I'm begging Blizzard to fix this Mythic+ Leaver Loophole asap... 

Seems like a LOT of comments are being left totally missing the point of this video. I had hoped to raise awareness on the amount of players who feel pressured to leave keys, even if they don't want to, because they think people are out there judging you based on whether you have untimed keys on your sheet. This is a loophole in the system, and obviously does not erase the failed key that just happened, and is tantamount to cheating in my book, so I feel like Blizzard really needs to act. Sorry if I failed to convey that message, but I would really appreciate any discussion to stay focused on that, and not just general leaving etc.

I just play. i accept the first 4 peeps to join my regardless of gear score, rating or meta picks. Most people out here just trying to play the game and i think the community forgets that. Sometimes I get burnt and get a dickhead pally or dh that flames everyone for little mistake or even stuff thats their fault. But usually I get some chill peeps just trying to play. Too many peeps in the M+ community think they are a pro player out here trying to win the superbowl of M+ when they should remember why they started playing in the first place. FUN, thats why i like joining low keys to help peeps that are trying to improve and enjoy the games still. i remember doing M+ for the first time and was so nervous to even que for groups cause i knew i didnt know shit and those are the people worth helping now that i do, not the 2000k plus people that act like the stanley cup is on the like in every 18 key.

i have never seen sommone checking number of failed key i feel like this is more a dps stuck in group finder trying to rationalize why they are not taken when the obvious answer is to much dps for to few tank / healer

The part I hate is that most of these runs when someone leaves mid key and you just 4 man it anyway the person who left still gets gear -.-

If I ever check someone's io, I actually tend to choose people who may have some untimed keys because it tells me they stick around. People who have like 0 untimed keys are too sus for me and imo I always have doubt inviting those with perfect keys because they're probably exactly those people who leave for any reason.

last fortified week we did a 26 everbloom. 4 deaths overall. we where on the endboss, the math said we would prob be 30 -40 sec overtime. the dh in the grp said "nope im out, cant have untimed keys on my board". usually if someone leaves i dont get mad because most of the time on our keys you could see that the key aint going to happen so i think "thats life gotta upgrade it and go again". but that dude...if thats how most people feel most of the time this is a way bigger problem than i thought...

untimed keys in your IO profile just means you actually stick to the end, instead of leaving at the first sign of trouble.

Good points raised. I have a neutral view about this. While I completely agree players should be punished for leaving keys, I feel showing the number of leaves from a player would cause a new toxic system where players are now forced to endure keys they have no intention of being in due to issues faced in the group - toxicity, progress, time efficiency, etc. Here's my solution instead that punishes players and it revolves under leaver penalty timer. But instead of the old fashioned leaver timer from pvp which is 30 minutes. A M+ leaver timer can be designed around the dungeon timer. If a player leaves at the start of a 32 minute dungeon at say around a 30 second mark. The 31 minutes 30 seconds of the remaining dungeon timer is added to a decay pool. The decay pool stacks up to 3 (after the player has left 3 dungeons in a 24 hour period) and takes effect as a leaver timer who is then barred from joining the M+ group list for the same amount of time as they left the 3 prior dungeons. If a player leaves 2 dungeons but finishes every dungeon in that 24-hour period, they will never trigger the silence for the day, after a 24 hour mark (daily reset time), the decay pool resets back to 0. This forces players to leave say 2 dungeons at most in a given 24 hour period for whatever reason but if they continue to do so after the 3rd, the decay timer silences them for a good 1 hr 30 minutes +. This system also accounts for any disconnection, emergencies, etc. as it gives the player 2 tries before they are given the M+ silence. And it also forces the player to complete the dungeons after the 2 tries they are given everyday. The penalty system can also be stacked beyond the 1st day if the player is found leaving 3 dungeons in a row everyday. The silence timer then stacks multiplicatively (for 2 days in a row of leaving 3 dungeons = 3 hours instead of 1 hour 30, on the 3rd day of leaving 3 dungeons, its now at 4 hour 30 minutes) and resets every week on reset. Additionally, they could reward players that have never left the dungeon for the week with a random high ilvl reward cache similar to the cache that is given for the weekly 5 M+ cache.

I feel like when I pushed high keys ( Legion) there were so few of us that you had to be nice and only on high keys then was score ever concidered. I feel like during BFA when bad players discovered RaiderIO with the combination of people wanting to take shortcuts it breed a new form of stupid where people would check your score on +7s. There is a competitive side that is fun, but people confuse that what it means to be competitive and what it means to be toxic

Great video. People dont have patient on talking in chat while the time its ticking. They just get pissed and start raging.

Yep it's a perception problem when players leave keys for this reason - only 2 scenarios where someone might check (stalk?) your rio profile for untimed runs.. 1)Applying for high-end m+ team / raiding guild (just to confirm your io score is legit, and not a result of mass spamming/bricking keys all season) 2)Flame war in chat #2 is prob the stronger motivator - maybe if a group is failing a key, and blame starts getting thrown around in chat.. They check eachother's rio profiles, and use untimed runs as fodder for the flame war.

A 2nd type of score could exist for total dungeons completed, where there is a score for highest level dungeons completed like we have right now and then a 2nd score for total dungeons finished with some seasonal overall score where every dungeon rewards 100 points or whatever, regardless of difficulty or time. For example I have 115 dungeons done on my warlock this season from +2 to +23's, i'd have a 11500 seasonal dungeon score and a io rating of 2900. (It would kinda highlight players that finish alot of keys, but its a terrible idea to have another score system for the playerbase to poorly use) Other idea is (and I think you had this idea originally) to copy what they did to player portraits in PvP, where you can unlock increasingly higher tier portrait badges the more M+ you play even only a casual level, season after season, maybe even add the pvp style mounts you only get after some absurd long grind, but finishing dungeons is required. I feel like the only way to not solve but reduce the leaver issue is to just bait the player with.. stuff.

