can someone explain to me how moving FD to a counterpick would change anything?? in the matchups where it matters, they're NEVER striking to FD. take marth vs fox for example--in a bo5 marth will still only be able to go to FD after winning a game. this is already the case. what difference does it make??
@@pIayingwithmahwii for a concrete example, I play falcon, and in the spacie matchup when FD is a starter, the spacie is gonna ban BF and DL, and I have to choose between FD, Fountain, and Yoshi's to go to for game 1, so basically all awful stages. With frozen stadium I get to use my two bans on fountain and Yoshi's and go to stadium.
A stage without platforms is not fundamentally a bad concept for a competitive platform fighter stage in my opinion, but FD is just too large in Melee-probably a consequence of its original purpose as a boss battle arena. I feel like the smaller size of FD in Ultimate alleviates at least some of the issues you bring up. If FD in Melee/PM were modded to be more like the size it is in Ultimate, would that be an acceptable solution in your opinion?
I agree with this take. One reason I like the idea of a no platform stage is that there's at least 1 stage where characters with weaker aerial games can't get platform camped.
@@Fettercini ooo I've never thought of that, I'll have to think about how a size decrease would effect things. Yeah I agree that pure ground movement isn't inherently bad, but it can manifest in toxic ways in the meta, which was one of my central points
I think puff likes platforms to avoid laser pressure from spacies and wave dashing off of them to mixup approaches, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Hbox pick this stage even when he’s used his DL counterpick up
Yeah, Puff generally likes NOT FD vs spacies and Marth. But vs Peach or Sheik, Jiggs does really well in neutral and juggle. Jiggs was kind of hard to classify in that sense
Got be frozen though. Transformations makes that stage polarizing imo. Until we can ensure we wouldn't get brought down for modded stages. It will never happen
Tbh I recognize it's not the healthiest but I just love seeing fd in matchups where there is actual interaction, as you just see the rawest, purest versions of melee's ground game and some of the most brutal and chaotic scrapping
Thanks for voicing your opinion in a non-toxic way lol, a lot of people been angry commenting. Yeah there's stuff to like about FD which is why I included some in the ending sections. Def very cool sometimes, and very toxic others
Id love for frozen stadium to be a starter and fd to be a counterpick. though the community hasnt even switched to frozen stadium yet so who knows how long it will be or if it will even happen. loved the vid btw great work!
I agree overall, but as you brought up yourself: In PM (and all other games that have a larger stagelist than Melee) there will always be the option to ban it. It is one of the most polarizing stages, so sees a lot of bans, but people also feel almost forced to ban i.e. Wario's against Ganon, which I personally don't have a problem with.
I really like this as a conversation point, as a melee spectator and overall smash enthusiast its been regarded to me as a fair and neutral stage for so long its just been embedded in my mind as one of the legal stages, but hearing this new take on it was really eye opening. (I guess my pfp kinda adds to the story too, but its just a joke.)
I think removing FD would reduce the playstyle variance of the game. I think lamers are an important part of the ecosystem, and I don't think FD is broken in top 8 matchups.
As a yoshi, I enjoy most of the other stages over FD. I think the stage is an interesting experiment of what do happens when a platform fighter has no platforms. Also, I feel as though FD experience is good for a game like melee where the speed of gameplay is usually fast and slowed down neutral can be a fun shifting of gears.
Pretty interesting, I loved this video. I like thinking of the game in this way, and I appreciate bold propositions to change the status quo. However, isn't the logical conclusion of this way of thinking simply two characters on the same stage every time to maximize the amount of potential for good and balanced play? Maybe that would be hype lol idk. I really don't feel this but it's just in the back of my head. Anyways dope video.
Yeah. I really like this video and i even agree with the general points, but while things like neutral do become a bit more simplified, i dont think its THAT much of a downgrade to the point where you can call it "bad" for competitive play. Just like you said, going by this logic, there would indeed be a stage that is the most complex, so why not always opt for that one. I think the answer in that scenario is that while things can be more simple or complex, ironically its not that simple, it can also make things different. Maybe its less technically complex but also emphasizes spacing or basic footsies that other stages dont BECAUSE of their platforms. While adding aspects to a stage can increase depth, i dont think its a 1 to 1, or even necessarily true.
