Joseph Smith and Treasure Digging | Ep. 1575 | LDS Discussions Ep. 01 

"It's easier to FOOL people than to convince them that they have been FOOLED." (Mark Twain)

Listening to Mormon Stories helps me heal from childhood trauma, even though I am not mormon.

I just want to vote yes for continuance of this series. 😊

Never-Mormon but I really enjoy listening to Mormon Stories! Love learning why Mormons believe what they believe. Can't wait to learn more!

I like how the guest, "Mike", compares Mormonism to a life-long treasure dig towards the end of the podcast. His point reminds me of a quote from the RU-vidr TheraminTrees, "The shrewdest fraudsters don't sell us fake medicine for real aches and pains. When our ailments persist, the game's up. The shrewdest fraudsters sell us fake illnesses and imaginary defects. Then the game can endure for a lifetime." This quote is shown at the beginning of his video "imaginary defects - when dogmas label us flawed".

Haven't been a consistently active member since I was about 20. The doctrine never left me and has kept me captive and wondering "what if it's all true" or "what if I really do end up being cast into outer darkness" etc. It wasn't until January of this year (12 years later!!) that I've even allowed myself to explore "anti-mormon" discussion. What was so profound to me in this episode is the disclaimer that this discussion and the presentation of this research is NOT an anti-mormon echo chamber but rather a compassionate effort to create INFORMED CONSENT. That is not something gifted, especially , to those who were baptized as children such as myself. Especially being the oldest of 6 girls. Not being baptized wasn't an option. I had to "set a good example" to my younger sisters. This is a line of thinking that still traumatizes me today. My life nor my choices could never be my own. Anyways, thank you so much for this content! I am looking forward to learning more and HEALING.

Thank you, Jenn. Your disappointment and outrage are exactly what a lot of people have felt finding out about all the lies

I love the personal, emotional clarity Jenn brings to the discussion. It is priceless.

I can’t begin to say how much this all tears me apart. Every new revealed fact about Joseph being a fraudulent scumbag makes me wish I had never heard of the church…much less been born into it.

I am not Mormon but I am fascinated by religion and cults and I absolutely adore this channel. Thank you for telling the truth. I love how John gets so excited he totally nerds out and I am here for it❤🤭

