Every Smash Ultimate Stage and Why It's Banned #1 (Analysis) 

This is so underrated. Why doesn’t it have more likes? Here, take mine

great delivery but stale material like, come on, i'm not trying to be defensive here, but the whole smash players don't take shower joke is getting really old

@@Jackie_burnp it's not a joke though it's actually a problem

Are you talking about great cave, because i hate the stage

@@palpatinerocks3260 No Its not Great cave offensive. I was thinking it was the one with Palutena's guidence and then i realized it's literally a shower. He was making a joke.

The hell, it actually is

is it tho? battlefield is in smash 64.

@@antondeak9580 True, but it's only accessable in single player

@@gavinkeith4708 but there have been 64 tourneys where fd and dz are hacked in and legal

@@antondeak9580 No way man, that's Duel Zone! (I'm not being serious, but I remember being so confused when I saw the name Duel Zone before realizing that's what it was)

Ah yes, a fellow enlightened one. Just turn the timer off or you may never reach each other in time.

I have a game type called Hell which is just Great Cave Offensive on unlimited time.

I think they banned it because of its tiny blast zones

tymandude 1 no thanks

It's part one lol

I agree!

Oh. asterisk REALIZES ALL STAGES WOULD BE BANNED asterisk. wait noooo.

Too many polygons for that

@@robloxbob4149 Boxing Ring is Super Legal, Let's Go!

@@EngineerLume Cool.

Yoshi's Island Brawl is too and he talked about it like it wasn't.

Pretty much yeah Honestly competitive players should embrace the new gameplay opportunities, combo routes, and options that are made possible by slants and small walls Also SOME walk offs are perfectly fine to play on, the only reason they're banned is because they're walk offs and if you're opponent FUCKS UP AND GETS TOO CLOSE TO THE THING THAT KILLS YOU AT THE EDGE they could die for it Y'know, that thing that's common sense to most players that are skilled enough to not need to cheese their opponents? That every other stage has since getting too close to the blast zone is always a threat?

lylat and smashville and fd are definitely all battlefield clones yup 100%

@@mae_lia battlefield without top platform and battlefield without platforms

@@zeno1099 yeah you definitely know what clone means. "Guys this stage is just like battlefield but with major differences, it's a clone." You're not just a clown, you're the entire circus

@@mae_lia bro it's a joke have you seriously never heard that

@@zeno1099 I haven't I apologise, I'm too used to people not having the sense to know what good legal stages are. (Also I like just woke up lol) again sorry lmao

Yeah, very biased

When did he say that? 2:28 "Also keep in mind this is just my opinion, but i will try to argue in a *mostly* objective way". He never tried to be as objective as possible.

Hes trying but of course hes bias and subjective andnthis is based on what he thinks. Video games aren't a science and hes not perfect by any means.

@@dramotarker1352 It was a hyperbolic quote. But also, right there, he said it right there. In _your_ quote. Ta da. We're on the same page. Don't worry.

@@notswush Yeah of course. But here I was hoping he was gonna explain why _tournaments_ ban it, not why he hates a stage. Like idgaf if this guy hates walkoffs and mentions it 20 times, and when he explained why walkoff stages were banned in tournatments, that's what I wanted to hear! Everything else? Nah. Because he's not a tournament.

As far as I'm aware it IS part of most competitive rulesets. It certainly is in the UK!

@@SpeedfreakUK Ive never played a ruleset that had Story as a starter

not only that but it also has the lowest ceiling for a tri plat, and the bottom platforms are higher than battlefield completely changing combo games for some characters. i would take bowser and palu to battlefield but i would NOT take them to Yoshis thats for sure.

Balents I also think its important to note that the platforms cover way more of the main stage (I think its because the main stage is smaller, but I’m not certain) I’m not certain how it effects most of the fighters but it can be a big difference.

Esam, best and most knowledgeable pika player in the world, has said before that battlefield is Pikachu's least preferable stage, but you look at pika on yoshi's and his offstage game is entirely different and way better than it already is.

to be fair, everyone dies at stupidly early percents for minor mistakes.

@@TheUltimateRare Exactly. That's why i don't see why that's a valid reason to ban wario ware. Isn't having quicker matches a good thing? And if you actually look at the stage measurements it's really not much shorter than some legal stages

@@BlueBoboDoo100 i guess they just don't like close blast zones or something. They'll have to think about it among themselves, my opinion won't really matter, I only play smash to mess around and destroy players, but not for 1v1 vs humans or serious events.

@@BlueBoboDoo100 I think they ban WarioWare because of it's close blast zones. Characters like Ganondorf would be stupidly overpowered on those stages and they would always be picked or counter picked, so having them banned allows for equal fights.

@@shizustrian that's precisely why we ban stages with close blast zones. And the Ganon example was spot-on. Also, Mac and Falcon can do really stupid shit on WarioWare. Like....REALLY stupid shit.

“This is list is objective” “I don’t like slants” MAKE UP YOUR MIND REKZIUS

Well yes, but actually yes

At least it's fun to cheese CPU's in spirit battles and whatnot.

Professional calsual

I like to turn on all Mario related items for mushroomy kingdom. Pro casual here.

Plus the low-effort vibe from the bad grammar in the transition images combined with the parts where he just complains about the stage make this vid feel more whiny than informative.

Yeah, the video is titled as an analysis but it definitely comes off more like an opinion piece to me. I don’t mind hearing opinions, but I’d have preferred to watch what I came for.

