Is CS2's Inferno Too Detailed? 

I love the details they added when making the changes, instead of just removing parts they gave it a story and a reason to be different

I feel tired of all the maps being designed for pros only. As a more casual player I find quirky maps fun.

Changing water pump into a single small pot is like the only change that really feels odd and disappointing, it makes very little sense now, everything else got some environmental storytelling to it or is pretty subtle and subdued without ruining what was there originally.

The change at 3:25 is one I'm a little bitter about. It was a really nice fountain before

Glad you covered this topic , ever since cs2 came out i feel like the player models blend too much with the overall environment no matter the map . Honestly I think they need to work on player models rather than maps for better visibility.

I feel like most of the changes are rather minuscule and don't harm the visuals. In fact for most of these I highly doubt that if you never showed me the before and after I would even notice the changes aside from "library". As for the windows removal I don't think the window even looked good anyways but it is an odd removal since it's really not even part of the problem presented.

Please make longer videos, doesnt matter cs2 or tf2, we like both

I hope they wont remove more and more details, it really kills the looks of the map, especially if youre a mapper yourself

As someone who has been playing a lot of the new CS2 inferno maps I honestly couldn't tell a difference between the the visibility on the older and new version, I play on 1080p and I still had no trouble discerning enemies from backgrounds, these changes don't alter much in my opinion and just seems like busy work for Valve when they have other things to worry about then if a milk crate needs to be removed.

I think can find a balance between gameplay and visual details. For everything that was removed from De_inferno, the map still looks really good.

Appreciate you covering the topic! was a good watch. and yeah, reading all the backlash to the post was very interesting 😅main motive is that CS maintains that balance between map design and competitive gameplay

My old mapping community i just rekindled with, this was one of the heaviest thing we mostly agreed on. It becomes so easy to become distracted in something thats meant to be competitive in reflex and skill. If this game was some longer drawn out conflict in rounds, as the round time is reduced so much from older versions of the game it really matters. As a mapper id say make contentious decisions when designing. Its too easy to be swept into the camp of more details these days but keep your maps use case, ie deathmatch maps could have more detail but timer constraint on maps like de_ should be simpler in design practices.

Valve: declutters inferno for gameplay Player model skins: 👁️👄👁️

I think all the maps that is in the competitive pool needs to be kept simple and competitive. They are definitely going in the right direction with all these changes. For more visually appealing maps I think we need to wait until they release a new operation. That’s usually when those types of maps gets their time in the spotlight, and since they are made to play casually most people don’t care about stuff like player visibility or weird clipping

great video! nice work, i love the topics you choose

4:46 captions say “Valve was able to PERVERSE” when @LED said “Valve was able to PRESERVE”

One big point to make. Over-detailing in games is becoming an accessibility issue. I'm visually impaired, and in newer games I often have issues where I can't see what's going on amid all the details. It's much harder for me to play something like Halo MMC's new graphics vs the original graphics option for this reason. It's also difficult because any accessibility feature you add in options to increase readability will be an advantage for people who don't necessarily need it, which will lead to community backlash over it becoming optimal play to have it enabled.

Maybe a hot take but here we go: For official tournaments and in premier mode, each map should have a set of default agents with good visibility for that specific map theme to avoid these issues popping up as much in general. No green agents hiding in a bush in a random corner. Then for the more casual modes let people use whatever agents they want. Hopefully this would mean less changes needed to the map details themselves for visibility in competitive scenarios, though I think realistically whatever the art style there will always be case where changes might have to be made for visibility.

I'm on the side of gameplay over graphics. As long as I can see important details (i.e. enemies) clearly, it's good.

I think that the game needs to balance the player visibility more but keep the style of the maps intact. some clutter can be seen as bad but I think as long as important sightlines have decently flat walls and a contrasting colour on them you can keep geometry detail.

I love how versatile source is

I love the way you get in depth into mechanics while keeping up a fast paced fun energy in your videos. Huge fan of your work man, keep it up!

