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Industrial Electrical Installation - Board Upgrade & Electric Vehicle Chargers - Day 1 

Artisan Electrics
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Industrial Electrical Installation - Board Upgrade & Electric Vehicle Chargers - Board Upgrade & Electric Vehicle Chargers - Day 1.
Join us for Part 1 of this weekend job where we installed a replacement distribution board, two 22kW Zappi Electric Vehicle Charging Points, and some additional 13amp sockets.
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27 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 248   
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Watch Day 2 Here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OuGiiDTdA3Q.html Watch Day 3 Here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TSTTKPPTFhw.html
3 года назад
A suggestion of a thing to add to your kit in the van : a table :-) A folding table high enough to be used confortably while standing up. The thing you'll say "why didn't I use that before" and you'll even buy two more :-)
@tobykuhnert1
@tobykuhnert1 3 года назад
Yeah I second this. A folding table is one of the useful bits of kit in the van 👍
@effervescence5664
@effervescence5664 3 года назад
Literally what I learnt on and do on a regular basis, looking really neat and Cory is doing it exactly how I would on site for the exact same reasons. Must of had an old school teacher previously.
@terrystephens1102
@terrystephens1102 3 года назад
The main board looks so much neater, Cory 😃👌👏👏👏
@alunstone
@alunstone 3 года назад
Safe isolation at 2.12 is good to show,just in case someone complains,not that anyone would of course😀
@wizard3z868
@wizard3z868 3 года назад
lol chk out peterson electric??
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Haha how did you guess someone might complain?! 😂
@alunstone
@alunstone 3 года назад
@@artisanelectrics If I get a thumbs down,I'll know who did it😀
@mathman0101
@mathman0101 3 года назад
You did great on the ARC flash usage. In the USA we have to abide by a separate standard NFPA70E. Glasses, tested gloves, shoe covers, balaclavas, arc flash energy calculations and cal-rated suit to match, boundary evaluations and marking. Lockout and tagout as you did. Apple Watch nice addition to the PPE Cory....🤣 The three phase boards are much like our residential panels and I really like the use of cable markers from cable craft it reduces the needs for say a thermal printed markers providing an even cleaner looking install.
@phoenixdundee
@phoenixdundee 3 года назад
Definitely one thing worth noting is the multiple lockouts. Too many times I see someone check and there is already someone's lockout on the isolator so ... yeah that will be fine! Even if the other one has no idea you are there ... mental!
@edc1569
@edc1569 3 года назад
That's incredibly stupid.
@phoenixdundee
@phoenixdundee 3 года назад
@@edc1569 Some people are incredibly stupid.
@safepointsystems9041
@safepointsystems9041 3 года назад
Whoever installed that fire alarm system needs to go back to their main career in comedy. That is some rotten work there!
@janehoward509
@janehoward509 3 года назад
A pleasure to watch as always gentlemen.
@Richard_OKeeffe
@Richard_OKeeffe 3 года назад
I spend my entire working day on site in Arc Flash PPE, it is only effective when you are not wearing any man made fibre clothing, even under the Arc Flash coveralls. But its is great to see the wearing of face visor and Arc Flash rated gloves when Proving Dead as these are the area of the body most at risk from a flash over
@thlighting
@thlighting 3 года назад
Nice 👍🏼good to see you are still working during all this bad times
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thnks
@farmersteve129
@farmersteve129 3 года назад
Good call on the trunking - looks much better! Love the retracting face shield & good to see the chin strap in place - I've had to chastise DNO line monkeys in the past on that issue. Much as I like MEM boards, I'm getting quite fond of the Schneider Isobar boards, aside from the price! I was always taught that you keep the lid on the busbar chamber any time you aren't actively working in there - not essential with the multiple lockouts, but is just good practice. Also not a fan of leaving those tails dangling like that - the sooner that they are dressed, terminated & secured the less chance of getting damaged or rubbed - again just good practice in my opinion.
@goaway9487
@goaway9487 3 года назад
The stroboscopic effect causes running machinery to appear as if it is stationery, such as in a lathe. Very nice work.