"There are too many pieces of unconnected land here" regarding Saffron City. I'm not saying Saffron City should be a legal stage, but why is it bad to have too many pieces of unconnected land? How many is too many?

As someone out of the loop, I don't understand why slants are a problem outside of "I don't like them"

Not to mention, for the majority as you said, he stopped stating which ones were legal and not legal, and just started ranting about the stages that weren't ideal, and what worked.

Yeah this stage is a nightmare for some characters that like battlefield I dont understand why he thought the stages were similar

also he doesnt talk much about the walls of yoshi's and fountain being much different either

Theres no reason to play on yoshis without randall (sad moment)

“It’s a tri plat” even though the changes make it play very differently

Yeah, this is a bad video tbh

Which makes it a good counterpick stage.

@@charKT-7461 it also gives the advantage to specific characters, which I thought was the whole reason multiple stages got banned in multiple games (like most Brawl stages, for example)

@@temporalCaster it gives advantages to characters who doesn't rely on platforms if their opponent does. For example, platforms aren't a big part in Bowser's gameplay, but they are a HUGE factor in Mario's.

It's definitely more advantageous for projectile characters. But, Battlefield is better for ladder-combo characters, so I think having the option is warranted.

​@@RacingSnails64except- it isn't. While platforms help get in, they're not necessary for most characters to get in if they know how, plus it's harder to get in on zoners on other stages. Take smashville, one center platform over the stage. If the zoner stands under that, you can no longer approach from above while they cover the ground, giving you even less options than FD. FD is not as good for zoners as it is for characters with strong advantage states with good juggling and ledgetrapping. No plats makes it harder to land, normally forcing you back to ledge where you can't get off since every option can be reacted to except jump, but jump puts you right back in a position to be juggled. Someone like Chrom gets much more of a boost from FD than a character like Young Link would, despite Chrom losing some combo routes

Well, FoD would still be banned. Even aside from being a battlefield clone, the framedrops are why it's banned. It was banned for the same reason in Melee doubles. I feel like Smashville wouldn't become legal with hazards necessarily either, since the platform did promote camping and really fucking degenerate early kills.

I don’t know why but I want ps with hazards

Better idea. Make a ruleset where the stage selection is random. Make the only stage that can be chosen at random the desired stage. Create a ruleset for each stage.

KINGOFDASLIPPYS Is being a battlefield clone a bad thing? Layout’s a clone but the music? and visuals?

While i dont think haz on/off combos will happen, i still like to argue that haz on restricted stage tourneys could happen if FoD gets patched... albeit with a small stage list by comparison.

Nah I saw it

he's little mac what do you expect? It did look cool though.

Nice PFP, Primarina is really overhated

Saxon Eyles Ult kids??? I started playing smash with brawl...

She even taunted him by balancing faboulously in the ledge

Competitive smash players on their way to pick the most boring stages to legalize and forget about the battlefield options for every stage:

"Bishops can attack from further than one square away, which really messes with how the game works. And the knight's diagonal move is janky. Queens and rooks have similar problems to the bishop, and can ruin a good en-passant strategy. Distance attacks in general tend to interfere with the core of chess, which is pawns and kings."

@@Ditocoaf Pfffft, yeah, a competitive Smash player's ideal version of chess would literally be checkers lmao. Every piece just constantly moves the same way every time. Different mechanics to keep track of fundamentally changes how you have to think in the middle of a match, so every piece should just jump diagonally one square. The rook can just move to the other end of the board in one move? How op! And don't get me started on castling! Like could you not just camp in the corner of the board behind a bunch of pieces?? What an unbalanced gimmick! Speaking of unbalanced gimmicks, uhg the knight! Up two and over one? Such a gimmicky way to move that's just unfun and unfair to fight verse, ban the knight! And the queen is way too op!! Ban the queen!!

​@@pinkie723Smash players don't bother to learn matchups or how to play against characters, evident by how they tried to ban Hero, Min Min and now Steve.

​@@opalanderIn fairness, Steve literally creates platforms in a platform fighting game. He absolutely breaks the game

it also perfectly describes wobbling, which has been legal for years

@Adam Thompson They don't win tourneys because they are bad, but that does not be they cannot kill extremely early, especially against a more casual player who doesn't know how to properly avoid a lot of Hero's jank moves.

@@Underworlder5 sure as hell shouldnt be

@@walkerschlott4518 Or magic burst/kaboom which you literally can't avoid sometimes lol

Yeah and at that moment I exited fullscreen put a dislike on this video, read your comment and wrote this.

underrated comment oh my god

Holy shit! 😂

Dang XD

It's not the hate that is striking, it's the lack of justification. You can tell this guy gets his opinions from reddit circlejerking.

@@sethb1629 SJW alert!! No fun and jokes allowed, this has been quarantined as a safe space!!

Honestly no stage should be banned by default, with only people taking turns baning stages befor each game

He literally said it's not MUCH different In ultimate the differences are so miniscule that they are negligible

​@@algotkristoffersson15with how many stages there are that would be actually insane. Have you ever been to a tournament? They need to stay on schedule lol

Yea, pretty much. "If it's anything besides floor and slightly different floor then it's banned. Oh, btw, we don't allow floor when it's interesting, only flat floors for us."

​@@lilyofluck371are you complaining?

@@kwestionablplus yes, ofc I'm complaining. Imagine having a competition that is based on how good you are at a video game, and more than half of the content in the video game isn't even allowed. Imagine how awesome it would be to see insane slope tricks and wall shenanigans on the screen! It would be so cool! And, it would create a lot of insanely hype moments. But no, they decided that they were just not good enough for main components of the game and just decided to remove it.

