Is There Truth Beyond Science? | John Lennox & Larry Shapiro at UW Madison 

Just listening to this. I’m a scientist with questions upon questions. However, Mr. Lennox was far more persuasive.

John's quote of Bertrand Russel is right "on point". Self-contradictory statements. This is very much like Carl Sagan's, "The Cosmos is all there is or ever will be", is not evidence based reasoning, thus, by "science", he does not "know" this to be a statement of fact. He's merely stating a belief which is not scientific, or even reasonable. This forum is a wonderful pursuit.

Glad to see Veritas Forum back after a 3 month break as it were. Glad to see Professor JL too.

John lennox is a gift from JESUS CHRIST.

John Lennox's explanation of Bayes' Theorem was amazing. I would love to listen to his math lectures.

I don't know what makes Lennox Lennox, but he's extremely sharp in cutting the arguments to the core. Excellence incarnate.

I always hit like before he opens his mouth,he is brilliant,God Bless you all.

I feel no waste of time listening to veritas forum... especially, Dr. lennox's speech inspires me so much~

John Lennox is a Genius.

Two gentlemen sharing mind-works with amazing dexterity. Beautiful demonstration of sharing world-views.

The older guy is so convincing in his opening monologue! The young philosopher wasn't at all.

One of the best respectful and non antagonistic rational conversations on this matter and well represented from both sides. This dialogue should give pause for thought to both theists and atheists as both professors present practical and thoughtful inputs to the debate

As a Christian with an open mind I was looking for a good argument from Shapiro similar to what we have heard from Hitchins and Dawkins. What a disappointment. Sorry Larry. You are not a good ambassador for atheism. Lennox so thorough and convincing as always.

Apparently Larry Shapiro forgot about the atheist gunman who killed college students by first asking if they believed in God, and then shooting them when he came up with his opening dialogue.

Since Prof. Shapiro believes in tolerance, does he treat his dissenting students with tolerance or does he flunk them if they disagree with him?

This was the most peaceful debate I have ever listened to even though this forum wasn't a debate.

I am a little pussled by Larry believing in objective morals, that there are some things that are really evil/good without imposing God as the best explanation. Firstly, if you believe that a objective moral exist, then you acknowledge that it is authoritative and independent of social/human opinion. You can only be held responsible, if there is an obligation bestowed upon you. If there are no obligations, then how can anyone be held responsible for breaking any moral law? To whom/what objective reference, will they be accountable to? A moral law can only come from a moral lawgiver. The best explanation for a objective moral law, is that objective moral values, reflects God's character. Evil is therefore violation/rebellion against God's character. The will of God springs from his character/essence which is the foundation of all moral values.

56:42 that is correct, professor Lennox is right. He's quoting prophet Isaiah chapter 53.

Really saddened to see the younger be so unconvincing, was expecting much better, he was full of contradictory statements that lack true thought.

we were worms, and we read the bible, and we became living souls

Truth is the logic that is always absolutely right, regardless of the physical world, fact is what happened in the physical world, and ‘real’ is the case that truth or fact reveals as it is.

[Fact, Reality, and Truth] ‘Truth’ is the logic that is always absolutely right, regardless of the physical world, ‘fact’ is what happened in the physical world, and ‘reality’ is the realization of truth as fact via materials. So whether it is truth or not is a matter of whether it is always right regardless of the physical space and time, whether it is a fact or not is a matter of whether it happened in the physical world or not, and whether it is real or false is a matter of whether the alleged fact is revealed as it is or not, that is, whether the truth or fact is hided, masqueraded or manipulated, or not. As a truth-performer, I want you to try to use them as accurately as possible. OnCharm Lee (Author of the Book “Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process”)

That time your stoked for a Veritas forum expecting an atheist to say something interesting or on topic................... still waiting.

Lennox has SWAG! Love the way he thinks.

1:17:00 - And Larry argues against his own belief in objective moral values and duties! Incredible the regularity with which atheists do this...

Larry has never met Gary Habermas’s minimal facts argument on the resurrection of historical Jesus! If you’re faith in the resurrection of Jesus needs some strengthening look up Gary Habermas.

Also saying you believe in God and actually doing what God says are two separate things. Which no one (and as far as I know Christians believe this to be especially true) completely does.

