Just why are cyclists hated so much in the UK??? 

I could challenge everypoint here - but as an example of the sort of mentality that should not be driving two tons of steel at speed on any road.... Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Silly. Mixing streams of traffic in the same space where the vulnerable element does vastly dissimilar speed and has vastly less visibility, means that, the user of that has to be aware of their vulnerability and NOT behave stupidly. You answer ignores reality. I am a careful driver and a cyclist (though not recently ). To say I should not be driving my two tons ( for telling the obvious truth ) is so arrogant and silly, but sadly quite typical. As I say, my starting position here is that cycles are the odd thing out on the road, the one that is so dissimilar to the rest of the traffic stream. Riders of cycles very often seem to have an inflated sense of their importance and an indifference to the reality of their vulnerability. If they cycled responsibly most problems would be avoided and I am guessing that you do by the way. Unfortunately many do not. I am all for separating streams of traffic by the way e.g. trams in walled off runs, roads as biased for vehicular use and others beware, plus cycle and walking spaces built into the system where possible. Where there is sharing however, its the bike riders who do need to realise THEY are the odd thing out, the traffic stream that is dissimilar to the others, with unique vulnerability. Vehicle drivers being required to allow space while passing is a sensible thing and should be enforced. Act accord to reality, take better responsibility for your actions ( not you ) and not try to make out vehicles drivers presence there is some sort of outrage against them and the planet. Everything I said in this and my initial reply is the truth. A lot of cyclists live in la la land.

@@Fat_Cat_747 I guess there's no way to find common ground. As with everything today it's trench warfare. I'll just say as I always do...the stats don't lie.

It sounds as though you have a very limited view of cyclists. Your opinions have some validity where a small number of sports cyclists or irresponsible

Sorry that got interrupted.

For sure some drivers are very aggressive - they are the ones to keep well clear of, Dan

There are way too many inattentive, not to say DOPEY, pedestrians​@marcel-jt3dy

I might have done well to mention, the town I live in and spend most days cycling [in the Midlands] is full of pikeys. When I cycle further afield [for instance to the peak district which is more affluent with a higher demographic], people are less aggressive, more relaxed and overall its a nicer place to exist and get about [in particular on a bike]

I second the call to avoid confrontation, coming from South Africa I can tell you from personal experience that it can lead to violence or worse very quickly and unpredictably. We are completely unprotected and ALWAYS come off worse.

Great advice!

Britain was the sam,e in the 60s . .. now we have a prominent Bengali culture taking over ..its sickening .

Wis we could be half as good as the Netherlands - not sure what krishnan-resurrection is on about - if thats in any way racist I`ll delete it, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517the Dutch are just way more chill than the British must be all the coffee shops 💨

@@krishnan-resurrection714 This is just bollocks. There were fewer cars in the 60s, but there was never any decent cycling infrastructure, and what's Bengali culture got to do with the price of fish?

Since you mentioned motorways, comparing a map of the Dutch motorway network with the UK motorway network, you see that many parts of the UK don't have motorways at all, especially for moving around within the cities. The main traffic is often on a narrow 30mph surface road with lots of roundabouts, pedestrian crossings, and only one lane per direction that has to be shared by cars, bikes and public transport. This kind of road works fine as a quiet residential road but in the UK, it's typically also the backbone of a city's road network. This can make longer journeys stressful for car drivers, cyclists and pedestrians alike.

Yep, no desire at the top to stop playing us off against each other, Dan

The road surfaces are nolonger car friendly either!

@@janwilson9485I know I drive aswell!

UK is nothing friendly

Brakes

Yep, this is an odd mentality we are seeing now - its "OK" to take out a cyclist - who has this become a thing??? Dan

report the driver immediately to the bus company. Send them an email.

We never used to be. What's changed?

@@grahammitchell8524 That a good question - I`ve ridden in the UK all my life an the last 10 years have seen a big change in attitudes, Dan

@@grahammitchell8524 Money. It started back in the 60s I think. We started to become more affluent, more self concerned, less interested in our neighbours. The more we got, the less we cared about others. Hasn't made for happy communities has it ?

⁠I noticed it immediately after Brexit. It was as if there had always been a silent seething group of people who wanted ‘Great’ Britain back when you not only ruled the waves but everyone, everywhere. Being nice to foreigners, walkers, cyclists, - far too much to ask!