@@lilyofluck371 some of these maps are fun to play and not fun to watch, or are fun to watch but not fun to play, I think pro players have just been playing with the standard battlefield or final destination - type stages because its simple and doesnt provide any distractions from the main fighting of the game, and of course you are free to play on those flashy stages with unique layouts in your own time if its what you find fun 😇👍

​@@lilyofluck371yes, its so hype when your grab completely whiffs because of jank stage design, truly what we should reward players for!

Lmao its sad that's so accurate

IKR? **No fun**

Every fandom ever

"I Dont Want Anything" Everyone And Everything In A Nutshell

The problem with the 5 different Battlefields is that you get stage bans in competitive, so if they allowed all of the stages that are similar, you could ban Battlefield and end up getting taken to Dreamland, Yoshi's Story, and so on. That's why they're lumped together with Battlefield, or just banned entirely, depending on how the Tourney Organizer is feeling. As for them not wanting anything different... well, that's just a lie and a half. We love having different stages, we just don't want stages that change the gameplay too much. Competitive players usually play friendlies after the main tournament is over, where they sometimes even put on items or use custom stages. It's just that no one wants to lose $50k in prize winnings because MKLeo is circle camping them on New Pork City with Joker.

It looks great imo, and I love how the seasons change. I’m disappointed that it gets so much hate.

@@SuperFroakie82 It gets hate because "pro" players can't adapt to anything that isn't a flat platform.

gamrage my only small problem with the stage is that quite a few characters can’t hit the platform the center with attacks that would normally reach it. Oh yeah and occasionally Lucario’s up b just yeets you into the blast zone if you land on the stage.

@@catcherj1080 I see. I main Lucina so I didn't notice. I also secondary Inkling so I would use different options on the platform.

gamrage yeah it’s just something you have to remember with certain characters. Like Joker almost reaches and it looks like he could reach but it falls just short so, you just have to keep it in mind. I still think it’s fine as a stage.

You should find someone else to play with.

The stages need to be different in order to prevent redundancy. My local ruleset is currently having this problem, with basically three types of final destination. In competitive play, theres a striking system, in which you ban two stages you dont want to play on. If there are too many similar stages, then banning two stages would be useless as the opponent can just use the next best stage.

@@fullgirlsemiboy just add more bans lol

@@powerowl2120 too many bans and it becomes a time concern. Easiest solution is to remove redundancy. Why add more bans when you can just have one of each stage.

@@fullgirlsemiboy no I agree I was just making a joke on what the common response is to that. I do think we need more stages to choose from tho, like the smaller stages because they benefit the characters that dont get any advantage or even disadvantaged from the bigger stages which are the norm. And in that scenario we may actually need more bans if say wario ware and other smaller stages were unbanned, but at least those stages would have variety and purpose

@@powerowl2120 Definitely, and i also think lylatt should be legal as it isnt the stage it was in smash 4.

Aikko77 Go look at Project M or Rivals of Aether for a great example of what people think a good stage list for competitive play looks like

Hypocrites.

It's easy to argue against a strawman. But there are many ways to arrange the platforms to make it interesting; without adding walls, ceilings, walk-offs and slants.

the thing is for competitive specifically. theirs only so many ways to make a stage fair without adding in any cheese strats like camping and running away. this locks a stage into not being too big or too small. flat and with 0-4 or so platforms. anymore platforms and you get too big see"big battlefield" any unique features add walls ceilings and cheese. so in a video discussing competitive fights from a competitive player. your going to exclude just about everything. and if you make a state a little unsymmetrical you gotta be careful not to just make a stage where 1 side is better than the other else its jsut an advantage fest. ok so we run out of ways to move platforms around lets add a second ground area but symmetrically. sure but that again either makes the stage too big or makes the second areas too small. just because he lists a stage as not good or banned doesnt mean its a bad stage or that any of us are wrong for lking it. the problem is just if it can go wrong and ruin a match...it will because competitive players dont play to have fun they play to win. sure fun is important but if something unfun makes it into a match and that wins thats what people are going to do. this leads to a lot of banning and controlling of the rules.

In fact only Yoshi's Story is a bit similar to battlefield in all the legal stages. And even tho it has some differences like a wall on his sides, different blastzones and curved ledges which changes everything. All other BF-likes are banned. All other legal stages are not BF-like.

Yeah like in Mario Kart's AC stage, it could be a random season

AquamarineDust Because like we have two legal stages with the exact same aesthetic and it sucks

@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote true, they could have also gone with something like the museum (have the four sections be random or morphing) or maybe inside Tom Nooks store

AquamarineDust oh that sounds cool, like a different background each time with non distracting elements

@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote yup 😄

:D I know right? No argument against it given.

Sometimes you don’t really need an argument for stages like new pork and big blue big blue literally has a floor

Get good.

@@rjante2236 telling someone to get good when they- god ur an idiot

@@sonriku7331 "Ur an idiot"

@@sonriku7331 Isn't the point of competitive to get good?

@@sadlian3190 did you even read for context? :/

You're right, that's wEIrd.

Damn it, why language have to be hard.

I wish that was actually a viable rule. Way too many damn exceptions

Battle-failed

Except after c ... and “their” fuck English man

Metalfield. Oh no.....