Johns "waiting for the live to start" expression gets me every time hahaha

I've seen most of the LDS Discussions videos, and I'm going back through and starting from the beginning and going chronologically. I just want to say that I really appreciate this research and these discussions. I don't think the discussion is always 100% wrt being unbiased and dispassionate, but please know that John, Mike, and co. have encouraged me to ask questions I never thought to ask, that have dug into doubts that I pushed away for many years, just like what is described at the beginning of this video. I'm commenting here because I - twenty-something, she/her, RM, BYU alumna, never married, haven't been to church since 2018 - broke down in 2022 and admitted to myself that I'm an exmo in all but name. I contacted a trusted TBM and told her what I was going through, and asked her to promise me that she would not tell her family or anyone in my family that I had essentially left the church. I then asked her if she'd be willing to go over some church history and gospel questions I felt like I couldn't discuss with anyone else. Among those topics was polygamy-related subjects such as Fanny Alger, and treasure digging. I'm a data scientist by education and profession, and so I fixate on details, citation, and the validity and presentation of data of all kinds. On the subject of treasure digging, the most that we could agree on was that the research is hard to find (as in, I struggle to find primary sources when I go looking for them, as I continually run into BYU or lds.org thinkpieces and outdated academia instead, which shouldn't surprise any of us). Mike, I appreciate your efforts to include snippets of primary sources in the video and especially in the essay on your website. I found myself wanting more cited primary sources, especially with quoted and summarized historical research that doesn't seem Joseph Smith-centered (like the reasons that treasure digging failed, for example). What frustrates me is how apologists and the church at large rely on the difficulty in finding primary sources both to deny ugly alleged truths, to obfuscate facts, and to enable themselves to quietly claim no fault when misinformation about church history abounds. This is a particularly strong frustration for me because the trusted TBM continually encouraged me to stay away from discussions such as this video because of the lack of properly cited information. But from what I've been able to stomach of Fair Mormon discussions, their own information is also sparsely cited, and the sources are also not reliable. I felt seen when Mike talked at the beginning of this video about wanting to use good sources, because church apologists tend to use poor ones. I feel the same way and it makes me wish that more of us had the time and resources to construct academia-worthy arguments of the sort that apologists claim that the other side doesn't have, when apologists themselves don't have it either. It kind of drives me crazy how poorly-documented and sparsely-digitized church history really is..... because if it was, a data scientist like me could easily trawl textual data, create models, create visualizations.... The other conclusion that myself and my trusted TBM could agree on was that if the treasure digging SCAM - the scam, specifically, knowingly done and perpetuated by JS - is true, and IF it is ALSO true that JS is a prophet, then it must needs be that JS was a very messy and imperfect person as well as a prophet. This is also frustrating to me because that ends all further discussion of the church being true, since every single negative point can be met with "JS was imperfect AND a prophet." And so then what is the point of searching, questioning, and praying? It creates a compelling character at the center of a relatable narrative - a scammer, liar, and thief who IS chosen by god, who turns around and has to convince the world of a true supernatural thing, like the archetypal drunken priest or pickpocket turned believer (I read a LOT of fantasy novels, lol). But the church will never run with that picture outright in everyday sunday school until maybe someday in the future, when they're backed into a corner that they won't be able to get out of otherwise. My trusted TBM is much more knowledgeable of church history and doctrine than the average TBM, as is her husband, and their conclusion, as well as my previous seminary teachers and knowledgeable TBMs like them, is just that. JS was a true prophet, AND he was imperfect and an "unreliable narrator" of sorts. This is why TBMs can know this lesser-known information about JS and church history, and yet not have their faith shaken. It's damning, however, that this above all is what makes the church seem so unshakably true to TBMs. It's impossible to use even an avalanche of negative claims as a means of disproving the church because the church spins the fallibility of man and their records as a means of kicking up just enough doubt to make individual members feel guilty for their own doubts. They'll never find the treasure, but if they don't find it in this life, it'll for sure be in the next one. I love the heart of Mike's discussion here - the principles of treasure digging are the principles that keep butts in church pews. Promises forever delayed, that don't need to ever be fulfilled. This hits close to home because one of the main things that drove me to finally questioning the church was me feeling that I had exhausted all my resources and energy is trying to gain answers to my prayers, to no avail. I think the most frustrating thing of all is that I don't think anybody in the modern church is "in on the grift." Which throws more doubt on whether there ever was a grift in the first place. My trusted TBM talked with me about how she wishes the gospel weren't taught in such a way that testimonies rely on JS and the BoM (which is a WILD thing to say when you think about it). But it really kind of DOES, when you start really looking into church history the way Mike has done. Forgive these ramblings - it helped to write it out, somehow. Thank you for all the work you do!

"Mike" with LDS Discussions is doing incredible work. He fills a need of someone putting in massive work WITHOUT compensation. I have 0 issue with getting paid to bring value to the world like the Open Stories Foundation and others do, but talk about another testament hehe. Great job Mike! Thank you for bringing your A game and giving the apologetics a run for their money (no pun intended). I look forward to watching your future episodes

I'm so grateful for this amazing series. Thank you Mike and John.

I am going back to the beginning to review. This is an outstanding series. I have learned so much. Thank you. I knew so little even going on a mission. I was in leadership and thought I knew a lot. It is great to have this resource.

This was a quality discussion. I tried to correct Ann Stoddard on a few things relating to JS's reputation, but to no avail.

Excellent!👏 Excited to hear more from Mike, who is brilliantly organized in his approach. Love the visuals. Gerardo is also a very knowledgeable co-host. "The covenant path is a lifelong treasure-dig!" 🤯 Jenn adds heart and empathy. ❤

I loved the way that this episode was laid out. Exactly what I was looking for as a transitioning Mormon. Going through all the rebuttals everywhere else were overwhelming and just everywhere. (Fair Mormon especially, because they are trying to hide everything still, I’m sure) and Mike’s research was perfectly laid out and so well said. Love the slides. Thanks you guys!!!! Love Mormon Stories.

