan, you will see nation building. They dont play around.

ayyy was hoping for this crossover, will you go on rest is politics also I hope?

Courage. For me, these important philosophical questions begin with courage

Great conversation.

This was such an incredibly important episode. An amazing, very informative, and educational chat.

I'm doubtful that we could have just kept a light footprint in Afghanistan and support a government friendly to use with just a light footprint. I think our experience in Afghanistan showed that lightly supporting a friendly government leads to that government losing more and more territory. The whole point to the surge was that low numbers of foreign forces weren't enough to stop the slow collapse of the Afghan government.

This was a really interesting episode.

Best PM we never had! What a missed opportunity😩 To think that clown Boris Johnson beat him to the top job!! Unfathomable

If only Rory had won the Tory leadership, what a very different country we might have

I recall all too well seeing the "Children's Crusade" that was the Coalition Provisional Authority show up in Baghdad. Mostly Capitol Hill staffers on 12 week resume booster tours running organizations or initiatives with fancy sounding names but were really nothing more than bloviating nonsense. The Iraqi's were like, "What the F....?" All I could do was shrug and try to look sympathetic.

It is said we get the political leaders we deserve...

Afghanistan is geographically so isolated that it will never become a liberal and capitalist country. The US had to import everything it needed to build the roads and the infrastructure. There was simply nothing in Afghanistan. Also Afghanistan doesn't have river systems that would connect villages. That's why all these regions are disconnected from the big city. It makes governance harder, there is no real unity, etc. That also explains why the US spend so much money in Afghanistan. If it was a place like Korea, it would have needed only a few hundred billion dollars to develop. In Korea everyone lives in the same city ^^

Two of my favourite people to hear talk, talking to each other. Thank you, God that I don't believe in. I only wish it were longer! (And I'm a subscriber!)

This the episode Rory referenced in his own podcast where he said Sam “would not let it go” regarding how he feels jihadism is more relevant than Rory’s view that radical nationalism is, as threats go. I’ve listened several times now and I’d say that’s a regrettable exaggeration that unjustly maligned Sam. Rory’s a great intellectual and I hope he’ll correct that mis characterization.

Nice to see Rory breaking out of his bubble a bit. Be even nicer if he did it in his own podcast which I’ve now sadly entirely given up on!

There can be a way to break bias in social media and reduce the power of people with large followers to influence opinion on social media platforms. Similar to comments section, we can add a views (viewpoints or connections or context) section - Where anyone can add any view related to the post and people can like and react to the view just like the post. Context 1/ #keyword combo : specific context to the post in limited words like in twitter Context 2 : Most important part of the context section could be checking the balance b/w different context as a percentage or in a pie chart. This distribution could tell if the discussion is biased or balanced, majorititarian view or nuanced. Multiple inferences could be drawn from the distribution of context, views, sides or connections.

I remember watching the contest for Prime minister with Rory and not getting any sense of how brilliant he was, its a shame because we would have been lucky to have him as pm

Yes!!

Interesting conversation, interesting guest. Wish I had the wherewithal and desire--given SH's string of insightful yet dangerously lopsided takes on the current Middle East debacle to subscribe. Insightful in the sense of the his take on the problem of Jihadism. Lopsided in his glaring refusal to both-side the Israeli-Hamas conflict. Would've loved to hear Rory Stewart's thoughts on the intersectionality between Arab ultranationalism, patriotism and Jihadism ("cult of martyrdom" to use Sam's quasi-derogatory lingo).

omg this is a dream crossover for me! thanks guys!!!!!

“It never struck me that you’re particularly empathetic or interested in the manners of other people’s cultures. You give the impression that the US has the right system and everybody should be following an American model”. Well, no shit, Rory.

we need a 'rory posing under a random tree with sad face' emoji

Good episode . I’ll search on give well. Another point: I think the problem with Islam is not so much martyrdom but to be an explicitly a conquering religion.

If you want to know what true oratory and charm are, look up Rory’s speech to Parliament about hedgehogs.

In many countries the choice is between a secular dictatorship and an Islamist dictatorship. Take your pick.

I think his point on Afghanistan being less hopeless is kinda BS. In 2020, it was already set, we had negotiated our exit the problem was more than the Taliban had decided to not honor that deal and there was no Afghan army.

Wisdom

rorys response to why WW2 wasn't analogous doesn't make sense The United States didn't act as a "midwife" in Japan. We literally rewrote their laws, abolished their state religion and the worship of their empower We even had to write their constitution then shove it down their throat

I agree with the other commenters, great episode, had a good 1.5 hour walk with it.