Yeah why’d he say metal field

metal field

As an aside, "if you don't like the stage ban it" is a fine argument, you used fallacies to try to make it seem worse than it is. Everyone knows that Pirate Ship is a horrible competitive stage, but Warioware is debatable because of how much more reasonable it is. And again, this argument wouldn't be a thing if we simply allowed more stages and gave players more bans. There's literally no downside other than the set taking slightly longer, and the community having to adapt to something slightly different.

Dude I can't understand why the fuck they would be ok with Lylat but not with Halberd. Like wtf. I can understand why Siege is not ok, the slant is too much in my opinion and it gives an advantage, alright. But Halberd ????? Come on ffs. People can handle Pokemon Stadium in Melee but NOT HALBERD "BECAUSE IT IS NOT THAT OPTIMAL", in this video he didn't give any clue about what it was banned. Well, yes maybe the platform is a bit low, but they are banning it for that ? There are no walls, no camping, it's symmetrical, no platforms to the sides, blastzones are ok, but it's still banned ? I mean, if there are no reasons to ban it, then to me people deciding to ban this kind of stages are just litteral babies who just don't want to play the fucking game.

Since when has competitive Smash been “fragile” it’s fucking thriving

Fr fr. We now pick stages before characters, so pick your characters around the stages. Too bad no tournament organizers want to change anything about the ruleset

@@CCuppy29 He means that the community is all of a sudden very quick to ban previously legal stages

Small stages are great for heavy-weights, but there's a difference between being small and good for aggressive play and being so small that you consistently die at 70% playing more passively being completely unviable. For slants, it's a bit of a mixed bag. It can add to diversity (as you said with projectiles mostly going straight, as well as allowing distinct ledge options and the like), but you also run into some problems due to the height change. A person at the bottom of a slope has a major advantage because they are simply that much smaller, so certain moves will drastically change in spacing, some will downright whiff constantly, some will have odd kb angles, etc. It entirely depends on how they are set up, and how large they actually are. Sharking is another mixed bag, because it creates some interesting variety while also introducing some severe problems. For instance, ledge trapping is severely hampered due to how much easier it is to go below the stage to get a hit when trying to get off of ledge. Certain characters can abuse the lack of solid floor to cheese or stall for extremely long periods of time, and it completely reworks how disadvantage works, which isn't ideal. Depends what you mean for this one. If they're all stacked on top of battlefield as one pick/ban, then honestly, omega or battlefield stages just work better. If you want them to all be separate stages, then banning battlefield is legitimately pointless. No, not all stages are designed to buff top/high tiers. However, any stage that forces you to completely change the way the game is played is definitely a problem, because it forces you to learn a completely new set of habits and reactions specifically for that stage. This means that you are now forced to spend much, much more time learning to play the stage rather than just refining your normal play skillset. This wasn't always the case in previous games, but now that we do have these options, we can afford to be more choosy with our stages simply because comp players are focused around who is the best overall player.

Ben Passlow uh oh here comes the casual player here to say why a scene they know nothing about it terrible. Smash isn’t a shooter or a MOBA, it’s a fighting game. You act like these things weren’t tried out before, it’s like, the first Smash tournaments had items on and every stage legal, but they were eventually banned for being, well, trash

@@CCuppy29 He has a point. The Smash community hates changes and don't like playing outside of their comfort zone. Literally new possibilities for new play styles, new strategies, and more, but y'all are stuck in Smash 4.

Ben Passlow damn it’s almost as if, as if someone who’s spent more time on the game has a better understanding of it. Most competitive players including me started off playing casually, it’s not that we hate it, but a lot of stages aren’t fit for competitive play, I still enjoy them with my friends, but for serious practice I turn them off. Even with this, it isn’t hard to at least have the most basic semblance of respect for the competitive community, one of the best parts of Smash is being able to play it however you want, we respect casual play, respect us. Personally, my girlfriend plays casually, but still understands what I like to do and watches my sets on stream for support, it isn’t that hard

@Ben Passlow Smash hasn't exploded because it's a fighting game, which are almost always niche. Within the FGC, Smash is currently the biggest overall community. The problem with stages forcing players to learn is that smash in itself is already an extremely complex game to learn, especially in Ultimate. Most character vs. character interactions have dozens to hundreds of iterations that as a player, you have to recognize and adapt to. Rinse and repeat for every other type of interaction, and then add a mix of 70 characters. If the stage forces the player to learn specific habits and reactions for only that stage, you end up creating huge stage meta-games, which is not what you want for a stage.

No joke, a Shadow Moses Island tourney would be fun

Alpharad needs to do this

@@mr.potato He already did

Little Mac But actually we need a tourney where we have spirits

Rishi's jungle jam

I mean to be fair, "sharking" isn't even a valid reason anymore. Either Wuhu Island or Skyloft has no reason not to be a counterpick. This isn't Brawl where Meta Knight can camp under the stage indefinitely anymore and abuse ledge invincibility to negate punishes.

I disagree. Characters that can shark under the stage with no punishment force the other player (who isn’t camping) to either approach them from underneath (which is either an easy gimp, or free stage control) or avoid them altogether. The greatest example I can give is meta knight/jigglypuff vs any character with poor air mobility or bad recoveries on Skyloft. It means that the meta is now centralized around ONE strategy (that being sharking on Skyloft for easy kills), which invalidates any other strategy. MySmashCorner made a good video a couple (years?) back on this, and it still holds today. If you would like to see someone explain it better than me, you should watch it. EDIT: Although ledge invincibility is no longer abusable, there are still far too many problems that shift the meta too far towards one specific strat.

ledge regrab mechanics in this game make it so that sharking really isnt a viable option when compared to brawl. also, meta knight isnt a problem in this game. that was the #1 reason for sharking being so annoying in brawl.