People have always had people who want to abuse people. The only thing that is changed is the people being abused. There are some politicians who want to single out some groups to blame so that they can distract attention from the failure of the politicians. Do not spend money on roads, blame cyclists. In the UK a large number of people ride bikes for pleasure rather than to work or the shops. Therefore there are far fewer numbers, so there is less downside for demonizing them.

@EdStraker720they were riding single file and the driver was able to pass. Much different to a slow driver where it is often hard to pass.

Standard !!

@EdStraker720 But this clearly wasn't the case here. It's not as though it was a double paceline.

@EdStraker720 I can cite many instances where drivers have driven recklessly around me and I'm the only cyclist on the road and I've been as far in as I could have possibly been. We've all got our stories! The fact is drivers need to know the road is not just for their use. Cyclists, motorbikes and horses have every right to be there too. Cars, imo are at the bottom of the list in order of importance, and yes I drive too.

Invest in a camera. The driver who told you to f*ck off will be recorded. Then report it to the police as it's a public order offence.

That would mean at least 60% of people should lose their license. I don't necessarily disagree, but it's never going to happen.

the other big problem is drivers who insist on using their phones whilst driving

@@independentthought3390i mean about 90% shouldnt be driving for other reasons anyway

@@independentthought3390 I suspect the percentage who are reckless passers to be smaller than that. I have only a few each season, not that they aren't more than a little terrifying.

@@techjunkie68smusicandtech56 That, especially texting, should result in a license suspension.

I am not sure, but I think there may be a presumption of motorist fault in France.

Cycling in France is a joy compared to the battle ground that is the UK. The infrastructure is far superior plus other motorists respect cyclists. It’s far safer.

Yes indeed. I did the cause a disservice by fundamentally losing my shit and yelling and smashing on the window of the car that had scared the living shite out of me. In my defence the scare had been really bad and the anger hit like a wave with the adrenaline hit from fear… Spent the rest of the day wanting to throw up and took the bus home… Nasty. Not fun.

Now that I've watched it I have critiques. For the whole we need LESS cars on the road not just separate car and bike lanes. What does that entail? It means making public transit between towns and cities and intercity as fully available and affordable as possible to a point it is an effective option over personal car travel. It also means ensuring businesses that are essential for people (food, clothes, office jobs, non industrial facilities) are as close to housing as possible. So it's either a train ride (for most work), a walk, or bike ride away. Make cars one option. But not the only option. NOT JUST BIKES, and StrongTowns are great channels that do better at describing and addressing the issues

@@paulschulman8131 Glad you wern`t seriously hurt - you go a long way further than I had thought about - almost a different society - I`d be happy with just a bit more of a Dutch style integration of road users in general... Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 it's a sad history (for cycling) a lot of the infrastructure cars use was meant for bicycles but the car industry did a hostile takeover and literally indoctrinated generations to believe roads are for cars and jaywalking is a crime.

@@paulschulman8131 Jaywalking is not a traffic offence in the UK though.

@@paulschulman8131 Petrochemical dollars at work... dan

Yep, its the main argument made by anti cyclists - yet every rider I know has a car and a job - plenty of tax paid there... Dan

Funny because the UK has no road tax, it's emissions tax. Cyclists don't have emissions, unless they've been eating a lot of beans before the ride. Besides, ALL the taxes paid on your car aren't enough to maintain the roads, at least 40% of the costs comes from general taxation (VAT and income tax) I pay those, why should I subsidize motorists who year up the roads with their wasteful SUVs and the construction of motorways that I can't use? Yet the idea of removing a car lane for a protected cycle lane or a bus lane that would be useful to me is scoffed at, why should their "road tax" be used to subsidize me being able to get around, they are generally too thick to realize that trains, buses and bikes reduce traffic and make areas quieter and less piled and congested, so everyone wins, drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, businesses and residents!

@@5688gamble neither does Australia, instead we have rego which is for registering a vehicle, which only applies to motor vehicles, and an alarming proportion of motorists don't even pay this.

There’s no such thing as ‘road tax’, it’s called ‘vehicle excise duty.’ Language matters and using the wrong name helps bad actors reframe the argument. The vast majority of road maintenance is paid for by local councils.

@@5688gamble trouble is most drivers don’t know this, because they are too ignorant, selfish or just plain stupid.