I'm over 3k rio. I only leave if it's obvious that we aren't gonna be able to finish the key or if it's going to take like 20 minutes longer than the timer. Obviously you'd like to at least 2 chest every key in the 18-20 bracket but people make mistakes or have alts or maybe new to the that level of keys. But I also value my own time, there's no way I'm staying for every key if there's no point in prolonged suffering. About leaving keys because it'll show unfinished on your record? If that's so much of a problem for someone they must be playing really high level keys like 25+ and should find a guild or a stable group to play with. Nobody would check if you didn't time some keys if you're queuing for 20s, people look at score and item level and that's all there is to it. If anyone does actually go for a background check on such a key they should be sent to a mental hospital.

While I support the idea of showing started keys vs completed keys, this idea does not factor in who actually left the key (for whatever reason). I pugged up to 3194 i.o as a DH and haven‘t started a lot of keys, but the only key I left was a Fall key where the whole party aside of me died twice on Manifest timeways with 60-70% boss hp to go. However this week I started 3 keys and only finished one because both times the healer left after the first sign of trouble, in this scenario one player punishes 4 other „innocent“ (maybe 3, depending how badly s1 aggrevated the leaver).

hey man, love your videos and good perspectives. I left before MOP, came back during SL. I don’t recall people leave dungeon in the old days unless after multiple tries there is no hope to finish it. The first time I see people leave a M+ was during my first 13 run in SL. I was confused why they left, and now it’s quit normal to me. I see this is pure economic reason. Because people want to cut sunken cost they don’t see a key can be timed. I think blz needs to still give something like +1 IO even its untimed

I leave keys when I'm tired of dealing with a clueless group that can't press their buttons correctly. Why should I have to handhold people in a 20 upward key? Perfect example. I depleted an EB this week with 200m+ healing done, and then 2 chested the same key with 97m healing done. The gap in skill between good players and bad players is soo high it's unreal. If you want to practice a key do it at a lower level until you figure it out like all the rest of us did. Also tracking started keys will lead to a more insular pug culture where people will only do keys they are guaranteed to clear and only play with the best players which will exacerbate the problem even more.

This channel is the only reason I started put progress on mythic plus keys. Im up to +3 on resto shaman lol. It’s awful but it’s easier when I can actually watch myself getting better

hey there :) enjoying your content ! keep up the good work :) i play m+ since it released (with some breaks here and there..) and m+ is toxic, yes. BUT! most players dont give a dime to care about anything, interrupting, crowd controlling, or use a defensive cooldown or using a bufffood or using a healthpot, not mentioning dont knowing the route (as a tank for example). its all fine and good if u say u (cant) do a higher key, lets say a +10, but most people queuing up for some keys way above their skill. And most people (me included) always give some players the chance to prove themself when they sign up for some keys. tbh u should first learn to play your class and spec and then head over to mythic + (yes there are many other group or solo content to do to learn your class, esp with 10.2.5 the follower dungeons), get your keybindings sorted and at least watch some guide for some dungeons so u have a basic understand how the dungeon and some bosses/trash work. cheerz

The comparison to prog raiding in mythic is a really good one, keep it up!

Building off the whole social aspect that you discussed at the end, the leavers see the game as a single player experience which honestly is a big part of the problem. To them, everyone in the group might as well be NPCs that they won't see again so they don't see any problem with screwing them over. Also, like you've said in previous videos and on stream, the leader invited these players out of all the other applicants and to just leave for petty reasons, is simply disrespectful. If this problem can be solved, the quality of keys would increase in the long run in my opinion.

So what about the key I entered today (20 rise), where the leader invites me (a prot warrior), a resto druid, and 3 fury warriors. Its afflicted week. Resto druid didn't take the talent to be able to actually cleanse afflicted. I say "Hey, man, I'm going to go because I'm not going to get stuck with -200% haste for this entire dungeon." Leader says, "YOLO" and starts before I can leave the group. Should I have stuck it out?

The leavers end up robbing themselves out of learning from the mistakes in an untimed key, not only do they cheat their io page out of a failed key to show up they cheat themselves out of experience and bring over the same mistake to the next group potentially failing that key too at times cause they didnt learn.

I very much like how you just talk about problems a common WoW player can encounter during their M+ runs, in very down to earth way. Other M+ content creators are just about some crazy skip "tech", struggles of getting oneshot in +30 if you don't have god comp etc. As someone who is just interested in getting the KSH/portals every season on my main tank, and at least KSM on other tank classes via mostly pugging, I think it's very nice to listen about stuff I can actually relate to, not only some ephereal things I will probably never encounter in the game myself. --- On the topic of keeping the RIO table pure - this season I already ran 154 dungeons across my 6 tanks, and one actually ended because some random DH DPS decided to leave the key second after missing the timer because "if we finish it, it will show on his clean RIO page as fail", it was +15 Darkheart, and he left just before the Dragon boss.

Is slapping a timer on an event really the best way to go about it? The time pressure I think is one of the main aspects many dont even step in to M+. Then people break down a run and if they are not in 'x' place by 'y' time they feel its fine to bail. M+ is so counter to every other game mode in WoW with it being timed. As tech evolves I would love to see AI enemy mobs with higher key mobs having higher intelligence rather than the 'bullet sponge' increase damage/health slider which most gamers were tired with about 5+ years ago.