5:18 "A crouching terrorist is pretty difficult to see"

whats the difference on the fountain at 3:44?

Pretty sure the bullet holes aren't 3d. They use parallax occlusion

I like how the map changes actually have an environmental reason to them, not just directly removed

You tell me man...

There's still a ton of details, I don't see any problem with these changes.

I think the complaints about detail being removed are absurd. I doubt they'd be thinking about those spots or details if it was like that from the start. All that's taking people out of the game, are themselves. To complain on Twitter. There's nothing "unimmersive" about a single wall out of many not being packed with distracting objects. Kudos to Valve for all these changes! Even ones like windows being removed. It's not just about players not being directly obscured- it's about being able to quickly parse everything that's onscreen. Surrounding clutter adds just that teeny bit of extra time for your brain to interpret things. Even more-so for some autistic people (*like me*) who can struggle deciphering and navigating cluttered, visually-noisy environments. I consider this an accessibility win with zero downside to anyone. I personally struggle with most modern games due to this and wish more games gave the slightest of a damn.

nice

I like more minimalistic designs. I think it does have too much details. It feels more like Source 2 grapchics showcase then actual Counter-Strike. Back then Valve did the same thing on Ancient becouse there was too many rock models that was on the floor. Then got update, removed a lot (sure it looked worse) but you got a lot more fps.

No. No it is not. It's beautiful

The maps should have the original vision and a separate version for pro play plus edits/changes.

I think those final parts you talk about around 5:12 were more to guide players in the right direction, instead of with regards to visibility. For example, the cubby outside of boiler appeared just large enough to crouch in, when in reality was completely clipped off. It seems that by making the cubby shorter, this eliminates any confusion for newer players who think they can crouch underneath it.

if they want to see players let them just install config that makes whole map white and players pink

Hot take: comp games should let you use your surroundings like shadows or props as covers

Some of these changes are good but others just remove the little details i like about CS maps. Especially now that we have Source 2, the goal is to make the maps look really good and not outdated like Source 1 CS. I like the celler room and balcony change though.

there was no issue with inferno

I think these nerd games aka supercompetitives should just have maps consisting of white textures for the walls, grey for the floor, color for team games, and have players be colored hitboxes holding hypredetailed Strange Unusual cherry blossom AWP with gigascope customs. That way no one can complain about visibility and so they can leave the detailing of maps to games that actually need it because they’re not so focused about the competitive aspect and would just put some damn rim lighting on their characters…ahem…

I don't play CS, and I don't really see a reason to while it's so focused on comp.

CS fans: NOO! This three pixel gap in the wall is too dark! Enemies are too hard to see! Valve MUST fix this immediately! TF2 fans: ah yes, the enemy can shoot through my spawn in this 17 year old map, splendid, I shall wait patiently for 7 eons for a patch, I love this game

On one end I'm not fan of mp maps being sterelized in videogames, on the other hand CS has been doing this for years already. A good example is the classic traffic cone kill in Halo 3, whereas recently in Infinite most props have been removed from maps. Interactive detail can help to mix up gameplay. For CS it allows for players to use the environment in more creative ways, standing on crates, crouching on backgrounds etc. It may feel unfair and it might be, but maybe it's just part of the game to also be aware of your environments too. Pretty sure similar cases have happened irl. Of course, then there are things like hiding in a dark corner never to be seen, which is rather overpowered. I guess for CS it's a bit hard to say, while competitive is a core gameplay of CS, and comp match making was officially added on GO, I think CS wasn't meant to be such originally. But what do I know.

I think the problem with CSGO 2 is part of why tf2 works well. The CSGO character are using much monotone shades of color, which blends in extremely easily with background that has much more shade in the area, its similar to a camoflage effectiveness in a deeply vegetated area. The right balance to make someone stand out yet not make it feel empty is crucial. So to make sure that it feels like you're in a forest but yet making you spottable is the main goal. Translating that to the map, i think the detail isnt the problem but rather how well the detail hides the player. Since some detail can still let player be easy to spot nonetheless

A chess board is only 8x8 but it provides nearly unlimited possibilities.