@thesteelrodent1796
@thesteelrodent1796 Год назад
which is why many factories use 100-120 Hz lighting, so it's not on the same frequency as the machines
@amarcy5369
@amarcy5369 3 года назад
Hi Jordan and all the crew O how it takes me back , a lot of my time spent doing this sort of work. Happy days. Best wishes to you all. 😀👍
@philipsmith0752
@philipsmith0752 3 года назад
happy christmas Jordan and Corey , keep up your excellent work and videos in 2021 guys
@Bigbushape
@Bigbushape 3 года назад
three phase, would love some extra discussion about the board and so. The more you talk the more I learn
@skooliganwtf5592
@skooliganwtf5592 2 года назад
Music is fresh. Sounds like somebody got an MPC going on.
@aljroche
@aljroche 3 года назад
Seriously; I don’t even know what Corey says any more. As soon as he talks I instantly start having warm dreams.🤣😂
@allybaker712
@allybaker712 3 года назад
He certainly is happy with a tool in each or either hand.
@Lewdacris916
@Lewdacris916 3 года назад
Very homoerotic
@rubbersteve123
@rubbersteve123 3 года назад
Great and very safe work. Have great holidays and roll on 2021.
@paulinedaubney8052
@paulinedaubney8052 3 года назад
Merry Christmas guys love watching your vlogs x
@rexgold101
@rexgold101 3 года назад
Love the question to Corey.. so whats your plan.. I wish he said.. take all the cables out and then head home.. ;-) Great video...
@lucasuk86
@lucasuk86 3 года назад
I've personally had a flash over and the equipment your wore was not over the top. Safety first. Spot on. Forget what you look like. Too many people die skipping safety checks on high voltage testing. Keep up the good work guys
@colum9911
@colum9911 Год назад
And like a HV sparky would say if you have to wear arc flash gear you don't trust your isolation
@johnfenlon458
@johnfenlon458 3 года назад
OH my gosh! Wow Cory had worked hard working. The 4 black wires should be on the left corner bottom (dark gray main panel) instead of the left top corner the 4 black wires bend. Great job! Thumb up! Cheer!
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Yeah we changed it later you will see in part 2
@paulprescott7913
@paulprescott7913 3 года назад
Lovely to see that Mem Glasgow s/fuse and bbc. Was alao nice to see that you used an Eaton memshield board as a replacement with 250a incomer. Cory has nice attention to detail .
@TheSparkysdog
@TheSparkysdog 3 года назад
Great video, really enjoyed seeing some commercial work for a change, looking forward to part two 👍
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thanks!
@HBvD
@HBvD 3 года назад
Nice!!! Looking forward to day two 👍👍💪
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thanks!
@richardpowell181
@richardpowell181 3 года назад
Nice to see something industrial for a change 👍
@raychambers3646
@raychambers3646 3 года назад
Used to do this all the time build mains panels from the ground up,then they brought in ready made panels , different set of problems .
@tomorichard
@tomorichard 3 года назад
120mm tri rated!!! Jesus you thought the arc flash vest was over kill 👍
@raychambers3646
@raychambers3646 3 года назад
I used switch off and open switch and check its operated , saves all that dressing up, never had a problem .
@alecturner2008
@alecturner2008 3 года назад
Does seem a bit high, good for 374A?
@bencrew4376
@bencrew4376 3 года назад
@@alecturner2008 only if running at 90deg...in free air. once it’s de-rated for 70deg and a bit of grouping, will be about 250 A
@ChristmasCrustacean1
@ChristmasCrustacean1 2 года назад
"this is an electric..." *BUZZZZZZ* "crimper..." *raises eyebrow* heavy duty
@Cablesmith
@Cablesmith 3 года назад
Looking good lads 👊🏼
@marchofstede
@marchofstede 3 года назад
It really amazes me to see that you had to label the wires. In our factories every wire inside a cabinet is always coded and there are complete drawings of all the electrical wiring inside the cabinet. Also every multicore cable has its own unique number so you can identify each cable and easy identify where the other end is connected.