If someone has a couple of untimed keys it just means to me that they are willing to finish the key . That carries more weight than someone's success rate to me

I didn't time a 15 rise this morning honestly I feel like I can't afford to not finish a key like you said I'm playing arms warrior already not meta and hard enough to get invited as is lol even with my raider io connected to a 2.6k alt and 2other alts above 2.5.

As a counter argument; i don't take players without untimed keys. When someone has an untimed version of the key i want to run that is even a pro, because i know he has already experience on that level. We all know we get better by playing more and with every keylevel we learn more. It is very normal running a dungeon on a new level, untime it and on a 2nd run you are 5 minutes faster because that x wipe or something didn't happen.

I've been saying for years there should be a score penalty for leaving. Maybe relative to the time left in the key. For example if someone leaves near the start of the key gets a bigger penalty. And there is an option to disband with zero penalties. Half of the leavers , give up after 1-2 wipes or at the last 10 min of the key because they are sure it won't be timed. And I believe 10 min from one asshole's time is less important than the 40 min. that the other 4 spent coming to this point

Ive done keys up to 28 with pugs, and people never just randomly leave anymore without Any reason unless its clearly not timed and we mutually disband.

Blizzard understands the problem exists but they unfortunately just don't care

Blizz already has a tracker for how many dungeons you complete on time for 3 brackets (personally I think we need to expand it cause having the last bracket just be 20+ is such a wide bracket it's effectively useless) they should add a "keys entered" per bracket counter, that would show you (in game and not just on the io page) how many keys they're actually completing (timed or not) vs just flat out leaving. Obviously there are going to be factors like internet/power outages, emergencies or maybe the group decides mutually to not finish the key and to rather just try another or go separate ways and try again later with other people. But it is fairly reasonable to have say a 10-15% of non completes to keys entered ratio (maybe some fluctuation depending on key level and score) think that would be the simplest way for Blizz to implement something to address this even though technically this is an issue with the playerbase and not the system it is 100% one that the system can at least mitigate to some extent

I personally find it funny there's a punishment for leaving LFR and not a m+ key

I've been watching your vods as of right now and I thought some if not most of the toxicity has been in pvp. Now having my eyes more open, I can see when trying to complete a run in m+ there is some toxicity with different people. I myself am not a m+ player. I am a chill, casual player that has dabbled in both since my MOP, last main expansion returned and though not a veteran who grinded out every expansion, I've played a lot where I would really like to give it my first go into getting into m+. The problem(s) for me has been the following: 1. My gear score at the time and maybe now isn't as ideal as to when I want to join. Somehow I always get beat in almost any group through the premade tab for raids/dungeons and I never get accepted to progress through the content, to learn, to make mistakes and to better my gear progression. 2. I don't know the fights to most of these and so when you have someone with maybe less gear or same gear, 9/10 times, I'm skipped over esp if they have a m+ dungeon rating that is higher than mine. After the recent downfall in bgs, where to put in this point, I lose about 90% of them now since December because of all the premades/coordinated teams queuing that lets just say, 25 epic bgs, 2-3 wins, sorry that's not fun for me and it doesn't matter which side I join now, I always end up losing. Also getting denied entry into raids because my item level is lower then said other person is also demoralizing. My last effort to stay subbed or re-subbed is to try my hand at m+. I am a newish player with ilvl 465 who knows my class well and wants to participate it just sucks because it seems like people only invite those that have ran the dungeon multiple times instead of giving someone like me who doesn't care if we get in time or not. I'm willing to put forth the effort to due the best I can to do each run and I'm willing to listen to people who want to help make me better so I can in turn help the group out.

I haven't seen anyone ever doing this, but.... I got to work and checking some twitch streamers and boom first one is checking what key numbers they have timed in order to get into her group. I was like what? And some of her comments, man I was like wow no wonder people are paranoid.

I remember once we spent almost 2 hours in Kings rest with pugs it was a 21 , after that someone had a 20 and said ok now we can time it and we +2the key. I never leave keys , I had too many keys destroyed, but I don't really play my own keys anymore because of the fear of pugs

The term is “Deserter”. Coward also works XD

A few times i see people in que, exactly what we need and mention they are there and the group leader gives stats on the player as a result. Basically, they think they are a higher risk than someone else that doesn’t meet the criteria we need. Like. Not taking the dispels for the affix over fotm but lower ilvl. Edit: Oh and pug raids. They might not check io scores so much but the absolutely fall apart after 1-2 wipes. Its very rare that you dont have to reform to some degree after every wipe or kill for that matter. And sure, limited time can factor in, but i have had no real issues joining new groups after multiple disbands of pug raids. For pugging that seems common and no one expect you to have a perfect run score, if you could even track attempts made by applicants. Only thing that matters is dps and mechanics. Hps if a wipe is in a damage phase the group expected to survive.

It's funny but that last key I sent you, the everbloom, is a good example of the opposite of this. That key was so far out of time and yet everyone stuck around to finish it up. We even began brainstorming causes for wipes to Yalnu and set up rotations of externals for the one player in the key who was undergeared (in a 22) and still wearing a piece from s2. Because we cared about getting the completion more than how putting a run overtime on our record would effect us. I think if people are actually using this as an excuse for leaving keys it is just that, an excuse. It's about absolving themselves of responsibility instead of stepping up and making things better. One of those two is certainly easier than the other. Can you guess which one? It goes back to the whole gearing conversations we have had on the channel over the years, people want the maximum benefit for the least amount of work and right now it's less work to abandon a key at the first sign of a problem and get into a different key with no penalty, than it is to complete the key and make yourself and others better. Cannot wait to see the comment section on this one bud. Good video and as always on point. Cheers.