Changes looks fine to me

isn’t it kind of a feature if you can “hide” in certain spots? Seems like it could just be reducing competitive strategies instead of improving them?

It's not just a competitive, but a spectator sport also

They need to remove the birds and particles

Good video, but the reason for switching to source 2 was more that source 1 was older than a sizeable chunk of the player base. The engine was a mess and horrible to work with, and would break frequently. The bonus is allowing for more detail 😁

I hate when crybabies on Reddit takeover and force valve to change unnecessary stuff to only have them say it was better before and valve is left scratching their head. As a map maker myself, while feedback is appreciated and I am always open to them, I’ve come to realize that most people that provide feedback don’t know anything about maps and I rarely do make changes on feedback.

2:40 ?????

no, no its not

cmon people will find anything to blame to not blame their own skill

All this time I thought that Inferno was Spanish... 😱

I’m late to the discussion here but if competitive players solely cared for how a map plays and how well it runs then they’d be playing on untextured maps with bare bones lighting. But that makes for a dreadful experience when viewing tournaments and for casual players where visuals do matter more. The reason why details exist above and out of the level where they don’t affect gameplay is to make the viewing experience better

Tf? Detailed? Most of them damn window r disaligned from both sides, i mean like the outdoor side of a window is small and upper and the inner one is large and lower, same for balconies and lots other stuff that could be fckd up. I mean like did u even notice that there is no gahdamn door leading to those?? Is it some kinda non Euclidian spaces or what?! And same for nuke like there a lot of pipes r disaligned asf i mean once with an yellow valve in the middle and other loads of those "give no shit" from developers all around the game

When will Counter-strike have more than 10 devs working on this series since cs 1.0 beta Is everyone concern

I think way Valve's handling changes so far is completely fine. All the changes still make sense in the context of the world and there's no part of the map's design that is only justifiable in a competitive context. If it doesn't undermine the art direction and doesn't look out of place I see no reason to complain about anything that provides a better gameplay experience. Detail for detail's sake doesn't make a game better, but being able to see the guy who's capable of one-shoting you certainly does.

i feel removing these details harm the maps feel. if you remove all of the small details the maps lose the lived in feel that some of them have.

answer: it's not

In my opinion the detail shouldn't have been removed. I am not 100% on that, for example the wooden panel in Library is fine, but casing the barrel so people can't climb is damaging to gameplay and tactics. Also the rail WAS on CS:GO and nobody actuly cared. I rly think that people are ranting on everything in CS2 just because there is nothing else to rant about. Subtick is fine for gunplay but the >ANIMATIONS< are off. Maps are ok and, unless you're blind and can't see the fifference between dark blue/dark brown and middle gray you should not be the one complaining :/. CS2 is amazing. What I think Valve should focus on is, in this order, Anti-cheat, Matchmaking, removed maps, visual feedback for hitting/missing(for better info's) and subtick animations

Less is more. But - you could go valorant's route of removing all details away from sight lines. And that would make stuff boring quickly. There should be details in sightlines, but they shouldn't be super hard to see like those before barrels. And could be not in frequent areas.

I fck hate inferno, cant even play it on my pc

As someone who's too much of s perfectionist and loves some high quality detailing I see this as a stupid argument:c

people whine about decluttering then also whine about visual noise for some other game

henlo also obligatory "FIRST!!" edit: nvm I was second :(

These are good changes imo, makes the map more readable and helps playablity without just removing all detail and compromising the visuals, more doesn't always mean better, also gameplay > visuals for any game imo

This is exactly why I don't play competitive games. The nitpicking is insane

This is why competitive games are for terrible

They can add as much details as they want outside the playable space. Yes it's nice that the game looks "good" now but the core of counter-strike is a tactical shooter.

Hey LED, You should refrain from deleting comments that point out you using Wolfcl0ck's footage at 0:34 without his permission. Instead, you should record your own footage or get footage from someone else (make sure you have their permission this time!)