@@Robbie_Haruna sharking isn't the only reason why wuhu is banned. The platforms get way too close to the blast zones, not as much as walk-offs, but enough to get it banned. also slants for both of them but I really don't care about that.

@@Robbie_Haruna Actually, it kinda does. Stages that you can pass through completely invalidate characters who rely on the wall or slant to get back up, such as Ness and Lucas, who bounce upwards towards ledge on solid stages, but not on stages like Wuhu or Skyloft. That's kinda why a lot of stages should have a solid board, so they have something to guide their up-B. With Lucina for example, if you are anywhere below ledge, you will grip, but you have to be much more specific with where you up B less you just straight up miss the ledge.

he said it was because it is not too different from battlefield the maps would be redundant and playing battlefield with different skins is redundant

The crazy thing is that he's wrong about a lot of them too, because the blast zone distance plays a huge part in things like Yoshi's Island vs Battlefield or PS1 vs PS2. It's fucking stupid.

Yoshi’s Island has slightly slanted ledges!

@@kwisowofer9872 yes big difference!

@@mayolover23 it also has higher platforms and the platforms go to the ledge, also the ceiling on Yoshi's story is really low

Same for castle siege

We should get at LEAST one or two out of warioware, yoshi’s story, or castle siege. I really hate pokémon stadium and how freakin big it is

Right!

Problem with WarioWare is that not only is it a small stage platform wise, but it's an extremely small stage blastzone wise. Ultimate has a lot of high base knockback moves that can straight up kill at 0 on that stage. It was only legal in Project M after they increased the size of the blastzones. I agree that most stagelists favor larger stages and that it hurts some characters, but Wario Ware is not the first stage you should look to.

no stage should be legal where certain high tiers have consistent setups to kill a good chunk of the cast at 0. warioware should never be legal, it makes the tier list even more lopsided.

that is because it should not be legal

@@bustylesbian Yet it _is_ legal, and viable, across all tournaments

Island has been banned at the last 5 Super majors

And I think Lylat Cruise is legal too, don't understand why he act as it isn't...

@@Ragnasorcerer Two reasons: 1. Slants Or 2. Too similar to Battlefield

It’s even more fun with 8 players.

*So good its good

Same happens to pacland (I love pacland just because of how bullshit it is)

there already is inconsistency in the competitive scene. if stitch face turnips, judge and misfires are fine, then so should slants. your unpopular opinion is probably more popular than you think

Has nobody here played Project M, with their stage list?

Bro i main Ganondorf inconsistency Is my third name I like slants too xD

okay, that’s great for you, but you should easily be able to see why pros don’t want something janky and inconsistent in the stagelist.

@@allofthelightsbykanyewest Because they can't be bothered to learn another part of the game ?

And can't decide if he wants more ledges or not.

This man's explanation against slants bewilders me, cause it's only the word "jank" and that's it. The jank slants even offers is so dissmisable that my mind boggles about people's complaints against them.

@@Halcypian to me it just gives the impression of "i hate it because of how different it is". can you really call yourself a pro player if everything has to cater to your tastes? i might be a bit harsh here, but it annoys me how the competitive scene hates everything that is different

@@Underworlder5 I wouldn't put Rekzius as the face of competitive Smash, he's far from it really. If you want to talk about prop player opinions, you should seek those who truly master the game, and most of those who do, such as Mew2King, Esam, ZeRo, people who's voices are backed up by some form of credence, tend to not complain and talk much about such supposive "controversial" topics because they're not.

@@Halcypian i have seen some videos from esam and zero. they seem like decent people, aside from zero having the "TITLE IN ALL CAPS" habit

THANK YOU. People don't understand that heavyweights are at a disadvantage with our current ruleset. Incenaroar especially and the smallest you can get is lylat which is lylat. And unlike other asymmetrical stages both sides have advantages and disadvantages so being slightly lower doesn't put you in disadvantage.

Palu side b is a problem

DesHex if palu just didnt have explosive flame, itd be a great legal stage, but she’s already top tier in the current ruleset and legalizing CS would buff her more

Same for warioware. It's a small stage but it's an excellent character based counterpick.

Yeah, small stages make slow heavys better and campy characters worse, I'm all for them

Nani? All my life I have been lied to!

People Will start banning It

Would that perhaps include Warioware? :3

Warioware too small rip. Theres mods on gamebanana that give it a project m sized blast zone and its fun playing ww as an actual stage.

So we are accepting stages like Kalos despite being very big but banning WarioWare because of size !? I've seen a lot of Pichus surviving at 120% on this stage and only allowing medium-big stages promote camping and slow matches (something that people don't like)

So many Ult players don't want fast paced games and prefer to just stay on huge ass stages like Kalos where they can live for longer and make more mistakes, dragging the games out to insufferable times. Warioware too small and unfun, right? Nothing more fun than seeing an Olimar or Sonic pick Kalos and camp the shit out of their enemy, right? Real fun! Legalize Warioware as a counterpick. It opens up the game to more diverse character choice, and promotes faster paced gameplay. "You can die from minor mistakes because of the blast zones" is *not* a valid reason to ban a stage. If you want Smash to be considered a fighting game, stop accepting mediocrity. The entire point of a fighting game is to play as close to perfection as you possibly can. If you fuck up and get punished and killed, that is on *you.* It is *not* a result of the stage. You *know* what stage you are playing on, *know* how easy it is to die on Warioware, and should be *on top of your game.*

@@ApexGale There's a difference between "counterpick" and "a specific archetype just can't play". Warioware is just a little bit too small, if it was just slightly bigger it would be perfectly fine. The problem right now is that it's so small that any passive/spacing play is incredibly hard to pull off at all, while aggressive in-your-face characters are unstoppable. Plus, kill percent drops by like 30%, which means that characters with good low percent combos but poor kill power get buffed to the moon.

lmao exactly

Burger With Fries and Mexico

Duel Zone. It's often hacked in the game.