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Wow wish things were done like that here
@kaplan1406
@kaplan1406 3 года назад
That Arc Flash hard hat with the retractable face shield is pretty cool. Looks comfortable and probably isn't prone to fogging up. We're required to additionality wear a balaclava, safety glasses and ear protection, even with the 40 Cal suit.
@mathman0101
@mathman0101 3 года назад
I guess from the USA. The NFPA 7OE is pretty strict about this and I whole heartedly agree with you. Including electrically isolated shoe covers. Testing of the gloves before use and boundary marking arc flash calculations to determine energy and Type of PPE usage.
@theCybershot123
@theCybershot123 3 года назад
Nice to see full safety .
@imark7777777
@imark7777777 3 года назад
Cool, I would love to see the temporary power set up I hope it's shown. Along with what was considered necessary and that sort of thing. Yeah OK so you have a generator but a generator is gonna be way more efficient than a car. And the power has to come from somewhere anyway.
@tww5719
@tww5719 3 года назад
Like using mem especially with the extension box for the tails 👍
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Yeah they are nice
@Malandrin
@Malandrin 3 года назад
ah yes, the scooter warehouse, I had forgotten you were going back there, nice job as usual, those trays looks really neat, see you on the next one fellas
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thanks!
@RichardArblaster
@RichardArblaster 3 года назад
Awesome job 😎
@joshuabest100
@joshuabest100 3 года назад
Nice quality as always
@stikee2003
@stikee2003 3 года назад
We have to wear arc flash gear when inside EV batteries , along with the shoes etc , no off switch within a battery , and it’s that lovely DC stuff too , all good fun !!
@albanbirch
@albanbirch 3 года назад
Talking about the generator being non-green while Corey has a single use coffee cup in his hand, my kind of humour. Keep up the good work.
@linossinkala7840
@linossinkala7840 3 года назад
Super work
@supertechelectrical3452
@supertechelectrical3452 2 года назад
wowoow nice one
@paulzuna5046
@paulzuna5046 3 года назад
Love the Video, smooth how the mask came out when matey appeared 😂
@alunroberts1439
@alunroberts1439 3 года назад
Last time I was working on a system like that we had are own board on a platform with 16 amp sockets clamped to the bus bars. Was fun back in 1998 wish I had some phots of us all working only 2 of us alive and no not from being zapped old age.
@sukhi17
@sukhi17 3 года назад
Has anyone else watched this video wearing headphones? Lol.. Jordons voice in the left ear and Corys voice in the right ear!! 😂😂😂
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Wow that’s funny didn’t realize it would do that haha
@sharpy167
@sharpy167 3 года назад
Merry Christmas chaps 😘
@chrisday8072
@chrisday8072 3 года назад
i was skeptical about replacing the fusebard as opposed to just adding but when you see how much cleaner it all looks its a good option now in my mind
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thanks
@ukbullylife7968
@ukbullylife7968 3 года назад
Quality 👌🏽
@charlieparish8353
@charlieparish8353 3 года назад
Lovely neat job. Any reason why you didn’t use a larger width trunking as the right side will get stacked pretty quickly with the mains running through aswell.
@aminhama
@aminhama 3 года назад
You are an amazing cleaver person, if you could maybe make a video of how you mark the circuits before changing the consumer unit , thank you
@FarmerJacob837
@FarmerJacob837 3 года назад
Epic absolutely amazing 😉
@davebrown8544
@davebrown8544 3 года назад
Hey Corey, does it not do your head in to have someone sitting on your shoulder who’s at best as competent as you? Really annoying me now.
@richardpoulter2146
@richardpoulter2146 2 года назад
🤭🤫
@MRWonderingHaggis
@MRWonderingHaggis 3 года назад
Hi new family member here from Scotland
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Welcome!
@darrenknight8237
@darrenknight8237 3 года назад
Remember when I was an apprentice late 80s dropped a spanner in a bus bar chamber couldn't see or hear for 10 mins after
@peterpuchalski817
@peterpuchalski817 3 года назад
Gauntlets would be better. "Better to be over the top than dead" is never an understatement. My boss had an incident on a 3 phase and got blown half way across a room ... so it can be quite serious ... no, correction, very serious. Good to show safe work practice though. Nice install.
