Is Mace Tyrell a Secret Genius? (ASOIAF Theory Feat. Fantasy Haven!) 

He's been called stupid openly in the book, that makes him the smartest person in Westeros

I don’t think Mace is as dumb as people think he is, but he’s also not a hyper genius. I think he’s smart enough to realize that everyone needs him so much that he doesn’t really have to try to get most of what he wants.

Mace sounds competent enough to not actively screw over the advantages comming his way. An aparently very rare ability in our world

Casual readers: Hehe, Mace is such a moron People with too much free time: Mace is the key to all of this 400 IQ: Mace the Ace is too stupid to lose

I'm a middle grounder on this one I think Mace is likely a good deal smarter and more capable than he's given credit for but not a genius. There's no way Olenna as Mama Tyrell raised a fool and I do think he relies on being underestimated just like she does. Though, I think it's a role and strategy the Queen of Thorns has foisted on him and he's terribly insecure about it. Hence why he pressured 2 if his 3 boys into being Uber warriors.

Being a devoted and loyal Tyrell fan, id like to believe Mace is a genius, but it doesnt matter because he's surrounded by incredibly powerful, intelligent and accomplished family members and bannermen, he only needs to be the face and it allows them to steer scenarios in their favour, but i always bring this up: the Tyrell's are not main characters, their purpose is simply to provide immediate resources,, infantry and strength to whomever they back and having always been loyal Targaryen followers... thats all the reader needs to know.

This was lots of fun! Thanks for giving me the time to objectively prove Mace Tyrell is an 8D Chess Grand Champion

Mace is the definition of "he's doing his best"

Tbf the targ loyalty makes some sense if you consider the fact that the targs gave them highgarden and the reach. Like the Manderlys appear to be super stark loyalists because they gave them the White habour

I prefer the idea he just sorta stumbled into success. It happens sometimes by accident, not everyone has to be a bond villain that's 4 steps ahead of everyone with all these plots

“The Reach is relatively in tact.” Euron: “is that a challenge?” 😈

I suspect that he is more intelligent than we've been led to believe. Olenna is definitely still heavily involved, but she couldn't do anything without his approval (given the sexism of Westeros). Most likely, he is collaborating with her, and the two of them play up his buffoonishness to make negotiations easier. After all, if his mother is openly calling him a buffoon, then people who treat with him might not realize he's getting everything in any deals he makes. It's a ploy and they're in it together.

I honestly don't mind whether Mace is a genius or a dork, I admire him for being a proper family-man in a world where all fathers treat their family like cattle.

If he is, he's kept it well hidden. Gotta respect the commitment to the bit.

Laying siege is a common battle tactic but as it's not an entirely direct confrontation, despite the fact that he was literally starving out Stannis, the martial lords of Westeros don't take it as actively harming him. Great optics. So, with Robert winning, he suffered no loss to his power. But had Storm's end fallen, both of Robert's brothers would have been captured. Incredibly valuable hostages. Even if he didn't capture the castle, if the Targayens won, he'd still be considered one of their greatest allies. What sort of reward do you give such a man...? A betrothal. Margery with Prince Aegon, or with Viserys if Aerys disinherited Rheagar's line.

I know this is a joking video. But has anyone noticed that Tyrells have so far to get ANY PoV? The only thing we know of them is what OTHER people think of them. It is hard to see what they think. And the few times they lost control, we actually see that they are VERY dangerous. Loras went on a berserk rage and killed around three (Supposedly) skilled Knights. And is in fact a surprisingly cunning tactician if his joust agaist Gregor says anything. Margaery has ALWAYS been aware of Cersei's game and was one uping her left and right. So yeah while I think Mace is no genius, I doubt he is an idiot.

"Mom and don't forget to make sure that Stark girl thinks I' m a dumbass, it's very important"

The Virgin Book Reader: Mace is a oaf that has just gotten lucky The Chad Crusader Kings Players:Mace has the Genius and Intricate Web Weaver traits.