I think getting way fewer crests when you finish a dungeon after time is a huge part of this problem.

My dps group got called bad today, because we were doing idk, roughly 60-100k dps in a 14 Fall. Lost the timer at 5 sec over. Iim not a pro and dont care to be one. But if that healer and tank would have not typed, we would have timed it. Also, same group, has half the dungeons timed at 14. I hate the leet mentality. You dont need 150-200k dps to get KSM mount. We do good. close timers running 3-5 left. Fun asf.

Not only but also people might look at warcraftlogs and check your parses and key logs… it start feeling like a chore than a game tbh… sometimes I don’t even want to do M+ anymore…

Unless my group needs a lust or we want a specific buff its pretty much just take someone who probably knows how to press w. The only time i look up their rio is if they have a massive scored main just to see what class/spec their main is in case i want to ask relevant questions

Unrelated - what are your thoughts on incentivizing creating groups? IE if you make a group and use your keystone, you are guaranteed a piece of loot from that run. There are so many people that will complain about not getting invited to groups, but will never make their own group. The more active groups, the better, so incentivize starting groups sounds like it would fix a lot of m+ problems (obv not this problem discussed in the vid)

I totally I agree with you mate good point you’re raising, on my main I’m leaver since I can’t have too many untimed runs however I do mention that I need the run timed or I would be leaving before the run starts Although on my alts I couldn’t care less about untimed runs I just ran for the fun of it

For me the best option is to have the Rating still be the most important factor for personal growth but for forming groups there should be Keys Started and Keys Completed ( even untimed, to not harm people who just stick till the end and push themselves, ofc they should not get the rating but it should not have a negative impact ). This can be overall or just per key range 2-5, 6-10 etc..

I've left 3 groups this week before the key has even started because of dps refusing to spec into their dispel. But once a key starts it's on me to help finish it because I've checked people's io, talents and gear and agreed to do the key.

i never leaved one key in my life, its just irrespecful for the owner and for the 3 others players.

If WoW community wasn't so toxic, many people who leave keys, including me, wouldn't leave.

I know you've discussed adding a currency or something to attempt to convince leavers to stay, but I feel like that's opening a can of worms that may not be obvious. If there's a currency, not only does Blizz need to ensure that currency remains relevant throughout the entire rest of the game, they'll also have to tow a line not to make it TOO good that people will feel they need to farm this new currency (essentially "gamifying" what is supposed to be a punishment). My personal idea is to just simply at a Completion % to a players in-game IO. Someone with a 2400io at 90% complete is gonna look way more appealing to a group than someone with 2400io at 20% completion.

I just don't invite people with lots of overtime keys. Trying to "fix" this isn't helping. The key SHOULD be abandoned because it is *failed*. I want to know if the people i group with are capable of timing the keys before I invite them. Fixing any related loophole is just going to expose underpeforming players to a lot of toxicity that they are naturally being pre-selected to avoid in the way the system currently functions. Any fix to the loophole is just going to start prioritizing 3rd party log checking to verify the players' in-key performance.

This shows my ignorance in how the whole thing actually works. That's really odd. I'm always making analogies...but the first thing that comes to mind is seeing a happy, glamorous couple in the news/on TV where one, or both, of the partners has been married mutiple times and had horrible divorces. But, those past marriages were annuled, so they "apparently didn't exist" and everything now is hunky-dory and they are the perfect partner, living in Camelot and everything that may have happened in their previous marriages, including children, are all forgotten. Sorry, kinda personal experience there, but still somewhat of a reasonable analogy I believe heh.

I don't understand this leaver thing because of tarnished record. Keys above 20 don't give score if untimed by much(?) The bar on the side also shows recently TIMED keys... So you time a 22. deplete 4 23s. ppl would see on your page that the +22 is the highest scoring key, and your last 4 or 5 timed keys? Do they actually think people scroll down and start expanding the tabs to see the full list of keys they've done for each individual dungeon? For each of the 50 people that apply to keys?

Even on the aspect of not understanding mechanics and not helping those players get better. I generally only pug and when I try to help or explain mechanics I'm told to kill my self, don't tell them how to play, and many other insults for simply explaining a mechanic

just make it so after leaving x amount of keys within a certain amount of time you are not eligible for loot or a score increase for 2-5 dungeons. then if someone pulls it again and again eventually they just get banned for the season - not account banned just season banned.

I’ve been seeing dps leave keys if they “go too slow”. I’m just like wut when they do that. Lately I leave when people fail boss mechanics over and over. Nobody has time for that.

Every key you leave should remove credit for one completion toward your vault.

Being a healer, playing with trash is the BEST thing you can do to get better. You just can’t simulate bad choices, and if I can carry literal bots to the finish line, the sense of accomplishment is so much more.

