Investigation: The Toyzzo game table: Too cheap to be true? 

I've manufactured furniture in China for 5 years and it is physically impossible to produce this table at this price and make a profit. They said there's walnut veneer - they have massive metal legs inside (those would be $30-40 alone to produce), all the electronics inside this table, PLUS probably $30 per table in freight, PLUS 25% US import tariff, would plant the landed cost very close to $200. That's before Kickstarter's 10% fee, and the probably 20% of the funded amount they've spent on ads. Then, shipping costs - the table is over 60lbs without topper, which means it would need to be broken into 2 boxes, plus another for the topper, resulting in over $150 in shipping costs easily (yet they're charging $70). It's so obviously a scam to vacuum up KS money after seeing so many successful table campaigns.

There is really no reason for gaming tables to cost as much as they do. I know you gave some reasons at the beginning, but really it is just greed. Companies know that there is a market for this and they know that some people will pay those prices. That is the only reason they cost that much. Having worked in the furniture industry for years, tables in general are one of the cheapest types of furniture to produce. It means massive profits for companies that make the tables. If anything, a gaming table should cost a hundred or so more than a normal table. Anything more than that and they are just lining their pockets. For these tables, it would be simple enough to remove the legs from the topper and then you could store games in the well of the table. Again, having worked with furniture for years, the engineered wood is way more durable than most real hardwoods. The amount of broken hardwood furniture we used to have to replace vs the number of mdf types that needed replacement was astounding. I actually prefer composite materials for most furniture over hardwood. There are a lot of things about this campaign that are kind of shady though. That vague shipping thing is a definite red flag. In this day and age, quoting shipping before the end of the campaign is already a bad idea. $75 for a table seems to be reasonable at the moment for a large heavy item like a table, but who knows what it will be like in a year or two when these are ready to ship. Asking people to back and hope that there is a pickup site nearby is another questionable thing. Definitely a campaign that could have used some more time to cook and iron out things. Not an entirely unreasonable cost for what it is though. Honestly, this is the first gaming table that looks to be reasonably priced for the costs of what it actually takes to make something like this.

Thanks for posting this. I am currently a backer of the kickstarter through naive positivity of wanting my first gaming table and it being within the budget. You're thorough look at the project has helped me see the red flags I was ignoring.

Thanks for doing all the legwork to put this together.

As a woodworker, I can tell you that I would struggle to build this table out of pine (about as cheap as it gets) and plywood for $300 right now...without any of the accessories, lighting, or veneer. I, like many of you, _want_ this to be true, but if your warning radar is going off, it's probably for a reason.

Got to say I LOVE your due diligence.😍 I'd say - If it sounds too good to be true, that's because it probably is. I have lived and worked in China and I completely agree with your point that they often tend to say and agree to almost anything just to close a deal so that their sales numbers will look good when they present it to their boss. If their customer backs out later is a problem for tomorrow. It's almost as if companies over there tend to just focus on gross sales and not care about retention at all.

As someone fairly new to board gaming, I initially thought this looked great and backed it. Then I shared it to some of my more experienced gaming friends who were far more cynical! Either I wasn't going to get it, or I would get it a year late, or it would be crap quality for that price. Watching your video just sealed it for me, pledge cancelled. Thanks for the excellent work.

I was with him until 44:10. That jumpcut is just so suspicious, who knows what he cut out there?? I'd say this definetly invalidates what he said before

Their timeline on the bottom of the page shows that they are past their second trial production but every photo and video shows the exact same table. You can tell by the discoloration and grain pattern on the side rails. If they are somehow going to pump out 3000 tables, shouldn't they have more than one by now? Not to mention how shady their team break down is. Co-founder but only shows one person, then only lists the marketing director as the rest of their team? I can't wait to hear about the unforeseen supply chain issues or unheard of logistics costs or unplanned manufacturing holiday schedule then the inevitable update where they change the plan or sacrifice the quality of something last minute.

Thank you for your effort making this video. I'm KC that u mentioned in the review. I backed now and will keep on eyes till they figure out the local pick up location things. For the cost, I do believe they could make this with the selling price, the only issue is still the shipping part.

As is usual on KS, Caveat Emptor. I think the comparison to AliBaba is a good one. This is clearly a knock-off of Wyrmwood, Rathskeller, GeeknSon etc. They looked at what good tables have, and figured out how to make something that looks vaguely similar for the least amount possible. Good investigation.

Thanks for your work!