I’m disappointed that you guys didn’t mention Mace “not noticing” Oberyn slipping poison in Tywin’s cup during the trial

I always thought Renly was smarter than he got credit for, and played the fool to his advantage. If it wasn’t for a dark magic he couldn’t possibly have known about, he’d have become a hugely popular king with minimal bloodshed.

Surely five council members is a Tyrell Flush. Tyroyal Flush?

I mean, everyone underestimated Wyman Manderly before the revelation of his plot in Dance.

"Renly is unfortunately killed, probably by Brienne of Tarth"

Genius or not, the perception that the Tyrells are ruled by women are undermining him in the eyes of his vassal - Randyl Tarly - who may be one of the "friends in the Reach" championing (f)Aegon's cause.

Mace didnt refuse Tywin on his own though. At first he was seriously considering saying yes, but his mom the Queen of Thorns stopped it by saying Cersei was "too old and too used"

Smart or Dumb, you gotta love him! He's so unassuming and goofy that I can't help but admire him, especially considering the schadenfreude world he lives in

I like to think that he's made aware of and is actively working WITH Olenna's plans, but that he ultimately defers to her guidance. A competent lord who is powerful due to the resources of his region and not selfsabotaging, but I'd hardly consider him a political mastermind.

Him standing around at Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion was 100% a power move. He, like Tywin, weren't interested in chosing any side except for the winner. It kinda goes to show how Robert and even Joffery were right. Overall, one unified Westerosi army is what's needed for their nation to truly thrive. Less infighting, more advancements in society, tech, etc. They're not loyal to the King or Crown, its their own self interest. They're all basically "kings" of their own Kingdoms, albeit they're more like "Petty Kings" compared to the one High King, which was often a Targaryen.

The man spends his time doing what he likes, and spent a bloody war camping out and feasting. Sounds pretty smart to me!

cant wait for the mace tyrell-jon connington interaction

I think Mace is supposed to be a criticism of people getting the credit and reward for things just because they're in power rather than the actual lesser-known people who are responsible for those things

He's definitely an effective facesitter and planner for reasons people have already commented. 'But what about Olena? She says he's stupid!' Well yeah, but that could easily be her being a grumpy old woman whose son isn't do exactly what she says...or it's misdirection maybe, and she's a pulling a Doran/Oberyn esque misdirection where the rose hides the thorns. Other people point out his saying what Robb should do when he was cut off from the north is stupid...but it's then moreorless what Robb ended up planning anyway.

I actually like the concept of Mace Tyrell and his Mother being a lot more coordinated in their plotting than we are led to believe. The fact that Mace, one of the most powerful lords in the seven kingdoms actively encourages his Mother to talk shit about him at Court to make his opponents underestimate him and House Tyrell in general despite the fact they have the largest army as well as wealth second only to the Lannisters is such a GRR Martin thing to do.

Secret genius or not House Peake is better they would be running The Reach at Peak Performance

As a sub to both channels loving these collabs! Hope to see more of them in the future as you guys have great chemistry

Big Brain Mace, the only lord in Westeros with velcro shoes.

Personally, I don't think of Mace as a huge moron; he's most likely just airheaded but competent enough to not do stupid decisions (like banning beets)

This dialogue format is so much fun to watch ! Another excellent video

It's pretty intriguing how Tyrrell in recent era being portrayed not bright while the past era as the steward they are epitome of bright mind

I watch every video you and Fantasy Haven upload. I especially like these team up videos!

Interesting topic. I love Alt Schwift X and Glidus' take on this in one of Glidus' streams discussing ASoIAF theories. They theorized that Mace wore a massive helmet to protect his giant brain. I suspect he could be the Darth Jar Jar of Westeros.

i love seeing you guys collab! great video!

Mace Tyrell will become King in Winds of winter

Great collaboration! Love learning from these wise guys!