So I am 3k score when I am in a discord and I join voice and people are doing a + 18 to fill my vault. I am not asking them to be the best teammates or to even have good score or have anything timed. I know the key will be timed just because I am in the key nuking all the mob for 300k average dps and the other players feel rewarded with timing a key that is hard for them and I feel humble for helping them. And I get to fill my great vault. But when I am doing pugs I am smart enough to problem solve and complete the key even if not timed. And because I am taking the initiative to coordinate these groups with only what I can type to them the group will have a better mental and when the key is over we just gg and go next. Like being upset that it was not timed is not preventing me from going and trying to time it again. When I am in voice chat I can tell everyone I am playing with how to do everything in the dungeon and when people here some with a plan making it happen just helps the people I am playing with get better and helps me time the key. And I do not think the average Joe is pulling up logs and checking raider io when pugging a 23 they are just hoping the people they invite are going to carry them

never had this problem in m+, but this is very much a thing in pvp, if you see someone having 1k+ games in the season and they never go over 1800 they probably have a problem improving and it's not the gear or not having put enough time into the season

Failure irl is where you learn as well.. not just games :)

I just left a guild with players who actually do look at IO and don't invite people with too many depletions.

Majority of these issues, that I can call problems at this stage of the online gaming, are coming from the wrong culture, misleading and self-claimed wrong facts by watching some steamers or elite jerks with wide platform and audience. next to these majorities that we can get into and explain them, there is some methods forced by game design (failure) and escapes to be able to stay unknown even if you leave 75% of the keys you join. • Wrong culture: in first step we should ask ourselves this question that why should this means bad to have out of time completed keys? in my opinion it is a proof that this player tried hard and learned and finally did some in time runs. other example about the wrong culture is investing the time in doing a key, at past we used to interview a little to get to know if this player next to his/her gear and achievements has a mentality about the content we try to do or clues that shows the person worth the chance to get invited. these also helped the social part of the game and not just invite- go in and in first minutes someone leaves or at best let’s say you time it but there was 0 conversation between players who participated. the wrong culture that tells to player to spend the time in just going in and starting and anything else is a waste of time (that is the main reason for some depletion? you could time it if you've spent a little time before you start the key). other wrong culture can be about the anger and toxicity that is accepted among gamers, it is losing a value and valuing a wrong aspect. • Misleading: Some newbie players try to just follow whatever the elites are doing, they just try to get to the final fact, build, method they do to save the time and make room for another try inside their group and not just in pug runs. That is the part I call wrong self-claimed facts. They look at X streamer and they love his score and progress and they want to just follow and they miss small important details to follow. The x has a team! Has a community and ended here after countless hours of effort and failure. Another important point here is that not all the elites are just good models to follow, some of them are toxic! Some are careless about the culture they are making. You my friend, you stand on opposite side of these x streamers and we need more people like you! Another big elephant in room is the game itself, it can lead the players into learning the very important basics such as leaving a group will end up in hurting the community and leaving bad influence to the game! Just one text on loading screen to say be polite in the daddy way is not enough! You should build the culture and not just any but the good one. By a lot of drama and many words already spoken by many people about blizzard I just end this part here. • Game design: You said a lot of true aspects of this topic and I agree on all of them, being able to build a correct ratio of start and finish and then building a success rate number can be the solution, on your previous videos you gave more ideas such as one in game currency etc., and many other good comments I saw on your RU-vid videos and I believe this game is feeding the pug-style and mercenary pirate way of gaming. This way of leaving with no real payoff and many other wrong design. • Business: I am not going to talk about the blizzard business here, I am talking about people who look at this game as their business and they are making money by playing it, or streaming it or authoring as bloggers social media content makers etc. for those who play the game as so called boosters, every minute in game means a chance to farm or to run another service or material, they do not have the time to wait for someone who fall back in a run or do a mistake that doesn’t really end the run. They are angry people who end up in this lifestyle to look at this as a job, and they are mostly toxic people who are yet good in game or have a lot of time anyway to become good or practice enough to do a service for someone ordinary who will to pay them to win it for them. Do you really think blizzard is not aware of all these RMT people and companies and they can’t trace and eliminate most of them? One thousand dollar and 1 month and I bet any of players who spend 4 years in game can investigate and put names of leaders and their accounts on blizzard desk. These people will help the ‘leavers’ to dodge the payoff. Pug is like that, go buy a boost, go pay people to do it, you cannot learn here we are out of time. The point is a good part of pugs are not even ordinary players who just pug and leave. They are products of RMT toxic let’s go fast always and kick whoever who fall back, look at wotlk classic, they vote kick you on start when you join cus you are not fully end raid geared to do a gamma run that meant to be a pre raid content to gear up, because they want their currency that lied in the end of dungeon and you are a weight you do not kill mobs at speed of light, it is a job bro we don’t care about the game to fall apart, we want our money! So a new player who join these, what he will learn? Is this the right way? Should I do same? Doesn’t it feed the anger? A big problem in this game is people who look at this game as a business, some streamers some big websites etc., they help this culture, they help this to develop in bigger issues. Nobody wants a guild, nobody likes to join a fresh guild, in their vision it is a waste of time. Get good gear and lie on resume join a good guild or just make a show off of your achievements and items you bought and who cares nobody care to investigate to know, nobody really read logs etc. and these are not meant to ask people to run in safe guilds or communities, my point is pug can be better! We do not need to have such anger, toxicity, leavers, insulters and people who make playing m+ an unpleasant experience for majority of players. I know it was a long text but these were my honest opinion about this and other problems that less or more affect this issue of leavers.

If i saw someone with 0 keys bricked that just tells me they are 100 percent ragequitting the key the first time they die

I had a retri paladin leave a 25 Waycrest Manor while we were fighting Lord and Lady Waycrest. His reasoning was that we couldnt take the last add pack with last boss because the boss would get bolstered. If he was there for the full duration of the fight we would have 4 minutes to do last boss with trash + BL. Really sad.