MIKE!!! Mike gives excellent and well timed reminders that helped me contextualize JS's time period. Big thanks to mike! ❤ For example: The 1826 trail weren't prosecuting the celebrity as we know him now, but rather just another dude named Joseph Smith. (also @ 1:56:15 textbook "Jinx!" 😂 )

It’s now my journey in the fall of 2023. This series is profoundly helpful. Jenn’s tears are my tears, but we will only be strengthened by the truth. I thank everyone contributing to the knowledge here from the bottom of my open heart.

Loved today! Mike’s work is huge and easy to join the dots! “More please?!!!!!” Love to all from never mo Aussie

Jenn is a good fit given the sincere and serious nature of these videos. I appreciate her humility, vulnerability, and quiet honesty.

I would love to see more episodes on truth claims with Mike.

Never-Mormon here, but love Mormon Stories, thank you so much for facilitating engaging discussions and giving folks a platform to share their stories. I'm curious to know if you guys have reached out to Micah Wilder to be on the podcast, he has an incredible story of converting to Protestant Christianity while on his mission, and just published a book about it titled "Passport to Heaven." I'd love to see him on the show! Love you guys! -David Sundman (my wife Rachel and I share a RU-vid subscription).

I LOVE THIS! I really like the grouping of the evidence and the powerpoint pages with pictures and videos. Please keep these types of episodes coming!

So much good information. I love long form interviews. I put the headphones on and get so much done and learn so much at the same time. Please keep them coming.

I’m loving this so far! Please keep doing these episodes with Mike/LDS Discussions!

As an inactive member of the church , I have known for a long time Joseph Smith was a treasure digger . But , I always understood that to mean he and his friends sought out and dug for treasure . Kind of like a person on the beach searches for gold with a metal detector or how people search the ocean floor for sunken ships with treasure. I had NO IDEA that Joseph Smith was hiring himself out and peeping through his stones and claiming to see buried treasures. This totally changes my views. I feel like such a fool hearing these talks, but at the same time I can feel years of guilt lifting from me . I have felt such fear that it’s been ME losing my testimony and MY fault I no longer believe. The church is good at keeping you doubting yourself. I’ve been inactive well over five years and just now have allowed myself to do some real fact checking on my concerns bout the church . It’s been enlightening .

One of the best episodes I’ve listened to in a long time. Perfect length on episode 😀

I love how John mentioned Kara's channel name and gave her a shout out and thanked her.

Thank you all for this series! I’m going back to listen to the whole series. Very informative!

Another vote for continuing the series!

I can't wait to hear Jen's Mormon story if she chooses to share. 💕

Mike and John. Excellent work and a GREAT space provided for honest critical thinking. I appreciate all you guys are doing. Thank you. What your doing is helpful to Soo many

I can’t believe I used to do my testimony as a kid that included this conman.. wow thank you for the information ❤

I shared your channel to all my mormon friends and believe me, they are upside down...keep up the good jobs guys...you are a real BLESSING

This was absolutely amazing !! Want more 👍🏼

So much important information! Thank you LDS Discussions for your efforts.

Love this episode and the idea of the series! Yes, please! Also, the analogy of the religion being a metaphorical treasure dig was spot on.

Only feedback from me is that it was fabulous! Having text and images really helps to reinforce, and add to, the discussion.

These are great! I would recommend Breaking them down even more. You could take each aspect of these slides and done a whole in depth episode on each one.

Excellent. So well done and with such sincerity and grace.

i could literally listen to this all day!!!! i love the deep dive!! so facinating! thank you Mike, John and Gerardo!!!! this reminds me of early 'year of polygamy' episodes where lindsay goes into each of josephs wives.

I love hearing this “historical account.” Nobody really knows what the hell happened but it’s fun and refreshing! Love your enthusiasm and the how serious you all are about it! Go you!!

Great episode! Looking forward to hearing more from Mike. Thank you.

Mike did such a great job.

This was a great episode. I listened on podcasts but came here to comment that I would love to heat Mike go over the other topics in future episodes!