@@JayCeeCreates duel zone is still not legal

JayCee Creates no it’s not. They just turn off the tree in Dreamland

No it’s not You can just keep jumping and hold while they attempt to get to you so it disappears and you move to the other cloud until it reappears

It's a cool concept for a stage, the execution is just... Not that great

Doesn’t even work as a good green screen because of the bubbles

I'd love to see Wario Ware and Castle Siege in competitive play. Very underrated stages and would help fix the lack of small stages.

I want wario ware so bad it is so fun to play on

#UnovaIsNotPs2

It would make characters like Incineroar, Little Mac, K Rool, Donkey Kong, and a bunch more characters a lot better.

Seriously, the fear of smaller stages is just agonizing. What's even the point of having counter pick stages if they are all just about equal? Also the dismissal of the "Just ban it" argument was way off base. Wario Ware is without a doubt a 100% perfectly legal stage. It's small size is why it would be a counter pick stage. I'm of the opinion that there should be no bans, why are we giving the winner so much power to make sure they get the fight they want. If you want to be the best then learn to fight in a smaller and larger than normal stage. Wario Ware and PS1 (It's bigger than PS2) should be counter pick. No bans.

if you get jab locked 30 times, you fucking suck just tech shit

@@scs44444 i think It was a figure of speech ti Say that losing jab locks would not ruin competive play xD

I agree with Cstick. Saying it should be banned because you can't jab lock on some parts of the stage is idiotic.

Whoa whoa whoa. You're expecting people to learn different combos for different scenarios in order to stay competitive? Hell, I'm still mad that platforms are legal. You can like, do really weird drop-through tech with those things. AND THOSE LEDGES.

@@safecyn8688 Those ledges are fucking crazy man. You can like hang onto them and stuff. Why can't we just have stages where the players are falling through an endless void with no ground? That would be so much easier and I wouldn't have to learn anything other than my character move list.

That’s called camping, not a tactical retreat

Slants mess up things like tech chases, jab locks, projectiles, moves that will hit or not, landing aerials etc. It's much harder to have full control of what will happen when slants are on the line

I'd love to see more slant stages become legal like Castle Siege and Mementos. I don't see the issue with slants at all. I mean, they're an issue, but that's the point. They're for counterpicks. Battlefield is good for ladder combos, FD is good for projectiles, Kalos is good for ledge-trapping, etc. The only competively-viable slanted stage I don't like is Yoshi's Island Brawl. It's just lumpy Smashville to me and feels really awkward, but maybe that's what gives it merit as an option.

Lylat is legal

​@@Mattroid99 then get good at it? Like, there will always be obstacles making things harder, so why are you stopping at slants? Remove platforms too because it makes some combos harder, remove the floor aswell because it makes dying harder, y'know what, just remove the whole game because you can't lose if you've never played. It's all so dumb

@@lilyofluck371 It doesn't make things harder, it makes them inconsistent. And fun fact most high level/top players were the ones pushing for Lylat to be banned the most Plus by that logic, why even banning stages? Let's fucking play competitively on Temple and make every match a 1v1 Sonic ditto because no one else can catch him up once he gets a small lead, if you think that's stupid get good with it. Do you see how silly your argument is?

i think this guy's main is a zoner so he don't like the idea

@@aqualacerta3961 it's that, but also it just stops D3's gordo's which isnt fair, if you suck in your own gordo and fire it to kill, and then it hits a slant instantly and stops, that's not fair

@@annthom5301 so dont fire off gordos there and adapt to the stage. That's the point of someone counter picking on you

I think most people don’t mind symmetrical slants on both sides like on Yoshis island brawl or Lylat, but ones in the middle of the stage like castle siege or mementos are kind of annoying.

thank you , this video is pretty bad tbh and the majority of comments i see are people complaining about it too

I'd keep Castle Siege banned simply because of the foreground. It annoys me so much.

Not to mention the forground obstructs vision at a certain angle, sadly.

@@Phaxtolgia that's the least of your worries as it only does it on the right side at predictable timings and spacing. The worst thing about Castle Siege is the height differential.

the problem is that seige is INCREDIBLY tiny (and complety invalidates some characters like bjr) and the blastzones on warioware make it a walkoff. they wouldnt help heavies and would just make the game more boring

He gives a reason always like it has slants or walkoffs then he says if he likes the stage

Tell me a stage that is opinion only

@@legoat3517 Big Blue, any stage that has the only issue of minor slants

@@zoramarslink5788 for big blue he says the ground tilts and the floor drags you a minor slant is enough of a reason too ban a stage in the competitive smash community eyes

Zora Marslink the slants part was not opinions. Some projectiles like the spacies lazers get messed up due to slants

Baffle Blend thank you, thank you so fucking much. All these comments are just “so if I understand competitive smash stupid and boring >:( they can’t even adapt to anything”. These people are clearly clueless

Mucho sexo... Digo texto

Reem lmao

just give them a time limit and more bans boom

I was forced to read this cursed sentence with my own eyes and now I can't unhear it.