God want us free...the lack of empirical evidence...is the best gift...

I don't believe in a painter because even though I see the painting I have never observed the painter, and so there is no 'evidence' that a painter exists. How smart of this atheist.

The Texas Church shooter was an atheist, however, I believe most Christians assume everyone is made with a God conscience, along with a moral compass instilled by God. So everyone, therefore, knows right or wrong and can be good moral people even if they are atheists: however, as GK Chesterton pointed out when cross examining the works of Frederick Nietzsche that if anyone truly, honestly, believed in whole adulterated atheism and (key point here) followed that view to it's crescendo that you would either go insane or become morally lacking in every regard. Atheism, ultimately, undermines humanity.

44:13-46:53. ABSOLUTE OWNAGE.

It amazes me when people say they lack a belief in an unobservable or that which can't be seen There's so many things having to do with science that are unobservable. But they do not keep people from believing in them or hoping them or thinking that they exist because of other theories and hypotheses. But if you haven't pursued God's nature you can't say that he's unobservable it's simply denial

KEY point Shapiro made, the THEORY of evolution. It is NOT a proven fact. It has never been observed.

Does anyone have a link to the full video of the last interview where he's talking about making your bed and climate change?

[What You Need to Understand for Your Ultimate Truth] The limit of all of them is that they do not know exactly the followings: 1) the physical world that we feel as the five senses is finite, incomplete, always changing, temporarily existing, very passive and relative, and so secondary or posterior. 2) There certainly is a prior world of intangible reasons (eg. mathematical and philosophical logics) that transcends these temporary physical worlds, whose properties are diametrically opposed to them and are always right to the secondary beings. 3) Life is an intermediate being between these two worlds, whose body interacts with the physical world and spirit interacts with the reason world, while the soul leads the body, and thus the greater the soul, the more active in spirit and the larger (more spacious and longer) lived. So they all do not fully understand the worlds of material, life and reason/truth. not comprehending the following things: what are the properties of material or matter? How are the laws of physics and universal constants determined, and what are the difference from the truth? Why do the changing laws of physics contain unchanging reasons? How is different between fact, realization and reason/truth? What is life different from substance? In detail, how is thought possible in life? what is consciousness and intelligence? what is soul, spirit and mind, and how are they different? what are desire, will and activeness, how do they occur, and how do they work? what is virtue/goodness, beauty and truth, and what is their relationship to each other? why does truth never change, and why does it appear anywhere anytime in the physical world? why do people say that the world of truth is the world of God, that God appears everywhere alive without death, and that life is large and widely alive if it knows a lot of truth? what are the basic attributes and the ultimate state of ethics and morality, and why the life need them? and what are sin and responsibility in willing life? I realized all of them as a whole without any gap and contradiction, and I live now only freely and peacefully without any desire, fear, worry, doubt or pride. OnCharm Lee (Author of the book “Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process”)

It's good to see 2 men dialogue without hatred for the other or the others beliefs. I find Richard Dawkins to be an absolutely hateful creature. Dr Lennox treats him kindly.

[God never desires sacrifices, adulates, or prayers from human beings] Human beings have so far misunderstood God. The right god certainly exists. This correct god never desires sacrifice, flattery, or prayer from man. The right god is not lacking or personality to desire them. God only wants humans as secondary beings to realize everything properly and to be faithful to the right life. Don’t privatize God.