@stuartandrews4344
@stuartandrews4344 3 года назад
+1 for Gauntlets
@Adrianyoutubing
@Adrianyoutubing 3 года назад
Nip down to the welding fab area nick their head shield, shirt and gloves.
@YG-kn6uk
@YG-kn6uk 3 года назад
SWAs coming into trunking look horrendous
@RJSElectricalCheshire
@RJSElectricalCheshire 3 года назад
Looking forward to part 2. Do you have a link to that cable marker kit?
@rattlehead85
@rattlehead85 3 года назад
Great work guys. Looking very smart!! Where is the apprentice Jordan?. That would have been a nice job to introduce him to the commercial side of things.
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Thanks! Oscar is starting in January!
@rattlehead85
@rattlehead85 3 года назад
@@artisanelectrics Nice one Jordan. You’re building a nice team there by the looks of things. 👌🏻👌🏻
@sparkymalarky4322
@sparkymalarky4322 3 года назад
Here in Australia I work for a mining company. Because they generate their own power and are classed as the DNO we can switch HV in the plant. never think "its over the top " If anything people will like how you operate
@williamlowther7051
@williamlowther7051 2 года назад
should just added a new board next to the existing one thats why the bus bars are there, tight sets on the tray, on the whole nice work
@thomaskane8137
@thomaskane8137 3 года назад
You're using 120mm that's nice and flexible. Should try 120mm hard drawn double insulated😅😅
@funhaus_crew
@funhaus_crew 3 года назад
Nice work. Just wondering if you put anything above the holes in the busbar chamber which go into the main isolator you locked off. U dont want to go dropping anything in there lol. Best thing to do is cut a piece of cardboard to fit in the bottom
@gregorythomas333
@gregorythomas333 3 года назад
I don't know what it is about cable trays & conduit boxes but they give me the fizz!
@chrisday8072
@chrisday8072 3 года назад
120mm tri rated cabling is great future proofing as 120 TRI cable can hold 374a all day long per phase
@chrisday8072
@chrisday8072 3 года назад
i was skeptical about replacing the fusebard as opposed to just adding but when you see how much cleaner it all looks its a good option now in my mind
@PurityVendetta
@PurityVendetta 3 года назад
Coming from a background in a theatre technical capacity I love this sort of work. I have to admit the domestic side of things would bore me silly very quickly. As for EVs I can't wait for whichever gooberment to realise that they've been had by another dead end dirty technology. I'm guessing that a combination of hydrogen and renewables will be the real way forward but like the diesel debacle load of money will be spaffed on another dead end. Still good while all those ev charging points are being installed 😉
@ElectricianTV
@ElectricianTV 3 года назад
Another great video guys thanks a lot. This was always the job I was given during my commercial days.Always interesting to see how other people do it the way I normally do this job is before I disconnect any circuits I would fabricate all the new distribution board and trunking on the floor tying it all together .Before I dismantle the old one this will obviously reduce the time the power is de energise.Fairplay for use in the flash guard mask the only time I’ve ever used that is working on main switch hv / lv but fair play to you.But then to go and file the trunking with a grinder you’d be Thrown off site (Don’t get me wrong we all do it) And as somebody else has mentioned come on Jordan buy Corey a bench they’re only 45 quid It looks really uncomfortable working off that create. I’ve got to be honest I’ve never heard of tri rated cable being called bi rated is that a Dutch thing or is it a different type of cable. What’s the reason you decided to not fit it to uni struct is it because you had to tie in the trunking above but you could’ve use the shallows struct at 21mm.I also prefer to use the same method as using 2 inch bush and couplers even though I smoked for 15 years I hate cutting the paxolin The flumes seen as toxic as it gets.Always good to see also a big fan of eaton It’s a shame not everybody’s budget can allow us to use that. Anyway that was a great video and thank you and I hope you all have the most beautiful Christmas and please don’t take offence of any of my points they are only my own observations. Ps Can’t you pull armoured back to where the fire alarm junction boxes then they will be able to come down straight.