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No

The desire for Source 2 was for better optimization and netcode. I'd rather be playing 1.6 maps than have water reflections that tank FPS and extinguishing mollies stuttering.

I agree with this video. The Library and Balcony changes are perfect as no detail was lost but it enhanced the gameplay, where shrinkage of the inlets (for a lack of better words) only serves to remove/decrease detail while not noticeably increasing gameplay.

God forbid someone have fun in a competitive game

The revision to maps because "player visibility" sounds like a skill issue.

I know I'm late, but. For people with ADHD, its easy to get distracted by virtually any detail.

If Valve likes detailed maps, why don't they make more singleplayer games?😢

Who tf is immersed in Counter Strike

nice video

I think we should return to the SE versions just more extreme... a devbox/1.6 style map and an artistic casual version...

I feel like the complaints about Valve's changes are a bit overblown. Most of these details still look fine and nice.

Being able to reduce your visibility should be part of pro play imo

I like more art in maps. I don't game anymore, but I played both alpha and beta versions of original CS, and those maps were bleak, barren, and just plain ugly. Details are good, but they need to be functional and make sense.

like ppl say, if you let competitive players decide how a map looks, it would be devoid of all personality in the name of "balance"

"omg this map is so bad terrorist in that position is literally invisible" Sounds like skill issue to me

Csgo comp cry babies are never happy

They shouldn't call the game CS, it is something else. Or admit it's still in beta I hope for their success either way

It's sad and I can't stand people like Eddie Viri

No, it's perfect. Details shouldn't have to be sacrificed so sweaty tryhard competitive players get an extra 2 fps.

I hate counter strike competitive players. Change all the textures to grey boxes aside from the characters then you have true competitive for them.

In other words: no, it is not too pretty. Actually the comp scene is too sensitive for gameplay elements not established in the narrow meta of the game. This has been seen observed and critized in SSBM community where traditional glorification of horizontal maps like final destination which favors specific gameplay and essentially leaves potential of many characters unrealized. Multiple leagues recently have allowed more diverse stage options: even Poke Floats. This also has affected TF2 at some 2014-ish point; Valve apparently had taken some feedback from some pro TF2 players about weapon balances. Valve then buffed Phlog and Short Circuit based on their feedback, resulting in a catastrophe on Quick Play servers with 12v12 people. The pros had given honest feedback to valve with their own experience which is 6v6 and highlander. There mass spam isn't an issue and matches are highly organized. Takeaway is that comp usually narrows down freedom of expression to a minimum and should be taken as a side dish and not the main course.

I disagree. Keep the clutter. But I’m not a pro gamer so I don’t really care about player visibility due to clutter. They just made these maps uglier and less fun to play in

imagine booting cs2 and getting shafted by haxxors all day.

I am still mad they removed csgo from my hard drive and made access to it way harder, hence effectively breaking and killing one of the best games I honestly cannot understand why big companies act like that: valve killing csgo and tf2, google trying to kill youtube, mojang trying to kill minecraft I really don't want internet to devolve like this

The features that valve thinks are too detailed for a competitive gameplay should’ve been applied only to Premier modes imo. They were really cool until tryhards who cant enjoy a game like a normal person responded with negative feedbacks. Im not saying that I disagree with all the changes, some changes like the bar that they removed on Inferno B site is acceptable, but others like the flying pigeons (idk if thats correct lol) in the sky in Inferno, and the leaves falling in Overpass was really frowning to hear that they removed it. Anyways great video, keep it up! 🙌🔥

CSGO was the right balance. CS2 maps have tooooo much

Answering the title. No, it's fine. It's details don't hurt readability. So as long as Valve respects that, they can add all the detail they want.

If someone genuinely cares about immersion in CS then they should go play a different game. Valve could replace every single map with a dev graybox version and I would not care in the slightest. Of course they would never do that because of player count and viewership reasons, but for me personally I wouldn't care.