Love himmm

Larry Shapiro seems like a nice enough guy, and he actually does not come across as a pompous know-it-all, which I always find to be a relief in the world of atheist debate. Even so, he seemed nervous and ill-prepared to face John Lennox, even in this relatively casual talk. He cited sources he could not always remember, made the common error of bringing up assumed Biblical inaccuracies by believing the Gospel accounts being written many decades to hundreds of years after the fact by "superstitious strangers", and incredibly suggested that miracles would have to be commonplace in order for them to be proven as miracles, a point I found to be awkward, odd, and completely off its meaning on what miracles actually are. Lennox countered the arguments with ease, as I have seen him do many times. The point he made from an excerpt in Shapiro's own book regarding an event involving Caesar crossing the Rubicon, which was written down about two-hundred years after the event, yet he believes that source to be reliable, was sheer genius. He was so charming, intellectually, emotionally and mentally stimulating--as always--that he was formidable just by showing up. He was gracious as usual, but had a couple of tongue-in-cheek moments, including mentioning that two of Shapiro's sources were involved in religion, one was found to be unreliable by most scholars, and another disagreed with Shapiro. Also, the team hat was a nice touch. :0) He did, however, get a little overexcited and began to talk over Shapiro a couple of times. The moderator was great with keeping order with all of that. Lennox did apologize for some of his mistakes. Unfortunately, Shapiro's best argument was also his worst, because he started off by saying that strong beliefs in supposedly rare events, such as ultra-rare diseases, must have very strong and accurate tests to measure them, but as to the potential application of beliefs painted in the most negative light--albeit understandably--given in regards to how these beliefs affect other people's rights, he flubbed big time on that, too, for bringing up abortion, which quashes the rights of the smallest citizens. In the end, even he admitted that science cannot answer all of life's questions, and he does believe in morality, which also falls outside of the scientific realm, which he admits on and off. Kudos to John Lennox, awesome Scholar, Mathematician, scientist, bioethicist, and person. Props to Shapiro, too, for agreeing to civilly discuss the issues, and, in fact, disagreeing with his atheist contemporaries about their lack of respect with those who hold different views than their own. I hope Shapiro's gentle approach catches on.

The answer to this question is so obvious to me that I wonder how anyone could argue from the contrary. I am not surprised however, in fact it is exactly the kind of presupposition that I would expect the naturalist to adopt in an attempt to justify their position. The surprising part is that they believe it is a philosophically defensible position to the point they would attempt it in a debate. What does this suggest about the Atheist then who seem so brilliant in some regards and yet simultaneously, so monumentally dense? God said that all mankind was evidenced by way of their conscience and the very created order itself and when they hold this truth in unrighteousness, God himself gives them over to strong delusions. There is still time to repent and turn from your wicked ways and turn to Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life!

Jesus is the name of the Lord †♥

42:00 - Clearly Larry believes both in truth and in objective moral values and duties. But these views are in conflict within his own worldview...

superb

24:22 you just contradicted yourself, just a few seconds before you said that there is no empirical evidence for God, as if God were a contingent being. That's the error most atheists incur in.

I have a question for people of all religions, there are currently over 4000 different religions in the world today, what is it that makes yours the correct one?

On the whole, I'm in agreement with Mr. Lennox, but as for whether or not the universe is a closed system, (obviously unprovable either way given how vast it is), it would seem that the idea that matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed is pretty dependent on the universe being a closed system. One new text tells us that there are seven Superuniverses, with millions of local universes in them, each one created and controlled by a Paradise Creator Son and a Universe Mother Spirit. It goes on to say that not all of the local universes exist yet. There is creating yet to be done. When a local universe comes into being, they bring with them a relatively standard amount of matter and energy. That would be the 'not closed' part of the system. But we have yet to detect any new universes coming into existence, like one moment a section of space is empty, and then suddenly there's a massive gaseous cloud there. Would it even be hot enough for us to see?

Shaphiros opening statement is an exercise in violating the law of non-contradiction for Stalin and Mao were atheists and both murdered millions. Likewise, some have murdered vast multitudes in the name of God or some faith system. This seems to say both atheists and deists have the same core problem of total depravity or as the ancient writer stated--"there is none righteus, not even one...." But it is also true that most atheists and deists are not as bad off as they could be and they thus practice things which are relatively good because they both share a common origin. This of course is the fact that both, although greatly marred by sin, are made in the image of God.

53:30 who’s the guy on the far left telling John Lennox to calm down.

*Whose* truth? Truth for whom? *Whose science *Of_what*?

[The truth, God, Natural Law and Relative Value: the truth is never the same as the physical law or the relative value.] The physical world is constantly changing and temporary. The universe in which we live is opened in unity, and thus all the physical entities in our universe are constantly changing and transient. Reason is always right, regardless of the existence of the physical world. Reason is logic that is always right even if there is no physical world as well as a person who thinks. (I call the reason world as God-world.) The existence of the physical world and all the phenomena that take place in the world are instances in which the reasons are temporarily realized by means of material. Any physical or natural law, which is the causal law for the changes in such a physical world, is not the reason itself. But the laws of the physical world about such continual changes contain internally reasons like mathematical logics that never change. I call those reasons realized in our universe as truths. (We may call the truth world as God-world.) As long as we feel and think only of the phenomenon of the physical world, we cannot see any absolute reason or truth but we can only discuss the relative values as each physical entity.