@ElectricianTV
@ElectricianTV 3 года назад
Also what you could’ve done is fitted some square plate washers behind the white plastic trunking to bring it off enough so you could use Unistruct
@mathman0101
@mathman0101 3 года назад
Mate killing it 🤣how are things with you Will Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and Ollie. We’re’nt happy when we lost to you mate...Oi, Oi...
@1990qais
@1990qais Год назад
can you explain a bit on the 120mm tails? So if your main switch is 250amp am I right to assume the cable calc is used from Table 4D1A? Can you tell me which column you used for reference method. It is very hard to find videos on Industrial units. thanks again for the brilliant video.
@andyhill242
@andyhill242 3 года назад
Oh and yes, Merry Christmas Guys.
@robertburrows6612
@robertburrows6612 3 года назад
Proper bus bars
@popsquashgaming9463
@popsquashgaming9463 3 года назад
No paxolin? 🙃🧐 Cory is the boss 🤘
@getduppiedrs9364
@getduppiedrs9364 3 года назад
What torque settings do you use on the crimps ? Why haven’t you painted them?
@WilliamDorrepaal
@WilliamDorrepaal 3 года назад
Arc flash gear….nice arc flash watch btw :) luckily he had a helmet, visor and gloves for protection ;)
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Yeah thanks
@JimWhitaker
@JimWhitaker 3 года назад
Generator sizing rule - Make careful assessment of maximum load. Add 10% tolerance. Now double it. Generator output specification appears to be like broadband speed guarantees. They lie! 😏
@Monkster009
@Monkster009 3 года назад
Was there paxolin put between the board and the trunking?
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
No we didn’t need any Paxolin on this job
@p01am3a
@p01am3a 3 года назад
Hi! What maker and model for the helmet you got for Cory?
@Mike_5
@Mike_5 3 года назад
Nice one but the Fire Door is propped open?
@Dlc18139
@Dlc18139 3 года назад
Looking good so far, was there any paxolin between the trunking and board? Eaton also do a ready made interface which can be used instead of paxolin.
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
No Paxolin needed on this job
@Adam-dn5um
@Adam-dn5um 3 года назад
Huge timesaver, use them nearly every time.
@Dlc18139
@Dlc18139 3 года назад
@@artisanelectrics nice, what did you use instead or was the way you installed it meant it was not needed?
@felixmoran1
@felixmoran1 3 года назад
He didn't test between L1 and L3... Surprised no one else picked that up, maybe its because we only do safe isolation for show 😅
@sparkymalarky4322
@sparkymalarky4322 3 года назад
9 point test is a thing right 😄
@onlyscienceandcommonsense4712
@onlyscienceandcommonsense4712 3 года назад
Nice tidy install however i would have liked to see some paxolin between the board and trunking......also i really am not a fan of the bushes in the sides the massive entry in the top of those boards will take all the cables going into that board.
@lhenn_
@lhenn_ 3 года назад
Only one recommendation: Never pan speaking voices, just don't! :) It's against all (natural) rules of hearing and video editing. Keeping all speaking voices center is way more comfortable for the audience than having them hard left and hard right while staring at a static camera angle. Appreciate your work and your videos! Greetings from Belgium!
@AGRElectrics
@AGRElectrics 3 года назад
OMFG i put on subtitles cause i just assumed he wasn't mic'd up and quiet... at least second half of this will be audible XD
@danielplusben
@danielplusben 3 года назад
I expect that what happened was the two microphones were plugged into channel 1 and channel 2 on the camera, and they weren't summed in editing.
@hbarnes2489
@hbarnes2489 3 года назад
Where did you get the cable flags from?
@tommymack3210
@tommymack3210 3 года назад
22:42 I hope those 120 wires are not resting on that sharp metal edge...
@Sparks0001
@Sparks0001 3 года назад
Nice! - Out of interest, why do you need a generator, could you not have just installed a small temporary CU hooked up to the switchfuse until you were ready to connect the new DB?