This is why the DLC stages are built like that. That's a shame, they feel incredibly boring except for spiral mountain so far _because there's only so much you can do with "platform, a few smaller platforms, and some kind of gimmick that can easily be toggled off."_ And I'm a fan of all three series. Fuckin' sucks.

Nedoxu Still, it’s necessary for competitive play. A lot of stages are super fun with friends and casual play, but of course the more complex the easier it is to exploit a stage for an unfair advantage. Nintendo knows the competitive scene has always been a big thing for smash, they’ve learned since Brawl. So of course new DLC stages will be made fit for competitive play.

That's how competitive play is lol

@@derelictgbdavidlovo107 What makes exploiting stage design for an advantage "unfair"? I think it's more interesting if different strategies work on different stages. Why rule out any differences that you have to actually play around?

Ditocoaf a lot of “strategies” are cheap and don’t actually require any skill. It makes things really boring to watch and diminishes the experience entirely. Is it really that surprising that people want to watch skilled players PLAY the game rather than run around in circles and have a guaranteed win within the first 20 seconds?

Its really more about not wanting to go on the same stage because if your character is shit on battle field and u ban 2 battlefield like stages then you are still stuck playing on battlefield. I think the stages should not be banned but should be lumped into category called battlefield. Also if a stage is different enough where it can completely invalidate some characters or make others broken then it should be banned

Ben Passlow and then what? Never play your character because the opponent will always pick a stage that invalidates them?

@Ben Passlow i will always choose character variety over stage variety if my character sucks on triplats and big stages and i only have enough bans for triplats im being forced to pick up a secondary legalising more stages makes low tiers much worse and top tiers much better

@Ben Passlow also are you talkinv about fox mirrors in ultimate where there is only 1 good fox player you clearly dont watch competitive ultimate. How can you judge an entire competitive scene based on a meme that doesnt even aply too this game

Huh, it's almost like there's this thing called a middle ground where there's enough differences to increase variety, but those differences aren't so extreme that it creates extreme imbalances.

But warioware isnt bad for everyone. Someone good at killing off the sides or a slow character would love warioware. It is comparable to a ganon main always having ps2 and kalos banned to prevent getting camped out by projectiles

But pokemon stadium has it as well...

If Pokemon Stadium can have that problem and be legal, then that should not be a reason to ban Castle Siege.

@@curiosityman3704 Does PS2 have the issue as well?

@@frosslad26 ps2 is most often banned for being too similar to ps1 , so i guess , maybe , idn. But that doesn't change or invalidetthe argument presented , ps1 is legal castle siege sould be legal too. Wario ware too imo , all the stage on our current stage list heavily favors campers and if heavys or rushed down character are mostly bad it's because of that , a stage list shouldn't favor a playstyle over another , and should have stage that advantage/disadvantage everyone , smaller stage and stage with slants are good to counter camper or character that rellies too much on tech chase this is why it makes a good COUNTERpick , even walls i could argue aren't bad , walltech is basically the same as groundtech , if you don't you're punished if you do you can still get punished or be saved , it allows rushed down character and heavys to have more combo potential , it also advantage the camper that this comunity seems to like so much so why isn't it legal ?

it's because the competitive seen love campers , even if they say that they don't , think of it as a tsundere

I hate slants, as a D3 main I think all slants should be banned

@@aqualacerta3961 Exactly. Why else would timescamming be a legitimate strategy? If a match ever uses the full 7-8 minutes then there is a serious issue. It just boggles my mind that it is considered okay to just not punish such toxic deliberately evasive for the sake of being evasive behavior.

Because people love camping (see some old leffen melee match geez). Also i would love to play my Ganondorf with Warioware platforms lol.

So a game based on skill alows cheating and bans stages because cheaters dont want to play evenly. Why not just ban the people that use exployts?

yeah because its a small typo

It happens

BattleFAILED

@@unluckytoby buwu slants forces me to play differently and adapt , and they could make a good conterpick for the other player i don't want it * sad emoji face *

Ah yes, because you can adapt to a matchup but not a stage? Like jesus, the people who do competitive stage lists are trying to be professional right? Well isn't being professional, especially in a work environment, being able to deal with unexpected issues or unexpected results? Being *professional* about it?

@@TheKing-uh7zn yeah that was i was saying , that was irony as a response to toby

@@aqualacerta3961 yeh, i was also responding to Toby. sorry for not specifying that. My bad!

@@unluckytoby I agree. Randomness isn't okay (unless it's Hero, come on guys, he's midtier. don't BAN a MIDTIER!) Thats why stage hazards should be off. And some where there's still technically stage hazards can be banned. But a wall or a slant? Really? Cutting down the stage list to purely flat stages isn't fun, its boring. Slants and Walls add more combo potential to EVERYONE if you use them correctly. Will it be hard to get used to? Yes, but is how the characters bounce off a wall RANDOM? No!

It’s a clubhouse

I hate slants personally, just because I main D3, and slants just fuck up my gordo's which isnt fair

@@annthom5301 I love slants because I main d3 >.

I was gonna say the same thing when he acted like Rainbow Cruise was always banned, despite it being allowed in some tournaments

Primo Antonius slants are apart of the gameplay you cannot just say they make it “fucky” if you don’t know how they work.