1:55:42 John, I think I see what you're saying about the Gospel Topics Essays being intentionally obscure, because they certainly aren't core curriculum in Sunday School or missionary discussions. But based on my time at BYU, I know there are some efforts to educate members about the essays. One of the required religion classes, “Foundations of the Restoration,” includes several of the essays as reading assignments. And I think that non-BYU young single adults get similar attention to these topics in Institute classes. I considered myself lucky to take the class from Brother Godfrey who is one of the head historians over the Joseph Smith Papers, and to his credit he did not shy away from the difficult topics and he seemed very sympathetic to the nuanced viewpoints expressed by some students. Even so, it is my opinion that the Gospel Topics Essays do not adequately acknowledge the skeletons in the closet. This video series is WONDERFUL.

This is ironically a godsend. Thank you soooo much!!!!

Definitely a good discussion that I’d like to hear more of. My donation just processed and said it just needs to be verified on your end.

The Joseph Smith Foundation is amazing. It was founded by James Stoddard III, my former MTC teacher and onetime coworker, before he went off to do the foundation work full time. I think of anyone in my life, James was a spiritual giant, showing more devotion and faith to the church and the words of the prophets (his favorites were Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Ezra Taft Benson) than anyone else I knew, and inspired me to get books by these prophets and study them on my mission. So when I experienced my faith crisis a couple years ago, I reached out to him and bought a few of their faith crisis books. The gist of the books were that Leonard Arrington deceitfully gained access to the church archives and then managed to convince some leaders to put him in charge. He produced a history book that did not go through correlation before publication and was deeply troubling. He was completely responsible for convincing church leaders that the Salamander Letters were real. He spawned an entire generation of "progressive" historians who are telling a completely different story than the faithful narrative that Joseph Fielding Smith produced, and now, even after Arrington got the boot, the "progressive" historians have fully infiltrated the church history dept. They have an entire book on the Seer Stone vs the Urim & Thummim, taking place in a courtroom setting where they weigh the evidence of both translation tools and show that it was clearly the Urim & Thummim that was used to translate the Book of Mormon. What I'm not sure of is how they were able to square the idea that Russel Nelson demonstrated the translation process using a stone in the hat in a video. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and an unbroken line of 'prophets, seers & revelators' came all the way down to Russel Nelson, then why doesn't Russel have either the discernment or direct revelation from God to know that Joseph really used the Urim and Thummim? This ultimately led me to reject the logic in their arguments. If modern prophets and apostles can't detect and root out false doctrine, then they're pretty useless. My absolute favorite work of Hannah, is her research into why Joseph Smith's polyandry was not only ok, but expected! See, much of Joseph Smith's life mirrored God's life. When Mary was on her way to visit her cousin Elizabeth, God met her, was married to her and then impregnated her with Jesus! And there's a historical account of Joseph teaching this! ldsanswers.org/how-could-joseph-smiths-polyandrous-marriages-be-explained/ The comments at the end are amazing too. So many people felt the spirit confirm the truthfulness of this account!

Very fair, clear approach to this subject. Thank you! To be continued!

Thanks so much for this, Mike & Gerardo & John & Jenn. Setting the topic in the magical worldview of the time, and breaking down treasure-digging into its component parts, suddenly illuminated for me why there is such a "salvation by works" aspect to the church, and that the work is actually not the hardest part: taking the blame is.

I love this series! And I love the long format.

Maybe this is weird, but I'm hardly even sad about Carah leaving. I love her and her stuff. She was great before, during and I think she will be great after her time on Mormon Stories. Same with Mormon Stories. I love Jon, Gerardo and Jen. They will be great together. The only thing I'm sad about is the suffering that seems to be happening.

Jenn's perspective is so perfect for this series. Love her and proud to be a MS donor!

Yes I want to see Mike more often, thank you!

The pyschopathic leaders of this cult are so heinous and cruel!! Jen is right. It is very emotional stuff!!

You're so right about creating a library of truth claims. The internet is going to bring down mormonism and scientology. They've always told members not to watch or read things that are contrary to doctrine, but I don't see young people obeying as much.

This was really Interesting. it explains so much of how this religion began and continues. It is always your fault things didn’t work out. You are never good enough. You didn’t pray hard enough. You had bad thoughts. The list is endless.