Failing isnt allowed in WOW. I cant beg my way into a Heroic Raid because I came back late and dont already have AOTC

Unfortunately i dont think this solves anything while adding a data bloat. There's many issues with the current keystone system and I personally dont think this is one of them. I've been playing this game since 8.3 and i have never met anybody who cared about untimed runs. This is either a non issue and compltely overblown out of proportion or something that isnt a problem on EU realms. Besides i think this issue stems from a bunch of other problems that m+ is currently (and has been) suffering from. The common consensus is that keys above 20 are ran for score, that's the "carrot on the stick" of pushing and it was even acknowledged by the wow's lead game designer."Knowledge" on its own has no qantifiable value while score is pretty much always considered the "experience" or "progress" of m+. The "leaving" culture is a byproduct of Blizzard nullifying score gains from untimed keys above 20 making any run that is untimed considered "worthless" since no score gained = no knowledge gained (even if you disagree with it since you personally learned stuff, in the grand scheme of things the community perception of you will stay the same because your score didn't change). Another issue is that time is extremely valuable, to everybody. People can pretend to disagree but truth is - it is. Some people don't want to bother staying in groups for indefinite amount of time just to finish the key because to them this isn't what they signed up for. This is entirely on blizzard - the "goal" option should be mandatory part of your group listing. We have Completion, Beat Timer and Standard. What does Standard even mean and why is it the default option? If its up to individual interpretation then you will run, quite consistently, into a conflict of interests. You can call it selfish, you can call it sabotaging the self/group's learning opportunity but at the end of the day everybody plays the game the way they want and the issue here is not people leaving or wanting to finish keys (some want it at any cost like that one asian group spending 20+ hours in a single key) but pairing these types of players together. Solution is simple - make goal option required and enforce it. If key was listed as: - Completion/Learning - Anybody who leaves before timer exceedes lets say 100% overtime (or let people manually set it up within reason, lets be real somebody signing up for completion key even while determined might not have 5 hours) is punished and get an account wide sign up penalty preventing them from signing up or listing keys for extended duration of time resetting with daily reset. - Beat Timer - for this one I dont have an elegant solution. Initially I wanted to say that "if a player leaves before timer expires apply the same penalty as above" but then you run into problems like somebody giving up halfway through and then staying AFK or simply everybody (unanimously agreeing to give up) being forced to waste 20m waiting for the time to run out. Voting can be also frustrating if visible to the player because people might spam it when unhappy with how the run went tilting the other party members. Maybe something like LFR "x more votes required to start a vote" but instead when you vote to disband its not shown to the rest of the party but the group disbands automatically if 4/5 members agree to disband. I dont think there's a solution that will make everybody happy so might as well pick one that is the least intrusive. - Hardcore (placeholder, i simply have no better word for that) - wild wide west, no rules, no punishment, group can disband at any point. Requires "master key" to be placed into the LFG window while creating a listing (more below). This way you will (almost never) end up with people with misaligned goals in the same group. Also while we're at it "pushing" needs a massive overhaul because current version is extremely punishing and too rng based. Premade teams that push (bleeding edge) keys together have to run MASSIVE amounts of "homework" keys to constantly reroll 4 keys to get keys they need/want to practice. My personal idea is that timing all 20s would award a "master key" that only has level and affixes (personally i'd remove all affixes entirely but blizzard shown no interest in doing that yet) meaning it would fit any dungeon. This "master key" wouldnt deplete upon "failing" the run (overtime/disband/reset). It would trigger 4h cooldown upon starting the run and reset when you finish m+ run of the same level or higher than your "master key" currently has. This prevents the groups from disbanding on the first pull of the dungeon over and over because it was 15s longer than it should, lets premade/hardcore groups run keys they want without having to always maximize their chance of timing the key (and never taking group assembly/routing risks, or in simpler words, straying away from meta) and also doesnt completely invalidate listing keys (since everybody with all 20s timed would have the "master key" without the cooldown there would be no incentive to join groups other than "not being in charge of forming a group" so you'd simply always list your key to be in charge leading to too many group listed and too little players to fill them). Sorry for the essay hope I didnt make you snooze.

I can proudly say, i play since shadowlands, have done maybe more than 500 mythic runs, and i have never left gtoup first, cuz i ddont like to waste ppls time ofc there was times i wished someone leaved so i can leave too bit otherwise i go from.bell to belli had a few runs where it was going bad and i proposed to call it cuz i lost enthusiasm or something after manymany wipes but then all team agreed to that

Imo, if you're the type to care about leavers and check the io page, a person with no out of time keys is a never invite, past say, 15-17.

My idea, would be if you would gain say 30 score for timing the key. You would need to stake that much from your Personal IO. you gain it all back if you finish. But you can gain more for timming. It would stop people for leaving and you could design a system to to lock into specific dungeons.

are leavers actually such a big problem? i feel like its doesnt really matter

just looked at Custom settings when forming group i see tab says goal > 3 options Standard, Completion, Best Timer. most people use standard. maybe blizzard needs add more options or person forming key needs give details what plan is.

Part of the issue, and the prevailing reason why people don't try to improve the players around them is that, essentially they believe those players won't be around them for long. When you improve and get higher RIO, you start to outpace other players, the season starts very close knit, and slowly stretches out like an accordian. Alot of people just don't bother to help those around them because in all honesty, they probably won't see them ever again. Does it hurt the mplus community as a whole? Sure, it does. But does it possibly hurt that person, who is crawling up the ladder? Probably not, humans are selfish.