@Rory241995
@Rory241995 3 года назад
This is a warehouse full of ev and Scooter charging I think a small cu wouldn't have been suitable for there requirements
@charlotterobinson9452
@charlotterobinson9452 3 года назад
Agree, seems like a sensible thing to do! I have a temporary board with 6×13A, 2×16a & 1×32A that I use whenever I do board changes or rewires.
@SolisNotSolis
@SolisNotSolis 3 года назад
@@Rory241995 If the heat gun was causing "generator issues" as stated, I doubt it's (the gen) of any sizeable capacity.
@cjkokay
@cjkokay 3 года назад
May have had the flash bang helmet on but not wearing arc flash rated clothing
@samsawyer2145
@samsawyer2145 3 года назад
If you are going leave the busbar in then adding a new board and leaving the old board in place would of been a lot less disruption!
@andyhill242
@andyhill242 3 года назад
Do you have to have a different qualification for industrial as opposed to domestic installations? I noticed the mixture of old and new colours on the 3 phase which colours correspond to which in old/new?
@johnschroeder3072
@johnschroeder3072 3 года назад
Red Yellow Blue is officially old. The "new" is brown, black, grey. I've never quite understood why Europe uses such similar colours where as the British had quite clearly different colours for each phase then changed to align with Europe. In Australia we just change the yellow to white as to not have it mixed up with earth, so we use Red, White, Blue with a black neutral.
@Aidan-zw7gi
@Aidan-zw7gi 3 года назад
While you were there did you check emergency lighting and fire alarm system to make sure it all worked with no power?
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Yeah all worked well
@Georgeagdugeungo
@Georgeagdugeungo 3 года назад
Why wouldn't you put in a new board fed off the bus bar? Those Glasgow iso's are ridiculously well made and probably would have been safer to test dead at that point.
@shanginadildo
@shanginadildo 3 года назад
Less work
@jasonhowe1697
@jasonhowe1697 3 года назад
14 bikes at amps at 4 rows 448 amps at single phase 220/240 vac so at a guess including the scooter base as the same level 896 amps based on a 8 amp charger at bare min of 2,000 amps just on chargers alone.. I would ask what the service is to the premises because from what i'm seeing you might be looking at north of 1500 VAC service..
@Adrianyoutubing
@Adrianyoutubing 3 года назад
Should probably put the phases back were they came from so loads of drills or other machines don't spin backwards...
@Chris-hy6jy
@Chris-hy6jy 3 года назад
Is that arc flash shield COVID secure? 😂😂
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
Haha I doubt it
@i-can.t
@i-can.t 3 года назад
Watch out for the vents...
@onewheelnut
@onewheelnut 3 года назад
What size tails ?120mm !
@andyhill242
@andyhill242 3 года назад
When do we get Part 2? :-)
@supertechelectrical3452
@supertechelectrical3452 2 года назад
please I want to learn more
@alexarcher7364
@alexarcher7364 3 года назад
Good old £10 screwfix heatgun
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
😂👍
@description662
@description662 2 года назад
Rather than music, you could have given a commentary on what you guys are doing.
@sylvianorah1367
@sylvianorah1367 Год назад
What is the size of the earth cable?
@shaynemacdonald3051
@shaynemacdonald3051 3 года назад
Paxolin used? When I am doing TP boards I also frame the board with Galv trunking about take slots out at the sides and bottom. Then paxolin in between board and trunking. You need to ask for flat 90 bends squared no tapered so you can keep the trunking tight to board.
@artisanelectrics
@artisanelectrics 3 года назад
We didn’t use paxolin it wasn’t needed
@m101ist
@m101ist 3 года назад
@@artisanelectrics what is paxolin ? 🙄
@edgein3623
@edgein3623 3 года назад
Isn’t stroboscopic effect makes it looks like the motor is not moving or looks like it’s slower than it is..... not lights flickering & isn’t it only for fluorescent lights not led?
@tomorichard
@tomorichard 3 года назад
Yep 100% the led power supplies will have filtering and will be rectified to dc anyway 👍
@StephenLyons1984
@StephenLyons1984 3 года назад
Could we get a time lapse stamp or something saying when a time lapse is ending. seems like there is loads of them now.
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