I live in a very popular area for cycling. I don't find cyclists rude at all. Yes, they can hold me up a little when I'm driving, but they have an EQUAL right to use the roads and it's this attitude that they are lesser road users that leads to a lot of the anger in drivers I think.

Sometimes we don`t help ourselves... Dan

I've seen that too. It causes me grief when some of the local hard core roadies do stupid and illegal things. It's gives the rest of us a bad name.

@@ChrisWhittenMusic On the other hand, I've been held up in a car on residential streets by very slow (less than 10mph) cyclists riding two abreast. I can understand more than a little frustration here. I think that's where the "as for to the right as practicable" rule should strictly apply. If I were a cop, they would have received tickets.

@@christopheroliver148 In the latest Highway Code you are supposed to overtake cyclists as if they are a car, in other words taking to the other side and f the road. I think people ride two abreast because they want to deter drivers from close passing.

I`m in love with Netherlands infrastructure... Dan

Two abreast is clearly an issue on todays roads, Dan

Thanks for that - I agree 100%, Dan

Does seem that way - though reading the comments the US face some real challenges as well, Dan

So true 🙁

I think the more cycling you do, there's more chance you'll get abuse. Just on one 90 mile ride I did yesterday I had a few close passes, and two people shouting at me for no reason.

@Markhypnosis1 in almost 20 years I have only ever had abuse 3 or 4 times verbally close passes happen I just simply try not to react to them and I'm doing about 5 to 6000 miles a year. I've been hit once car turning right across my path. A lot of it is just simply communication with drivers let them know your intentions and the odd wave to acknowledge them for waiting and never really have any issues that's it

​@@wrightwoodwork Unbelieveable. Mind my mate always said he never got abused until he found out he needed a hearing aid.

absolutely

Well put 👍

A lot of us ride well within the rules and with consdideration for others - als a lot of us don`t, Dan

100%

Your not alone - I`ve spoken with plenty of cyclists who feel forced off the roads onto pavements - good cycling lanes would really help with this, Dan

We were cycling on a narrow country lane when a school bus came up behind us. I knew it was going to stop in the next village, less than a mile further on, and as we were moving quite fast we decided not to stop and pull over. We do have a right to be on the road. But the buss driver started beeping us repeatedly together out of the way. I thought what kind of example is this setting all the children (and future drivers) he was transporting.

Most drivers don't hate cyclists, you just remember the 1% that do.

Defintely some truth there - but I like my period correct kit!!!! Darn, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 the fact that this preoccupies you enough to make the vid means you aren't the types i'm on about bud. For instance, i was riding the trails out the back of Henley Sunday so stuck the bike in the car. I was on a wide winding road with no markings but easily enough room for cars to pass eachother all the way and yet this weekend warrior heard me coming, dropped to the back of his group and then rode down the centre of the road . When they eventually pulled over, there was no wave or smile to thank any of the drivers in the tailback they had caused. I ride predominantly trails, single track, bridle paths and the odd rural road on the weekends now just to keep away from these types.

Sadly your not alone, Dan

Blimey, thats bad - I`m not too suprised but hadn`t heard to much about cycling in the US (media has it as just stunning big rides on gravel in the US), Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 I'm a roadie living in Michigan, and there are some nice roads in my neck of the woods. I don't run across that many aggressive drivers, but it can certainly ruin an otherwise nice ride when I do. Sadly these guys occasionally cause unbelievable carnage. Look up Kalamazoo bicycle crash in Wikipedia for instance. I used to ride there when I went to school, so that story hit me pretty hard.

I was just thinking the same - he's on the wrong side for the UK 🤔

Not really, it's another French Paradox. The biggest cycling events, part of the popular culture, but also many very angry drivers.

I'd say that road planners should have to ride an area a week or two before getting any ideas for grand designs too. I've seen too many changes in my local roads where cycling impact clearly wasn't well considered.

Hear hear! If you want to be respected, then you have to respect the rules yourself. I'm writing this as someone who no longer has a car but has several bikes.

@@christopheroliver148 Ah, lights... correct - we should not jump them - I do have issues with sensor controlled lights that don`t see us though - tricky, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Agree. Also given how modern bicycles have even less metal, even setting them sideways on the road will not trigger the sensor.