Honestly, I'm very glad that I achieved my goals with M+ and raiding this season, I've been trying to do keys on my alts, and I feel like the leaving problem is getting worse and worse, just today I had a person leave due to him dying once. Had another guy leave because he didn't feel like playing. People that do this are actively ruining M+ as it is, and I've never been less motivated to play the game with random people that I don't know. It is getting real rough for people that don't have a group of friends to play with, and it's honestly very sad to see.

I think tracking started keys just for the sake of reducing leavers will have a very unhealthy impact on every other part of M+ pugging especially in the lower levels, like off meta specs never getting invites anymore and new players being pushed away and toxic chats during dungeons when people are displeased during bad runs etc. Im not saying its a bad idea and it will be helpful for high key pugging, just worried about how the playerbase would handle this as a whole

this is entirely anecdotal dude. i like your message (leavers in m+ are a problem) but you gotta show receipts rather than just latching onto some commenter's idea and rolling with it. i've never heard of anyone doing either of the things you've talked about (e.g. not inviting people due to % of untimed vs timed keys or leaving keys because they dont want to risk an untimed key on their record.) people leave keys because there is no reward for an untimed key, and time itself is valuable. if you logged keys started vs keys finished, by your own reasoning, you're now punishing the four other people in the group when someone leaves and the key disbands, because they now have an unfinished key on their record just like the leaver does, and again by your own reasoning, group leaders are going to see people that have a bunch of unfinished keys and not invite them for the same reasons they'd not invite people for untimed keys (which, again, I don't think is a significant factor.) side note, comparing guilds doing 500 pulls on mythic bosses to 20-25 m+ pugs is horribly inaccurate. raid pugs do disband after a couple pulls. that's why you don't see pugs clearing mythic raids. m+ pugs are in way better shape than mythic raid pugs.

How to fix key leaving: make finished keys not downgrade and make us able to choose if we want to change our key at the cost of 1 lvl if we finish

Success looks a lot like failing over and over again, getting back up and doing again until you get it right. It's not wrong to fail, wisdom comes from failure, improvement comes from failure. The only thing that comes from this form of play is degenerate self-aggrandized clowns who have no idea what the real world has to offer, this is the mentality of terminally online people who have nothing outside of this elitist behavior to look forward to in their lives. I have never seen this in reality, the only way you can see this is if someone actually states they do this. If that's the case, The only people they truly are harming are themselves in my eyes. Personally, I never look at Raider IO outside of the score they have. If I'm in the +20-22 range, I look for people of that range and run with it. If you've ran five 20s and no other alts, you're learning, it doesn't make you a bad player, if you've ran forty-five +20, you're pretty dang reasonably reliable IMO. If you've failed 100 keys, that also doesn't make you a bad player it just makes you a player like the rest of us. I feel like people actively look for reasons not to play the instance. It's weird to me, I personally play to overcome a challenge without cheating or "secret tech" I hate that term, but so many are hell bent on getting something for nothing and based on the history of wow and playing since patch 1.11 I have a hard time thinking it's going to change. If this is the gameplay people want, then why not make M+ a solo shuffle affair?

Pugging mythic plus since legion and this is the first season ive had a leaver that then said "you would rather have a deplete on your io?" mentality seems to be getting stronger, perhaps spurred by wows own use of score starting. Just to add to evidence, I also thought this was not really a thing to happen at all and a joke.

I started playing a month ago wow. I used to be in Dota 2 and Hots (semi-competitive) and Smite as Masters MMR. I grew up with Mobas. I can't really take as serious as anyone from wow is taking PVE. Me vs an NPC with a lot of health and damage? I mean it is not a real player- so I am always really concerned when people are REACTING the way they are about someone failing at something that they want to play into learning. Most tutorials in wow are boring, the players have no clue how to explain basic concepts and basic elementary rotation or core spell usage in a specialization. There is no broad view from most guides IMO which leads me to be bored with most of the community aside from some pro players. To me the issue is that people are too emotional about PVE... which is just hilarious to me. What does it even mean to have 3k MMR? Just a twitch channel and probably a youtube? Not everyone has played wow for 50 years. Not everyone is going to want to learn all the classes and specs. I easily progressed with frost to +13, but I find it boring that people are so emotional about a silly dungeon that all it takes is repetition to learn ... It's not like you have to learn to play vs others that may have gotten better and taking your money for a tournament.. no it's just points in a UI. And also don't get me started on when I understood about gold farming and people selling and all that stuff... It was just so funny. I appreciate your channel and your content and I do agree with what you are saying in this video. I think that most players are really silly. I do enjoy playing with non-quitters. I created an alt today and had people die 10 times in Tides on +2 and I don't even get mad or tilted, probably because I will never see it as competitive, even if it has score - I just think PVP is the only comp form. It's just the bias I opt into. Have a lovely day

omg.. I totally agree with this and I will say this is why i HATE pugs... I said last week there needs to be some sorta punishment system in place so people can see this.. you leave a key mid run and you have points deducted.. or you have a check mark against your IO.. or maybe a flag pops up on the screen that offers a remark... say like.. " this name left the key, do you want to react to it by adding a red flag or such.. something. it needs to happen.. PUG KEYS are toxic.. I had a key tonight.. a basic lvl5 EB.. I tried to explain to the DPS the concept of moving away when the boss begins his "jump" so as to not leave the green pool crap around the add.. but no.. all I got was push back as in what I was saying was crap... like.. OMG only to have the DPS say this was s***e and leave.. stupid stuff but still.. if people think this way and react this way in low keys what are they like in the higher keys???? what ever the reaction to the key leavers is it also needs be account bound... pls Blizz.. listen to what is been said.. try fix it... please....

