The Excommunication of John Dehlin Pt. 1 - Bishop James Stephenson (5/1/2012) | Ep. 1264 

John's honesty in this convo is heartfelt. For another believer - the Bishop - to ask the questions as he is, made me feel anxious listening to this... No one should be alloted this "power" over another in judgement.

I realize this video is old but sir, you have such integrity to be honest in this meeting. Idk the whole back story here bc I'm a newer watcher but i genuinely can see you're a man of integrity which is rather rare these days.

IMHO, most interactions with leaders, local or otherwise, ought to be recorded.

Recording conversations with leaders is fun! When they say that they never said some things during the interview, you can play them their own words and enjoy the most futile gaslighting attempts in human history.

In the first interview the Bishop was so worried about John not being at Church. It is not the Bishops business. Going to Church is a personal decision that I make weekly. I am held accountable to Jesus Christ for my actions and decisions. One day Christ will see my heart. I want him to see I went to Church because I wanted to. Not oh, you only went because you were afraid of your family or Bishop. I am so thankful I resigned my membership. Jesus gave us his gospel. I do not need Joseph Smith or the LDS Church to save me. Jesus did it all. Thank you John for the years of videos. Your videos lead to questions and the research I do afterwards is up to me to find the truth. Love other peoples stories on how they ended up leaving. Your so compassionate to your guest and have a great understanding because you went through it yourself. Keep up the great work.

John, this was really difficult to listen to. Brought back memories, for sure. My heart truly ached for you during the interview. Your Bishop was pleasant enough but how he couldn’t hear your love for the church in your voice was incredible to me. I had a Bishop interview me, and basically he wanted to know why we weren’t coming to church. I asked him “why would we come to a church where no one talks to us”. I think he was shocked and we started getting home teachers after that.

Just heartbreaking the way you were treated, John & Margie; I was outraged on your behalf. I imagine many others have been treated this way but didn’t have the ability to shed light on the interactions. Thank you for sharing!

I love that I’ve found your channel as I love listening to smart, kind, thoughtful & humble humans. Tks John for sharing your story. From Perth West Australia 🇦🇺 🇺🇸 ❤🙏

Wow it's been 5 years. I've been a silent listener/observer for about as long John. I've never been LDS, but i was briefly married to a member and I actually had a testimony (after praying if the church was true!). I've truly truly enjoyed your podcast. Thank you for the love, support and KINDNESS you and your crew given the interviewees!! I can't imagine how painful the excommunication process is.

I'm an ordained minister, and if were to call on someone because they hadn't been to church, it would be purely to make sure that they were OK; that they weren't depressed or struggling. It would never be to make it clear that skipping is not OK -- as though they were being called into the principal's office (even a compassionate one). The bishop kept saying "I haven't seen you, so I was concerned," but it was clear that his concern was only secondarily your well-being, and primarily your orthodoxy. Not cool. I am thankful that so many religious leaders (at least the ones I pal around with) do not subscribe to an orthodoxy model, but a pastoral model. I see my role as being to serve the congregation in the most loving way I can. I do try to call them to their highest selves, and to listen for what God is calling them to do. But that's between them and God. I don't have a congregation at the moment, but that is how I was, or at least strove to be, in my role. It helps that I'm ordained in a congregationalist model (where the congregation has the power, not a bishop or other church authority).

Thanks for recording them. I appreciate that. It will be interesting.

As a nevermo, I’ve been fascinated by your podcasts. I’m especially interested in this one because it’s dated right before the pandemic.

Love your courage to disclose this John, even though the thought of such a process makes my skin crawl off my body. I so appreciate all you continue to do!

John is a true voice of God/Spirituality.... please keep Mormon Stories going... As a Catholic, I can relate so well. All "religions" sadly share the same elements of control as they are created by Humans. The Creator is not controlling, and is merely LOVE 🙏❤🙏

Super excited about this! Thank you for sharing ☺️

I admire you even more now. You are a courageous, respectful honest snd humble hero

5 years! Wow, time goes by so quick when you are having fun! ;-) Thanks. I appreciate all you have done for us non-believers. I guess I need to get a blog to get excommunicated! ;-)

Thanks John for recording this! You are doing so much good for humanity! @38:40..."There's some history about the church that isn't pretty" So why question a man about his life when the church history is NOT pretty?!?....Just FIX THE CHURCH!! There is a BIG difference between "religion" and "spirituality"....spirituality has to do with the inside of a person. It has nothing to do with being inside a church, mosque, Temple or Kingdom Hall (JW) When this fact is realized then maybe, just maybe we can move on and fulfill the purpose of our lives! Thanks for your courage and boldness John! 💪 Moving on to part#2 😄