Interesting video. I side more with Quinn on this [9:30 - 10:04] but fantasyhaven's presence was a fun addition and thank you both for your efforts on this video 👍🏾

He's still alive is what he is. And that's a win

To both of you, good work. However, I have to disagree about Olenna being part of the assassination of Joffrey. Other than Littlefinger's word, there is no proof. Show Olenna clearly did it, but as mentioned in this video, the risk that Margaery would drink the poison instead of, or along side her new husband, was too great for Tyrell involvement. The rest of the analysis was spot on and makes me wonder about Mace's role.

Great video indeeed thank u

I love your videos- also the tyrells I really hope they live

Actually a very interesting take on anoften overlooked character, and some convincing, well thought-out points.

I missed your last sopranos post so here's a couple: What kind of animal gets poisoned at his own wedding? Quaithe, Daenerys... she even exist? In this house Lomas Longstrider is a hero. End of story!

Another great collab video. Would love to see you guys do a livestream with InDeepGeek

2:28 I smile ear to ear, listening to that. Really King Who Cares. STANNIS!!! STANNIS!!! STANNIS!!!🏇🏇🏇

Unironically the best dad in Westeros.

Mace the Ace!

Not saying Mace is a genius - but he ain't dumb. With fortunes changing with the shift of the wind in GoT, and impulsive people dying quick deaths, I can why moving slow is the best strategy. There's a reason why the turtle won the race over the hare.

Hell yeah, more Quinn, and with Fantasy Haven too! On a side note, when do you think WOW is coming out? If it ever will?

I never thought he was an idiot, just pompous. On top of all the points others are making, when we see him organize troops to march on the high sparrows i got the impression that there was serious military coordination and discipline by their lock-step formations. I know Jaimie rolled his eyes at the “madness has had its day!” Speech, but i liked it, and personally i think that his flattering and arrogant personality detract from the perception of his logistical mind.

This theory (though I'm not sure if I believe it) would make Mace a reflection of Littlefinger, in that instead of just the in-book characters all being fooled by him, we the readers were fooled. Both use "feign incompetence" to trick people into trusting them, Petyr coming from small beginnings and Mace being an Oaf.

I felt the air quotes cmt energy before you explained it a second later lol

Mace Tyrell is the George W. Bush of Westeros.

I mean whether it was Mace‘s or Olenna‘s doing, the Tyrells definitely played their cards right, and have managed to benefit massively from the Lannister‘s self-sabotage. Yeah, sure, being Lords of the Reach is a pretty good power base, but you don‘t win the Game of Thrones by default, and what is won can be easily lost. When the events started, the Tyrells were not in a dominant position among the Great Houses. Careful maneuvering or not, their side lost during the Rebellion and despite Robert being pretty cool about it, his time on the throne was very much marked by the Houses that won him the throne: Baratheons, Lannisters, and Arryns or their Bannermen dominated the government and Houses Stark and Tully undoubtedly still had personal ties to Robert. When it came to war, it was always Eddard and Stannis that Robert turned to. So that was the Situation before the clash of kings. At the end of it, the Tyrells have almost all the power in King‘s landing. And I don‘t think you can chalk this up to sitting things out or winning by default. The War of Five kings is a fairly complex political and military conflict, on par with the 30 Years War, or the Sengoku Jidai. You don‘t win at those just because of luck or you happened to have some power before. Look at how the Tyrell‘s erstwhile allies have fared: Renly is dead. The Lannisters imploded. And the other contenders for the crown have also fallen. The Starks, Tullys and Baratheons are basically removed from the political map and their holdings given to other houses. It doesn‘t really matter who is the brains of House Tyrell, they clearly outplayed their rivals. And they can still come out on top later on: if Aegon‘s campaign is successful they are perfectly placed to ditch Tommen and offer to wed Margaery to Young Griff. He gets King‘s Landing without lossesnand Mace‘s Grandchildren still end up on the Iron Throne (if not for Daenaerys etc). I think one thing that stands out about the Tyrells is that, like Eddard‘s and Doran‘s families, they stick together. The Tyrells don‘t sabotage each other like the Lannisters and Baratheons, they play on the same team the whole time and don‘t lose sight of the big picture over petty grievances. Imagine if Tywin or Stannis had a gay son, the resulting generational trauma would have been visible from orbit. But not everyone is like that: Loras gets to do his thing, his relationship with Renly leads to a pretty good political alliance for them; Renly can‘t marry a dude, no problem for Mace who also has a daughter, Renly can marry her as a beard (and for heirs) and everyone is apparently happy. No one getting traumatized, murdered in the toilet or framed for regicide. Everyone gets to do their thing. I bet if Mace had a dwarf for a son who happened to be pretty good at this politics thing, his family would not have ended up trying to murder him.