Truth and science? Science deals with facts, not truth. Truth is a value judgement. Philosophy and religion deal with truth, like love being the greatest power...

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.

1:23:08 the flying spaghetti monster would be a contingent absurd being not even in the realm of science. Another ridiculous example from Shapiro.

Shapiro's comment about the aliens is too silly and ill intended.

Why is it so hard for atheists to realize GOD used scientific materials for creation? How can they not understand intelligence from a creator?

Are Wednesdays left handed? Why do all elephants read the London times in Chinese, are some other asinine questions that can be posed as clickbait.

how can seemingly brilliant people believe in a 2000yr old book from anonymous writers?

I don't think I'm a BAD person. No idea what he means by bad. If by bad I assume he means not beneficial (which just means bad), then I wonder what transcendental basis he has for his morality. If your view of morality can be eventually (meaning the absolute source of view) traced to the personal preference then he isn't bad in his own mind, but then neither is the member of ISIS who doesnt think he is bad for selling children as sex slaves.

Science is just describing what God is in and created.

Shapiro opens with irritating snobbery. I haven't watched all of this yet but I think it's safe to say that I will remain entirely unpersuaded regarding his world view.

IF GOD IS BEYOND SPACE AND TIME THAT IS THE SAME AS NOT EXISTING AT ALL .

55:39 Shapiro's arguments are so ridiculous...

wouldnt even agree there being truth in-science, taking it as philosophically-serious as it somewhat is presented in the title. science is more about scientific (the integral word) insight and collected data, which may turn theory one day - whith basically the only truth happning being the claims of honest approach by the scientist corresponding to what could be called reality, or being, to use a more philo-term.

This atheist is one big contradiction

There are many truth science is the tool that is used to unravel them

The scientific study of the crucifix fish proves the crucifixion. Look up "THE CRUCIFIX FISH - WHAT THE CRUCIFIX FISH REVEALS"

Lennox pointing out that science does not know how or why gravity exist is profound. There are just as many, if not more, "assumed" beliefs in science than there are in Christianity. Shapiro continues to make assumptions base on his atheism while saying God has to be proven by science. Our moral conscience alone shows God's presence. God's Word will stand for eternity.

Resting upon these 2. Intent, based, and foundation. 1st. Love God so we may know why we are given science nor technology is for 2nd. Love thy neighbors as thyself truly without ceasing but delight. Is like why do science nor technology? Is like how can you and me show off to God without our neighbors. Thy intent and foundation of thy actions. HOSTS of YESHUA Jesus will look at. Is like are you doing science and technology for our innocents youngs sons and daughters upon all the tribes of judah. The HOSTS of YESHUA Jesus delight hearing the laughter of our innocents youngs sons and daughters. Nothing more innocents. Noone will enter in. Unless you and me have to be a Child by choice indeed. Be a child beloved. Sincere conversations with God comes with sincere answers beloved. Likewise with foolished talk. Will be measured indeed. Truth and peace be REUNITED. God's Will be done upon all the tribes of judah and upon all dry GROUNDS nor the world. Intent and foundation. YESHUA Jesus. Why give life and take it away? Why make comments nor do science and technology for what? Your intent. The tree produces fruits can be eaten or spit out! Be a tree that can be eaten including science and technology. I wonder how the world will be beloved. 1st. Love God 2nd. Love thy neighbors as thyself. Intent and foundation. Beloved consider this Will of God. Fruits can be eaten beloved. Thy own life is indeed worth asking why? Why give life and take it away God? Remember sincere conversations comes with sincere answers. Do you blame a man who looks at you? Who is worth more than anything nor everything that exists! All things that exists God made just for you! Therefore you are more beyond valuable! Nothing is wasted but increased beloved. Truth and peace reunite. Judge not yet ye be judge beloved. But do judge the tree by it's fruits! Is like if God comes to you hungry? Can thy fruits be eaten or spit out like the fig tree. Fruits with no taste! Be cast out! Science nor technology or what ever. Can it be eaten. Different kinds of explanations. At the end is the explanation can be eaten for our innocents youngs sons and daughters. Or kill our neighbors. And brings tears to my neighbors. I don't need to see my neighbors being killed. Just to know what evil means. Beloved seek the kingdom of God and its righteousness. Foundation 1st. Love God 2nd. Love thy neighbors as thyself truly without ceasing but delight. Judge the tree by it's fruits beloved. Also acknowledge the HOSTS of YESHUA are the RESTORER and will bring what is intended according to God's Will. It's a privilege indeed. Humble to washed our neighbors feet. Likewise able to bound giants by their hands and feet. Loving one another beloved. God rather not wants sacrifice but for me and you comes to repentance by choice indeed. To BECOME alive again. Why talk at all? By the attributes of God! Comes with sincere tears, conversations and REPENTANCE with God. Pure in hearts. We are more than able. How much is thy breath is worth? Can't talk without life. Now, same you did not put the sun nor stars and gave thy life privilege to experience life. To define. By becoming a child.