When I saw an add on FB, it looked too good to be true, so my default position is to wait and see; either it'll crash and burn, or the brave few that jumped on this grenade actually get something, and I'll maybe consider their reprint KS.

I had pledged within the 1st hr of the campaign launch. But I canceled the next day after I slept on it. There are too many red flags. I hope it turns out to be legit and the backers get the product, but I'm unwilling to gamble on a 1st time creator with a product that seems too good to be true at such a low price.

Love these kind of videos. Cheers!

This is much appreciated.

I mean it can be both. They can have a normal sort of amount or genre of board game but they aren’t thinking of niche style board games like most of us hobby gamers have. I backed the project but I’ll be changing my pledge to $1 bc it just feels like too much has changed over the last few days for me to have confidence in the product.

Just buy an IKEA table and glue some 2x4s around the edges. Same result.

As someone with a background in law, I appreciate you being more cautious with the word scam. We actually had a short discussion about this about like a year ago when you were more loosy-goosy with calling something a scam in the video or thumbnail at least because I thought it could also be incompetence. Your efforts in growing as a channel are seen, I really like it!

Seems legit. I'm buying three!!! :P

Hey, firstly to say a big big thank you for your investigation and thoughts and making this video. I'm dubious and imagine many backers who long to have a small gaming table but struggle to muster (or justify the allocation of) hundreds/thousands of pounds are Def. the target here, and, as you rightfully point out, a potentially easy one at that. Agree, whilst some effort has clearly been put into creating this project (and associated materials) there's clearly a significant gap... Who are these people, where are they based, what is the shipping on this project, etc, etc.

What? Even with particle board and the cheapest stuff ever, being able to ship that mess of a table for $200 sounds dubious. I do think that the intent is legitimate, but with a high likelihood of failure. There is no obvious way to disassemble the large table board for shipping, so it would need to be shipping as one unit, which does bad things to pricing. There are some ideas I like, and the design is clever enough that I would love to see a breakdown. It looks almost simple enough as a DIY project.

Thanks

i agree it looks so wyrmwood modular table

Thanks!

Amusingly, got their facebook ad right as the video was playing. Kickstarter has restrictions for foreign companies, but kickstarter will also provide foreign companies instructions on how to open a US "subsidiary" paper company to avoid their own restrictions. Much more common with Ukraine/Russia companies of course.

In short, it's a scam without saying it's a scam, even if it's just in intentions than just fully reaping off people (meaning you'll get something but it'll be a cheap piece of [insert your favorite Scifi argo word]).

It would probably cost the same to ship to a Walmart or similar warehouse/retailer as it would to ship to your home if both were in the US. So that’s what really stood out to me.

At around the 15:30 mark you introduce the "going through the comments" segment 3 times.

I see another folding game table on kickstarter called GameFold by Tabletop Games / Tanner Yarro for $250. This one seems more believable - I'm wondering if you had thoughts on it to compare with the Toyzzo table. ??

ive been expecting a board game table of this quality and price for a while. personally i dont need 400lbs of oak or walnut to play games on. Kallax is a perfect example of what ive expected for some time, just in a game table format. we in the western world are so accustomed to overpaying for everything that we immediately suspect bad things when something like this comes along. i doubt this campaign will finish. i think it will be canceled, reworked, and then redone. if nothing else it will show there is a market for this kind of table for other manufacturers to jump on and make a table people want.

February 2024, shipping time! Wait... no update since last November and "Brian" seems to have disapeared... With almost a half million $ more in his pockets.

Any update for this?

SO weird. While I understand the how's and why's of economic dumping in relation to high volume products like quartz countertops. (I use that reference because it is well documented, see the Cambria lawsuit) ... But the market for gaming tables is far too small for it to be of use. Like TikTok and Temu, I'd be very very wary of entering ANY of my information... 🤷‍♂

I feel having the legs for the second table totally defeat the main purpose of a gaming table for me: leaving your set up for the next game night and still having a table. Putting a cloth on a table is not that hard.

Fairly quick….45 min later

🚨 WEEWA WEEWAA 🚨 ⏰ DING DING DING ⏰ ALARMS ARE SOUNDING!! AVOID AVOID AVOID!!!

Thanks! I'm keeping my pledge for now and will reevaluate before the campaign closes and see what concerns they've addressed.

Wow you have only had the black tables for months and you have already worn off some edges. Have you taken a look at Game Toppers? They are going to have a new KS at the end of Sept or beginning of Oct.