I am so interested in this. I walked out of church 5 years ago Easter Sunday and haven’t been back. The process of getting a temple sealing cancelled was enough to start me questioning EVERYTHING! They didn’t want to grant me one due to my church attendance from a cheating ex spouse.. and that’s not even the half of it. Love the punch card comment . I needed one too 🤣

Thanks for your courage in bringing these secrets to light. High-control religions need secrecy to keep their hold on people. If they’re so wonderful and hold the answers to life and whatever else they think they do, then they shouldn’t have any to hide.

Never - Mormon here. Been deep down different LDS research rabbit holes for a while now. Last night I watched You and Margie's interview by Marriage on a Tightrope, then cleansingly cried my eyes out watching Margie's Thrive episode. I never would have known this existed if you hadn't talked about it with Marriage on a Tightrope. Very intrigued and fascinated to hear! ♡♡♡

The thing that always puzzled me about disciplinary councils is they seem to throw out what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-3 - 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

5 years! Time flies by. Thank you for putting this in John. Much love and respect.

Thank you for telling your story and choosing to make the interviews public. Thank you for standing up for minority’s like the LGBTQ population that I am a part of. Thank you for all you do. I’m not Mormon and came across your channel due to some RU-vid algorithm popping it up as a suggestion and I’ve been watching it ever since. Fascinating, amazing, sometimes sad, yet such strong people overcoming incredible hardships. What you’re doing is powerful and making a positive impact for so many, including myself. You have my utmost respect and I see and appreciate you very much.

Blows my mind how "being in the building every week" = faithfulness. You have all kinds of people there every week who appear to be righteous merely by being there.

So the fact that the bishop just learned (or pretends to have just learned) about the plural marriage aspect and is so ready to dismiss speaks volumes

I'm so happy I found "your story " I love this podcast

Hi John I'm long away from the church and its still not easy after all these years. I wanted you to know that I knew Kirk Farmer from college and yes he is a wonderful human being.

The issue i always had with EQ was: even though it was billed as an open forum for men to talk about their life issues - which, faith being one of those - it really wasn't. You couldn't go off script. And that unspoken script is: "if it's not faith promoting, don't bring it up." If someone were to dare say in the middle of quorum hour, "you know.....i'm having problems with Joseph Smith right now," you'd be hushed with a nice little, 'we can talk about this later.' On and on - the church advertises one thing but the reality is different. It's not welcoming for doubters or even the poor in spirit. What always annoyed me for years before my shelf-break was on-display programing and conditioning of children. The annual primary program was hard to sit through and all these little sunbeams saying, "I know Joseph Smith was a prophet." How controversial would it be for a 5 year old to say, "i'm learning and hoping to gain a testimony and when i do know it to be true, i'll pray carefully on the choice of baptism." Simply put: everything these children say are platitudes and it extends into adulthood. It's so weird to see an adult bear a testimony about a random topic (family history) and then do the closing checklist. "I know this church is true, i know that JS was a prophet, i know the BoM is true, i know that President x is a true prophet today, and i know that families can be together forever. " Adult primary program checklist complete......platitudes are checked-off and the church remains true to those who heard it.

This is super cringe. Thanks for sharing this. I'm so glad I left the church a long time ago without this kind of grilling. Thanks for all you do, John!

There’s something just wrong about a church, any church, that demands you appear before church officials and explain to them (defend) your attendance on Sundays, your “testimony” (which is a very personal thing unless one chooses to share it), the very fact that you dare to have ethical questions on certain church edicts, and how much money you give to the church coffers. These are things a member should be able to go to church officials to help them if they choose, and ONLY if they choose. This is a supposed to be a church for God’s sake (literally), not an HOA. Ps John WAS “in trouble”, that interview was not just “checking in”.

"Utah is a one party consent state.." Me: Oh crippity crap, this gonna be good .

Thank you for sharing your personal journey with us, this must of been a difficult process for you, not easy at all! Bless you John Dehlin. I appreciate you all.

John I get the impression that you feel lost without the church , because all though you are now convinced that the church is no true you are still a true Mormon I’m sorry and sad because I know you really wanted to stay,god bless you John there are many like you who have been damaged by the church and feel that there’s no hope anymore and many have become Atheist this is so damaging. Where do we go from here.........