18:00 "Women in these villages had NEVER been more than 3 HOURS WALK from there villages, it was a WONDERFUL,WONDERFUL country" There is something very very off with people like Rory. I get the impression he likes being a novelty in these places. Afghanistan is hell on earth, but somehow, a wonderful place. That makes no sense.

On Rory's comment about the confrontational style of American police, I wonder if this is because US police deal with more violent crime and people with guns compared to other western countries.

The guest's deemphasis on the allure of jihadism was slightly surprising. He even said it was highly dangerous walking through thise countries too...

🔥

Rory isn't wrong about a sort of militant nature of the relationship between a populace and police and military and other extensions of the state with Americans. America is one of the most low trust societies in the world (Sometimes for good reason, other times not) because of our founding narrative. It's situationally our super power and our worst weakness. American exceptionalism is real, but it is a sword that cuts both ways.

Sam, you should really go on the Rest is Politics and try to explain your position on islamic extremism. It is subject that is often avoided in the UK

"We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us” Golda Meir

Rory is one of the few Tory's worth listening to

What a beautiful voice Rory has.

Stewarts experienced and insightful. Also perhaps arrogant. Is this arrogance justified? Perhaps. Off putting however- which makes him a failed policy advocate

I suppose Rory would suggest the same approach to Hamas ... Which won't work either.. but a good conversation.

I l have great respect for Sam. More than I do practically any other public figure. But I do think he missed a few very consequential and relevant points, with respect to the problem of Islam. Like, how is it that we have a Nationwide phenomenon in the UK of Muslim grooming gangs? Or that, where slavery exists still why is it always in a Muslim country? Or that, when a girl in Afghanistan is raped, we have many videos of the father being the chief one to stone her? Or similarly that, in these cherished but mismanaged places, very usually by the people themselves, that clitterectomies are still the norm? Sam is so good, far better than me, at arguing against Islam. But being familiar with what Mr Stewart says when in conversation with his Liberal (party name) allies I didnt think he pushed back far enough.

Its a shame that the whole free segment was taken up with Rory criticising a position Sam does not hold. He seems to think he is posing counter points, but not realising that they are only countering what he incorrectly presumes Sam, and many of us, think. Surely he realises that when someone criticises violent jihadism, that criticism doesn't extend to peaceful moderate Muslims from any place in the world?

Every American should listen carefully for a few minutes after 21:07 1) The US was hopelessly idealist in these wars 2) Americans in the ground were not really interested in learning about middle eastern cultures. I get this vibe from even fairly liberal friends in the states. 3) US soldiers were acting like bullies on power trips (just like US police) and this turns the local civilians against you.

Rory: "the low cost of having a US presence in Afghanistan." Really? 20 years worth of a bargain. Practically free nation building on our part. Fascinating individual, but sugarcoating the US cost for being there is pure BS.

Good chat. Current events have a lot of us thinking about world order and 'Western Hegemony'. Hubris is a great description, yet the thought of a Russian-Chinese-Iranian world order is frightening, so long may Western hegemony last, for everyones sake.

The AfD Party in Germany is not "Neo-Nazi". They are rightwing yes, but certainly not Nazi. Their main Spokesperson is a lesbian who is married to a Sri Lankan woman, Of all the Party leaders in German politics she would be the first to be forced on a train, so much for "Nazi". Most of the AfD positions would have been right at home in the CDU 15 years ago, the former conservative party which essentially became a second social democrat party shifting to the left under their Chairwoman Angela Merkel. They vacated the conservative space with no existing party at the time to fill that position, until the AfD. They are smeared by the left leaning German state media as rightwing extremists. Don't believe anything the ARD or ZDF tv stations say when it comes to domestic politics.

Imagine the UK we could have had if Rory had won.

Sam, you should have gotten Rory to check your last podcast before you posted it

"The need for "charities" is a consequence of a failed economic/political/religious system." Testa

I've started reading your work in my teenage years well and continued to do so well into my late 20s. Now that I'm in my early 30s, any admiration and/or inspirations I've glimpsed from you was sniffedafter I've heard your take on the recent conflict in Gaza. As an ex-muslim American I wholeheartedly agreed with your position on Israel but then again I was a naive teenager, what's your excuse? I shared my skeptic open-minded attitude as it came naturally to me, until I realized you were deluding yourself with that. You can't advertise yourself having these attributes yet have this inexusable gigantic blindspot for the situation in Palestine. So yes, it took this one issue for me to view you the same way you view Bret Weinstein and I hope this comment finds its way to you. Perhaps you'd start doing some real thinking on your own and reevaluate your morally bankrupt and factually incorrect views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and start acting like an actual humanist again.