In history 1:56 it says "I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger." Is that not Joseph denying being a treasure hunter? I don't see how the LDS church could affirm he is a money-digger and affirm History 1:56. Does money digger have some niche meaning that's different from treasure hunter, or perhaps they think he's not hinting at the "prevelant story" just being a rumor?

Treasure digging reminds me of today's MLM's. Especially when you hear Benjamin Franklin's quote about it.

This episode was great! The stories are interesting and they're what got me hooked on MS but the truth claims series will be a nice mix of subject matter and I personally am more drawn to this type of content (but please don't stop doing the stories either!). The length was also great in my opinion. An hour isn't enough time to really dig into anything but four hours is a bit heavy. This is good middleground.

Damn. I already miss Carah. 😢 She was the light that drew me to Mormon Stories.

listening to this now in november 2023 and hearing john say "even if this ends up being like 40-50 episodes" lol. 46 so far, lets see how many more they do.

Contrary to what Mike says, Dan Vogel does not suggest that that Constable De Zeng's bill for "10 miles travel with Mittimus to take him (Joseph) was to "effectively kick Joseph Smith out of the county and take him to Joseph Knight's property." Vogel's opinion is that after the hearing at which Joseph had been found guilty Joseph unlawfully left the county and traveled to Joseph Knight's home and that the "10 miles travel with mittimus to take him" was for De Zeng to travel to Knight's home in Colesville to arrest Joseph and bring him back to South Bainbridge.

Great episode. Cant wait for more truth claims episodes.

Bless you all. Thanks for literally helping me piece together the puzzle that is Mormonism. I've been able to heal and establish a proper relationship with religion in respect to my relationship with our Creator. Thank you!

It just now occurred to me something that was said several times in lessons about tithing. The gist of it was, "don't you think that GOD could just show the prophet where a vein of gold was located." The idea was "God doesn't NEED your tithing. YOU need to obey." But, now that I think about it, it also had the faint aroma of Joseph's historically-documented treasure digging.

As an ex-mormon, I am bummed that when I was a believing mormon and ordained to the priesthood, I was not given my own personal seer stone. /s

The part about the Salem dig is fascinating because it not only shows that was Smith still a treasure digger at heart, but it implies that he was a _true believer_ in his brand of folk magic. The church, and by extension him personally, was in dire financial straits. As far as I know, and as far as you all described here, there was no rational possibility of this trip fixing his problems--no secondary scam where he actually profited from the failure. Running off to Salem to find a hidden treasure only makes sense as a remedy for his money problems if he sincerely believed that a) buried treasure is real and that b) he actually had the ability to find treasure that no one else could. It's an interesting window into his mindset.

Perfect everything. Can’t wait to hear more.

I haven’t been a member of the church for around 4 years. I ask myself how did I ever believe any of this?!! It’s so far fetched and out there but that is all I ever knew . Thank You for this channel,’

When you present this factual history to most TBMs, they say, “all those people who testified to that stuff were just trying to destroy Joseph’s character. Satan was against him from the beginning and tons of people made up lies about hjm”. When people don’t want to open their eyes, they will justify or excuse or disbelieve anything and everything Joseph ever did that is not faith promoting. Sooooo frustrating!

I don't know if it was specifically covered but according to Wikipedia, "D. Michael Quinn has written that Lucy Mack Smith viewed these magical practices as "part of her family's religious quest" while denying that they prevented "family members from accomplishing other, equally important work."" Sounds like similar to the Ben Franklin quote

Good luck Carrah! Jen you are a beautiful woman & Herardo is awesome!

When I read diaries of family members who joined The Church in the very early days in New York it is mentioned time and again Joseph Smith's personal charisma. It was Him as a person that sold these ideas. One of my ancestors refused medical care and would only see these kind of mystical practioners (he also had 32 children but never more than three wives at a time was the joke). I think you could see that with John D. Lee and into these modern times with members who favor oils and alternative medicine. This is a part of who we are as a people and we should stop pretending otherwise

I just want to say I completely agree with the comments near the 40 minute mark. I've been out of the church for 5 years afer being a life long member. I sucessfully ignored the truth for most of the time. I only started to examine the church more closely after spending time learning about scientology. The first mormon stories episode I watched was the Mike Rinder interview.