I am thankfull for your bravery and the fact that you recorded this. I hope it can help you and others heal since I believe you to be very intelligent+well read in psychology and yet able to be blinded by a high demanding religion, wich you stood up against. The way this bishop treated you in this recording is so unempathatic and condescending while you come across as someone who truely wants to have an honest human conversation. That took a look of courrage! Happy to see older episodes too🎉

I wish i had recorded all my meetings with my bishop and the state president. John you need to hear my story.

I should tell you my story that happened in 2013, I had to get a lawyer and they had told the Mormon church to quit coming to my house calling me on the phone and following me and contacting me on face book. I am directly related to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. It took many years all the way until 2022 that they finally left me alone.

So much pain could have been avoided.

I'm a Never-Mo and I find all this fascinating 😮

I Like you most because , your honest and I can take you at your word that your convictions are your true beliefs, I respect that , I’m 100% active but I know that I can find truth on your channel.

Thanks for sharing

John… 🙏🏽🙏🏽 thank you! thank you! thank you!! What you’re doing with these podcasts is important work! If there is a god, this IS his work! 💖

I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR THIS VIDEO!!!! I WATCHED THE EPISODES WITH YOUR BEAUTIFUL WIFE MARGI AND MY HEART WAS BREAKING FOR HER..

I respect you so much John! Best wishes to you, Margie, guests and team! You all make a difference! - Former Methodist, now agnostic atheist thanks to you and many others.

Take a shot every time the bishop says I was just concerned and wanted to see where you were at.

I'm glad you are sharing this. I find it very interesting to listen too. I have never been a Mormon, and have no family or friends in the LDS. I'm a born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled, charismatic Christian who is very interested in studying Christian sects like Mormonism or Jehova's Witnesses. I'm just sad that the Mormons perverted the Biblical Gospel in such a way that no-one wants have anything with it. And it saddens me that Mormonism hurts people so badly, they they ultimately reject God and the gospel complete. That bishop says that the difference between the LDS Church and other Christian groups is that the LDS believe that we can progress and improve ourself, where others just "become saved and go to the Lord" Nonsense, we all can and should strive with our actions to become more Christ-like. But becoming saved by grace through faith and becoming more Christ-like is two different things. This bishop should learn the concepts of justification and sanctification. I believe that once Jesus saves us, our salvation is complete and done and NOTHING we can do can help us becoming saved. But once we are saved, it is our responsibility to "workout" the salvation (works like constantly reading the Word of God, praying, spreading the good news about the Gospel, serving and loving others, be active in church, be accountable to leaders etc..) Those good works / practices are called sanctification, which is ultimately your way of growing more Christ-like in behaviour. A true salvation and true faith should naturally lead to you wanting to be in a process of sanctification. So this accusation that Mormons have against other Christian groups holds no water. The best thing a Mormon can do is to completely re-read the Bible on its own without any LDS scriptures or interpretations as if you are child reading it for the first time. Remember, it was never God or Jesus you hurt you. It was the perverted LDS church system. Jesus' love for you is unchanged. I'm sure you are familiar with Sandra Tanner and her research as well as Lynn Wilder and her family. Lynn's book "Unveiling Grace" is just incredible, because it tells her whole testimony and also show you perfectly the differences between true Christianity and the teachings of the LDS church.

Thanks so much for everything you do John! Can’t wait to listen to this!!

“I work really hard at my religion” that’s the rub right there

Anyone else uncomfortable when he says he hasn't seen him in a while and then tells him he is worried about his commitment to the church because it has been a month? Church is only once a week and it was stated that he had been traveling a lot. Seems really controlling.

This is painful to listen to. It reminds me of interviews I’ve had in the church where I felt awful for not doing what my leaders wanted because I disagreed with them. Many of my leaders have been good people, but they’re so caught up in the church that they don’t think for themselves.

The Church is unethical, continuing lies to their members, and authoritarian in their manner. You owe them nor us any apology, or even an explanation to them. I’m so thankful that your are there doing your work, and that is why I contribute to you every month.