Yeah i mean the reason i dont mind it is cause it's a single stage. If i really dont wanna I'll strike it. But FD is without a doubt the least complex stage. Melee platforms are nothing like Ultimate. They have a ton of technology and techniques like shield dropping, buffered shield drops, edge cancelling etc. Yes it really is THAT different. It's just a fact now with how the meta has progressed
Ah the good ol' slippery slope. There's is a lot to be said about the argument of balance vs complexity. When I think of a balanced game, I think of something like Nidhogg, which purposefully removes complexity for the sake of balance. Melee is interesting because it's so BROKEN lol. Like other fun flashy fighting games (UMvC3 and PM comes to mind), Melee has to come to terms with complexity and balance to avoid really dumb interactions and play (banning walled stages, walk offs, etc). Because Melee is so complex, my personal sweetspot of balance and complexity doesn't involve FD or two chars playing the same way vs eachother. TLDR: I like a bit of complexity but I don't enjoy people spamming win conditions on FD, which is what the stage incentivizes. At the same time, I don't like so little complexity to have the entire game being fox dittos on BF.
Awesome video, I really like hearing smash analysis from a professional level. Can't wait to see the Expanding Stagelist video if you decide to go for it :)
I like iBDWs solution which is to make a counter pick unavailable if you lose on it. This would not drastically alter the game and it would make for some exciting moments when players at a disadvantage still win.
That was really well-put. I play Marth in both games, but after watching this I think I wouldn't be upset with an FD ban. I almost want to say I would miss watching the spacie chaingrab, but honestly it's only the way Marth ends the chaingrab that is interesting. Everything from like 0->40 is just an execution test.
Ok, my question pretty much was going to be isn't limiting player options just as much a valuable showcase of adaptation, and pretty much you answered that with "I don't like it". That's not throwing shade btw, I just wanted to say thank you for explaining this in a way that a non platform fighter player could understand the complexities. I think I see it differently because as long as it's "fair" it's fine and the less bans the better but hey, legitimate ignorant outsider here
Good vid. I will say that while platforms can increase complexity in some punish situations, they can incentivize non-interactive gameplay in terms of platform camping which personally, I don't see as an interesting or essential part of the game. Smaller, lower to the ground platforms can make certain punishes even more brain dead than FD chaingrabs aswell. For all its faults at least FD forces you to interact with your opponent, especially if you're down a stock or behind in %.
That's true, platforms are a weird topic as well. I say they're generally better than flat stage however, as they simply increase options (defensive and offensive) rather than reducing them
In my opinion, in a competitive fighting game like smash you need to test players in all sorts of environments (bigger stage/blast zone, smaller stage/blast zone, 3 platforms stages, 2 platform stages, no platform stages) to see who the best player really is. It also gives the opportunity for more characters to shine than just the ones who really benefit for platforms. It decentralizes the meta. You said in your video that the game gets less complex on FD but my counter-argument to that is that it is only true for SOME characters. Other characters have a lot more difficulty in certain matchups on this map and this is exactly why it makes a good counter-pick map and why it should stay in the game. In short, it balances the game and decentralizes the meta.
Great points, but my favorite top 10 players that use characters that are better on FD won't benefit from this and HBOX/other floaties would get buffed with the changes (this is a joke, but also the main reason I don't see this happening LOL)
The big problem is that the first counter pick a player has, the other player doesnt get a ban. If they did, you'd only go to fd (or any strong counterpick) once
Love the video but as a Marth main I could never agree to a ban. Counterpick is fine. It is too fun to see 0 to death combos and it is good for melee to have a stage where perfect punishes are more frequent imo. The forbidden counter argument in melee though is that you can just pick a different character! The lack of interaction is minor in most cases and a lack of neutral interaction can happen on many other stages but most people don't play melee that way. Of course im not talking from a top player perspective though. Im just kind of okay at the game Not a super thought out point. just wanted to throw out something Edit: some people in the comments are saying shorten the stage. I like that too
i gotta say im a marth player and i HATE fighting spacies on FD. I have to fish for grab the whole time and avoid their lasers while taking damage and hoping i win the neutral interaction because if i dont im gonna take some percent or die. And yeah all i need is one grab but at my level the spacies are so campy and good at getting away that its just such a better option to go somehwere like pokemon stadium or battlefield with platforms i can follow up on while also having more options in neutral rather than just praying for that one grab to appear out of no where. Great video! If I see another one like it from you I will be sure to give it a watch and a like!
Right? Lots of potential stages in Ultimate but are banned because "this stage affects two characters if they do this very specific thing that is easily avoidable, banned". The smash community needs a different head group that is more open to experimentation.