he just doesnt want to die

i'd say he is cleverer then he looks or lets on, waiting at Storms end and sending a force under Randyll Tarly to chase Robert out of the Reach is a good move, he loses little, makes himself look loyal to crown by sending a army to stop Robert, and yet by simply laying siege and allowing feasts and tourneys outside storms end if the rebellion wins, then he hasn't pissed them off by killing the new kings brothers and taking Storms end. He also is wise enough to suspect Robert Strong and is able to correctly realise if he sends all his forces to the Reach to fight the ironborn, take Dragonstone and march on Aegon, then his daughter will be defenceless and likely her trial will be rigged, so he makes a smart move to vow not to go unless his daughter wins her trial, thus ensuring if Cersei or the faith try anything he's got a big army able to quickly take the city. But he's still not that bright, nowhere near Olenna or Tywin.

Let's go

I burst out laughing at 3:40, the idea of Mace just being afk for 20 years is so funny

I am sure George is frustrated that five books in and he didn't had a single Tyrel POV or a scene in Highgarden

First time seeing Margaerys depiction by artist TheMico. Goddamn.

I does seem like Mace & the Golden Roses are experts at ‘unmerited’ advancement. The effect seems to be that objection to their newly acquired primacies is never widespread.

Mace is not a mastermind, but he definitely is not dumb. The resources of the Reach make them the most essential kingdom and he uses that as leverage when needed. His army is massive but he never sends them to fight in conflicts that have little to gain. His sons are in very important positions, his daughter is queen, his mom has all the resources in the world to scheme and plan. He 100% puts himself in situations to succeed. Olena may be the smartest Tyrell, but Mace is definitely not some idiot. He very much could just be a himbo spoiling his kids, but he comes out favorably way to often to be dumb. People don't fail upwards that often in these books and when they do its almost guarantied that their shortcomings will be revealed. Again, I don't think he is some mastermind, he definitely acts goofy and can be slow on the uptake, but when there is a conflict, only Mace comes out better than they went in with.

👍

I really like house Tyrell, I expect that they have a good ending in the books, not like in the series

Well well well! I came into this happy for a new video and ready to laugh! Now I have a new found respect for Lord Mace! Mace the MF Lace! Geez

It's a bit of both I'd reckon

The best friendship in the fandom

Mace is the epidome of circumstance. He was born in the right place with the right station with the right name. He never did wrong, while simultaneously remaining unremarkable. Murphies law dictates he wins through established advantage, rather than skill. The man assumes his success and seems innocent to the benefit of those more devious around him who keep him in their best interest. The man lives a perfectly cultivated life.

Probably by Brienne of Tarth? But we were there, man, we were there in Catelyn's head!

Same vibes as Little Carmine being a secret genius. The sacred and the propane!

It would be great if you make a video about the Brienne killing Renly theory

Good luck at Law School! I hope that you have time to drink some fiercely strong cider with your classmates ;)

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. He's not a supergenius, but he's not an idiot. He got some lucky cards and played them adequately. I do think his mother is the "woman behind the man", but he's wise enough to listen to her and maybe plays up his own stupidity a bit.

Honestly Rhaeghar should have commanded Mace to lend him Randyll Tarly and parts of his forces when he and the Dornish army was marching through the Stormlands towards the Trident. That would have tipped the balance in his favour against Robert, the garrison in Storm’s End were not strong enough to mount a counter attack against even 1/4 the power of the Reach, so it was dumb of Rhaeghar to leave all these soldiers at Storm’s End doing nothing. Also the most advantageous marriage alliance for Daenerys would be Willas Tyrell when she returns to Westeros, because as Petyr Baelish said if you’re going to fight Lannister you want to befriend Tyrells. Of course this is assuming that the books follow the show and have Margaery die at the Great Sept of Baelor.