@@vintagevelos9517Sometimes you can trigger them by putting your shoes cleats on the signal wire line if you can see where it’s embedded in the bitumen. Works better for MTB metal cleats but the bolts on plastic cleats can sometimes work.

​@@vintagevelos9517 And I have issue with temp lights left out for weeks after roadworks are complete.

Which part of France? Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Midway between Paris and Orléans

Blimey, I didn`t know that about TT riders having to wear black - every days a school day, Dan

Sometimes less - I seem to get a lot of grief from cars on the other side of the road... Dan

It's the same in every country. Cars are heavily subsidised by everyone else.

Yep - suprised you don`t get grief riding a horse on the roads - I know a couple of horsey riders and they get a tom of grief round here, Dan

I have, there’s plenty of incidents of horse riders being killed by aggressive and speeding drivers and even a sad case in South Wales where a speeding driver crashed into a horse drawn funeral cortège in which at least one horse was killed. My wife has horses and she’s always getting stories from her friends pretty much the same as we cyclists hear about nasty aggressive or just plain incompetent drivers.

@@huwsalway4099 "there’s plenty of incidents of horse riders being killed" it was 3 equestrians (and up to 52 horses) in 2023, the highest number since 2018. On average 100 cyclists are killed every year.

Lincolnshire - another area I might have to move to... Dan

Ignoring them is the best thing to do - sometimes difficult but the best, Dan

:) Dan

Darned right - got soaked again this afternoon whilst riding - plus it was cold! Dan

Amen to that, Dan

Suprising how brave someone is when driving a 2 ton lump of steel around, Dan

Oddly a local bridle path near me is over loaded with walkers and dog walkers plus runners plus gravel riders plus horse riders - all trying to keep off the roads... Dan

Audis are always driven by a special type a c***

Spot on - I do my best to let it wash over me - imagine their blood pressure... Dan

Glad you`ve had a good experience - definatly a lot worse the nearer you get to densly populated areas, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 one thing that help also, there are a lot of bigger, faster roads in the UK that technically you are allowed to cycle on but just should and mostly can avoid as a cyclist, you don’t want to be on a semi highway anyways.

Thanks, I could live with the grief if we had less potholes and more cycle lanes - and your weather.... Dan

Until someone opens a car door into them... Dan

For sure thats tempting - would be a shame to be"driven" of the roads by drivers... Dan

So did I

Unfortunately Brexit means the rest of us are now stuck in this dump.

I'm so glad I moved back, New Zealand has some of the worst drivers!

France is a joy to ride - and the wine - and the cheese... Dan

Ah, our sensible, tolerent society... Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Nobody ever said we have to be tolerant ever. Haha

Pantani RIP, Dan

Many thanks, Dan

Fair point - I guess its the guys who almost go out looking for bad driving are just kind of missing the point of riding, anger breeds anger though evidence would be very usefull, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Cyclists who go out looking for bad driving must be a rarity, I’ve never met one. No need to look for dangerous driving, it comes to you, probably more often in urban areas than around here. What happens is that drivers don’t comprehend why bicycles are doing what they are and, in a narcissistic way, assume that cyclists are just trying to annoy specifically them. And respond by doing things to punish the cyclist, endangering them, and provoking the understandable outraged response when someone intentionally and unnecessarily endangers you. Cyclist, still upset, may post video, for various reasons. And then victim-blamers claim cyclist went riding looking to be endangered. Seriously? Motorists (and commenters lacking experience in cycling in traffic) don’t grasp how difficult it is for cyclists to see what is going on behind them. Because cyclists are balancing, they must devote attention to micro steering adjustments to stay upright (something experienced riders forget that they do!), and also scan for threats ahead. They can’t ride along looking backwards, must make do with glances. And because they use both hands for braking, they can’t simultaneously brake and signal. On a ride, I’m looking to enjoy cycling along, savor scenery, and get where I’m going reasonably efficiently and quickly (in a city, faster than a car plus no fuss finding a place to park). I WANT motorists to pass me as long as (a) they do it safely and (b) a queue ahead doesn’t make passing pointless. It’s easier to deal with their antics if they are ahead of me than when they are behind. I don’t think I’m superior to anybody, I just want to be left alone to do my thing. And I don’t think I’m alone in this regard. I resisted using a GPS computer until I realized I could lay out routes incorporating at least some low-traffic roads and have the GPS guide me along eliminating having to remember street names and peer for signposts. I’m not afraid of traffic, it’s just more peaceful (and beautiful) on back roads. I also find the Varia tail radar extremely helpful, letting me know when a motorist is approaching from behind, displaying their distance and speed - no surprises. And records passers' data every second, storing it for later use if needed. I try to make a point of waving to motorists who pass me safely (it costs me nothing). The passer may not even see the wave, it’s really for other drivers coming up from behind, so they know (a) I’m a friendly guy and (b) that was a nice pass, now they can try to do the same. I quit waving motorists by me because too often a vehicle suddenly appears in the oncoming lane, rendering a pass unsafe. P.S. I also have a LOT of miles in cars & pickups, and on motorcycles.