As someone who pugs all the time i get it but tbh even if blizzard does something to leavers they are still going to leave is who they are. They can't add a loss of io because they are not going to put in the time to track that stuff. They could put a deserter on them for 30 min or longer but those people will just leave do something else and then go back to whatever they were doing. I enjoy the game as nuch as the next but after awhile it just getting boring being the sane thing

6:35 "Lmao these guys had 654 wipes and spent 19 days on Kiljaeden. Must be losers." It took Method 654 attempts on Mythic Kiljaeden alone. The very literal cutting edge of the playerbase. Top end messes up all the time. Even the current dungeons at the very highest end you have your normal deaths and then the "oops I stood in something" deaths. We know this because they show themselves doing it on video and upload their logs where you can see where and why the death happened. People who leave after 1 death, a few deaths, a wipe or a bursting or bolster on a giga pull [that usually the people experienced enough are aware is going to cause deaths] causes deaths are so full of themselves and pretend like they are some high end pusher. I think it'd be pretty funny if started keys were shown and am all for it. I'm sure that person had to leave to do something important 85 times out of their 100 dungeons. When you actually raid - you typically don't invite people who chronically don't show up after they have signed up for the raid over and over again. They are part of the team but they are more like on reserve because they aren't reliable. That person doesn't get to then complain about how they don't get invited. You signed up and chose not to participate over and over again. You get to see if it was worth it or not. I am fully OK with players ostracizing and making their own social consequences. Let people see started keys - then let them make the choice. There have to be consequences or else things just rot.

This is a symptom of a bigger issue: Are third party addons a problem?

Lmao who actually checks untimed keys, idk maybe some people do in low keys. I've never even heard it mentioned besides when it's brought up as an excuse to leave keys.

just saying I enjoy your content. I really would love to run a key with you. Maybe someday I'll match up with you in PUG-life. Keep it up.

100% agree with this one

It's a shame because I think some kind of "not complete key" stat would actually be pretty useful when trying to form a group.

Of course i look at people's untimed keys. If they've got lot 10-12 at the start timed in the 20-22 area and then 5-8 untimed 23+ one after another i know it's a boosted char probably clueless about what's what. I've had so many of those fakers in 23-24 keys the last couple of weeks it's soulcrushing...

leavers should been punished whit lowering theyr score each time they leave uncompleted dungion and it could stack up each time they leave so they end up whit -score and all can tell they dont want that person :3

Just say the 3 magic words "thanks for coming" . People typically stay for some reason.

I'm new to your videos. As a new player, I can say that doing end game content was at first intimidating, but honestly, as long as you get some runs in initially, it isn't too bad. I haven't had too many bad experiences pugging so far, even going as high as 20 on his week's affixes. But, it seems like there is still alot of toxicity in the community that hopefully goes down in the future. I've read around that it has gotten worse in WoW over the many years the game has been out due to the min-maxing mindset these days.

We have to ask if it's incentivized leaving, or players just don't have the patient to put up with bad players. No kicks, no dispels, no w/e, and they don't want to waste 30 minutes of time on something that is very clearly not going to happen.

Very good Video. I hate it really I play only my own keys and it happens when I get for example a 26 rise that this key goes down to 23 or 22 in pugs and I just want finish it to get rid of it but in the moment they see it’s not timend instant someone leave. And it’s really like this how I can get the experience at the last boss there when in 90 percent of all keys in rise I never reach him.

Talked to a friend who is a frequent pugger in the low +20 range. One thing that stood out after a lenghty convo about this topic and the game in general was this quote from him. "A real WoW player does not stay in a key that is not worth their time". Not sure how the community got to this point but it's pretty frustrating.

Had a tank leave first boss on fall because it was my first time and my friends first time in there on that high of a key and we didnt know about the soak things after the pools come out and then joined again on alt as soon as we started the key he left instantly bro. Never met such petty people before. Was a 14 first one in dragonflight now im over the game dont even play anymore

you arent overreacting. nobody on earth does that. nobody pulls up the website. the addon tells you SOMETIMES that their highest key timed for the dungeon is an untimed key. at least it used to, im not even completely sure it still does even that.

if im making a pug group and someone with half their keys out of time, in my mind that guy is a liability to my group and its not worth the risk inviting him over literally anyone else

I'm a tank and I never pug someone else's key. I pug my own key and put in the description that I'm still learning even when I'm running 19s or 20s. Get the bullshit out of the way to start.

I genuinly don't understand. It sounds to me like you are the problem. I have 2k on healer, 2,6k on tank and sometimes dps. All of that in span of 1,5-2 months after long break from WoW..Never cared about M+ until now. I had zero issue getting to that rating. Seriously. I'm pretty sure that I finished like 80% of keys. In like 10% keys leaving was reasonable. In other 10% people were leaving because they were bad/mad. I even finished whole Amidrassil on HC with pugs multiple times. I dunno maybe on keys after 20 its a bigger issue, but I think it makes sense since there are basically no rewards so the only thing people care is rating. So leaving just saves time. Also, when it comes to all the statistics sites - they are extremely harmful for the game and I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard would get rid of them in next expansion. It's like GearScore 2.0...

Low skilled/io people make up the weirdest things. Who actually checks peoples io page instead of just seeing their score in game?