Actual recording starts at 25:00

I am a pretty active going member of the church I enjoy Mormon stories I found out about the changes of this so-called handbook throughMormon stories how come members have not been notified of any changes of any handbook that's pretty ridiculous that I have to find out changes through Mormon stories no notifications of any changes through sacrament meetings or steak conferences at least so far Mormons are really good at keeping things in the Mormon bubble

The tithing statement was that interesting because this was even before the ensign peak release

What I heard is that you still love the LDS Church but don't believe that it is the "true" church. And you spoke the truth. Yet, this Bishop still kept you. I have said things during Sunday School, and I was verbally put down for my thoughts by some LDS members. But after the Sunday School meeting, some came up to me and appreciated my thoughts, actually shaking my hand. And when I spoke up during Elder's Quorum Meeting, I was told by the 1st Counselor "what's wrong with you". He is now the Bishop. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, I have not returned back to this LDS Ward, and have discontinued with the LDS Church. My wife and daughter also have doubts concerning the LDS Church. The LDS Church has good people, but I don't believe in everything coming from past LDS historic hierarchical leaders and the current ones. To me, the LDS Church is not the "true" Church.

Holy commitment pattern Batman!

Yikes, sounds like a creepy cultish interview! Lol. I have never been so happy after I left ♥️. I am more spiritual now than I have ever been (than when I was a member). Thank you for this John! Namaste!

This is fascinating stuff. The bishop has certain expectations of how "Good Mormons" behave. John spends the interview defending or excusing his behavior when his actions seem to deviate from the bishop's expectations. The bishop is "Good" and John is "Bad". John needs to "fix" or "redeem" himself. Don't come back until you've purged your rebelliousness. Near the end of the interview the question arises whether the bishop's expectations are valid, consistent, ethical and Christ-like. Filled with kindness and empathy, the bishop is willing to allow members to question, as long as they keep quiet about it. It goes without saying that anyone who questions the bishop's behavioral code must be a spiritual cripple, unworthy of full participation in Zion. Full social acceptance and interaction is an important restriction imposed on those spiritual deplorables, since "Questioning" is a contagious sin. Definitely no teaching or leadership positions in the Ward. Despite a valid priesthood ordination, spiritual cripples can't exercise their priesthood.

I like this bishop and also I believe he understood you

If only these things all went like this. It would be nice to thing that your clergy was as open and listening to doubts and concerns...

They let you record it?

I wonder with the new Handbook that no longer has excommunication councils, if past excommunications will be changed to a different status?

#ProtectEveryChild #MormonNoMore

The bishop sounds like a kind soul. Like you say in this interview, John, the church has so many good things about it. It taught me the value of family, being kind, generous, hard working, striving for a good career, loving others, being honest. After I left the church I didn’t want to leave the church. I still considered myself a cultural Mormon. It wasn’t until I started learning of the really egregious ways in which the church hurts families and had hurt me that I realized the dark side. I wish the church could remain intact without all the horrible shit. Like why can’t the church accept queer people and queer marriages? Why can’t women hold leadership? Why is sexuality our ultimate goal in life? Idk, just is so confusing.

Odd no prayer was offered at the beginning or end of the meeting. Usually they always want to start with a prayer to set the tone of the meeting.

I feel faith is very personal and being called on the carpet for how someone else thinks it should go is like being treated like a child called to the principal's office. The lds rules and regulations are way out of line.

the parameters for figuring out an ipad 😂 "lighter than a laptop?...so like a big kindle?"

Yep, there was no restoration, and this church is a waste of time. Bishop nailed it.

Thanks for sharing this John. I really appreciate where you were in your process and your desire to baptize your kiddo. It’s a shame that an untrained lay person is in a position to interrogate someone’s deeply personal beliefs. I don’t know if I’ll bother resigning. I’ll probably be in the chapel to support my family on Sundays. But I will never subject myself to an “interview” ever again.

Good on you John for doing this .

Runnels was a fun one...What kind of church thinks parishioners are perfect; church concel?

The church takes advantage of Bishops. It breaks my heart this bishop is here on his own time getting no compensation and has had no proper training.

❤️❤️❤️

This is so hard for me to understand, and I am trying. It didn't seem like you were talking about the same thing although you were both trying. He seems to believe the Mormons are the only one true church.

They prob recorded it too, but were so obviously wrong that their disclosing it would only play against them.

Sucky part about this is that it should be the quorum of the 12 that we need to stand before of, not these local leaders who does the dirty work for Salt Lake.

Have johns beliefs changed alot since then? I cant imagine the john delihn from today would want his son to be baptised

"Leadership roulette." I'm a very clear apostate, not only refuting Mormonism, but refuting Christianity and even the existence of Jesus as anything but another myth. But still a member of record with no particular restrictions. Being a rather old man is an advantage. They care more about younger people who are deviating from orthodoxy. More tithing to lose, more kids to lose as to tithe payers! I'm not on the radar, apparently. Until I start a blog or YT channel.