“his family is strategically placed” his daughter a prisoner of the faith, and his son fighting for his life in Dragonstone (if the news are true)

He's likely not moving very fast against Aegon for the same reasons he was slow against Robert and in the War of the Five Kings: he's leaving the possibility of a new alliance open. Aegon is unmarried. Margaery is only betrothed to Tommen, not yet married. Lannisters are dropping like flies in the capital, and the most powerful Lannisters are currently in the Riverlands subduing a guerilla band of outlaws. If the winds change, Mace can secure an alliance with Aegon via Margaery and throw open the gates to the Golden Company. It also happens that his unwed eldest son is close in age to the unwed daughter of Doran Martell. This is a bit of a stretch, but could the friendship between Oberyn and Willas have brought the families closer together, only keeping up the appearance of being bitter rivals to throw off their other enemies?

In a way he might be like Littlefinger. Everybody percieves him as a non threat, but his plans are more detailed than they seem

Mace wears all those enormous hats to hide his big brain

if mace turns out to be a genius, i will immediately assume that willas just pretends he cannot walk

Olenna is his mother how could he not possess some low cunning

Honestly I'm convinced the mace Is very slow but it always works out in his favor and he easily has the strongest hand in westoros rn

A genius playing as a fool in the chess game of life.

He is a dark lord of the siths, just like jar jar binks

The battle of blood might end with Willis dying at the burning of high garden while Garlen joining the kings guard only to die in a trial by combat .

Yeah, Mace telling Tywin ""F*** No!" No one wants to risk marrying that psycho of Cersei

I don't think he is a genius, but i don't think he is stupid. He might be smarter in a way that Westeros doesn't value in the hyper masculine environment, like for example managing resources, something that from what we knows he does masterfully to win without losing any of his soldiers. he seems smart enough to surround himself with a great council, the ability to listen to others opinions especially for someone that has grown with such privileges is telling. And even as a battle tactician sure he isn't the best of the best but the siege of Stormends isn't far off from Tywin capturing Kings landing just less risky and cruel, and in nearer times he did pretty much correctly anticipate Robb's action if it wasn't for the red wedding. Overall to me, with my 21th century mindset, he sounds better than many praised lord, he doesn't spill unnecessary blood, he values resources and listen to advices. He might have done nothing of fame in 20 years but the reach is thriving under his rule and all of his children are respected, popular and with their own talents. I'm sure Olenna might have something to do with it but an elderly woman can't do everything, plus it really doesn't fit with what the Tyrells approach seems to be, the Tyrells are portrayed as being the other side of the same coin of the Lannister with a major difference being they trust and love each other, they aren't a one man or woman show like the Lannister, they work together. Olenna as this one and only all mighty figure that fandoms lobe to portray her as in the family to me simply doesn't fit, so yeah Mace to me simply might not be the best at those most obvious expected things

Dont know about the books but the show did that man dirty.

To be fair Tyrells became a great house of Westeros thanks to Targaryens so it would be logic if they supported them during the Robert Rebellion. On the other hand, the Tullys didnt doubt to side with the rebels despite Targaryens being their main benefactors.

Randal tarley is one of maces bannermen so yeah he did win

So i want to make it clear Olenna deosnt head Tyrell family She specificly complains how is Mace idea to make Margery Queen And Loras who make the plan to support Renly She dint like neither of these ideas , yet she could do anything becase is Mace who is the lord D and D really make Mace idiot and give the impression that Olenna rules the family why nothing can be futher from the truth in the books This changed is also seen by show scenes between Olenna and Tywin , why in the books is multiple times mentioned that Tywin is having dinners with Mace and nobody else , except one time with Oberyn ( man who Mace hates)

does Mace know about The Sacred and the Propane?

Mace as a genius is hilarious. Cheers guys!