@@paulflory3532 I am new to road cycling and found this comment helpful. Cheers!

The Cotswolds - nice area, the GCN guys film there a lot as the roads.drivers are good - you realise you can`t ever move from that area now or you`ll be very dissapointed... Dan

Now thats a fine idea - get them to ride a stretch of A road for a few days... Dan

I actually think they understand well, but they do not care.

Man, imagine how furious some drivers would be if you wore a rainbow jersey... Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Actually, I'd expect any cyclist worth his salt would look askance at you for wearing such a thing unless you were a current world champion.

Your turn to be El Presidente - you get my vote, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Cheers, Dan.

That would be a big shame to accept that lack of infrastructure would legal drive cylists off the roads when we all know active travel is to be encouraged - cycle lanes, no matter how poor are the answer in my opinion - or maybe restrictions on vehicle size - I was looking at an Austin A35 family car the other day... Dan

Everything you said, Dan

By quite a margin the most aggresive and ignorant anti cyclist nonsense spouted on the internet comes from Bogan Australians. :-(

Yep, and we`ve really improved the roads since the `70`s... ah, nope, we havn`t, Dan

City riders are another bread altogether - and your right, 75% of my riding attention is the road/potholes just ahead of me, Dan

Its when you ride in Europe you really feel the difference and just how wrong the road system has got in the UK (or at least the South East), Dan

Spain - now there`s a thought... Dan

I see your point but thats a real shame to be off the roads, Dan

Or some fine Dayglow yellow period Mercatone Uno... Dan

I don’t think Dan’s wife was making excuses for abusive drivers so much as saying that you have to control your own mind set and not let it get to you. Of course alternative means of getting around should be encouraged and applauded not subject to abuse. But there are a lot of angry, ignorant people out there, let it go, let it go, cycle on…..

Exactly right! Drivers are so self entitled. I, like many others ride and drive and know exactly how to treat cyclists. Drivers who get caught driving recklessly or are threatening around cyclist should be enrolled in a mandatory cycling program where they have to experience first-hand how it feels riding a bike on the road for at least a month. Taking up their time and letting them experience things will make them think twice about doing it again. I guess similar to community service instead of a fine.

Yep, I think us riders taking a nicer mental attitude on the road makes difference - buts its a challenge to keep smiling and let it wash over you, Dan

I live in the East Bay. I also feel it's not that bad. I commute 4 miles to work x 5 days a week. (and back). I let cars passed me by, respect red lights, etc.

But ‘rarely’ isn’t acceptable is it? Why do people in cars feel entitled to abuse anyone?

The frustrated driver level soars when there`s two or more of you - up to a point - I note that when on Sportives drivers seem to kind of realise whats going on and calm down - strange... Dan

@@berenicebaker7191 Yes I agree. it isn’t acceptable.

Now Wales is great place for riding in comparison with a lot of the UK - though I bet its a bit tricky around Cardiff, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517anywhere in the urban areas of Cardiff, Newport and the built up valleys is still sketchy like any city, the rural bits such as Powys and Monmouthshire much better

Ah, was in France for this one - easier to talk a lot as a lot less traffic, Dan

Hmmm... maybe if the area your in see`s an increase in cycling as a good thing (cafes, bike shops, hotels etc.) then attitudes can change fast - and I think its attitudes that are the biggest issue, Dan

Errr.... its not social media, its car drivers shouting at me on the roads that shows the hate, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Ive never got that abuse before, I've been riding for nearly 14 years, im in kent

Darn, I like those 3 wished - Bikepackingadventures for President!!! Dan

Sorry to hear you`ve been knocked off more than once - guessing the caravan driver pulled in too early and swiped you? I love Strava but also love cycle lanes - I use them whenever I can but would love loads more of them, Dan