Primo Antonius sounds like someone can’t adapt to the environment and shouldn’t be regarded as a “good” player.

@@sizzlingwall716 Slants make it easier for attacks to whiff if you're standing on the higher side

@@KaliTakumi I thought having the high ground was advantageous.

@@kosmosXcannon I don't know but slants have really made me miss tilts and side b's while on the high ground

Seiko G. 200% agree. Smash ultimate is easily the most conservative game yet with rule set. Ultimate players complain way too much about junky disadvantage. It's not even remotely that bad. Even melee today is getting experimental so I don't want to say that it has to do with living in a whiny ass society, but ultimate, ..... It's honestly a whiny ass fucking society. Like, the majority that agreed on our current rule set banning lylat, ww and yoshi's are such crybabys. Y'all make lyrics on a bad nu metal song sound like Sugar by brockhampton.

There is more nuance to WarioWare being banned than just ‘you die early’. If you can die _so_ early that it becomes grossly disproportionately favourable for characters that have high base knockback and efficient mid-percent kill moves then it’s difficult to justify even as a counterpick. Also, Randall is not remotely a universal positive. It’s impossible for players to realistically track his position through a match and plan for it, so he’s functionally a random stage element. For the impact he can have in a match that’s wholly unacceptable.

@@ShawFujikawa yeah randall is fun , sometimes he save you and most of the time he doesn't , there's nothing wrong with it ,+ he's legal in melee , next

​@Adam Thompson You're accusing me of being irrelevent when this conversation isn't even about Melee? If you want to talk about legality, consider this - the Japanese Smash Ult scene will go through the trouble of reenabling hazards if they want to pick Smashville or Town and City because they agree the moving platforms add something to gameplay. They DON'T do this for Yoshi's Story.

@@ShawFujikawa? Melee players do track Randal. Absolutely need to get good here.

K a m i k a z e

"you die too quickly" sounds like he has never heard of a glass cannon before. it just calls for different tactics, but i guess that is too much to ask for

very mad guy yeah I mean isn’t this the reason why people like Melee? And Rivals? Because you could possibly 4 stock someone in under a min?

it's because the competitive scene love campers and zoners but they don't want to admit it , like a tsundere

You’d have to do bans and picks for 100+ stages dude this idea is stupid

You might think this but ultimately the vast majority of competitive players wouldn't. They would just find that to be annoying and probably stop playing. Why should they stop playing the game in the way THEY want to just to appeal to your warped idea of what "should" be considered part of being a good player?

@@coinrush1 I believe it would be more enjoyable to watch. I also believe it would allow for insane strategies. Knowing and using the enviroment for your benefit is part of other competitive games too. And i believe that if you play games competitively, you shouldn't disable huge parts of the game mechanics because you can't be arsed. That'd be like saying you're really good at playing CoD but only without killstreaks, or LoL but without the items, or WoW but without potions, elixers and flasks. It means they're really good in extremely limited, special circumstances. Which i find way less impressive and more importantly, enjoyable. Not saying every match should be all-out chaos but it should be an option for players that know how to make good use of it when it's their pick.

Slants definitely add diversity, I think they're pretty clever myself.

​@@WetDogSquad Exactly, But you know the smash community....

@1998SIMOMEGA I wouldnt have a problem with top tier characters if their moves were balanced properly... ya lol

But mah Jigglypuff singlocks

Same goes for small stages. Like yes, Wario Ware and Castle Siege are small, but at least people who play non-campy characters want to add stage diversity instead of just calling to ban Kalos and Stadium 2.

I personally think the stages various hazards and walls and edges add a layer of excitement to the game. It’s more fun to watch someone jump and duck and flee while fighting than just watching two people run forward and punch each other.

@@YaBoiBrendo The issue with that is that it detracts from the pure skill environment that competitive Smash tries to create. These stages are a lot of fun casually but in competitive play, they mitigate a lot of the technicality and are a bit janky to play on. They’re fun but playing them competitively would be missing the point of competitive smash.

A big part of the problem is that for some reason stages like Dreamland, Yohsis, and Fountain are banned, even though they are actually pretty different from battlefield.

@@mccookies3664 adapting is a skill in an of itself, if a slant throws your enemy in an unexpected angle how you react is a part of how skilled you are

@@AuroraAce. yeah for sure but "ducking and fleeing" is really just camping and not very fun to play or watch

Better yet, in organized tournaments set up some kind of actual penalty for using time-outs. If your 'strategy' involves not playing and keeping others from playing that just sounds like Traveling in Basketball.

honestly the minor ones arnt too much of an issue. having to work your spacing slightly different. okay. sure but i think some of the more sever slants should stay out simply because shorter characters could abuse the hell out of em.

@@MrOrdosan can you not developed a new way to play to counter that?

@@nunote2362 not exactly. but thinks like the slant on yoshi island basically makes it were everything hsort from up tilt just cant work. and vice versa for the high ground. those just arnt fun and to much work ((look at Venom. that map is probly THE least fun to play and its 95% slants and a single wall)) like slants like on lylate cruise ((specialy since it no longer rocks back and forth)) and even the ones on DK and even the hyule castle map arnt that bad ((disregarding the other issues that ruin it))

@@MrOrdosan I doubt uptilt is you only option, what about short hop aerials? Or characters with moving specials that could ride the slant?

Dude, couldn't finish the video, not cool