1:06:34 that's the Muslim attitude.

[Evidence, Reason/Truth/God World and Physical world] There are two types of evidence, physical evidence and logical evidence. You should not believe in physical evidence alone. Rather, physical evidence is temporary and logical evidence is more certain and permanent. The problem is that the illogical imagination or fancy created by people arbitrarily is called as logical. You need to know that the physical world itself as well as the many facts that take place in any physical world are the temporal realizations of reason through mediation of material. I call the world of reason that exists even without the physical world as the God world, and the reasons that are realized in our universe in among countless reasons as the truths. In reason there are pure reasons that are not realized in our universe, nor in any other universe. OnCharm Lee (Author of the book “Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process”)

Larry Shapiro has scarcely opened his mouth before he starts playing the victim. Sort of sad.

Mr. Shapiro …why to involve in this conversation FOX or politics…..it looks that you run out of arguments.

Until people understand that Christ IS truth they will never understand. THIS IS NOT ABOUT CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS. Jesus is the way the truth and the life and no man can come unto the father but by him. This is about God manifest in the flesh to teach us about himself. Perfect love perfect self-sacrifice with a plan from the foundation of the world to redeem mankind back to himself, duping Satan who did not realize that Resurrection meant a new creation that Satan could not touch. It is beautiful. It is elegant. Everything in creation was made by Christ for Christ and through Christ and in this creation he is king of kings and Lord of lords and there is no other. He is the alpha and the Omega he is the first and the last. He is omnipotent omnipresent and omniscient. Who was and is and is to come. Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father the risen Savior and we will one day be like him, in the resurrection of the body.

Shapiro is a lightweight in comparison. Science has pointed towards God and away from evolution.

Larry just does not get it and that gets in the way of his understanding. He's looking for natural reasons for supernatural occurrences and cannot see evidence known to be true and Dr. Lennox brought forth. John Lennox missed some opportunities to clarify, but still in the end, was quite a good defender of the faith.

Colbert=

No.

20:30 - Funny, but the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Why would you take the word of a bunch of thieves and liars and murderers and rapists if they tell you they are Christians? Many of them probably do believe in the existence of God... but even then, a majority believing that God exists doesn't tell you anything about what they believe about God other than that God exists. As for WHY Larry believes that life actually has value or that objective moral values and duties do exist... He left those blank, as so many of those who 'lack belief' in the existence of God but can't justify the beliefs they do have, do. Anyhow...

No disrespect, but after listening to quite a few atheist response to the Bible and Christ, it’s hard to take most of their arguments seriously.. The people who wrote about Christ raising from the dead were also martyred for their belief, and some of the people who read about what happened were also alive when I the events were reported to have occurred, so they could have easily investigated to see whether or not the claims were true.. Science is a method of observing the natural world, and it is based on verifiable truth. But science as a philosophy requires faith.

If you expect God to appear as a burning 🔥bush in order for you to believe ...you loosing the whole point...Gods ultimate gift is his empirical lack of evidence...that what allows free choice... Looking empirical evidence, for God is a loss cause,and thank God...imagine if we can observe him or her it's morning...