I see the person who thinks board game tables are a scam has deleted their comment. Perhaps they did some actual research?

I completely understand from a market standpoint, having a low-cost alternative for a gaming table is not a bad idea but as you said before it's a hyper niche market. People in this circle want high quality and will pay thousands of dollars. so the KS now makes even less sense because it's not hitting with the right audience who sees this as a cheap cash grab and again everyday people will want a regular table not a gaming focused table. Its a deeply confusing KS that could be coming from a good idea on paper but in practice its not viable. ITs also not exactly ideal when there is a lot of things they are not saying when they should, especially on shipping as that is a HUGE expense for these tables.

The fact you can´t store the game inside the table is just bad design.

That table even at the supposed MSRP is REALLY cheap for what is says it does....

Didn't build the gambler yet i see ;p !

We shouldn't discredit them just because they are Chinese and don't know anything about board games. We shouldn't scare away companies like this IF they can deliver quality goods for such a low cost. They were honest and upfront about the materials. Even an MDF table with a decent veneer could be a very good, affordable alterative these boutique pieces we see selling for the cost of a small car. Ask about the factory these are manufactured at and do research on them. Chances are they make millions of pieces a year and this is a simple project that could be delivered quickly. Looks completely legitimate so far to me.

No, increasing the super early bird amount is a sleazy marketing trick, nothing more.

Too many red flags on this for me. I still plan on just building one myself or finding some beast of table someone does not want.

Is it just me or the "second table" with the MANY legs is really not something that will be stable (legs really too near of each other to be stable).

the legs appear about 1" thick, the 5cm gap is 2" you could have meeples or mini's that were an inch or less tall or even taller if they aren;t where the legs are but this is almost surely a scam. it can't be built with real wood and good hardware for this price. they are showing 16 folding legs just for the top... try to price these from anywhere. they supposedly telescope to 2 different heights. even if you bought 1000 at a time from china I doubt you could get the price down to under $5 a leg and that's $80. on amazon a tet of folding legs that don't telescope and are relatively short costs 20-40 at least. just steel tubing with no hinges or labor or assembly would cost a significant number.

Any table can play Zombicide

All of the updates have been removed

I have a different point of view with gaming tables, they are way too expensive, way too much so I have never backed one, they’re not a scam but no way in hell a table should be that expensive, more when they’re mass producing, materials will be cheaper. Here in Costa Rica, wood is expensive but no way in hell a table would cost so much money as the ones they sell in KS, if you pay someone here for a table like that, cost would be around $600/700/800, maybe less, a friend paid $500 for one he had someone built specifically for him. So I find prices from them more accurate. Don’t know if that’s a scam but prices seem right.

Why was my comment deleted?

I think nobody should call out others as long as he is spending fortunes for pushing around overprized plastic. A custom gaming table for that cheap is ok.

I bought a kitchen table, 4 chairs, and a bench on Amazon for like $400. I think manufacturing costs could probably be cheap enough for this.

It seems what could have been a great idea shot down by the company not understanding western expectations...

Hey man, I really appreciate the information you’ve been providing lately, but this video was far too long. You could have done this in twenty minutes. Please try to cut back on the exposition or release shorter summary videos when you have a review that takes longer than 15 minutes.

Please stop using dark mode in your presentations.

Started watching...heard the comments about it being fairly exhaustive and I started to prepare myself...then you said fairly quick and I looked at the total playtime of 45 minutes...yeah our idea of fairly quick is off by about a half hour. Fairly quick for an exhaustive review should not be more than 15 minutes, otherwise you will have lost your audience with all the extraneous detail that just isn't needed.

In a world where Biden is president of the US, this is the best idea. More people than ever need the "lowest cost possible while getting the job done" dollar stores and five and belows as well as DIs and other donation stores are more packed these days. Who has the money for "quality oak" or "Sterling silver legs".

They just recently listed the shipping locations of the warehouses....... Here is some warehouse locations that provided by our shipping partner, and we will update more soon: 1）Vancouver, Canada 6751 Elmbridge Way, Richmond, BC V7C 4N1, Canada 2）Commerce, CA, USA 2340 S Eastern Ave, Commerce, CA 90040, United States 3）Florence, NJ, USA 1401 W Front St, Florence, NJ 08518, USA 4Leicester, UK Leicester Commercial Park Unit 1, Dorsey Way Grolsheim, Germany Albert-Schweitzer-Straße 1, 55459 Grolsheim, Germany

Canceled my pledge