Not sure what gets cut from this version, but in the full cast, Sam's blinkered views on "Muslim = bad" get schooled

Imagine walking 25 or 30 miles every day for months on end. Hard core.

Just imagine: This person could have been Prime Minister for last few years. Instead, Tory voters (and later, actual, real British people) looked at.............Boris.......Fu***ng......Johnson. And thought "YES! THAT is the person you shall lead us!" Don't anyone ever try to tell me that we Brits are a serious people. Our sense of humour and self deprication is clearly gargantuan.

Two of my favourite people - thrilled that they've had this conversation!

Wonderful guest. Rory a wonderfully intelligent, insightful and measured person and his view on these issues never fails to give me insight on the Middle East. I am glad Sam still has guests on his show that don’t necessarily agree with him. Even if he repeatedly keeps bring up his obsession with Jihadists. Rory clearly shows a lot of Sam’s blind spots when it comes to the complexity of these issues. Hats off to Sam for bringing Rory on and actually having a conversation that has some worth.

The guest has a very relativistic politician’s non-answer to the theocratic motivation of jihad

I have never heard someone so passive aggressive and strange as Rory Stewart. He hesitates prior to every word and then says something stupid!

get this poor guy some soup 🍲

I feel like Sam is having his perception of the problem of Islam in particular, which is challenged more and more with good effect. He is right on many things, but one wonders if it's the right thing to focus on necessarily at this moment in history.

Me likey

Quite disappointed in Rory Stewart tbh - I listened to the whole episode and thought it was a decent conversation. However I listened to the most recent podcast of Rory Stewart’s, The rest is leading, and he referred to Sam as ‘an American podcaster’ who was obsessed with asking him about Islam and then insinuating he was Islamophobic.

I won't be listening to this first 30 minutes - because it is a very inefficient use of anyone's time. It's like watching only the first 30 minutes of a movie.

17:00 The reason Germany and Japan were able to rebuild their societies was because they were ethnically homogeneous nation-states. Afghanistan and Iraq are the exact opposite. They are jigsaw puzzles of different religions, languages, and ethnicities. Of course they were doomed to fail. Every multi-ethnic Empire that couldn't assimilate it's subjects has failed.

{ Just as God first brought you into being, you will be brought to life again. Some are guided, while others are destined to stray. They have taken devils as their masters instead of God, thinking they are rightly guided.}

The podcast is not free, its like one of those internet service providers or streaming platforms that when you want to cancel the button is not activated, so dishonest mm

“Rules Based Order”. Lol. Whose rules?

divine central authority unity with substantive human rights choice is international law, which is being violated by UN political government / two state solution

Lee Strobel converted me from a strong believer to an atheist with his poor arguments. The guest here has given me a strong shove away from nearly every topic he advocated for. Sam had a very unusual tact in this one. This was far more like an interview than a conversation. His response of "hmm" for just about every American foreign policy decision of the last decade left a lot to be desired.

1:00 he says nipple

What an opening bio!!!! WOW

Oh no, I had hoped it might have been a different Rory Stewart. What a damp rag this man is.

Think what a better world we would have if this man had beaten Boris for the uk premiership. We can only hope he chooses to return to politics.

Don't trust this guy. He sounds briliant, but as a politician he essentially fought for the super wealthy. Look at his voting record, he is like Mitch Mcconnell. The eloquence of his speech does not negate the horror of his actions.

I don’t care how many miles you walked. You are complicit in the crimes against the British working class committed by the party you were a member of. I have nothing but contempt for you.

I feel like Rory is slightly underestimating the unique power of Islam in encouraging violence among its adherents.

Sry dude, fan of Sam, but it's like he doesn't get the whole deglobalization era at all. This has been in the works for a while. Gotta get your Peter Zeihan on bruh.

Rory Stewart might be the last honest conservative either side of the Atlantic

Why didn’t Rory talk about all the waste and corruption in Afghanistan, which ended with the US withdrawal that saved hundreds of millions of dollars?

Your beliefs contradict your own beliefs. It’s baffling you don’t realize this.

The reason not to evacuate US troops in such abrupt chaotic non beneficial for US nor people of Afghanistan are pretty much known and covered in this podcast, but would be interesting to learn how some such strong organization with many smart people fail to do it in a right way that guaranteed most beneficial gradual process ? Has this failure been analyzed thoroughly?

"We did spend the 20 years in Afghanistan, with very little to show for it." - well, yeah, for the reasons explained and because you kept the same social and cultural assumptions throughout. Strangely enough, not everyone wants to be an American, and the US spent more than a decade in Vietnam proving it there too.