Hmmm... Murdoch.... grrrrr..... Dan

Careful he might sue you for making allegations 😂it’s what he does

Hmmm... city cycling is a different beast so no comment, Dan

Yep, thats about the level of it, Dan

a big change of attitude here would go a long way, Dan

Your a better man than me - I`m happy to get as far over as I can and love a cycle lane no matter how small it is but don`t think I`m calm enough to pull over, Dan

Can`t help but add teenagers on no-legal hi power e-mountainbikes seem to be really bad at following any sort of rule, certainly in the South East - a growing issue, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 Ah yes, the electric scooters and non-pedal-assisted bikes that go well above the speedlimit, yeah… I’m all for allowing it tbh, but, non pedal assist should be classed as a moped and need a licence. Anything under 14/15mph then fair do’s, but my god, so many people need to be educated how to use the road, not just the car drivers (and by gum that are some bloody terrible car drivers out there). I’ll often wait for a BIG space for an overtake when over taking a cyclist, as i do NOT trust the cars behind me to make the same consideration and are very likely to just blindly follow me. I like the adopt-a-cyclist / adopt-a-motorcyclist approach that only a rate few vehicle drivers take, which is to stick behind them (longer than needed in some cases) to make sure at least 1 sensible person is driving behind them. You see this a fair bit in really bad weather in europe with motorcyclists and cars/lorry’s, that will purposefully stay behind to offer them some protection from traffic that may not be paying full attention.

Good point, Dan

Hmmm.... some good points - some drivers get away with stuff that you just wouldn`t believe here in the South East - drifting???? seriously... Dan

Nice - where are you in the country? I want to move there... Dan

You’re very fortunate then!

I wish it were not so - does sound like some areas of the UK are better though, Dan

I`d go further - maybe automatic speed controls - but then again I drive slower than I ride :) Dan

No; why and how could that be?

Don`t think so - when I drive in London you see some crazy cyclists (plus very good ones) on both regular and ebikes, Dan

Ah, city cycling... no space for cyclists on the road, not allowed on the footpaths... and then we do`t help ourselves by not following the rules - though when you say "Some cyclists don't give enough space for cars to pass" I`m guessing thats not quite what you mean - cycling code is pretty clear its the cars responsibilty with a minimum of 1.5m space required for a safe pass (in case the cyclist falls off so you don`t drive over their head...), Dan

@@moneyboyok, I think there needs to be a lot better education to everyone, that we all - walkers, cyclists, drivers - pay tax for our road infrastructure. It does not belong to motorists, with everyone else just tolerated because drivers are so generous! There will occasionally be a designated cycle lane but unless it is maintained it is sometimes just a pot holed menace. I also think drivers should always remember that given the sheer power at their fingertips a few minutes ‘dawdling’ behind some cyclists or horse riders can very easily be made up.

Good observations, Dan

I wish you were wrong, but thats hard to challenge... Dan

Running really hurts... Dan

You might be onto something there, Dan

Even though I’m way too old for it I still wear Lycra because it’s comfortable, gives minimal air resistance and dries easily after a shower. You don’t give offence. Other people take it.

@@Tailspin80 But don't you think that you should spare civilised society the sight of your sweating arsecrack through the semi-sheer lycra - that's why drivers want to get past you!

@@vintagevelos9517 As an experiment, go for cycle in normal clothes - cycle-clips for the trouser are allowed!

A 1970s Raleigh Traveller 3 speed since you didn't ask!

Interesting thoughts, Dan

I think you're on to something.

Ah, I was in France for this one, Dan

@@vintagevelos9517 thanks. I love the advice near the end about our responsibilities as cyclists. I have always believed that getting along with the drivers as being the best way to create good karma between bikes and cars.

@@GeneVilleneuve For sure - most of the issues melt away if you remove the tension, Dan

Some are some arn`t - I know plenty of friendly cyclists and plenty of grumpy ones, Dan

Maybe the Dutch ones are grumpier.. offcourse I’m generalizing a bit , but as an ex runner it was one of the first things I noticed , cyclist with theire ridiculous etiquette and “ unwritten” rules …

That’s not my experience, maybe in the South East of England but in Wales where I am nearly all cyclists are friendly and acknowledge one another