His epistemology is kindergarten stuff...

VARITAS means TRUTH, yes?? But what sort of a TRUTH do you expect from an atheist whom you invited to your University Forum on TRUTH - to mean YAHWEH's TRUTHS??? It's a bad thing to invite that atheist guy! What were you expecting to learn from that atheist or what do you expect him to learn from the discussion?? BAD IDEA!!

Larry comes across unfortunately as far more driven by his beliefs than hevis aware of. Some statements - something improbable does indeed need more evidence, however statements stating that miracles are a violation of nature is plainly untrue. A miracle (unexplainable event that can not be reasonably expected to occur based on normal observation) can occur when more information, for example, is entered into an existing system without that injection of information being observed. Science sees this all the time within quantum mechanics, etc.

The new answers book 2 p. 70 says "DNA is so compact that a one square inch chip of DNA could encode the information in over seven billion Bible's." The complexity of DNA and irreducible complexity SCREAMS out intelligent design. THE reason why people don't wanna believe is because they love their sin and so they wanna suppress the truth of God, Romans 1:18-22 the Bible says "The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools." Verse 28 says "And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind." It's funny when bringing up the fine tuning argument that the atheist says to the Christian that "well, most of the universe is not fine tuned for life", well in the context of the fine tuning argument as evidence for intelligent design, the Christian doesn't care if most of the universe isn't fine tuned for life, because the argument applies for here on earth and atheists have to make the logical fallacy of jumping into another context of where the Christian isn't attempting to even go because the Christian doesn't need to. There are actually a number of scientists with PHDs in astronomy astrophysics and geneticists who believe in God. And A few reasons why when liberal "scholars" attack the Bible I don't take it seriously, Liberal scholars once said that king belshazzar never existed in Daniel 5 then they found archaeological evidence that he did, the same with king David, German scholars said the Gospel of John could not have been written as early like Christians believe but the manuscript fragment p52 proved those "scholars" wrong. Bible critics use to say that Moses didn't write the first 5 books of the Bible because writing wasn't around back then but then they found the code of Hammurabi which proved that writing was around hundreds of years before the Exodus. For years, critics said that the name ‘Canaan’ was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible but the finding of the ebla tablets proved them wrong. Bible critics use to criticize the story of Jesus healing a man by the pool of beshsaida because that wasn't found at that time, the pool but then it was. Bible critics use to say that the hittites never existed then certain things things were found like the hittite royal library. The reliability of the scriptures transmission was also secured when they found the dead sea scrolls which contained books of the Bible that were over a thousand years earlier then the oldest copies that they had at that time. Sir William Ramsay proved Bible critics wrong on a number of things about the Apostle Luke's writings in the Bible and proved Luke was accurate on what he wrote. Scholars at one time were skeptical of Luke being accurate in referring to Lysanius being the tetrarch of Abilene around A. D. 27. However, the credibility of Luke’s gospel record continues to be reinforced by archeological discoveries. An inscription was found on a temple from the time of Tiberius (the Roman emperor from 14 - 37 AD), which named Lysanias as the Tetrach of Abila near Damascus, just as Luke has written. "The Popular handbook of archaeology and the Bible" Page 181 says "Today nearly 100 Biblical figures, dozens of Biblical cities, over 60 historical details in the Gospel of John and 80 historical details in the book of Acts, among other things, have been confirmed as historical through archaeological and historical research. Moreover, the Israeli Antiquities Authority has over 100,000 artifacts [discovered in Israel since 1948] available on their data base." Also the New testament even non Christian scholars will admit that it's the best attested work of antiquity out of all the documents of the ancient world and we have more evidence for Jesus then anyone else in the ancient world. 2 Peter 1:16 says "We did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty." P.S. Jesus said "So it will be at the end of the age,the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire, in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:49-50. Jesus also said "You are my friends if you do what I command you." John 15:14. Jesus taught that the only way to be saved is to choose him as your Lord and Master, repent and believe that he died for the sins of his people on the cross see John 14:6.

Why do you bring a Jew on and pretend he is a neutral intellectual? Its tiresome.

John Lennox liar for god.