@@EduardoFlores-bt4fo I think it’s because people don’t want the stage lists to be too large or something. Mew2king uses a pretty large stage list in frame perfect series and pretty much everyone hates it
I think it's hard to argue to ban it, moving it is a better solution but I think it depends on why you want to ban it, if people would decide you would probably have a 5 times grab limit for puff and no wobbling, but with so few legal stages without rng (aka battlefield and fd) it is hard to say it's the right choice in my opinion. If I could personally ban one stage in vanilla melee I'd for sure ban stadium with its transformations.
Hey Junebug! This is one of the main reasons our scene has Final Destination as a counterpick, and had it that way for Poi Poundaz 1 and 2. Don't think we'll ever ban it, but maybe at Poi Poundaz 3?
I say FD is the necesarry complement to the classic Tri Plat design to stages like Battlefield and Yoshi's. Defensive play isn't inherently bad and there will always be unbalanced match-ups. Balance alone doesn't make a great game.
I personally like banned stadium, FD and FoD are counterpicks, and DL YS and BF are starters. Stadium is way longer and the platforms are low enough to actually enhance the punish game. Add in Wonkier stage walls and a lower ceiling makes makes stadium a more decisive FD, and having 2 FD options in our ruleset is the real problem, because you cant avoid both in even a Bo3. FoD is the logical opposite to FD. The platforms actually inhibit the punish game and the stage favors characters with strong platform movement and good shield drop options. With 3 starters, you each get one strike. You simply just tell the puff player you dont wannna play on DL. As a fox you tell the sheik or marth you dont wanna play on BF. You probably wouldnt need to even rps for first strike unless you both have the same interest. I.e., a ditto. Idk, this always made the most sense to me. Ive been playing so long that thelake counterpicked me to brinstar with zelda at my first tournament LOL
I know this video isnt aimed at me as a party smasher, but I have always loved FD for the amount of chaos it brings when you are playing casually. No platforms + the flat level with high items and 4 players forces everyone to always be in the thick of the fight while asthmatically squeezing out potential breather momemnts. Competitively thought I think you make some good points.
Been saying this for a while now, what's your opinion on using stage hacks in the future of melee? Especially considering the continual movement towards fan-made products for melee, i can see stage hacks being a huge success in the future, or a moderate problem at worst.
Personally I'm pretty partial toward not using modded stages in general. I think it takes something away from the game when you have to go in a modify game files from what people are typically going to have at home.
I'd argue mods are a part of Melee. We've been using UCF for a while now, Slippi and 20XX and UnclePunch enhance the player experience, and almost every top player is on a modded controller
Washington State melee did a long period of what you suggest: Frozen stadium as a starter and FD as counterpick. I thought it was great, mostly because I hate Stadium's transformation shenanigans in important matches, and I'm a peach player who hates Marth/Peach on FD and how good players know to abuse their speed advantage vs peach on FD.
wait i dont get it. how does putting it as a counterpick instead of a starter fix the problem? isnt the problem that people counterpick to fd? nobody is complaining about having to start on fd
Yea this doesnt make sense. FD as a starter or counter pick, should see just about the same amount of play as before. Having it as a counterpick stage only succeeds in shafting players in a scenario where they both wouldve agreed to start FD.
Great video, FD sux....melee stage list should just be starter BF CP frozen stadium, DL I could see an argument for yoshis and Fountain being there instead for CPs
I enjoy the stage it makes the game like boxing simple straightforward but still incredibly complex and fun to watch. While the other stage's are more MMA where now you add a few more complex situations into the mix and next thing you know you're on the platform and some 250 pound absolute bowser of a man is just four stocking your skull but you've got that slide off di so you manage to get him in a marth triangle choke and make him unplug his controller dog
The argument that neither player has incentive to approach is not true because of port priority, even if neither player has a lead the player furthest from port 1 NEEDS to approach if they don't want to lose on timeout. The problem arises when a character who has no viable options to approach gets the lower port number, icies vs puff being a good example. If there a rule that afforded port 1 to these characters in certain matchups, then there would not only be an incentive to approach - but the _ability_ to. This is similar to the argument llod has made that puff should auto lose timeouts because - unlike peach approaching puff - puff has the tools to contest peach offensively. This still does not solve the issue of laser camping, as even if the spacie is forced to play on port 2 - they are able to gain the lead back without needing to commit to an approach. A laser limit would not solve this problem because a character like fox only needs to shoot 1 laser in order to put a character like peach in disadvantage, and can proceed to platform camp without a chance for peach to catch up to him and gain the lead back. _this_ is where a stage like FD is necessary, so the fox player cannot circle camp by escaping to platforms when they are pushed into a corner. Pokemon stadium fulfills a similar solution, but characters like falco can still effectively circle camp characters like icies or luigi by using the platforms extra height in conjunction with his high jump height, air mobility, and lasers - I'll while not risking violating a hypothetical air time limit due to his fall speed greatly reducing the time he spends in the air. FD allows the losing player to catch the camper on their landing with superior disjoints, invincibility, good burst options, or whatever else they may have. Based on all of this, FD in combination with laser, airtime, & ledgegrab limit should be afforded as a counterpick to certain characters alongside the option to take port 1
Why frozen stadium if it then becomes a second battlefield? (Honest question, I know there are a few differences like the platform sizes, but I still think frozen stadium takes a portion of variety and adaptive gameplay out of melee)
There's a variety of reasons stadium is a bad stage competitively. Walls, circle camping, infinites, to name a few. Frozen stadium is a lot more solid. Also it wouldn't be a second BF since there's no top plat
If you are fast you Will have an advantage on FD That's why he would Say it Should not be legal But making It a counterpick in melee? I would not want more PS melee lol
having only stages with platforms polarizes gameplay towards unecessary platform movement and aerials and detracts from the endless complexity of the grounded game
What about Maps like Dreamland where floaty characters live 200 some percent every stock should we ban that too? Just because certain characters Excel on stages without platforms doesn't mean that platform stages dont favor certain characters as well.