Great episode! Thank you. I kept thinking of the Liahona at the start of the book of mormon and how that also connects to this early peep stone folk magic. In terms of feedback, i love the content. I would say there is a fair amount of repetition and beating a dead horse. But, that also could be a function of multiple presenters discussing and digesting the info in real time. So, you know, it's probably fine and possibly unavoidable. Again, great information.

This was great. Not too long, however long it takes to get the info out is good with me!

“Professor Cornbeef, what are you looking for down there; buried treasure?” 😂

It was a fun fact and a source of pride that Joseph received the plates on my birthday. I was also aware that my birthday was always on the last day of summer or the first day of autumn. I didn't put two and two together until Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. That my birthday falls on the Autumnal Equinox is a fun coincidence, but the JS side of the equation is no coincidence.

Regarding the Boston dig, there was a story titled "The Haunted Hogshead" that was described as a Yankee Legend featuring the New England cultural figure-Brother Jonathan (Joseph Smith was a Jonathan character) published in The Juvenile Forget Me Not, and The Humorist (and reprinted in newspapers), in 1830, that mentioned Captain Kidd burying treasure in Boston just before he was hung.

I respect that Mike and his family don't throw beliefs in each other's faces because that's a luxury not offered in my family. it's either you believe or you don't exist unless they're sending the local missionaries to your new house after each move.

What Jen said about victim blaming is soooo spot on and even backed up biblically with the book of Job when Job’s “friends” blame him for his suffering, all the while God said Job was righteous and what happened to him had nothing to do with Job’s lack of faith nor any fault of Job. Instead of blaming, we should be praying.

Hannah Stoddard 1:01:50 does an excellent job articulating why JS's money digging calls his seership claims into question.

Legendary episode! Regarding the Benjamin Franklin quote around the 52:00 mark - this also reminds me of people who do "technical analysis" on Wall Street to predict stock behavior. When they're right, they consider themselves to be a genius (and they are rarely right). When they are wrong, however, they never criticize the principles behind chartism. Instead, they beat themselves up because "I didn't believe in my own graphs." It's an interesting psychological concept, and it's been with us for a very long time. It is abusive when religious leaders take advantage of our tendency to cling to incorrect theories - especially if they use this flaw as leverage to guilt us into doing irrational things.

I wonder if Joseph Smith got the dog sacrifices from Indigenous people? I live in central Canada and my Cree ancestors practiced a spring ceremony of celebrating renewal to life and dog celebration. Dogs were important to community however, due to starvation and lack of food at the end of winter, they started a dog feast. It was a ceremony to celebrate a strong and powerful relationship with dogs. We see animals as our relatives and the dogs were essential in everyone’s survival. So they held a ceremony to show gratitude. Just like today when a Cree hunter takes down a moose, he lays down tobacco and says a prayer in gratitude. Then shares the food to the rest of the community.

Looking forward to more episodes!

Thanks to everyone that watched!

A lot of Americans don’t realize that we used to eat dogs. During the Lewis and Clark Expedition they ate dogs as did the Indians. That was just twenty years prior in 1802. Of note even then Clark, the Southern gentleman, would not participate and it did repulse some people. They also had a dog with them on that journey. Today we eat bacon while many have issues with swine

Mike and John you should come out with your own "Now You Know" short videos that reference the LDS discussions website for a deeper dive study

Always just great, kind, well mannered people from boss to all guests & employees that make it all even more enjoyable & real👏🏽👏🏽 kudos to the kindness to caray @nuancedhoe

it is so fascinating to learn about what actually happened 200 years ago and how it has impacted my upbringing. I really appreciate this resource and that it is given for free. Much cheaper than the LDS churches 10% lol

Thanks Mike for your work !!

I just love the episodes with Jen. She really seems like such a beautiful person.

Oh my. My favorite BOM story was the stones that the brother of Jared had God "illuminate". Clear to see where that came from.

That was amazing!! So informative!

LOVED this. Would like it to go a little slower pace. More! More! More!!!

I’ve listened to several of LDSdiscussions. This one nails the coffin shut. I should have listened in order 😂😂😂