I am going to ask you a question, and I am going to predict the answer you will have pop in your mind at first, and predict that will be a wrong answer. This works on most people and you can try if for yourself on others to see too, its an interesting conversation starter. A bat and a ball together cost 1.10, the bat costs 1.00 more then the ball, how much did the ball cost? You might have an answer of ten cents flash in your head right away with bias inaccurate fast mind but if you check that answer with your slow but more accurate conscious awareness, you can see that answer is wrong but it takes effort to do. The answer of ten cents is not the right answer but most people have that pop in their head because of the fast thinking mind that we rely on most of the time. The fast unconscious mind is taking everything in and trying to make sense of it really fast. Its 11 million bits a second. But sometimes it makes mistakes. The slow conscious mind is 40-50 bits and lazy but it can check things and bringing the unconscious mistake to conscious awareness it can correct it. The next thing to understand is about carl jung and the 4 ways the unconscious complex he called shadow deals with reality. The shadow is an unconscious complex that is defined as the repressed and suppressed aspects of the conscious self. there are constructive and destructive types of shadow. Carl jung emphasized the importance of being aware of shadow material and incorporating it into conscious awareness lest one project these attributes onto others. The human being deals with the reality of shadow in 4 ways. Denial, projection, integration and/or transmutation. Now I believe what is happening when a question that exposes a conflict in a belief, idea, something that someone said, or even about someone they idolize and the question gets avoided, that is the fast unconscious mind going into denial and the response is often a projection. This also can trigger and emotional response activating the amygdala more and the pre frontal cortex less where rational conscious thought is said to happen and the amygdala starts to get the body to flood itself with chemicals/hormones. Its like the fast mind knows conscious awareness will say its wrong. so it blocks it off to defend itself from admitting its wrong. in cases of denial and because it blocked off the rational mind, the responses are often irrational. Like personal attacks do not address the issue or answer the question. I think we can agree people have a very hard time now days admitting when they are wrong, I am not exempt from this myself I do realize. And we can see how badly questions avoidance effects us if you watch political meetings and watch them avoid questions all day long. Ok, so the first thing to go over is denial as that is the main one I expose with questions. A disowning or refusal to acknowledge something I think is a good definition for it here. There is a really good 2 minute video I use as an example of this. A streamer named vegan gains claiming lobsters have brains after some one said he can eat lobsters because they do not have brains. He googles it and starts to read what it says. When he gets to the part where is says neither insects nor lobsters have brains, he skips it and says they literally are insects then skips over that line and continues to read the rest. Just like in the fast thinking video, his fast mind already read that line and refused to acknowledge it in unconscious denial, and just skipped it. The person then tells him he skipped it and he reads it again and sees the line this time. Still being defensive of his claim and refusing to accept he was wrong, he tried to discredit the source and its the lobster institute of maine. If you would like to see the video for yourself its 2 minutes by destiny clips and the video is called " Destiny Reacts To Vegan Gains Ignoring Search Result That Contradicts Him". Justin turdo avoiding the question of how much his family was paid by the we charity 6 times in a row I think is denial as well. I think jordan peterson not being able to answer his own question of does he believe god exists and asking what do and you mean then saying no one knows what any of those words mean while being seemingly angry is think is another really good example of denial... and projection. And while JP find those words difficult, other people understand them easy. Even he does pretty much any other time they are used. So projection is next up. Psychological projection is a defense mechanism people subconsciously employ in order to cope with difficult feelings or emotions. Psychological projection involves projecting undesirable feelings or emotions onto someone else, rather than admitting to or dealing with the unwanted feelings. Many times a mind in denial will use projections for responses. Someone getting mad and telling the other person to not interrupt when they have been doing that a lot themselves would be an example. I have done this myself. The people who tell me I dont understand my own questions and my point is wrong when they do not even know what the point is are all examples as well. I ask them to steel man my position to show then understand my point and they just avoid that question as well clearly showing they do not understand my point. Now we have integration and/or transmutation. Integration is when you bring an unconscious behavior into conscious awareness and accept it. I know that I interrupt people talking sometimes even though I think that is wrong to do. I have a conscious awareness of it, but I have not been able to completely change the behavior.... yet. That is where transmutation comes in. Transmutation is to completely change that unconscious behavior. From being impatient to being patient, of from distrust to trust, hate into understanding and love even. So was this understandable or confusing? if you understand it, do you think its possibly true? Do you have any questions? If you have any tips I am would gladly listen.

Rory Stewart, Sam?! Now I'm a Brit and very well aware him. It's very clear now Sam that you are in echo chamber, of all the British people you could get on, you get someone like this. Im going to listen, but I presume you are going to agree on everything.

Finally a british guest who actually understands how important the EU is. It would be good to get his thoughts about that, instead of banking on Douglas Murray's nonsense.