This is gonna sound stupid but can we like....just ask Nintendo not to care? Like i doubt anyone has tried asking... The only issue i see is that the easiest way to do it is modded isos and wiis which are probably a no go. There has go be a work around somehow
FD is the dumbest stage in competitive melee and it's not even close. I'll take 45 seconds of waiting for rock/fire to disappear or falling through the stage floor over this flat boring piece of crap any day.
@@Parpeing Nothing I said was dismissive or elitist. You're quite welcome to play however you want. But when competition and money is involved we should be removing variables that throw it to the wind. Don't throw a hissy because I disagree with you.
two criticisms: first, pokemon stadium is an even bigger stage with low platforms to the point of near irrelevancy, and smaller blastzones. this makes the "keepaway neutral" tactics just as strong if not stronger than they are on FD due to them not needing to be maintained as long in order to reach kill %. the punish aspect is nerfed due to the platforms, but all your criticisms of the neutral that FD encourages apply almost as validly to frozen stadium. secondly, you completely didn't address the biggest criticism of a switch: FD is inherently a check to the strength of spacies in stage select. take away the guaranteed ban of FD from the spacie and matchups take a step toward's fox's preferred stages. peach, icies, luigi, doc, mario, probably a few low tiers too but i don't know enough about them.
Hey man I'll address both of your points. 1. I believe neutral complexity is increased on stadium as well. You may have misunderstood my point on the nuance of neutral on FD. Even if keep away neutral is strong (which is generally is on every stage lol), characters don't have the option to kill off of single conversations as easily, so their neutral is inherently different. Think of an Peach or a Sheik spamming dash attack at lower percents on FD versus accounting for a platform escape. Also, platforms are VERY relevant in neutral. As a Sheik player, Stadium would be horrible if I didn't have a platform in matchups like ICs, where on FD it truly is horrible. So I don't think Stadium and FD have similar gameplay in neutral or punish. 2. Spacies aren't checked or unchecked by FD. It's pretty complex. Like I say in the video, Falco does really well in neutral on the stage and Fox generally does well in both. For example, Falco players generally wouldn't mind fighting Luigi on FD, as Luigi has no way to get around Lazer. Fox vs a character with a weaker neutral or punish on the stage (think Falcon or Sheik) is extremely strong. They generally get punished pretty hard on the stage, as they do other stages, but I don't think it straight up nerfs them, because it helps in so many matchups. Hope this clarifies, I can DM you if you wanna understand my perspective a bit more.
FD gives two players the chance to play their character(s) to the fullest without anything getting in the way, and imo, there's something awesome about that
uh, i feel like all your issues with FD could be extended to every stage and to smash itself. of course characters that can force you to approach or punish well will do well on FD because they’ll do well in general in smash bros
can someone explain to me how moving FD to a counterpick would change anything?? in the matchups where it matters, they're NEVER striking to FD. take marth vs fox for example--in a bo5 marth will still only be able to go to FD after winning a game. this is already the case. what difference does it make??
Yeah, Puff was hard to classify. She definitely doesn't like FD vs chars like Fox or Marth. Then again, she does really well against a char like Sheik or Luigi (maybe Peach), where her juggle state and neutral are incredibly strong. That is definitely one of the points in the vid that was the weakest lol