At 29:00 there is a discussion about good values. Faith and obedience were two of them. Someday I hope there is a discussion around these two things and see what John’s current view on these are. I think faith as a virtue is awful. It’s like telling people to walk around blissfully in ignorance or saying just believe things for no good reason. For obedience, I don’t think that’s a good value either. I don’t want my daughter to be obedient to me. I want her to explore herself and her mind and assess what is healthy for her. I want to come to agreements and hope to pursuance her to feel the same way logically, not because some authority said something. Conversation anyone? I’m sure a year or two from now I’ll still feel about the same as I have really explored these topics.

This cult stole my daughter and acts like they’re doing her a favor.

39:58 made me giggle! So true! Why does the church act holier than thou

Who's here after watching the bravery of Heather Gay in RHOSLC! John I'm sorry you went through this. You were grown man being traumatized by another fully grown man. I cannot process this. This goes for alllll religions = if you have your child involved in anything like this : IT IS CHILD ABUSE

Hea... man... u should have Dr. Mary Neal on your show... that would be a trip... she talks about the after life... being saved by Grace... etc... it would be great!

I honestly don’t know how I haven’t been ex’d yet. I am an actress in the sin next to murd3r field. It doesn’t make sense. I thought this would guarantee my excommunication. On a serious note I really thought I would be ex’d and don’t know how I’m not.

I'm an atheist who was raised as a Baptist in the South. So I find high-demand religions and cults fascinating because I have been observing often problematic beliefs as an outsider since I was 13. Fell into this channel recently. And it's been great. I just... in what world is saying "they're nice" in that tone not judgemental? I'm all for believing in whatever brings you comfort as long as doing so doesn't harm yourself or others. So the idea of basically telling someone that their beliefs are quaint (which was the implication) really bothers me.

I could never be part of a church where I felt I was talking to me judge mental boss! Ick!! Or to pay! Also, why do these Bishops, etc all sound like Mr. Rogers?

You are such a good guy. Who wouldn’t want you in their church?! Oh, yeah- the Mormons. Nuts.

The camera sucks.

Heartbreaking. But let’s face it: an hour with Ned Flanders truly teeters on the edge of that Ninth Circle. You even went for the substantive convo. A valiant effort, but he was not the droid you should have tried to connect with, just sayin.

This guy, at least, didn’t do anything bad that I could hear, except repeating the old “be here, or be square.”

The spying stuff is very cult-like. There's really no other way to frame it. What's that calling named? "Spiritual investigator?" "Divine Detective?"

You sounded as if you were under pressure,guess you were.🌹

18:45 wow invasive. Idk how these self righteous persons go on about honesty and morality yet they will look you right in the eye and say a boy got a good book from an angel.

I’m astonished at the good will you give people. I feel just about the complete opposite of you when it comes to people’s actions and intentions. The majority of people out there that we have negative interactions with are morally deficient. They don’t have compassion in their hearts. Most people are extremely selfish beings out to make a buck or take advantage of the vulnerable and gullible. People like Joseph Smith is the norm not the exception. People are getting better, but religion retards the progress that we make. Two steps forward one step back. The majority of people in my eyes are out to get theirs and don’t mind who they shoulder past or bulldoze to get there.

Nerdy ✅ Curious ✅✅ Ex-Roman Catholic ✅✅✅

If one changes their beliefs on religion, isn’t it best to disenfranchise first before you get expelled , then it’s not such a big deal ?

I don’t understand, I’m reading the saints books that the church publishes on their own and they are pretty open about the polygamy and Joseph smith issues. Why was this a problem in your interview?

Yikes, "We have the truth and more," "We can progress beyond just returning to Heavenly Father." Heresy. Pure Heresy. Also there is ONE mediator between God and man- the Lord Jesus Christ. Not the Bishop. And Joseph Smith was NOT amazing.

lds sounds more like Catholicism in the "bishops" and the rules,etc...

As a previous Bishop who is now on his own faith journey, I really appreciate this perspective. In my opinion, a church leader's only response to someone on their own faith journey is to express love, support, and welcome them no matter what. Come to church, don't come to church, that's your decision, a Bishop's role is to love, support, and welcome everyone no matter where they are. You don't discipline someone based on their testimony. John, your content has been helpful to me on my journey, thank you!